Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark - “It’s Not Mom-Shaming, You’re Just Convicted.” - Daycare Truths w/ Suzanne Venker

Episode Date: July 21, 2023

BRACE YOURSELVES - We're having the daycare debate!What do studies show about daycare before the age of 3? Are breadwinning moms happier than stay at home moms? And-what if you can't afford to stay home? Alex has a convicting conversation this week with Suzanne Venker, who wrote the “7 Myths Of Working Mothers”, is a relationship coach, and host of The Suzanne Venker Show.Find Suzanne HEREGo to Nimi Skincare and use promo code ALEXCLARK to get 10% off your order. For delicious, Real...

Buckle up. This week we are having the daycare conversation, the most emotional subject I have ever attempted to discuss with my audience. Should daycare be seen as an equal option to staying home before the age of three? Is it really just whatever is best for you is the right thing? Are we doing a disservice to moms and babies by perpetuating this mentality? I've actually managed to find someone who gets in trouble for saying uncomfortable truths more often than me. Imagine that. You didn't know there was anybody like that, did you? She's a relationship coach and author of the book Seven Myths of Working Mothers, which was praised by Dr. Laura for dismantling the lies about daycare that women are told.

She describes herself as a rebel with a cause and a boatload of conviction. You've probably seen her on Fox News or heard her podcast or radio show, the Suzanne Venker show. Her entire worldview stems from this belief that women can't have it all, at least at once. but we can have much of what we want during our lifetime in increments. We're discussing the science and evidence today behind why daycare should be a very last resort for babies and why it's important to talk to young women about this before marriage or kids, not after, and even if it hurts people's feelings. Subscribe to this podcast, leave a five-star review, and discuss what you hear in the cute servitous Facebook group that's in the show notes.

Please welcome Suzanne Venker to the spillover. I've never offended more women than when I posted this sentence on social media. Daycare was created to be a last resort. That is actually totally correct. It was called Head Start and it was for low-income families as exactly as you say as a last-ditch option for. for mothers in particular who didn't have any other choice. And so that is so, so long ago. I mean, so much has happened since then, right?

And you're right to, like that was the beginning. And then now we're at the point where, as you said before, it's presented as an either or, as though they are equal choices. If you want to stay home, stay home, if you don't want to stay home, whether mom's there raising baby or not, or has substitute round the clock, not necessarily around the thought, but, you know, around robin of caregivers. Like there's no difference between the two. And that, gosh, I can't think of anything more controversial than that. And it's amazing because you have been talking about this for decades. I mean, I am young. I've only had my show for two years.

You've been doing this for decades, writing books about parenting and relationships and marriage. and all of these amazing things. And you were really at the forefront of having this conversation. But when you brought this up really 25 years ago, what was the response then from parents? So you would not have gotten the reaction

that you've gotten from your people having written that statement then. What was happening at the time was that there was a phrase called Mommy Wars and it was all the rage. That was a thing. But it was primarily between, women in the media who were leading the charge on the conversation. Of course, they'd had the

microphone and then kind of the rest of the world, right, the rest of America. And they were the recipients of this information. And then a few people here and there would stand up and say, oh, wait a minute, you know, who would be different? And what was being said? What were the media heads saying that just daycare wasn't great? No, it was exactly as you're saying now. It's just presented like it's no big deal. Like, it doesn't literally like just, you know, have have vanilla or have chocolate ice cream. There's just just pick. And so the reason for that,

that the people need to understand is that the women in the media at that time, well, the women in the media period, today included, what do you think they're doing behind the scenes when it comes to this topic, right? They probably don't have them in daycare, but they definitely are not home with their kids in the early years. So along comes a person to talk about what children need, which is taboo in this country.

if it interferes with our desires, then they get their backs up because it's personal for them. So it's completely impossible for the women in the media to be objective about it. Not possible because you're talking about something that they're going home. They're listening to you talk about this and they're going home and feeling bad about themselves. So there's no way to have an objective professional conversation about this topic with that particular group. And people kind of knew that, whereas you could have a decent debate or conversation. if you're a non-media person between moms or between among parents but of course we didn't have the internet we'd have phones we didn't have all this stuff right so it was kind of behind the scenes

at the time so all which is to say fast forward several decades and it the the media was so successful in overpowering the people like myself who were challenging it that your generation honestly genuinely believes it's no big deal. They're they're victims of this information. One of the things I say all the time when I talk about this is I'm not mad at you. I would probably do the same if I was you. You've been propagandized in a way that you have no, you have no frame of reference for it. So you just assume that it's fine. So I get that. But the reality is you're seeing results of this choice behind the scenes and nobody wants to talk about it because nobody wants to quote unquote shame, which back in my day,

shaming was kind of still allowed. But it wasn't really shaming. It was. It was, you feel bad about it because you know something's not right. And so then you do the right thing. Now that's all gone. There's no such thing as duty and responsibility and obligation and sacrifice and putting kids' needs before you. It's all about shaming you because you must feel good at all times about every choice you make. I think a lot of women who consider themselves to be conservative are actually a lot more feminist than they even realize. Would you agree? 100%. And again, not faulting them. They, don't know any other way. Honestly, 20 years ago, I was much more angry with the people who were saying,

because I think they did know more. And they were, they hadn't been indoctrinated with it. And they'd seen, it was just more, it was just a different time. But right now, I truly do believe it is completely, it's, it's, I hate to say it like this, but it's a cluelessness. And why wouldn't it be? Like, who's talking about it in a vocal way where they would even have the information, which is why I would get people behind the scenes. Oh, my God. when you told me this, it just opened my eyes. I've always felt this way. And now I know what's, you know, that's so comforting for me because I'm willing to be the

fall guy. I don't, I'm not worried about whether you like me or not. I'm worried about whether I can be helpful. And I want you to have this information so that you can't do what you really want to do with, which is for so many of them, be there in the early years. I just got back from a big work event in Florida. and someone I worked with forgot her makeup remover in skincare.

So she asked if she could use mine. And I let her borrow my mysolar water to remove all of her makeup, my Nimi skincare vitamin C cleanser, which is a very gentle exfoliating cleanser and my hydrating retinal moisturizer from Nimi. The next morning, she comes up to me at this conference and she was like, Alex.

And I'm like, oh my gosh, what? And she goes, look how good my skin looks. I am placing an order with Nimi right now. I have been telling you, this stuff is the best. Now that I'm in my 30s, I don't have time to waste when it comes to skincare, okay? If it doesn't work, I'm not using it. And I have been very loyal to Nimi skincare for years. I love that they're conservative owned, made in the USA, and feature powerful ingredients

like peptides, vitamin C, retinol, and collagen. Buy your skincare from a company that believes in faith, family, freedom, and femininity. Try Nimi's skin care. Get 10% off with code Alex Clark at nimi-skinkare.com. That's code Alex Clark at mimi-skinkare.com for 10% off. Try their hydrating, brightening, or anti-aging line today. Mimi skincare, timeless values, modern skin care. And I also want to establish that you are not someone who comes from like a long line of homesteaders and women that did not work or do anything outside of the home.

Your family is full of female thinkers, doers, actors. Activists, including a very famous aunt that all of us admire and look up to in the conservative movement. Could you talk about that a little bit? Because I think people are like, well, who is this woman who's telling me that I need to be staying home? Yeah. It is very, I have a very unusual background. So I do think that the message lands a little differently. And I talk about that extensively in my work. So the women in my family all worked and they all stayed home. How do they do that, you say? They did it piecemeal. And they understood that life is. is a long journey in that a woman's life has seasons and that children need a mom and a dad. And so there is a way to construct a life that allows you to have a little bit of this and a

little bit of that and not be inundated with guilt and stress. And that is to understand that you can have it all but not simultaneously and map out your life accordingly. And that's what my message has been really from day one. It's been framed by the media, of course, from Divinity One as this is the woman who doesn't want women to work. But she works, you know, crap like that, without understanding the nuance of what I'm saying, which requires reading, actually reading the material. So, yeah, my, so my And is Phil Schlafly is what you were getting at, I think. And depending on your age, you may or may not know who that was.

but and her mother, her sister was my mother, who was kind of the same in her own right in terms of they got MBAs, they went to Radcliffe, my mother was a stockbroker, she quit to stay home with my sister and me, ended up not going back, but she didn't have me until she was later in until she was in her 30s, so she was really odd for her day. But, and she didn't stay home in the early years. And then she, I was three and my sister was five before she came home. So I grew up hearing how much she regretted that. It's a very unusual set of circumstances for her day because she was born 1930. So she was in a male-dominated world, as you might imagine.

And so her perspective was super unique from what my contemporaries were getting. And so I kind of feel like I've had a leg up from day one in understanding stuff that the average person wouldn't have. Yeah. It also depends if your family is very countercultural or not. You know, and if they're willing to be truly honest about children and their knees and how you can best, you know, create a life that works for everyone, so to speak. Yeah, all of your books, your podcast, your radio shows, everything you do, Suzanne, really revolves around this belief that women can't have it all at once. Like you said, you do it piecemeal or you do it in increments. And then you can have much of what you want throughout your lifetime with different achievements.

Is it fair to interpret that then as you telling women that they need to be quitting their jobs and pulling their kids out of daycare so that they can stay home? So that's a loaded question only because that's so dependent on the circumstances. So in the ideal world, I want to catch people as young as possible. So before they ever get married to begin with, honestly, is the time to teach how to map out this light to make it. This is exactly what you're saying. This is exactly my. entire MO. The whole reason I do what I do, people are like, why are you inviting guests on to talk about parenting and marriage and relationships and all of these different things, you know,

before you're even at that time in your life? And I'm like, because I want to hear from these wise women who have gone through it, what we should do or not do or what sacrifices we should be making, you know, before we have to get to that. Wouldn't it be nice to have an idea of, you know, what kind of career am I going to do and how that is going to affect my kids one day? if I know I want to have kids one day, it's common sense to me to have these conversations. It is common sense, but it's extraordinarily countercultural. And it wasn't always. But it has been that way for a very long time now.

So that means the parent, usually the mother, but hopefully the father too. Because we're talking about really daughter. Well, I mean, we're talking about both sons and daughters. But for this particular issue, we're talking about daughters. You have to be willing to say unpopular things yourself as the parent. And even parents aren't wanting to do that, right? Some of them. Some of them just believe it and, you know, go along with what they hear or don't know any different.

But, yeah, it takes a lot of introspection and a totally open mind, ironically, open, open, open, to accept the realities that you may not want to hear, but that are the right thing. and to figure out a way to work around that. So, to answer your initial question, the earlier I get you, the better, so speak, because I can talk to you about what kind of career, for example, is going to work really well with motherhood. The truth is, some careers work really well, and some don't. And nobody wants to say that, because if you say that,

that means, what do you mean? Are you saying a woman should not want to be president or partner in a law firm? Or, well, I don't know, maybe not. Maybe not. That doesn't mean you can't do it and you're not capable of doing it or that you shouldn't. It means you need to understand what that decision entails and what the top of that is going to be. And nobody wants to say that. They just, they think that if you're, if you show that other side that you're holding them back in some way, because that's the cultural messaging that you're fighting against rather than just common sense reality. This is life. Everything's got its. limits and everything has trade off. So just pick the life you want. So one of the first questions I asked of women in particular is, what do you want? What do you want? It's really about that. And sometimes they get stumped on how to answer that because you really have to know what you

want to be able to map out the life. So what if they say, well, Suzanne, I want to work. I want to be a prosecutor, you know, a lawyer or whatever, but I also want to be a mom. Okay. So then I would say, well, what kind of mother do you want to be? And what do you want your home life to look like? What is climate in your home? What is the day by day, week by week, month by months, environment look like in that home? Do you want it to be chaotic? Do you want it to be calm? Do you want to be in the kitchen with aromas coming out of the kitchen because it smells like home and you have family dinners together, do you want to just use it as a place to sleep in a shower? What do you really want when you say, I want to be a prosecutor, which by the way, you know, that you do sleep in a shower and

that's it at home, right? And that's your life. There are careers that are just like that. And they're not going to be an option for you if you simultaneously want to have a healthy marriage and a good relationship and healthy children. All right. So let's do a hard truth. In your experience, are the breadwinning moms who are loaded, making more money than they can dream of, more miserable, as opposed to the moms who have less money, but they're staying at home and not working outside the home. So there is research that will tell you that, but I think that that is true. Yes. But it's hard to get that kind of evidence. So I'm, I'm always happier just to look at what I'm seeing on the personal side and what I've experienced or what I've seen. And the overwhelming answer to that is absolutely.

More often than not, there's so much that goes into this about women working because there's so many caveats to it. I mean, are you talking about working part-time, working full-time? Are you talking about what kind of work are you doing? Like I said, for some people, it works. And for some people, it doesn't, depending on what it is you're choosing. But from what I have seen, the more they're working while having kids. This is really important. It all begins to change post-kit, which is why I'm always saying the early you've set it up the better because you want to know this going in.

You are not going to look at the world the same after you have a baby. You are not going to look at your career the same way after you have a baby. Very little is going to matter to you in your heart in the same way once you have a baby. Why is that a bad thing to talk about? I'm not getting that part. it's a phenomenally wonderful life-changing, like, who would want to miss it? And why would you think of that as? I think there's a vested interest in different industries and businesses in, you know,

the corporate sphere to make sure women are not talking about it. Because if we start to admit it, if we start to admit that your priorities change and stuff, they're about to lose a lot of bodies that are making them money. You got it. And that's the ticket is that when you, talk to somebody, I just goes back to what do you want? Do you want a life that's true to what you want? Or do you want to follow a script that is literally being sold to you for the benefit of other people? It has nothing to do with the benefit for you. When you're told that this is the way you should

live and this is what's going to make you happy and you shouldn't live this way, you're literally falling for that for the benefit of somebody else. And you're giving up your own needs and desires for that so that you fit in and don't buck against. And it's, it is very hard today because to choose that route is to be lonelier because there aren't enough people doing it, you know, but there's like a lot. There's so much to this conversation. It's even harder than it was when I was doing it. Instagram has ruined dining out. Just because a place looks all cute and aesthetic, it doesn't mean it's going to be good food. Okay, I learned this the hard way. I went to the most gorgeous restaurant. Like actually maybe the most stunning place I've ever been. Ordered a rib eye, cooked medium. it was served to me beyond well done, beyond, one of the worst stakes I've ever had, and I could tell that the meat was trash too. And you know what was 10 times better? Recently, I did a reverse sear at 250 degrees on a 2-inch ribeye from Good Ranchers for 50 minutes.

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That's good ranchers.com slash Clark with Code Clark for $30 off today. Good ranchers. American meat delivered. Well, and see, now culture has really told moms, you're doing your best no matter what. No matter what you're doing. You're doing your best mom. whatever you want to do is best for you, has perverting and distorting those truths about motherhood and parenting really hurt moms? Oh, hugely, hugely. I mean, I like to talk about how it's

hurting children, but I think that's a huge piece of that because it's not just hurting children. It's hurting the moms themselves. It takes usually many years before they realize what they've given up and they're starting to deal with regret and they see the results of how. having followed this blind path going for the money, going for the career, going for this supposed identity out there in the world and giving up what's really going to matter in the end, and that is your relationships at home. And if you're not giving that time to that, you are very likely going to regret that. What do you say to the women who say, well, your mom shaming me, your mom shaming me by talking about the cons of daycare? How do you, how do you choose to look at it

that way over. I have to think about that for a minute because it's so new to my world. Like our generation did not have this shaming. Like these are phrases that are used today like they're normal, but in my day it wasn't. There is, let me put a different word on it. Let's use guilt instead of the shame for a second. Guilt because you can totally switch that out for your generation, right? Guilt is no, no, no one's supposed to feel guilty, right? Guilt has been sold by the media as something that's been put on you, that if you feel guilty, it's society that has done that to you.

That is complete crap, utter and complete crap. When you feel badly about something, it's a signal in your brain telling you something isn't right. I'm not doing something the way I should be doing, and that's why I feel this way about it. So when you drop your baby off a daycare and it's a baby and it's six weeks years old or it's 10 months old and he's screaming and crying and it's ripping your guts out and you're crying and you feel like I'm not supposed to do this

then you do it because society tells you of course you can do that if you feel bad about that that's society that's screwing with you that's not that's not that's not that's not reality then you do it and then you cry all the way back to your house and then you text your friends and then they say, oh, it's fine, you know, just don't worry about it's all good. In fact, all of that is a lie. It isn't fine, and it is telling you something that it's not time. It's not time yet. This baby needs you, and you need him or her. And that's what you should be listening to, not society. That's a real tall order to swallow. Is it a personal belief of yours that daycare causes more harm on a child before the age of three, or is it based on research. It's absolutely based on research. And besides, by the way, we have this clear now today

in a way we didn't necessarily 30 years ago. So this material is out there. Dig it. Dig for it. It is there. There is a huge group, i.e. the media, that doesn't want you to have it. So do you know that you have psychologists who can't, who have looked into this and not even been able to publish the material because they can't get through the gatekeepers to publish the material? So, I mean, gosh, there's so many stories. I remember a girl who worked in daycare for years, and then she wrote a book. I'm blanking on the name, Doing Time.

That's what she called it, Doing Time, which was pretty bold. And she had to get it out there and had to tell what she saw about what really goes on in daycare. And she got with me, and I gave her a blurb, and she put it out that this was years ago. But she got slammed, and she just kind of slithered away at that point because it was too much. There is, I mean, it is too much.

As somebody who has been on the receiving end, and I have really thick skin, the average person, forget about it. It's just too much. So, and she's just an author who wrote this book, but I mean, this is the psychologist who will lose money over publishing this material because that's how strong the gatekeeping has been.

So anyway, that, but to get to the perfect person that your listeners should know about to get the information about those early years from a more research slash statistical basis. It's Erica Komisar. You've probably heard of her. I've had her on a couple of times on my program. And she had to deal with the same stuff with the media when she had her book out a couple of years ago asking mothers to prioritize motherhood over career in the first three years. but there is ample research about attachment theory and people know it's out there that will scare you if you really throw yourself into it and so many people don't know about it

again because of the gatekeepers but the reality is that babies aren't adults they're not adults and we treat them like they're little adults and that they come into the world ready to be indombed independent and they're just not. It takes years to get to that point. And that baby needs mom and or a substitute for mom. I mean, there's orders to this, dad, grandma, nanny, daycare's at the bottom. Yeah. So there is a tier. There is a tier system of ideal versus less ideal child care. And it starts with be a home if you can. And then it's your spouse.

And if they can't, a family member, then a nanny. And then I think second to last is a nanny that is your family and like another family. And then very last is daycare. And you ask, why is that? And that's the most obvious reason is what's different about daycare from all those other options? It's a conglomerate of come and go workers for three years. And so there is no way to have the one-on-one care that baby needs. in a daycare setting.

It's not possible. It's not set up to do that, right? And then you talk about, and then politically you'll talk about affordable daycare, right? You probably heard about that for a long time. And that's an oxymoron because you can't have affordable daycare because the only way to afford it is to keep it low for parents, right? But in order to get the daycare high quality,

you have to pay three times as much in order to get the turnover to stop because that's the biggest issue with daycare's turnover, that they leave. And so once baby starts to bond with, and why would you want them to bond with a stranger, but okay, so bond starts to bond with a stranger that stranger leaves. Then another one comes in. The process starts over again and so on and so forth. And these are the years when a human learns those intangible things like love, trust, empathy, all of those things that are built into our system, they start then. And so it's really in the first few months of life, but especially in those first three years, that this attachment theory is being developed

between your baby and whoever the primary caregiver is. That means whoever is spending the most hours in any given day with your child. And so that attachment theory is responsible for how your child, even into their adult years, reacts, how they have relationships with other human beings, all these different things, the type of romantic partners that they choose, all of that hinges on those first few years of life. And what I didn't know, Suzanne until really learning from you is that it is those little moments that the attachment has really formed. The things that you think it doesn't matter who's doing it as long as it's getting done, meaning a diaper change or just giving the baby a bottle. It's those tiny incremental moments

throughout a day. It is crucial that it is you and not just anybody. They just think as long as my baby's diaper is changed, it doesn't matter. As long as my baby's being fed, it doesn't matter. It has to be you. And so that's why, like, if you're going to do daycare weekend, and I'll ask you about this, after three, you know, what are the pros and cons of doing it after three years of age? But it really needs to be you with that baby for those first three years. Well, let's put it this way.

What baby would choose anybody else but the person from whose wound he or she emerged, right? She is, he or she is naturally drawn to you. it's your breast they're drinking presumably it's your body that it came out of he he or she wants you want you want you and you are everything you are like if there was ever a time where you want to feel which is not your reason for doing it but it's just a part of being a mother feel i don't know what's the word um like bonded no like important needed yeah You're never going to get in it from any of it. There's nothing else you could possibly do that's ever going to, ever going to compare to what you will feel in how significant you are in this person's life. No, no job can give you what this baby will give you in terms of that feeling if you allow yourself to have it. And the reason why the daycare is so obviously different from the others is because of the lack of consistent care from the one person. So that's why it has that hierarchy. that you just, that I just described.

And it's common sense, really, when you think about it. Because at the end of the day, if you're bonding with somebody and then they leave, you can see how that's a problem. First of all, it's a problem even for adults, right? What's all these breakups about? We're all the relationship problems that people have, right? If it was so fine and no big deal for people that just get together and break up, we wouldn't have the problems that we have.

It's not designed for any of us to go through breakups. And that's kind of like what it is when you're bonding. And then you leave. That's another thing that the parents don't understand is that a time is of no, they have no concept of time. So when you are with them and then you disappear, let's say for you, it's just going to be a couple hours, that's like a lifetime. They don't know why you went.

They're not old enough yet. You're not developed enough yet. You're just there and you're just God and you're amazing and then you're gone. And then they start crying. The crying is because you left. And so there's no way to respond to that properly if you're not there to watch it and respond to it so that the baby learns to trust you and knows that when he's stressed, you're going to calm him. This isn't something you can turn over to hired help. It's just not going to happen.

And so daycare is almost like just, yeah, let's just put a diaper on them and stick a bottle in their mouth and run around to this one and do it to this one and do it to this. one do this way it's all good. That's all I need is to be, as you said, giving a bottle and a diaper. Not at all. That's just not true. And I'm sorry that saying that is painful or makes you feel, quote, shamed, but you can't not say something because it just makes someone feel bad. That doesn't make any sense. I mean, what would do about smoking? Should we have not told anybody about how smoking affects you? I understand. Because you feel the same way as you. I would just rather know the truth, even if it makes me temporarily uncomfortable so that I have a better life in the long run

or the people that I love have a better quality of life in the long run. But I also found it interesting that there is research that talks about how kids who are in daycare typically have exhibit more signs of negative behavior. And the reason is because they're always trying to get the attention of the caregiver

who is giving attention to 12 other kids. And the only reason they can get a reaction of the person caring for them is to misbehavior. And so that's why we see all these kids misbehaving that go to daycare. That's it. You just do a set of forming. That's in a nutshell.

Which you can see just from, I mean, a former teacher as well, classroom teachers. So between anybody who's with kids can see it, plus common sense will tell you that if you're one-on-one, just like tutoring versus being in a classroom, right? You're going to learn or I guess we'll just stick with that, learn way more than if you have. if you're clamoring for attention for somebody who's working with somebody else all the time, you're not going to get your needs met. So it's really about your needs. It's about babies and toddlers needs not being met. You are the person who told me that your baby or your toddler does not need socialization. Right. So a toddler starts to quote unquote socialize and I don't even use that. That's not even the right word at two and a half. and that's not actual socialization even then. That's what's called parallel play.

And all they're doing is playing on their own alongside someone else who's playing by themselves. That's parallel play. They don't actually interact for about another year, like actual interacting. So the whole concept of socialization doesn't even come into play before you're three and a half or four. And even then, it still doesn't need to be great. It just needs to, I mean, there's a lot of ways to do that. even if you're not in preschool, by the way. You asked it about the difference between day, I mean, the first three years and after, I think, right?

Or you wanted to get to that. Daycare is pre-first three years. Basically preschool is about four and five. And then we get into kindergarten school school. So, you know, the culture likes to combine daycare and preschool and just call it early childhood education. That's purposeful. That's propaganda. It's not early.

You're not learning anything in the first three years that is. academic. What you're learning is everything we've been talking about. I had to say a very sad goodbye to my Minute Made cranberry juice on flights. I have always ordered that when I'm flying, except that this last time I realized it is filled with high fructose corn syrup. I threw up in my mouth. I want real juice. I don't want any of that sugar and natural flavors that they pack in there. And I found the real thing with conservative-owned natural juice company squeezed juice. Family owned and grown in California, squeezed juice is 100% juice, all natural, non-GMO, no water added, not from concentrate, and is exactly like squeezing your own fruit juice at home,

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Or you can find the link in the show notes. Wait, so if your kid, if your kid is in school before four years old, they're not going to end up more intelligent. No, no, not even close. Not even close. It has nothing to do with academics. The early years of your life are all about learning how to love, learning how to play, learning how to trust, learning that you will be cared for, learning that you can bond. It's all about human interaction. That's all it is. It's all emotional regulation and human interaction. And the academics don't come into play for some time. So that's a big, perfect example of the propaganda that's people. I mean, are you going to feel shamed because I said that? There will be some. How is it shame at you to tell you kids don't learn anything academically until they're like four or five? When I talked about this, Suzanne, people were like, there's still time for you to delete this post. And I said, I'm not deleting it. I'm going to talk about it even harder and louder. We're talking about it. And you don't have to be a parent yet. This is all just

facts. There is nothing you like you're talking about. There is time. of research to talk about how the cons outweigh the pros for daycare at a certain, at certain years of life. It doesn't, you don't have to be a mom to see that and recognize it. But that's the problem is that we're not telling young women before they're going into college and deciding what I want to do with my life, this reality so that then they're like, they're shocked by it whenever they're, you know, trying to decide what to do once they're married and have kids. I don't want to end up in that boat. I'm not doing it to make you feel bad. I'm doing it so that you don't suffer. I see it all the time. This is what I do. And so if there's information to keep you from that,

why on earth would I not share it? The most frustrating thing is being told, and I keep getting told this, even by other prominent conservatives, that it is a mistake as a conservative or a pro-life woman to speak negatively on daycare, that this conversation is hurting our cause. to be pro-family. Would you agree or disagree? I don't know. It probably is hurting the cause. So what?

I mean, that's the problem. I mean, it's going to hurt any political agenda if it doesn't align with what you, if you need people to join you for X reason and somebody comes along to say something that's going to keep you from joining, well, they're not going to be in favor of that. So I'm on the side of...

They're saying if we're pro-life, if we are saying that, you know, we're conservatives and we're pro-life, and all this and keep your baby and all this, but at the same time, we're also saying, but also be wary about daycare for those first three years that we are basically cannibalizing our cause. You can't be telling women that daycare is bad while also saying keep your baby. I guess I don't get why. Why are those opposing? I agree with you because I'm like, well, there are all the, there's other things that we can be

talking about or doing. I mean, there's obviously worst case scenarios. And that's what I want to talk to you about is that, you know, there are women who say like, well, I understand, I know the risks of daycare. This is the only thing that I can do for my family. You know, so then what am I supposed to do? So let's talk about the cost of daycare. And there are, there's financial costs and there's emotional costs. And we've been talking pretty much about the emotional costs, right? By and large, unless you have, unless you're pulling in a six-figure salary, which most second-income, or not. And this is assuming, unless you're on the coasts, maybe,

and that's another conversation because you have geographical, when you talk money, you've got to talk about geography. But most of the time, people find that that second income is eaten up by child care costs, or the costs of working, I should say. And child care is the biggest component of that, but there's actually hidden costs, more costs, in living that lifestyle because that lifestyle means commuting costs.

That lifestyle means clothing that you wouldn't otherwise need. It means convenience foods and eating out, which are huge component of that lifestyle. When you add it all up, you're actually going to work just to pay for those things that I just named when you could not go to work

and omit those costs most of the time. So, technically speaking, most people don't actually take the time to put the pen to paper to actually see what they're really working for. And maybe if they come out with anything, maybe it's $10,000. And then you say, in your pocket, I mean, and then you say, well, is that worth giving up this amazing experience that will not only make my life and my family's life better, but will also make me closer to my child for a lifetime.

Do you think a majority of two-income families could afford for mom to stay home, but they're just unwilling to do so because of pride or convenience? I think a lot of them are. Yes. And that gets into a conversation not even just about a daycare or children, but also about money and how that works for us today economically compared to the way it did 20, 30 years ago and the complete inability to learn how to live on less, I guess, is a better way, but it's a sacrifice for a season in order to have this thing that you may or may not want,

I guess, Beningman who we're talking about. But if you want it, I think most people could find a way to do that. This is, oh, we're talking about married women now, right? Correct. I'm not talking about. So, yes. And again, that gets into, this is one of my favorite aspects of this, the taboo idea that you should not tell a woman to pay attention to a man's earnings when you're dating.

Oh, so you should be talking about how much a guy makes before you get married. Nothing gets me around more because the idea is that, what do you mean? I'm going to be working alongside him forever more. All my life. There's like no concept that I'm going to be stepping out and will at that point need to rely on him just for X amount of years. My whole life I'm going to be the... And of course, that's not realistic. And the majority of women actually don't do that. Married women. Married women. Don't do that.

So statistically, that doesn't even hold water. But also, it's not logical. Do you really think that you're really going to want to be working year round, full time, your whole life, despite the fact that you're going to pop out these babies? I mean, come on. But the idea is that men and women are the same. They're interchangeable. Why should a man do any different than a woman? Why does he stay in a whole life? He's staying home, blah, blah, blah, blah, because they're competing and not accepting that women do this thing that men don't, and that brings with it a whole set of circumstances that mean you need to map out your life differently than the way he does. And that's taboo to talk about. But yeah, the idea that women are paying attention to a man's earnings is a big mistake.

That's why I said, I want to always get them when they're younger so that I can tell you. Because I'll hear from them later. Well, my husband doesn't, you know, he does this or he doesn't earn enough to make, to allow it to be for us to stay home. And there are ways that in advance you can do that differently. Either A, you pick a different guy or B, you work for X amount of years prior to having children and you stop your salary away so that you can't stay home later and learn how to live on that one income so that you don't get acclimated to the two. And hello, why are you buying a house based on two weeks? incomes. Why would you do that when you? What do you say to the women who do? They're with us. They're like, I do want to stay home or I at least, you know, only want to work part time hours or drastically

reduce the amount that I'm working to stay home with my kids or prioritize my kids. But my husband is not on board. He's the one saying, you need to be working. We need your income. What should those women say to their husbands? That's a hard one for me. I can't say how much I've been thinking about this lately. That is living proofs of what damage the culture and media has done over the last 20 years because that was unheard of 20 years ago. Men weren't like that at all. And in fact, I think a lot of men, I mean, yeah, I mean, I think the whole value of what it means to create a home and to raise human beings has been so utterly devalued, it's easier for a man to fall for that message because it means because they don't have the experience. That's what I'm trying to say. They don't have typically

the experience that more women do with younger, with babies or with teaching, let's say, or with babysitting or, you know, just, you know, just they don't know babies and children as well. And so they might not know enough about what's involved is what I'm saying. So they're more prone to fall for the messaging. That's what I'm trying to say. And they have. is law the way and answer your question. It's hard. And that would have to be on a piece,

and I work with actually, I do that partly in coaching because the couples come to me for couples coaching and for coaching for their marriage or relationships, but they end up making decisions like this. You know, how could they not? Because it's related.

It's a, it's a, they have to educate themselves first on why it's important, understand what's, happened in terms of the culture and devaluing this and putting money and career over family and relationships and then sell that message to their husband. And a good way to do that is to say, hey, what kind of woman do you want to come home to at the end of the day? Do you want me happy and less chaotic and more soft and more calm and more, you know, whatever? And that's going to

speak to him if your lifestyle is very chaotic and you don't see a lot of each other. Maybe his sex is There are women, though, Suzanne, who are going to say, yes, I hear you, but it's actually going outside of the home. It's having a career. That recharges me. That helps me feel sexy. Being home all day, slumming it with the kids. That does not make me feel sexy. And that actually wears me out more. Well, number one, how would you know? I actually haven't done it yet. Where did that even come from? That's a message. That's a message they've been sold. an absolute message they've been sold. There are a lot of reasons why women struggle. I struggled when I was home.

I struggled. But first of all, I never entertained not doing it. So there's that. But also, you have to create the environment that will work for you, like get around other mothers, right, and not be isolated. So there's things you can do. It's just a matter of being open to this part of your life. rather than blindly following the masses.

And you can't know what you don't know if you haven't tried it. The payoff is from what I've experienced, not personally, but through people who reach out to me and have done this instead of my relationship and my home life and my kids, God, what a huge, huge, huge difference. I don't have it. My life doesn't look anything like it did, you know, before I did this. I've just never heard of anybody regretting it.

never had that experience in all these years. I never had someone say, I wish I didn't do that. That was really a bad idea. And I think that's a fair answer. I think that's a fair answer. Are we seeing negative impacts on kids at any age who are in daycare or only before the ages of three? I think, so this is pretty controversial. And again, Erica Komisar would be a great person for this because she's a psychoanalyst who actually receives and works with people who never bonded with their parents. Because of daycare? Because, not solely because of daycare.

No, you can have, there's a whole slew of reasons why you cannot have bonded with a parent. I mean, you can have a parent at home whose neglectful or emotionally incapable of giving you what you need or an alcoholic or, I mean, there's all kinds of things. That's just one way in which, look, if you're not there, you're not there. You're not bonding. You can't bond with somebody you don't see enough of. That just doesn't happen. There's just such thing as quality time. That's another thing.

Babies need oodles and oodles and oodles. Not just babies, children of time. And they are supposed to be all-consuming when they're little. They only gradually get more independent. And if you force them into independence before they're ready, that can stay with them for life. That can be problematic. So you may not see that for years later.

it's sort of like the I mean it's like do you ever hear that book the unexpected legacy of divorce I haven't she he studied adult children of divorce who's and connected

what they're expecting because you were asking when do you notice the effects right is that much you asked me like just during those early years or later you may not something for a very long time and you have to sort of piece together

that's what psychoanalyst do they piece together like how did you get this way let's go back today want. Talk to me about what your life was like. And if you didn't get what you need from your mom and your dad for a different reason, but definitely the same, if you are fatherless or motherless or the person is absent, how can the child who had what he or she needed from mom and dad compare with the person whose parents weren't there or one wasn't there? There was absence or didn't bond. Obviously, they're not going to come out the same way. They're going to have had a

completely different experience from one another. So the idea that it's this idea that it just doesn't matter whether you're there that I'm bucking against and that you started to say at the beginning when you said, well, it's just a choice you did this, you did like vanilla chocolate, like they're equal. And it's just a matter of what you desire. And that's just not true. You know, and people come to learn this later and regret it. You know, And there's no point. There's no reason for that, except to just appease the culture because you're not supposed to say that. And most people will keep their mouths quiet if they know the truth.

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Try Garnu today at Garnu.com slash spillover with code spillover for 15% off. That's G-A-R-N-U dot com slash spillover with code spillover for 15% off, or just click the link in the show-not. So for the women who have their pitchfork and their fire and they're ready to burn us to the ground and they are angry at us for talking about the cons of daycare and they say, you don't understand Alex. You don't understand Suzanne. My family would be near poverty level if I didn't work and or I don't have family members close by. They can help watch my kids. So the only thing I have is putting my kids in daycare. What is your response to them?

So again, piece by piece, person by person, circumstance by circumstance. There are people who do not have family members around. There's no question about it. I have a, my podcast producer has to pay to have a sitter come into her house for a few hours a week because she has nobody around her. And that's okay. I mean, you have to do what you have to do in those circumstances. The bottom line is that more often than not, daycare,

does not, I'll say it again, does not come out in the wash financially. You think it does because you don't know any other way to live than the way you're living because there's so much more than just the child care costs. So I would encourage that person, A, do you really, really want to be home? Because if you really, really want to be home, like genuinely, like you're not just not lip service, put the math, put the paper to pen and a paper and look at those numbers. And I can almost guarantee you that we can figure out a way that it works financially. And that you're just, you've just not been open to a different way of living. So you do have to, you do have to be willing to trade off a simpler life. Like the life I have today is not the

life I had 20 years ago when I was home with my kids and my husband didn't make what he makes today back then. And life was much, much, much more simple. And you just didn't do a lot for those early years, right? Or if you went somewhere, you maybe went somewhere, you made me with camping. Or you certainly didn't eat out all the time the way people do now. I mean, there was just a whole different way of living, that was the trade-off for wanting to be there. So that's what I would say is, do you really want to? Because if you do really want to, you could probably find a way. We're always telling moms to lean in more. Why do you believe that we should telling moms to be leaning out? And what does that even mean?

Lean out means if you want a family. And let's just assume most people do, even though I know things are changing as we speak. Assuming you do, you want to have, you want to be married with children. Lean into that as your priority. Because those relationships, both with your spouse and your children,

they don't just take care of themselves around you while you're continuing on with your other priority, the same one that you had before you got married. So, so many of the problems that exist today are because there's no focus on the thing that's going to bring you the most joy. And that's, of course, your relationships at home.

I don't think anybody would really deny that. And I'm saying they just don't take care of themselves. They require an inordinate amount of time and effort and energy, not left over time while you're doing something else. And so it's not going to work. What's why it is falling apart for so many people? That's why they give up. That's why they don't even do it

because they don't even entertain this other way of living that would actually, in many cases, salvage the problem if you're open to, I could come back to that word open. You know, you're actually, it's funny because the same people who will argue that think they're open-minded and we're closed. And I'm saying, be open to all ideas, regardless of what culture tells you about it. And then all of a sudden, you have options. What should conservative women in particular then be advocating for when it comes to things like paid maternity leave? Is there a fight that conservatives have not really been showing up to? Is there a certain legislation that we should be fighting for for moms?

So I pretty much stay out of the political realm on this because I truly believe that neither the right nor the left gives a hoot about this issue. I believe that. They need women in the marketplace all the time. It is not in their vested interests to espouse what you are espousing. So why would they? So in my opinion, there is no political answer to this. Tell me about your podcast, the Suzanne Venker show. What do you talk about on there?

When do new episodes come out? It's like my go-to favorite podcast whenever I'm either cleaning my apartment or I'm driving to and from work. Like your show is one of my favorites. Oh, my gosh. thank you for saying that. I really, really appreciate that. It's a labor of love for sure. It's weekly. It comes out every Thursday. I did make an announcement that I'm going to take the month of July off. So be warned on that. But there's been going on for three years. So if you've never heard of it, there's plenty of there in the meantime. Yeah. So I, you know, I've gotten away from this

particular topic insofar as I don't really talk about, well, occasionally I do on my podcast, but really it's all about marriage and relationships. And I do coaching. That's pretty much the main thing I do. And at this point, so the podcast covers anything based, anything related to male-female dynamics. I do have some occasional parenting episodes. I do have an occasional guest on there.

But I pretty much like to bring what I'm seeing in coaching out into the world. And in my wildest dreams, I could, like, take my coaching sessions and have, wouldn't that be amazing and have everybody here? but there's no way because nobody wants to air their stuff. But I just think every time I'm in, I'm like, I want everybody else to hear this. Because they're going to completely relate. So since I can't do that,

I just try to bring as much as I can of that behind the scene stuff and say, hey, here's what I'm seeing, that kind of thing. One of my favorite recent episodes you did, you talked about how it's not necessarily like having the same interests or hobbies that really matters on if your marriage is going to make it. Are you getting married with somebody that has the same lifestyle goals? as in like, do you like to go out and make sure you're at every single social event on the weekends? Or do you like to stay in and you don't mind having a whole weekend where you don't leave the house?

And those are the things that make or break a marriage. I learn a lot from you. I love this. This is so awesome. Thank you. Because there's so much to say and there's so much information that's just not out there. Like, your marriage is going to be, it's not going to be anything like what you see or you think. It's really about your daily.

grind. That's marriage. If you're talking about 50 years, you think you're going to be hanging from the chandeliers for 50 years the way you did when you first met? I mean, come on. So you, you, you want to pick a life that you agree on living. Otherwise, you're going to be constantly fighting against those things. And so, yeah, that was one thing I had said is are you a, I mean, imagine that. If one person would go out all the time, the other one would love to stay home. I mean, how's that even doable over a lifetime? Yes, you're okay with being separate. But, I mean, I mean, if one person would be with being separate, but that would get hard. These are the types of bombs you're always dropping.

And my favorite thing about you is you are very honest about. I am very aware that most of the stuff I say is countercultural and going to be offensive to everyone. And that's okay. Because my whole thing is I want to just share the truth. And that's so me. It's like looking in a mirror and my future. And that's why it's hard to hear when you say, what is that, you know, what do you say

to people say they're going to mom shame you. Look, you're either a truth teller come hell or high water or you want to feel good about yourself all the time. You're not going to be able to have both. You're just not. You're not going to grow as a person if you're constantly feeling good about yourself. You have to look inside and say, what am I doing wrong? What am I missing?

What information are missing? What can I do differently to make my life better tomorrow? For me and everybody around me, like, you're not. growing if you're not facing that. So who wants to feel good about themselves all the time? Especially if it's not true. You know, just so that you feel good. It's okay to feel bad.

It's okay to feel bad. That's where you grow and learn. It's good. I mean, it's normal. It's part of being a human. Suzanne, this has been a blast. Loved this conversation. Thank you so much for coming on the spillover.

Thanks for having me. I told everyone, this is my new favorite episode of the year. I know a lot of people, including other conservatives, have condemned me for bringing this conversation to the forefront. I respectfully disagree with that because conservatives are pro-family, and that is why we should be talking about this. It is pro-family to talk about the dangers of daycare. And whether you already agreed with that sentiment before you listened or you feel convicted and maybe your heart is softened towards this subject now, or you still vehemently disagree, thank you for listening anyways. Next week, I have a big surprise. You are getting two spillover episodes with wildly different guests.

Make sure you are subscribed to this podcast. Leave a five-star review telling me what episode hooked you. Hopefully it was this one and you'll be back. I will see you Tuesday, July 25th and Friday, July 28th and midnight eastern and 9 p.m. Pacific. I'm Alex Clark, and this is The Spillover. Love you, mean it. Bye.