Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark - Jeremy Boreing on Daily Wire Drama, Brett Cooper & Why Conservatism Feels Lost

Episode Date: June 2, 2026

The Trump pivot. The Crowder fallout. Brett Cooper. Ben Shapiro. Jeremy Boreing has been at the center of some of the biggest personalities, controversies, and power moves in conservative media. As co-founder of The Daily Wire, he helped build a startup into a media empire—and in this episode, we get into what it really takes to do that, where the movement goes from here, and whether conservatism is actually creating culture or just reacting to one that’s falling apart.Thank you to our sponsors!TAYLOR DUKES WELLNESS: Use code "ALEXCLARK" for 10% off your purchasePRIMALLY PURE: Use code ALEXCLARK for 15% off your first orderCROWDHEALTH: Use code “CULTURE” to get your first three months for only $99/month MASA CHIPS: Use code "ALEXCLARK" for 25% OFFJOOVV: Get an exclusive discount on your first red light therapy orderWILD PASTURES: Get an exclusive discount on your next orderOur Guest:Jeremy BoreingJeremy's Links:InstagramYouTubeApple PodcastXFOLLOW ALEX:Instagram |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ @realalexclark⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@cultureapothecary⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠X |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ @yoalexrapz⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ @RealAlexClark⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcast |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Subscribe to ‘Culture Apothecary’ on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. New episodes drop 6pm PST/ 9pm EST every Monday and Thursday.DISCLAIMER: This content is for informational purposes only and is not medical advice. Always talk to a qualified healthcare professional for any health-related questions or decisions.

Brett didn't want to be at the Daily Wire anymore. The only things that have ever really wounded me, it is the times when people let you down. That was one of them. I hate the way that things ended. I think Nick Fuentes is a superstar. Oh, yeah. It is so frustrating to me,

seeing what he's done with his life in his career. I think he could have done incredible things for the conservative movement. I think he could have been one of the biggest talents. It's a Hill Mary play. If it pays off, then he's the furor. It probably doesn't pay off. He squandered that talent.

He certainly squandered it from a moral perspective. What has been an extraordinary way that your wife has shown up for you in this time? I think that Anne has a real wisdom. She's sort of always understood that if she focuses on being a good wife, that it gives me the best shot that I've got at being a good husband. Conservative media has become one of the most powerful forces in American culture over the last decade. We used to be the uncool kids. And now we are the ones shaping elections, internet discourse, driving entertainment, getting the viral clips, actually making journalism great again, and shaping the way millions of people understand reality itself.

But at the same time, there's also growing tension inside the movement right now about whether conservatism is actually building culture or not. Today's guest helped build one of the most influential conservative media companies in modern history. Jeremy Boring is the co-founder and former co-CEO of The Daily Wire, where he helped turn a scrappy political outlet into a massive media empire spanning podcasts, documentaries, children's entertainment, film production, and subscription media. But now, after stepping away from that role, Jeremy is entering a new chapter with the Jeremy Boring Show. And we're talking about everything, and I mean everything, why the Daily Wire went from never Trumphurst to pro Trump. If Ben Shapiro's best days are behind him, the Stephen Crowder

fallout, Brett Cooper drama, whether the right has become too reactive, and why politics alone may not be enough to save a civilization. But first, please pause, leave a five-star review. I really went there in this interview, so if you appreciate that, take five seconds on Apple or Spotify to click five stars. The show is all about healing a sick culture, physically, emotionally, and spiritually. Watch this interview on the real Alex Clark YouTube channel or Culture Apothecary on Spotify. Please welcome Jeremy Boring to Culture Apothecary. You helped build one of the most influential conservative media companies that we know. I mean, in modern history.

What do you think conservative media is currently getting right? What do you think conservative media is getting wrong? Well, one of the reasons that Daily Wire was able to be so successful out of the gate, and one of the reasons I think that Charlie was successful with TPSA, kind of on the same timeline, is that we saw the opportunities that would be afforded by emerging media, and we took them faster than any other conservative organizations. Prager U. There are a few who are sort of in our class who came up together,

who all made that move at a similar time. and we were the beneficiaries of it. And so for 18 months, Daily Wire was the number one publisher in the world on Facebook, not the number one conservative publisher, the number one publisher of any stripe. And that's, you know, back when they used to make it very difficult for us to have success on those platforms. But we just, we saw the opportunity. We knew that the only way to win is by winning. And so we made it our mission to win.

We used to have a rule at Daily Wire that if you came in and said something about the algorithm, we'd fire you. Like you can never come in and say, oh, but the algorithm. Because, yeah, the algorithm changes. and sometimes it's against us, and sometimes it's really against us. And our jobs to win. It doesn't matter. There's always these excuses, like, I'm being shadow banned. It's like, no, maybe your content just sucks.

Or maybe you're being shadow banned. Right. What are you going to do about it? Like, you've got to get out and find a way to win anyway, and maybe your content sucks. And so we were just fast, and we were nimble. We would adapt. We changed constantly. What I think conservative media is getting wrong now is we've gotten very comfortable with

the status quo with the platforms. particularly since Donald Trump's re-election. You know, of course, the Biden era was like peak shadow ban cancel culture, algorithmic shenanigans. And then Donald Trump gets sworn in in the rotunda, and he makes all of the tech giants sit behind him, you know, like to show who's the boss. And obviously, they all started treating us much differently than they had treated us previously. Now, don't get any illusions about that. I'm sure they're all mistreat us again at the first sign of a power shift in Washington, D.C. but what it's meant in the most recent years

is that we haven't been fighting against that constant challenge of all of the kind of censorship activities. And I think that we're not really being very innovative as a result. You know, we're all in the rut of clipping and Instagram and, you know, we all basically do the same things. And I worry that that's going to make us soft and weak

when the time comes that we have to be fighting again. I love that you said that about winning and hating to lose because that was something Charlie always said. So he would always say around the office, it's more important to hate to lose than to love to win. And that was a frequent thing that would come up when we were hiring new employees, things like that. We would ask them that question. Do you love to win or do you hate to lose more? So you guys have kind of the same philosophy there. I loved getting to tour the campus today that in one of the buildings there are all these

flags hung up on the wall and they say things like opportunity looks like work. I'm like, yeah, absolutely. I think one of them was something about winning, like the only way or winning is the only way or something like that. I thought, that's great. You know, there aren't many organizations in right of center media or right of center anything that emphasize the need to succeed. And in part, the 501 structure sort of softens us. It keeps us from having to win. And one of the things I really appreciate about Turning Point is that it's a nonprofit, but it sort of runs with the attitude of a for-profit. What do you think is killing political commentary? Is it being wrong or being boring? Being wrong. I actually think that a lot of political commentary is succeeding right now, specifically by not being boring.

But in the effort to succeed without being boring, people are saying things that aren't true. And, you know, there's sort of like a hierarchy of priorities that you have to have in life. life and in any human endeavor. One of our high priorities has to be success, monetary success, getting clicks and likes, because that's how we get our message out and that's how we make money. You have a responsibility to pay for yourself. You have a responsibility to pay for your family. But if that's your highest priority, then definitionally all of your other priorities are

subordinate to it. The highest priority still has to be the mission. In political media, if the highest priority isn't the mission, then pretty soon you're going be peddling a bunch of things that aren't true because the audience online will always reward falsehood. They'll always ultimately reward like pornography. I mean, if we just want to start a subscription business and make the most money online that we can make, we would all just go into porn. The mission is always the highest value, not the only value. Got to succeed, got to make money, got to do activism, got to win votes, got all the things that we have to do. Mission always has to be

number one. Has conservative media become more about keeping people angry or actually building something long lasting? One of my criticisms of the current state of conservative media is that there's very little that's currently being built to be long lasting. It really feels like we're all playing to the audience. We're all playing to the algorithm. We're all trying to be creatures of our time, of our moment. And I think that that can bear a lot of short-term reward, but it's not going to bear a lot of long-term reward. What do you think the conservative movement is trying to conserve anymore? I think the conservative movement is really fractured and is in a lot of trouble. I sometimes bristle at the what has the conservative movement conserved because I think that it's a line that

people want to use to propose a more radical ideological positioning for the movement that in a way is itself not aimed at conserving anything that has traditionally been associated with America. A lot of the what has conservatism conserved people are sort of like anti-American revolution, anti-democratic systems, anti-liberal liberalism. And I think that, of course, the reality is what conservatism in this country has conserved is the country. It's conserved, it's conserved the greatest exercise in human flourishing and human prosperity and human freedom that's ever existed anywhere on the earth. It's done so deeply and perfectly. Of course it has. we're imperfect. It's often done so almost with like catastrophic failures. Of course, we're human

beings. We're fallen and we're flawed. The idea that some philosophy was going to perfectly conserve anything is foolish. And in a sort of ultimate sense, like, if you could perfectly conserve, what would you perfectly conserve? What moment in history has perfectly articulated our values? What moment in history have people participated perfectly in life the way that we think they should? like, what is it that we're glorifying? Are we glorifying the 1950s when, you know, yes, women stayed home and raised the kids and black people had to drink out of separate water faucets? Like, of course, that's not a perfect representation of what we want to conserve. Is it the, like, the founding era, you know, when probably half of children died in childbirth? Well, no, I mean, there were some

great things happening in the founding era, but that's not, you don't want to just stick a pen in some moment in history and say, conserve this. That's a bad view of conservatism. You know, Michael Knowles might say that there was something like in the 12th century when Catholicism was in its primacy that is the perfect moment, but we all know Michael Knowles wouldn't be able to survive five minutes in the 12th century either.

I just think that the idea of like conserving a moment in time, unless that moment in time is the 1990s, trying to conserve a moment in time is obviously not the purpose of conservatism. The purpose of conservatism is to carry forward the best wisdom and the best values of the past.

the hard-earned wisdom and the hard-earned values of the people who went before us, fought with reality, just like we fight with reality, but built something substantial, carry the best parts of that forward into a future that will look different than the past that will still require building new things and innovating and change. One of the things that concerns me the most, actually, in not just the conservative movement, but in the country right now, is our absolute resistance to any sort of change. And in a way, it's because so much has changed so fast. We're shell-shocked. We feel that we've lost so much. But we run a real risk of becoming sort of like Europe. The story of Europe in the second half of the 20th century is the story of one of the most productive, innovative Christian places on Earth deciding that it didn't actually want the future. And so it passed a bunch of protectionist policies. It essentially set out the entire early Internet and early technological race that's to be. find most of our lifetime. Now, the upside is that left a lot of opportunity for America to become even more successful and even more hegemonic on the global stage. But Europe is so far behind us in terms of, you know, GDP, in terms of innovation, opportunity for young people. You know, the smartest young people in Europe come to America. I worry that we're at risk of becoming the very same thing. If we think incorrectly about what conservative

means. Conserving doesn't mean not moving forward. Conserving means moving forward with the best ideas and the best values and the best wisdom of the past as our foundation. Will it become a problem for us as a movement if we pump out more commentators than artists?

We already do. Conservatism, the conservative movement pumps out precious few artists. Who are true artists when you think of the conservative movement? Certainly Dallas Sonnier is a real artists and a real craftsman of film. I think Matt Walsh is a genuine artist. Matt Walsh is like an artist who plays a political pundit, you know. He does a good show. He has a good skill at

talking about ideological and political issues. But what he really is is a culture guy. I won't say there are thousands of people who could make the Matt Walsh show, because of course that's not true. There are dozens of people who could make them out wall show. There's one guy on earth who could make what is a woman. There's one guy on earth who could make, am I racist? There's one guy on earth who could have made judged the show that he, the show in which he played a judge and litigated actual cases. I've even read some of Matt's fiction concepts, and he occupies an incredibly unique lane.

He's an actual cultural creator. And as a movement, we provide very little opportunity for people. like Matt to actually do the most important part of what they were put on Earth to do, which is the reason that we can only name a precious few of them. Now, there are some in Hollywood who share our values and our next level fantastic creators and artists, but they're working in a system that in many ways works, not against their ability to create art, but their ability to create art that's consistent with their values or their worldview.

And so I think that in some ways they're sometimes throwing pearls before the swine, You know, like they're getting the opportunity in that system to cultivate those talents, but they're not getting the opportunity to use those talents for maximal human flourishing and good. We try to give people the opportunity to use their talents for maximal human flourishing and good, but very little opportunities to actually cultivate and develop their talent at a high level. When I think about different people in the conservative movement and in the media space in particular, I mean, there is nobody that compares to Matt when it comes to fresh. takes. Like a take on literally, it could be the most benign thing, but it's some, I've never

thought of it that way, I've never heard of it, nor did I ever come to that conclusion. And so he's always just so interesting and engaging. And I appreciate that so much about him as a talent is that he always gives me something new to chew on, which I really like. And a lot of times what I see in the conservative movement are, you know, creators or commentators that are just regurgitating the exact same takes over and over and over again. It's like I could see the exact same tweet a hundred times. And then Matt Walsh is talking about, you know, anime or something. It's just, it's like, it's a nice pause in the feed when you're scrolling, whatever he's posting about.

Yeah, I agree. Well, he approaches it like a creative. And I think that's the reason that his takes are a creative. There's been a lot of negative press recently about the Daily Wire and Ben Shapiro in particular saying that the Daily Wire is struggling, that conservative media is in decline. Do you think that that's objective reporting? Is it narrative building or is it a combination of both? Well, it's probably a combination of both. I mean, you know, I'm not inside the Daily Wire anymore.

I don't have, obviously, I have a little bit more insight than your average bear on the street. But I don't have like firsthand information the way that I would have had at any point in the previous decade. One doesn't have to have inside information to know that they really did just go through a round of layoffs. you know, people who I had employed, people who I'm friends with, the guy who I've been friends with for 22 years was one of the people let go. That's real. I think that Ben has spoken openly about the fact that they've seen some decline in the last year. But a lot of what's been said has been completely overblown.

For example, Candace said immediately that they had fired 50% of their staff, and then she updated her tweet and said, no, it was more like 60%. Well, that's completely absurd, DailyWire, didn't fire anything like 60%. percent or 50 percent or 40 percent or 30 percent of their staff that didn't happen. Probably a lot of it is like a kind of wish projection. You know, the Daily Wire has been ascendant for a long time. It's been on top for a long time. And when you're on top, people do root against you. When you're first place, all the other people who want to be first place hope that you become second place. That's just, that's baked in. That's the desire not to lose. Everybody's got some amount of it. So I think that

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Code Culture. The Daily Wire was famously full of never-Trumpers. Now I'd say the Daily Wire is very pro-Trump. What is responsible for that change? Is it just genuine change of mind? Was there financial gains to be made? There's a lot of speculation on that. I didn't vote for Donald Trump in 2016.

I don't believe Ben voted for Donald Trump in 2016. And we worried at the time that that might be an existential issue, that we might lose. Our business was fairly young at that point. And we thought, well, this may be it. You know, we're taking essentially the most unpopular stance that you can possibly take in the conservative movement. And instead, we just exploded. We grew. We didn't grow because we were appealing to a never-Trump audience.

We didn't give in to, like, Trump derangement syndrome. We didn't go remake our values and start voting Democrat. We didn't, you know, race off to join the New York Times or whatever, you know, as some people in the never-Trump movement had done. We saw Trump rising in 2015 and 2016, and we thought that the negative consequences of Donald Trump ascending would be greater than the positive consequences of Donald Trump ascending. And some of the things that we were concerned about, we were right about. You know, Donald Trump has been a very mixed bag. He's not a particularly moral leader for the party, which after a decade has started to show itself in the conduct of the Republican Party and the conservative movement generally. he's not a particularly ideological leader of the movement, which after a decade has started to show fractures in the movement because we've been bereft of ideological leadership.

And so you see this sort of fracturing as everybody tries to vie to define what the ideological future of the movement is going to be. But a lot of the things that we were concerned about didn't happen. Trump presented in a certain way in 2016 where it was difficult to know how he would actually break as president. For example, I hosted him 10 days after he announced for the presidency, after he came down the escalator. Ten days later, I hosted him. And from the stage, as a man seeking the Republican nomination for president of the United States, he said that if he won the presidency, he would appoint his sister to the Supreme Court and that we would get a European-style single-payer health care system. So was I wrong to think that maybe Donald Trump would govern as a Democrat?

he was saying in those days that he would govern in many ways as a Democrat. It was unclear which way Donald Trump would break on a lot of things. I think that in part because Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi didn't make deals with him, because they were more interested in seeing their party come back to power than in actually trying to advance aspects of their agenda. They targeted Trump instantly and attacked him in ways that no president of modern history had been attacked, and Donald Trump's a counterpuncher. And so in a way, Schumer and Pelosi perhaps forced him much further to the right than he might have ordinarily found himself.

I mean, he'd been a Democrat and a supporter of Democrats for a long time. But whatever the result, we were obviously wrong about some of the things that we were concerned about about Donald Trump. And so as the years went by, the Democrats weren't in power. Even if all Trump did was nothing, that's four years of the Democrats not advancing their agenda. That's huge. he didn't do nothing. He gave us the most conservative Supreme Court probably in the history of the country. He killed Soleimani. He immediately brought about the tax cuts in his first, going back to his first term, which was stabilizing and a huge boon for the economy. And so in time, we were doing what everyone else was doing, was just assessing Donald Trump based on the merits. Did he do some of the things that you were worried he would do? Yes, but those are now done. So that's baked. in. That's no longer a reason not to support him on a go-forward basis. Did he do some of the worst things he were afraid that he would do? No, he didn't do those things. And in fact, he did a lot of

affirmatively good things. And so over time, our position on Trump went from opposition to skepticism, to concern, to support. And did we benefit financially from that? I don't think so, because we exploded in growth even when we opposed him. You know, the Daily Wire grew our revenue. every single year for 10 straight years. Very few companies ever accomplished that. It was uninterrupted growth for the entirety of the first decade. That means in the years that we were against Donald Trump, we grew. And the years where we were more supportive of Donald Trump, we grew.

And the years when Joe Biden was president, we grew. And in the years when Trump came back to the White House, we grew again. Because we were focused on being honest purveyors. And I think that the internet recognizes, I hate to use a millennial word, but it recognizes authenticity and values authenticity above partisanship. So even our audience, almost all of whom voted for Donald Trump in 2016, appreciated that we were honest about our views of Donald Trump, even though it was different than theirs. And we tried to carry that forward. We were honest with him when we were skeptical and we were honest about him when we were. supportive. The audience could detect that we were honest and they supported the fact that we were,

even when they disagreed. One of the things that I said is CEO all the time, our job is not to give the audience what they want. Our job is to make sure that we honor the audience, make sure that we don't forsake the audience, that we don't flaunt our differences with the audience or rub it in their face or take them for granted. To do that would be to be elitist. We're not elitist, but to give them what they want would be populist, and we're also not populists. What we are, and we are, is Republican, where lowercase are a Republican. And to be Republican means to both lead and to represent. It means that we have a responsibility to the audience to represent them well and a responsibility for the audience to make sure that we're leading them and telling them things that

we believe are true. And I think the audience appreciated that. I think they could detect that that was our, even if they couldn't have articulated it, I think they could detect that that was our position. If you make for the audience, you may get a few hits, but you won't have a long-lasting career. If you take it, if you take for granted the audience, now then you become an elitist and who do you actually serve? Whose interest do you serve at that point other than your own? A true artist, which is what we were ultimately trying. We were a bunch of Hollywood guys trying to make it in this world, right? We just took that kind of approach, which is to say, well, we're going to make the things that we think need to be made. And we're going to hope that

there's an audience who also thinks that those things need to be made. We're going to be true to that. And I think it was a good strategy. I think it carried us a long way. Well, you're not kidding about exponential growth because you've talked a lot about how the Daily Wire did $200 million a year in revenue, which is insanely impressive. I know Benke was $100 million, right? Well, we made a $100 million commitment where Benkechie was concerned. We didn't spend $100 million. Okay, you didn't spend $100 million. Because I was just curious with Benke and then Penn Dragon, how much you guys actually

kept Net, when studio costs and actors and everything was accounted for. This is just like inside baseball to nerd out on. Net is a tricky thing to determine because of some of the structures of the company. And, you know, you probably get into territory here that is confidential proprietary information for the Daily Wire that I shouldn't elaborate on too much. But, you know, to the extent that the profit. of a company is the value that can be distributed to its owners at the end of the year. The owners made money every single year that the Daily Wire existed.

To the extent that profit is defined as a very particular bookkeeping concept, we were still profitable in every year, but the amount of profit in any given year would go up or down. There were years that were tight. There were years that were tough. But even in those years, the principals in the company made a lot of money. What do you think about criticisms in hindsight saying that, you know, the mistake with Bent Key was that the programming was focused more on what adults would want to see in a kid show than what kids would want to see? Yeah, that's just not true at all. There may be a fair criticism that when I spoke about Bent Key, I sometimes overemphasized the value of Benkechee from a parent's perspective.

But the content at Benkechie was made for kids. You know, if you go back and watch Chip Chilla, I mean, my daughter watches Benkeye. every single day to this day. That's her favorite thing to watch. She, the, most of the programming on Benke, was licensed programming. Beautiful shows like Billy the Cowboy Hamster, this beautiful French illustration. And then the shows that we produced original, like Chipchilla and a wonderful day with Maple McLeigh. These are beautiful, wonderful, entertaining, high-value shows, Gus Plus Us. Which, by the way, no kid shows anymore are beautiful.

They're trash. aesthetically and just the writing it's in the content and the messaging it's trash so you were right I mean they are beautiful well done shows and beauty was an very important factor

for us when we were selecting content for Ben Key you know one of the things I love about a wonderful day with Mabel McLeigh is how deliberate the filmmaker the creators Ryan and Katie Chase were about making sure that there weren't too many edits making sure that it didn't move at the pace and tempo

of like modern Nickelodeon or something that it you know that it didn't keep kids in a agitated state as they watched it to try to get dopamine feedback out of them. It met them, and they got to live in this environment, this beautiful, well-lit, warm environment. And so, yeah, I think that I think there's a criticism of me and how I talked about the show that's valid. And I think that some people who never watched any of the content may have translated that legitimate criticism of me into a criticism of the content that just doesn't apply. The content's absolutely made for children and is absolutely fabulous. Do you have any decisions that you made while at Daily Wire that you genuinely regret?

Oh, yeah, so many. You know, being the CEO means making decisions. That's the job. The job is to be the decider. And quite often, you have to make a decision that's the wrong decision because even a wrong decision is better than no decision. I mean, your job is to make decisions. ultimately your success in the job is going to come down to making more right decisions than wrong decisions. But it's not your job to only make right decisions.

It's your job to always be making decisions. So I made all kinds of bad decisions on a daily basis. It's not even as though I would say, well, three times in a decade I made a bad decision. No, three times in a day I made it. Maybe three times in an hour I made a bad decision because all I did was walk around being the boss. I walked around being a leader of the company all day, every day. day. And when I say all day, I mean all the hours in a day. And when I say every day, I mean seven days a week, nights and Christmas. Like, that's what it means to lead a company. You

saw the way that Charlie lived his life. That's not a part-time job. And it's not a guy who makes decisions every once in a while and hopes they're all good. Oh, no. He would text people at 2.30 in the morning. Like, I have an idea. We should do this. Let's be in the studio at 6 a.m. You know, he never stopped. That's what the job requires. Yeah. So I stomped through the world with a big pair of boots and sometimes I stepped on the wrong thing. And some of those I regret. Some of them are, you know, some of them on any given day I regret. Some of them are small and would make no sense to articulate. Some of them are huge. I hired Candice Owens. And hiring Candice Owens is a regret. My real regret is that it took me so long to fire Candice Owens. She needed to be terminated much

earlier. There were people in the movement who were telling me that she was becoming what she was becoming and I didn't want to see it. So her claim is I was fired because I said Christ is king. Is that true or not true. That's absolutely absurd. She also claims that she never said Christ is King at a Jew. Both of the first two times that she used it, she was literally saying it at Ben Shapiro, who, spoiler alert, is the most famous religious Jew probably in the world. You're kidding. This is a new information. Of the people that Candace accuses of being against the term Christ is king, like almost all of them except Ben, believes that Christ is king. I do think that Candice uses. I do think that Candice used the term Christ is king in a blasphemous way that was carrying the Lord's name in vain,

that was weaponizing Christianity against Ben because she was particularly angry with Ben and was making a tribal statement to put him on the outside of what she was indicating was team good guy instead of on the inside. And I think that's deplorable. I think there's a reason there's an entire commandment about not doing it. But the idea that I would fire someone for being Christian, I'm Christian. Almost everyone at the Daily Wire is Christian. How does that make any sense? I think that's like the biggest misconception and weird thing about the Daily Wire, in my opinion, is this like whole idea like it's all Jews and all this. I'm like, what do you mean?

It's like literally all Catholics. Everyone at the Daily Wire is Catholic. I mean almost, you know. You mean the hosts. Yes, yes. Of the employees, almost all of them are Protestants. Isn't that interesting? The Daily Wire is a remarkably diverse.

religious environment. And listen, when the Daily Wire started, you had the three partners, Caleb Robinson, Ben Shapiro, Jeremy Boring. Caleb was part of a very particular Christian sect that upholds Jewish law, but is Christian. So it's a very narrow sect, but very devoted, very devout. You have Ben, who's not only Jewish, but from, he's Orthodox. He's as Jewish as it gets very religious and very observant. And you have me, who was a lay pastor for 15 years, including when the Daily Wire started and for the first several years thereafter. So religious disagreement in good faith was sort of baked into the actual fabric of the Daily Wire. And you felt it throughout everything. By the time the Daily Wire was sort of at its peak of, you know, I don't know,

275 employees or something like that. There were probably three religious Jews working in the company. All of the hosts were Catholic or Catholic. or whatever Andrew Claven is, which is like Catholic adjacent, and all the employees were Protestants, and that was just normal. That was just sort of part of the DNA of the company, was a belief that we were unified by the political mission, which is the thing that brought us all together.

We had respect for one another's religious beliefs and traditions. We argued about them. We talked about them. I mean, you know, sometimes we talked about them on air. Quite often, you would tune into a backstage and hear us debating different religious points of view with one another on whatever the topic of the day was. Backstage is just what we're like off camera. Like off camera, we would just talk about the exact same things.

We'd go out for a steak or go out for a cigar and talk about religious beliefs. Ben and I would get on the phone every single day for 15 years. Do you miss it? Oh, absolutely. But we would talk about religious issues all the time. But agreeing on those issues was never a fundamental requirement. So the idea that the Daily Wire is Jewish is absurd. Well, they say the same thing about turning point.

which I'm like, I probably can count on one hand how many Jewish donors we have. It's like the least amount of people that donate is our Jewish. But anyway, how did the Daily Wire measure success when it came to shows and talent? Like, how did you know if a show was doing well? The chart had to move up into the right. And that's, that was true of every chart. We had to make more money every year. That's how you keep score in a for-profit business. You had to get more clicks, more downloads up into the right. But you had to do so playing within the rules of the Daily Wire. And the rules of the Daily Wire. And the Rules of the Daily Wire, were pretty broad. I mean, the rules of the Daily Wire allowed us to disagree on the most important thing, which is, is Christ King? Turns out we all agreed except Ben. But you couldn't be

against the core mission of the Daily Wire. You couldn't do things that would be antithetical to the core mission of the Daily Wire. If you, for example, if one of our hosts came to us and said,

hey, guys, I've decided I'm pro-choice. Well, okay, you're entitled to be pro-choice, but you're not going to be pro-choice here. That's famously what happened to Tommy Lerrin.

Right. At the blaze. At the blaze. Like, that's not what this is. This isn't that. This isn't a place for people who have that position. You know, the Daily Wire believes in free speech, but the Daily Wire isn't a free speech platform. Because the Daily Wire isn't a platform.

It's a publication. You know, we curated people whose values we largely aligned with. We didn't completely agree with any one of our hosts. We didn't completely agree with each other, as I've made clear even in this conversation. But you had to align on the core principles. of the company with us. For example, if you descended into anti-Semitic madness, the Daily Wire wasn't going to be a home for you. If you had descended, no one ever did, into pro-abortion madness, the Daily Wire wouldn't have been a place for you. If Ben and I, instead of not voting for Donald Trump

in 2016, had come out and endorsed Hillary Clinton, well, then we would have deserved to have lost the Daily Wire because we were no longer advocating for the values for which the company existed. Let's talk about the Stephen Crowder fallout. Looking back, do you think that he raised legitimate concerns about how conservative media companies structured talent contracts, or do you still believe that the Daily Wire's offer was fundamentally fair? The Daily Wire's offer wasn't fundamentally fair. It was beyond fair. It was generous. The offer that we made to Stephen Crowder is an offer that I would stand by any day of the week. You know, Stephen, I think it was a real betrayal.

I think that he had left the blaze. He wanted to launch his show. He wanted to launch it in opposition to something. He found a story that he thought would be kind of scandalous, and he betrayed a friend in his attempt to do so. I put $50 million on the table to make a deal with Stephen, and it would have been a good deal for him. It wouldn't have penalized him. It said that he had to have skin in the game. You know, I can't pay you for money that you're going to make on platforms that you get yourself thrown off of.

That doesn't make sense. We're a for-profit company. not a charity. My job isn't to pay you no matter what happens. My job is to incentivize you to be successful so that we can be successful together so that the ships rise together. Yeah, well, I say you came out looking good in that situation. It was a very hurtful, yeah, a very hurtful thing. I considered Stephen a friend. I still think Stephen's one of the most talented people operating in conservative movement. You know, when you asked earlier who are actual artistic voices on the right. I'm surprised I didn't get to Stephen because he's certainly on that list. He's a guy

who actually values the joke. He doesn't tell jokes cynically. He tells jokes as a comedian. I think that there have been times when his show was the best thing being, it's not always, there have been times when his show is the best thing being produced in conservative media. I think that some of the commercials that he made in the old days, which were, you know, is proof that he's an artist because he lost his butt on those commercials. You know, you can't take money from a sponsor and then spend all.

of the money making the commercial and still have a successful business. The only kind of people who are stupid enough to do that are artists. And so, of course, it's evidence that Stephen is one. He cares about the quality of his content. And I think a lot of people in conservative media don't care at all about the quality of their content. They only care about, you know, are they getting clicks, are they getting downloads? Are they getting the dopamine that you get from audiences liking you and reacting to you and the money that comes with that. Stephen's certainly not one of those people. The other morning I did something that would get me arrested in three states.

I let my eight-year-old ride the subway alone. Why? Because he was late for work. Corporate America doesn't care that you're eight. The train doesn't wait. And honestly, he handled it better than most adults. He was confident, he was purposeful, and he got a promotion. That story isn't real. I don't even have kids.

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you know, when you walk around in boots stomping on things, making decisions, and breaking and breaking things, you have to have a pretty thick skin. The only things that have ever really wounded me in the business. It's not losses. It's not mistakes. There's all kinds of mistakes anywhere. But it is the times when people let you down that you suffer. And, you know, that was one of them. I hate the way that things ended with Brett. I wouldn't have guessed what that outcome would be. Whereas with someone like Candace, I wasn't surprised by the outcome. I was surprised by the particulars. I never would have seen Candace's descent into the anti-Semitism that ultimately took her away from the Daily Wire. I certainly would have never seen that coming.

And no one could have possibly seen coming the evil that Candace has been peddling over the last eight months. I mean, it defies imagination what she's become and the things that she said. But I always knew that Candace was tough. I wouldn't have been surprised that Candace made trouble. I wouldn't have been surprised at any point of Candace leaving the Daily. wire. Wouldn't have been surprised about Candace turning on the daily wire. But there are other examples where I have been surprised, and that's one, Stevens one. People online say she was pushed out from everything from getting married to wearing a blue shirt and that you suit her for

wearing a blue shirt, whatever that means. I mean, what is your side of the story? I've certainly never penalized anyone for getting married. In a very funny kind of quirk, I actually wrote a small part of Brett's wedding ceremony and was there. Interestingly, Candace wasn't at Brett's wedding, which makes it funny that she always sort of levels all these criticisms against me related to Brett's wedding. The actual particulars, though, you know, aren't the kind of things that I'm probably comfortable discussing

or even able to discuss. You know, when you go through these kinds of separations with talent, there's confidentiality things that get agreed to, and sometimes you say yes to confidentiality and non-disparagement agreements and wish you hadn't. I think everybody probably feels that because at a certain point

you want to tell your side of a story. But you agree to these things because in theory they're mutually beneficial. There are things that take place in those kinds of conflicts and in those kinds of negotiations that are candidly nobody's business. It's not always people at their very best

when you're in those kinds of conflicts. And so, you know, for the most part, I think it's probably best to just let people want to make up stories and gossip about it online. I understand that. You know, we're public figures. A lot of our lives are lived in public. And when you suddenly say that there's part of it that isn't accessible to everybody,

it can upset people. But at the end of the day, you know, these are all actual human relationships, actual business relationships. There's large amounts of money involved in these relationships, as you know. there's a lot of people working on these shows. You just can't air all of it publicly. Did you learn anything from that situation about, like, audience attachment or parasycial relationships that people have with media figures?

Probably no. You know, I certainly learned a lot of things through the process, but I wouldn't say about audience relationships. Brett had a huge relationship with her audience, no question. Her audience grew after she left the Daily Wire. So it's not as though she left and took the whole audience with her. No, she left and left and, grew a larger audience, which is, you know, a big accomplishment on her on her part. You know,

that show, the comments section, wasn't Brett's creation. It was created by the team at Daily Wire. We had open casting for it. We actually hired a different person to host it. And that didn't work out. So then we went looking for a second person, you know, to come in and host it. We found Brett. And we're really fortunate to find Brett. She's incredibly talented, an unbelievably gifted actress. I actually think her role in Pindragon is a standout role. She's absolutely terrific in the show. And when she left, she couldn't take our property.

The show was our property. We created it. We cast it. We grew it. The audience sometimes sees a thing like that. And they say, well, that's not fair. It was hers. But on what basis did they arrive at that?

What they really mean is we associate it with her because we liked her. Well, that's fine. You can still go watch her. But in hindsight, do you get why audiences interpreted the Reagan move as negative? Like, in hindsight, do you wish that you would have renamed the show? Or do you think, no, that was the right thing. They were familiar with her? No, the show was ours.

We didn't have any obligation to rename the show. I didn't rename it when I didn't rename it when I. I recast the original host and put Brett in the role. Now you can say, well, yeah, but Brett took the show to the places that it went. Well, of course, that's true. Johnny Carson took the Tonight Show to New Heights, but they didn't rename it when they cast Jay Leno to now be the host of the Tonight Show. And they didn't rename it when they brought on Conan O'Brien to be the host of the Tonight Show. I think that we were trying to create IP that could, you know, more than any of our other shows at the time, that show had a format.

we had we had created a format and we thought that that format might could go on and live with a different host you know Reagan had been the producer of that show Reagan in her own right as an enormous talent one of the most talented people at Daily Wire a terrific on on camera personality she did a great job producing the show so she knew the show better than anyone she herself was a very valuable person who I wanted to continue investing in When she would guest host the show, the numbers were huge. People loved it when she would guest host the show. I think that had the separation with Brett been handled better,

that Reagan would have been very successful in the role and the show would have done well. I think that to the extent that it didn't, it's not really on Reagan in any way. I think that the circumstances of how those final episodes with Brett win, was ultimately damaging to Reagan's chances of success in that show. I don't think they will long-term be damaging to Reagan's success, because as I say, Reagan's an enormous talent, and she's going to go on and be successful in whatever it is that she does. But probably it became untenable.

You know, when you have voices like Candace working against you from the outside, I mean, Candice is a giant star, and she was immediately hostile toward Reagan being in that role. And that probably did as much as anything to guarantee that it was going to be very difficult for Reagan to succeed in it. Being at the Daily Wire for so long, did it feel like a little bit of an identity crisis for you leaving? Oh yeah. It's still an identity crisis. Do you feel like leaving was, was it liberating? Was it painful? Was it disorienting all three? Well, painful, disorienting. Liberating, I suppose, but I don't, I haven't yet experienced that as a feeling of liberation.

I suppose that there's a kind of technical truth to the fact that it's liberating because I now speak for myself. Whereas for the last, well, really, for my entire career, I've spoken on behalf of not just myself, but a brand and other people and employees and and and and now my new, my new life is, I suppose, free from some of those constraints, but I didn't come by those constraints accidentally. I wanted them. And so, so it mostly feels like pain and loss and humiliation. You know, it's hard to go to the top of the mountain and then be sort of back picking your way around at the bottom of the mountain. It's hard to rebuild structures that you built over a decade ago. It's hard to start something over. You're married, right? I am. What has been an

extraordinary way that your wife has shown up for you in this time? I have always known that I'm not capable of fighting a two-front war. If I had a bad wife, in a bad marriage, I couldn't have done any of the things that I've done in my life. The battle takes all of my energy, whatever the battle is. And because my home life is stable and good and nurturing and loving, I've always been able to focus all of my, whatever that is on the battle that's outside. My wife certainly, her life was completely disrupted by this change, just like my life has been completely disrupted by this change.

She feels all the same feeling of loss and of pain and of embarrassment and of starting over. She feels the personal pain that accompanies some of the situations you've asked about. Like she doesn't know Stephen Crowder, but she feels the personal pain of the fracturing of that relationship because she's my wife. Same with Brett Cooper. You know, Ann was always very fond of Brett Cooper. She feels that. And the relationships with my partners at Daily Wire, I mean, those are very close relationships.

You know, our lives were very enmeshed with one another. So she fills those particularly deeply and much more personally. And she just never says a word to me about it. To say she didn't miss a beat would be to make it sound like she didn't go through mourning and grief and pain and feelings of loss or that we didn't talk about our mourning or our pain or our grief or our grief or our, feelings of loss. Of course, that's not true. It's still a huge part of our life. And, you know, one doesn't recover from the kind of breakup that I've gone through with the Daily Wire quickly. You know, I wouldn't say like, oh, man, that was a hard few weeks or that was a hard few months.

No, it's hard today. And so, of course, we process those things together and we talk about those things together. But she's just never made her burden, my burden, or she's never, maybe a different way of saying it is she's never made her burden about it, the central burden. Because I think that she knows and understands that while she did lose very real and very important things in her life, she lost them by way of my direct loss. And so she's allowed, I guess just allowed that to be my loss. My wife had a very successful career, which is actually kind of an amazing story. She started as a temp assistant at a TV network in Hollywood. over 22 years, which in Hollywood, no, you don't stay anywhere for very long.

It's a if you stay somewhere for two or three or four years, right? She stayed at the same network for 22 years. Yeah, that's crazy. And raised to be, you know, in management at the company, an SVP over most of the programming of the company, programming, nine different domestic TV networks. I mean, she had a really impressive run. And I suppose that if something similar had happened to her in that situation, I would have experienced enormous loss, but it wouldn't have been my loss.

it would have been hers. And that's how this was. She experienced enormous loss, but she allowed it to be my loss. And, you know, another beautiful thing about my wife, and I would say this to anyone who wants to be an entrepreneur or a creative or a creator, because they're all the same thing.

A creator and an entrepreneur, all an entrepreneur is someone who's creating something in the business domain. And when we'd say a creator, we just mean an entrepreneur in the creative domain, these are fairly interchangeable. When we set out to take the kinds of real, that are inherent to the work that we do when we set out to make ourselves vulnerable

in the ways that we have to make ourselves vulnerable in order to succeed. You just have to have someone who will allow you that. Women like security. Men are primarily motivated by ego. Women are primarily motivated by security, like in a fundamental sense. So, of course, my wife likes knowing that there's going to be a paycheck. She never asked me about it, though, after leaving the Daily Wire. She just trusted that I would solve that problem, even though she had left her job to be a full-time mom.

And so it's kind of a funny turn of a minute. She had left her job less than a year before things fell apart for me at the Daily Wire. But she didn't lead with any of that insecurity. She just trusted that, you know, A, trusted that God guides our footsteps in his, is ultimately leading us, but then trusted me to lead our family and to solve those problems. And because she did, because she does, I think I will. That's one of the kind of mysteries about marriage is that you actually can't directly change the other person.

But you have this amazing ability to indirectly change them by doing what you're supposed to do in the relationship. I meet a lot of young women who are like, and I say, do you trust your husband? And they'll say, well, no, he's not very trustworthy. And so I didn't ask if you as trustworthy. I asked if you trusted him. The strange mystery of marriage is that men become trustworthy in response to trust. They don't become trustworthy to earn your trust.

They become trustworthy because you trust them. And there's something similar with women. Men sacrifice in love for their wives, not because their wives are lovable. Their wives become lovable in response to their love. And so I think that Anne has a real wisdom. sort of always understood that if she focuses on being a good wife, that it gives me the best shot that I've got at being a good husband. And that's one of the things I appreciate about her. That is one of the most beautiful and best pieces of marriage advice we've ever had on this show.

So that is so lovely. And I'm obsessed with everything you just said. Can politics save a culture that has already become spiritually or artistically empty? No. But it can help. Andrew Breitbart famously says, politics is downstream of culture. And that's one of those things that's profoundly true, but it's not completely true. You know, our policy has a great deal to do with what happens within our culture as well. You know, the door does swing both ways. And so I do think that politics can help to put up slightly better guardrails. It can help to correct some of the worst excesses and point us in a better direction. But politics can't save us. It never could. We weren't a healthy culture because of our politics. If anything, we've had healthier politics in the past because of our culture.

But that doesn't mean that there aren't policy changes that would have an enormous positive impact on the culture in the country there are. While we should, of course, be focusing on fixing the culture from the point of view of the culture, I don't think that it's wrong to think that there are some policy solutions that can be useful to the effort as well. So what is the Republican movement now? Is it a populist movement? Is it a libertarian movement, nationalist, religious, or something entirely new. It doesn't know. You know, for most of my life, there's been a fairly cohesive conservative movement. And right now is the least cohesive that the conservative movement has ever been. I think one could argue that there is not currently a conservative movement.

There are conservative movements. There are sundry movements happening, which coalesced in the election of Donald Trump, particularly in 2024, but which are sort of at odds with each other in some very real ways. somewhat disparate in some very real ways. Future electoral success is going to come down to the question of can we write that? Can we re-coel us? Or is it going to require defeat to actually break us of some of the – it's funny to say break us of the fracture. But, yeah, to incent us to come back together.

What does the 28 Republican voter want that the 2016 Republican voter didn't? Well, I might say it differently. Okay. I'm not particularly concerned with what. what the voter wants. Because what people think they want and what they actually want are very often not the same. I'm concerned with what the Republican voter actually wants, what they want underneath the thing that they think that they want.

You know, what we want at the surface is usually oppositional, which is why we do so poorly when we win. When Joe Biden's president, the Republicans do great. We all unite. We fight. We go score victories. We win. Because it's oppositional.

we want not to lose. When you're in victory, much more difficult, because now you actually have to want the thing that you actually want. And the sort of superficial thing that politicians and pundits want to rally us around, the sort of id, the thing that we think that we want, is no longer in play. But it's a really good opportunity to look at what underlies all of that. What's the thing that we actually want? What's the thing that we're actually striving for or hoping for that we sometimes can't even articulate? I think that the future of the movement right now is about speaking to that. It's about speaking to the thing that people don't know what they want because they don't have language for it yet.

But they all know that something is broken. They all know that something is missing. And it's not just the battle with the left. It's happening in the battle on the right. And I think that what people want right now is a vision, is an affirmative, positive vision for the country. And it's not being offered to them right now by almost any faction within the Republican coalition. There's a lot of people trying to use the oppositional energy that's inherent to politics. And since we don't have a left to point it at, at least not an ascendant powerful left right now to point it at, we're pointing it at each other. Each faction is trying to move it, move the oppositional impulse within the movement to be against other people, you know, who are broadly right of center.

But I think what the audience wants underneath is to know, is there a better future possible for this country? Are our best days behind us? Is it true that we just failed to preserve the greatest experiment in human history? Is human flourishing still possible? Are we all about to lose our jobs? Are we about to lose our nation? Have we already lost our nation? Do my children have any chance of living the American dream? Do my children even have any chance of coming to adulthood, believing in fundamental biological reality? These are the kinds of concerns that people have. And if we only try to address those concerns through the language of opposition, well, we can't win because we're not in opposition. We're in leadership right now. We are the

party that controls the presidency, the House, the Senate, the Supreme Court. Who is it exactly that we're opposing on these issues? Why aren't we scoring any victories while we control the government? The answer is because we don't have that affirmative vision. So what happens when a tuba player, a school teacher, and a naked horse dentist walk into a bar? I have no idea. I wasn't there. But I do know what happens when you eat masa chips. Everything in life suddenly makes slightly more sense. Masa chips are crispy, crunchy, totally. Totally addicting made from high quality masa that actually takes like corn, not chemicals, like those other chips. And the flavor, perfect for salsa, guac, casso, nachos, or just shoving into your face while scrolling X angrily at 2 a.m.

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That's Masa Chips.com, code real Alex Clark for 25% off your first order or buy in any store at any sprouts nationwide. I'm incredibly particular about where I buy meat. In fact, I'm probably more obsessive about sourcing meat than almost anything else in my kitchen. Because if I'm spending money on high quality food. I don't just want to know what animal it came from. I want to know how it was raised, what it ate, whether it spent its life on pasture and whether I'm supporting the kind of farming that I actually want more of in the world, and also getting the most for such expensive meat, right? Meat isn't cheap. So if I'm going to be spending a lot of money, I want to make sure that I'm getting all of the nutrients that I want to get for me and my family. That's why I love

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which is like the biggest fraud of all. That can mean a tiny door to a concrete yard. These chickens with wild pastures spend their days outdoors on fresh pasture eating bugs and foraging the way chickens are supposed to. Everything at wild pastures is sourced from American family farms. Everything is non-GMO. Everything is raised using regenerative farming practices that helps restore soil instead of depleting it. What really impressed me is that wild pastures makes this level quality, very affordable. Typically, 25 to 40% less than what you'd expect to pay for premium regenerative meat because they cut out the middleman. Guys, this is the cleanest, best meat and the least expensive that you can find shipped right to you. Honestly, once you've tasted

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Well, I think it's a bad moment because conservative media right now, as we said at the beginning of the conversation, is sort of in love with yesterday's tools. We're in love with the things that got us here. And what got us here is dated social media platforms and oppositional political instincts. So I don't hear a lot of people speaking an affirmative vision for the future of the country right now. I think that's why we're in the shape that we're in. I think that Donald Trump sort of constitutionally doesn't do it. Even MAGA, Make America Great Again, is a sort of backward-looking orientation. It's useful because we all know that there's something that we've lost.

But the next stage of successful Republican governance has to be looking ahead. It's not make America great again. It's like bring forward America's greatness into the future. It's not catchy or pithy. I don't have the marketing chops of the Donald Trump. But somewhere in there is the thing that we have to tap into and discover. It's rejecting this black pill nonsense. It's rejecting a politics of despair.

It's believing in a hopeful vision of the country. It's taking the white pill. You want to know my Gen Z is like going crazy and wanting to tear down all the institutions because they don't believe there's any hope for the future. And people who don't believe that there's hope for the future doesn't create. They only destroy. That's why Charlie was so passionate right before he died trying to make the ability to buy a home more realistic. Because when you have that, you own property, you can start a family.

You know, it just kind of goes down the line. It has this domino effect of positivity and hope and being engaged in your country and wanting your country to succeed. He was super passionate about that. Whose career are you looking at right now and thinking they get it? It's hard not to be impressed over the last couple of months with Marco Rubio. Obviously, he's an exceptional secretary of state slash national security advisors slash czar of Venezuela or whatever all of his job titles are. In and of itself, that just means that he's good at his jobs. Man, that's not enough.

What I'm really responding to is basically since his little session in the White House press briefing through the video that he released last week as part of Rededicate 250, he's starting to speak with an eye toward the future. He's starting to speak about the future of the country aspirationally. I think more people need to follow his lead and do that. I'm not endorsing the guy for president. I'm not weighing in on who's going to win 2028. I think that a lot of that's going to come down to who Donald Trump, is his successor, and it's unclear yet if that's going to be J.D. Vance or Marco Rubio or some guy we haven't even heard of. You never really know what's going to happen with Donald Trump in two and a half years is a long time in Donald Trump's America. But I think that J.D. Vance has not done a great job so far of rallying the Trump coalition and painting that affirmative vision for the future. I think in some ways he's still running the sort of oppositional playbook because he's extraordinarily gifted at the oppositional playbook. But now you're the vice president. Now you're part of the governing party.

If he wants to be the nominee and be victorious in 2028, he has to think about what that positive affirmative vision for the future of the country is. And listen, a stalking horse candidate could find their way into the race, too, who's outside of Donald Trump's coalition. And their only chance of winning is going to be if they have a positive affirmative vision. I'll tell you what, isn't going to win. The sort of Groyper, Burn It All Down coalition isn't going to win. the sort of Tucker, you know, the elites have lied to us. Our entire history is a lie. That's not going to win. Why does it seem like people like Nick Flandes, Tucker, Carlson, Candace Owens, they're all sounding like the left.

What is this? It's like they have more in common with the left than the right. To say they kind of lumps them all into a category that I'm not sure they all belong in. I think each one of them is sort of a disparate and unique case. You know, Candice wants to be rich and famous. and she's going to do the things that she thinks make that goal more likely. I mean, she's already very rich and she's already very famous, so I shouldn't say more likely, but is going to sustain and grow her wealth and her fame. I think that she's essentially non-ideological.

I don't think that ideology is one of her top three priorities. I don't know Tucker well, but I do wonder in what way is Tucker of the right. He's certainly socially conservative as far as I can tell, but on economic policy for years now, he's essentially. been owning the socialist positions on almost every economic policy issue. He speaks exactly like a Bernie Sanders or a Liz Warren on issues of wealth and power and sort of elite influence in the country. He's part of the we shouldn't even have billionaires wing of the Democrat Party. I think Tucker's trying to forge a new political coalition in America that's left wing in its economic orientation and

right wing in its social orientation. I think that that's like it's a hell of a gamble. You know, maybe there is some giant new majority, a permanent majority that can be formed that way. I'm skeptical. We have a two-party system. I don't think that it's going to work, but I think that it is largely what he's doing. And, you know, Nick Fuentes, I do think Nick Fuentes has, of the three of them, has the great chance of attaining personal political power, but it's a complete hell-marry pass. It's like, almost certainly, Nick Quintez never gets elected dog catcher. Or he'll be the president. Like, he's certainly tapped into something with Gen Z. He certainly has, like, a movement that's that's sort of taken shape around him and that elevates him as its de facto leader in a way that the other two

don't. Could Tucker Carlson run for president? I suppose he could. I don't think that's what he's going to do, but I could be wrong. So I think, but Fuentes could. I think either Fueness or Tucker does run for president. This is what I predict. I think they do run for president, knowing they probably won't win with a lot of these fringe ideas, but it's just to get a platform where no one can interrupt you on a national stage and you're allowed to share these ideas. Because to them, like, that's the most important thing is just converting more minds and bodies into what. whatever their ideology is. I think what is so frustrating to me about Nick,

and I started when I was 18 a career in radio. I've been in media since I was 18 years old. I think Nick Fuentes is a superstar. Oh, yeah. It is so frustrating to me seeing what he's done with his life in his career because if he wouldn't have gone down this Joker type of career path, like I think he could have done incredible things for the conservative movement. I think he could have been one of the biggest talents.

I mean, I don't know. Maybe you disagree with me. Not at all. He's the most talented guy operating right now. Yeah, I see that talent in him. And I'm just like, why did you go down this path? I don't know. It's just frustrating.

It's a Hill Mary play. If it pays off, then he's the furor, right? It probably doesn't pay off. Probably he squandered that talent. He certainly squandered it from a moral perspective. Because the things that he advocates for and the things that he stands for are morally abysmal. Yep.

But that doesn't mean that there's no chance of them working for him politically. I suppose they could. I don't think they will, but I suppose they could. What are you building next?

The first thing that became possible for me to do is this show. And I have two real motives for doing the show. One is that it's better to be an object in motion than an object at rest.

I was sitting around with my wound. And that's not healthy. The longer you don't do, the harder it is to ever do again. And so I just sort of came to the realization that the first thing that was available to me, I was going to take it. This was the first thing available to me, and I took it. Is it independent? Are you with somebody? Independent. The other reason to do it is because of the questions that you're asking. You know, my my observations of the movement don't encourage me right now. I don't think anybody's laying out a positive

vision for the future of the country. I think people are starved for a positive vision for the future of the country. I think people, as I say, I think they don't know what they want because no one's kind of offered them any language to put around the ideas that they, they know something's missing. They don't have words for it. And so I'm really enjoying this opportunity to try to give words to the sort of feeling of hope and optimism that people still have for the future of the country. I think that that gives me the opportunity to do good while I'm in the stage of my life where this show is the thing that I'm focused on. The other thing I think is the show needs to succeed. You know, you only win by winning. Whatever I build next is going to be built out of the things that

I'm actually doing. And what I'm actually doing is the Jeremy Boring Show. So I'm trying to make the show as good as I can possibly make it. And the next move will be to try to make it as big as I can possibly make it. So what is the format? How often do you release episodes? Is it just you? Is it interviews? It's funny. It's actually three shows, which, because I'm a glutton for punishment, I thought, why launch one when you can launch three? So we release three episodes a week. One is a monologue. And I try to make the monologue, it's not news of the day. It's like take a big issue and say something definitive about it. And so it's a huge writing burden for me and for my team to work. We just work an idea. And of course, sometimes you get to the end and you have to throw it out because

you didn't get, you didn't find it. You know, you, you chopped away at the marble and you didn't find the elephant. But we're trying to find the kind of forward looking, motivating angle on the big ideas of our day that fill people with a sense of hope and of agency and of a belief that they can be constructive, that they're not just victims of the political circumstances of our time. Then on Wednesdays, we do a live show. And the live show has three. guests. So it's just me plus three people. Quite often, I know some of them. Quite often, I don't know any of them. And it's been an amazing thing for me because especially not only a year of isolation, but being the CEO is also isolating. You're like Taylor Swift when she went away

and then came back with her reputation era. Exactly. I think. And so I'm loving that. I'm loving getting to meet new people and build new relationships and engage in sort of extemporaneous conversations. And then on Fridays, it's a long-form interview show, which, you know, I'm bringing people into a really intimate environment. We have breakfast before we shoot the show. What? Yeah. Wow. I'm jipping my guess.

A whole breakfast who's cooking? Hey, I got water. You know, the truth is, I have a friend named Hannah, who's the best cook I've ever met. And half of the reason to do this was to have an excuse to ask her to come over once a week and make breakfast. This is brilliant. I need to steal this idea and have it be all maha friendly. Yeah, exactly. It's beautiful.

It's a wonderful opportunity to sit down with people who I usually don't know. We don't talk about anything that we're about to talk about on the show, which is kind of hard. You know, it's like, what do we talk about for the next 40 minutes that we're not going to then repeat? That is my number one rule. I won't sit with guests before we start recording for long periods of time because you inevitably talk about what they're there to talk about. That's impressive you can do that. And then when you do the show, you're bored. You're both bored.

Yes, because you just had this conversation. So we don't do that. So you wind up talking about the strangest things. You'll talk about their kids or their dog or... And this is all filmed? No, no, no. This is just breakfast. Wow.

But it, you know, it gives you the opportunity to know someone in a way that you wouldn't know them if they just came in and did the interview. Then we go into my study and we, most of the cameras are hidden and it's very unobtrusive and we just have a conversation. If you could offer one remedy to heal a sick culture, physically, emotionally or spiritually, what would it be? Obviously, there's only the gospel. you know, the cure for everything that L's man is found in Christ. I find that people find that not to be a very satisfying answer because anyone could give that answer. Like, they don't feel like they're getting a unique Jeremy insight

if I say your hope is in the gospel of Jesus Christ, but your hope is in the gospel of Jesus Christ. If you want something that's sort of a unique Jeremy perspective on, you know, once we've established the gospel of Jesus Christ, go to church, read your Bible, pray, and put your faith in Christ and not in yourself. The next thing that I would say is we have this beautiful thing because of the gospel

and because of our system of government. We're the most unique people in the world because we're Christians on the one hand, and the Bible says it's for freedom that Christ has made us free. And we're Americans, on the other hand, in which we've been given freedom as our birthright preserved for us by all of our forebears going back

all the way to the Declaration of Independence. were the most therefore free people who've ever existed. And freedom is an amazingly liberating gift. It gives you the ability to fail. It gives you the ability to make mistakes. It gives you the ability to be hurt, which is why we fear it. People don't love freedom. You know, in the early days of the 2000s,

there was this like the heart of man yearns for freedom, sort of George Bush view of human anthropology. And I think that he's right in one sense, which is there is a part of the world. of the heart of man that longs for freedom. But that part is almost always subordinate to the part that says, would that we were slaves again in Egypt? Which is what the Israelites actually said when they were led out of slavery. Yet every moment of hardship, they wish that they were slaves again. Because slaves have security. When you're a slave, you know where your next mail is going to come from.

You know what you have to do in order to get. And freedom says you don't always know what to do in order to get. You don't have that direct cause and effect always in motion. You don't always know the right outcome. You don't always know the right decision. You just have to act. And that's terrifying. Freedom's the most terrifying state that a human can find themselves in. And yet, because you're free, because you have freedom to try and you have freedom to fail at a level that no humans in the history of the world have ever had, you have an obligation to try and an obligation to fail. You have an obligation to put one foot in front of the other, even when you don't know, to reach out and feel your way forward through the mist, reaching for something transcendent and something better.

If we sit here bitching about the government, if we sit here bitching about how things haven't gone our way for 40 years in this culture, what have we conserved, I want to tear things down, I'm mad, I'm angry. You have plenty of reasons to feel that way for all the good it's going to do you. The only thing that's going to do you any good or your children any good or your family any good or your community any good or your country any good is to go use some of that freedom you've got to try and to fail. and get back up and try again. That's it.

I know that this whole next chapter that you're in was not what you're expecting, and it's been super painful and everything. But I have to say, it's such a treat to interview you. I love listening to you be interviewed. I love hearing your insights on politics and culture. I'm really hype about your show. I'm rooting for you, and I really appreciate your candor and your vulnerability today. So thank you for coming on Culture Apothecary.

Thank you for having me. Whether people agree with Jeremy or strongly disagree with him, I think one thing that makes conversations like this important is that they force us to ask what we're actually building long term, not just what we're reacting to. This is one of my favorite interviews from this year by a landslide. If you agree and you really liked it too, please don't forget to leave a five-star review for us on Apple or Spotify that tremendously supports the show and the work my team does to get these episodes out. Continue the discussion in the Kut-Servative's Facebook group. New episodes drop Mondays and Thursdays at 6 p.m. Pacific, 9 p.m. Eastern, anywhere you get your

podcasts or Real Alex Clark on YouTube. Make sure you subscribe. I'm Alex Clark and this is Culture Apothecary.