Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark - “My Ex Is Trying To Turn My Son Non-Binary.” -A Father’s Plea With Harrison Tinsley

Episode Date: September 8, 2023

Harrison Tinsley fell in love with a stranger. She got pregnant. Then the unthinkable happened: she declared their son was non-binary. Now this California dad is in a fight for his son’s life. Whether you have heard this story or it’s your first time, Alex asks the details you’ll want to hear in this parental rights horror story.Follow Harrison on IG.Consider donating to help Harrison fight for Sawyer. •For delicious, Real American Meat Delivered, head to Good Ranchers and use code CLARK...

you do if you broke up with someone you had a child with? And they attempted to change your child's gender against your will. This is a reality for my guest today. He's 31, lives in the Bay Area of California, and his ex-girlfriend started insisting that their son was non-binary and used they-them pronouns before he was two years old. Now this boy is three, and his dad has been in the legal battle of a lifetime fighting for full custody in the trans sanctuary state of California. What's even scarier is he's discovered there are a lot of parents across the country in the same position as him. On the surface, this is a story about the tendrils of gender ideology that is out for blood literally and figuratively. But this is also a cautionary tale on making sure that anyone

you sleep with is someone that you would want to raise a child with if that were to happen. in. Subscribe to The Spillover if you're not already, wherever you get your podcast and Real Alex Clark on YouTube, if you want to watch the episodes and get more content from me, leave a five-star review and remember to check the show notes for links pertinent to my guests and the show. Please welcome Harrison Tinsley, a father fighting for his son's life on The Spillover. Your son's mother is insisting that your three-year-old son is non-binary without your consent. What you are experiencing, what you are living through, is a horror story. I mean, it's a nightmare. But I want to start at the beginning. What year was it

when you met Sawyer's mom? We met in 2018. Okay. And then you had him, I mean, shortly after, how long were you guys dating before he was born? We dated for about 10 months and about half of that she was pregnant. And what was your first impression of her when you met her? When I met her, I was in Pacifica, California. It's a beach town outside of San Francisco. And I was, at karaoke, I was singing songs, and I was singing like my favorite song to sing, which is Mr. Brightside. And I was singing it. And I saw this beautiful blonde girl. And so I was kind of singing the song and like pointing out her and being silly. And that's how we met. I thought she was beautiful. And we were laughing together. She sang songs also. She was a wonderful singer. I got her phone number. And yeah,

and then shortly after we started dating. How soon after that karaoke night did you text her to go out again? I surprised her a day or two after by showing up at her play she was doing. She's an actress. So she was doing a play, My Fair Lady right there in Pacifica. And I showed up and she was shocked to see me. I bought flowers. And yeah, it was pretty cool. And so how long after dating did she get pregnant?

It was only a few months into dating. Were you guys official or just seeing each other? We were official. Okay. Probably like four months. Had you talked about things like religious views, politics, anything like that in those four months? Somewhat for sure. Yeah, we never agreed politically.

She was always more on the left and I was always more on the right. But I didn't think that that was like a deal breaker. I thought we could just agree to disagree on some things. Why did you think that you could agree to disagree? Because she just didn't seem like she was that solid in her beliefs or you didn't think the things that she had opinions on were that big of a deal? That's a good question. I try to see the good in people, and I tried to view it as her compassion was the reason she believed those things, whether I believe they were right or wrong.

And I obviously didn't believe that she would do anything harmful to her own children or anything like that. Do you remember what some of the strong political opinions were that she had? Yeah, I do. She was very pro-abortion. She was very pro-transgender, really anti-gun. those were the biggest three I remember us disagreeing on. If we had conversations with each other about those things,

I would never initiate them because I didn't want the drama, but she would get very upset very quickly. And so it wasn't good for us to discuss them too often. Did she ever disclose to you that she herself struggled with mental health issues? Yeah, I was aware that she had some mental health issues. I didn't know exactly what or how severe they were. So she didn't say, like, I've been diagnosed with X, Y, and Z, for example. She did not.

I did find out later, but I knew she had some prescription medications, and she was clearly up and down a lot. What did you assume when you guys got together that her sexual orientation was? I assumed that she was a straight girl. And is that what she described to you, or did she ever allude to being anything else? One time she said she was bisexual, and we got in some sort of. of an argument because I said, really? That doesn't, yeah, that doesn't make much sense. You know, you're with me. And I felt that she was maybe trying to, like, make me jealous of, like, when she's hanging out

with girls, as opposed to just when she's with guys or something like that. But I'm not sure. You know, that's how she said she feels. And in those four months before she got pregnant, did you notice little things like that that she would try to purposely push your buttons to make you jealous or incite you in some way? Yeah, she would, she would do that quite often. And she even admitted to me that she did that sometimes. Once she got pregnant, what was the dynamic like between the two of you? Were you both excited that she was pregnant? How did she feel?

How did you feel? I was so thankful because we were both absolutely ecstatic. To her credit, she was all in right away. So was I completely happy. We were both stoked when we found out it was a boy. It was all amazing. And that was obviously a worry of mine because, as I just told you before, we disagreed on things like abortion.

So that's a worry you have, right? a guy sometimes. And so I was super stoked that we were both just happy. And she never was like, ooh, I don't want to have this child. I don't want to go through with this pregnancy. She was excited. And she acknowledged that the gender was a boy. She acknowledged that the gender was a boy in a certain way. Like she still gave little hints like, how did she phrase it? Like I remember she was excited the day we found out he was a boy. We were both super stoked on that. We found out super early. like earlier than I realized you could find that out actually. And she said something like, gender is a social construct, but my baby has a penis.

I remember her saying that once, but she was happy it was a boy. She wanted to go through the pregnancy, even though she was somebody who was pro-choice, and she gets pregnant with a guy that she's only been dating for four months. She was still like, oh, no, like there was no doubt that she wanted to have this baby and be a mom and everything. She was super enthusiastic and positive and happy about it, as was I, which was wonderful. There was a time, though, where we were first trying to get her a doctor for the pregnancy stuff. And she mentioned once, and this could have been just to push my buttons, I don't know, but going to planned parenthood, which I begged her not to. She's like, I can get my pregnancy care there.

And I was like, most of them. No, you can't. First of all. Apparently, there's a few that do, but it's like 99% of them don't. And they'd obviously try to coerce you into doing what they want, which is an abortion. So I begged her not to. She didn't, thankfully, end up going. Yeah.

And we found a normal doctor for her to go to. As the pregnancy went on, what sorts of things was your ex-s saying to you during the pregnancy that were concerning to you? As an example, when she first posted to Facebook that she was pregnant, she didn't mention me, for one, which was slightly hurtful. But for two, she said, you know, baby Sawyer do in December, I'll love you whether you're a boy or girl or neither. Did you say anything to her about that? Yeah. So what did you say? We had multiple discussions where we would talk about it. Were you just like, why would you say that?

Yeah, yeah. And she would bring it up to me sometimes too. Like, what if our kids transgender? Like, what would you do? And I'd like, yeah, that's like a one in a million chance. And I wouldn't like affirm a delusion of my child. Once they're 18, they can do what they want. But I would never be okay with that. And then she would get very, very upset and have sort of a, in my opinion, a manic episode. very serious upset when we'd talk about those things. And how long would those episodes last? It depended, but they could last pretty long. Did you ever worry about her harming herself or somebody else in those episodes?

Oh, definitely. There was multiple times where she attempted or fake attempted suicide while we were dating, including while she was pregnant one time. And so at that point were you starting to think, I'm nervous? I mean, when did it become a reality for you? like, I'm nervous about having a kid with this person. Like, were you still hopeful at that point? I'm an optimist, so I was definitely still hopeful, but worried about my kid's safety.

That was most of the time. You know, she got placed on a 5150 once. Well, she was right when she first found out she was pregnant, maybe like a month after. Which is an involuntary psychiatric hold, right? And so how long was she in the 5150? So I wasn't there for the event, but it was allegedly she was trying to, to throw herself in front of traffic. I wasn't there. I don't know what happened. And she was held for three days. She called me from the place. And what was the reason that she gave for that behavior?

She just said like her mental health. And she was sounding pretty positive when I talked to her. I can't wait to have the baby all that, which was good to hear. But it was, of course, scary. I find it interesting that she was posting things like, you know, this baby's going to be so loved, whether it's a girl, boy, or they, them, or whatever. And saying, things to you like, well, what would you do if this baby is transgender? What is the likelihood that she was asking you things like that because she was planning on transitioning your son before he was even born? I can't speak for her, but I would say it's at least a possibility. When would you say that the relationship, the dating relationship between the two of you ended? Three or four months into her

pregnancy. And so at that point, what did you guys talk about, like what was going to happen once the baby came? Well, she kept constantly threatening me like, oh, you're not going to see Sawyer if you're not, you know, exactly who she wanted me to be particularly in a political sense. You know, like if you, like I have a song called Be Brave. She was said, in your song, you say like, you'd rather stand for something, you know, than do nothing. And why aren't you at the Women's March then? I was like, because that's not something I believe in. And so she would take things that, that I had written and use them against me. But yeah, yeah, at least, we agreed on my son's name, Sawyer. I thought that was pretty cool. We agreed on that. It's a great name. Yep, it is. But I was constantly just getting threatened. Like, you're not going to see Sawyer if this or that. Almost every single day, I would hear that for one reason or another.

So while she was pregnant, if she's constantly threatening you, since you don't have my political views, you're not going to be able to see my son. Were you consulting with friends and family saying, hey, I am nervous once I have this baby that she's going to try to keep him from me because we don't see eye to politically. Like, were you starting to worry about that yet? I didn't think she would actually do that. And I don't know if that was naively or not. But I just thought that's such a horrible thing that no one would do that to somebody.

But I was wrong. What were your friends and family telling you? Were you letting them know what was going on with her? Just my immediate family and closest friends. Yeah, they were obviously all worried. They were skeptical, I'd say, of everything and wondering if I made the best choices. And so once the baby comes, what was your relationship like with her on the day that he was born?

The day that he was born, I was not there. I didn't hear about it. I didn't know about it. Because she didn't tell you on purpose? She didn't tell me on purpose. So she had broken up with me. She had sent me a cease and desist letter from her attorney, I believe. That said what?

Do not speak to her or her family at all. For what reason? Didn't give a reason. Just out of nowhere. Yes. So she broke up with me. She demanded, as we're broken up, talking a little bit, barely keeping me informed about the pregnancy, that we must go to couples counseling, which at first I was like, no way. You know, I don't really believe in that.

But you guys had been broken up. Yeah, but she was saying, like, so that we could at least have a family together or be together or something. And I actually made an appointment finally because it got to a point where I was like, I'm not going to not see my son. And I'd do anything for him, including this. And I made an appointment, and she bailed on going. sent me a really long, crazy message. I set up another appointment. She bailed a second time, and after that second time, I received the cease and desist letter.

Saying that you were not allowed to speak to her or contact her? Correct. And how far along was she in her pregnancy when you got that cease and desist? Roughly halfway. Were you scared? Like, what if I can't find out when my child is going to be born? Of course, but I didn't know what to do. It's not something that's very common knowledge, you know?

So was that the point that you decided I need to seek my own legal help once you got that cease and desist? It happened a little bit later. Okay. I was trying to figure out what to do after that. So how long after your son was born then, did you find out that he had even been born? It was roughly a week after from social media, one of her friends let me know. I'm thankful for that. And that was heartbreaking, obviously.

Yeah. To see a little picture of your baby boy and you weren't there. And it came out later even on cross-examination of the doctor. that was there at the birth, my attorney was cross-examining this doctor on the witness stand during our trial. And the doctor said that my son's mom claimed she had a restraining order against me the day my son was born, which wasn't true at all. It was completely made up. But just in case I showed up or something. When your ex's friend notified you that your baby had been born, how did it feel for you knowing that you weren't there for that moment?

Just heart wrenching. You know you hear stories about people that do the most amazing things, whether they're rock stars, they're a green beret. They did some awesome accomplishment that was thought impossible before they did it, triple backflip on their snowboard. But all those people, when you ask them what the best day of their life is, isn't when they did that. They all say the day my kid was.

boring. So it was it was hard to deal with. Have you even fully processed that now, years later? I like to think that I've done a good job at facing down my demons and working at keeping them at bay. Yeah. Tell me about your first Father's Day as a dad to Sawyer. My very first Father's Day, I was with all of my family, gathered together, celebrating me and my dad. It was my first Father's Day. I hadn't yet met my son, but we were all celebrating me anyways. And my sister had gotten some balloons, and one of which read, Greatest Dad in the Universe. And it sounds like a silly little thing, but I remember in that moment not even having Matt Sawyer, just saying, I swear to God, I'm going to live up to that balloon. And I feel that I've done that and that I'll always be that for

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the link in the description. How long after his birth was it before you got to be? even meet him. So I find out that he was born. It took about two months for me to get the legal help and figure out what to do. And I filed two months later in San Francisco Family Court, the South Help Center, filed all this stuff, established paternity, custody, visitation, lots of paperwork. And after that, it was a long battle. It was right during COVID. And it took 13 more months just to meet him. Oh my gosh. So I finally met Sawyer when he was 15 months old. It's very unfortunate.

Over a year old. And what was that meeting like? Where were you? Where did you go to meet him for the first time? I was at her parents' house. It was my mom came with me. It was one of the best days of my life. It was just like magic all through the air.

There was, so I met him and it's just like, you know, miracle frequency. You just feel it. You know, it's kind of like you're at the beach. You kind of get that magical feeling. Like you just feel it. It's just everywhere. And me and him are looking at each other's eyes. It's like we both.

know how special we are to each other just right away. We're doing headstands together and playing and laughing. And he had to take a nap that day because he's pretty young. So I put him down for his nap. He was fighting it. He wanted me right next to him to lay with him or he wouldn't sleep. So he was making a big fuss about it. I guess it was common that he made a fuss about his nap. I finally got him to sleep. And I remember I was looking at him laying there napping. And I hadn't seen him for 15 months. and I'd been through all this trauma, and it just all hit me as he was sleeping. I was laying there on the ground next to his crib just staring at my beautiful baby boy. And I just, I started crying.

I almost never cry in my life, but this was like an uncontrollable weep that I've never felt before. It was just so much emotion hitting me at once. You had already been fighting so hard, too, for all those months since he had been born. then in that moment, did the fight become even more real being there? Absolutely. I was like, this is everything. And I'm assuming you got to visit him and she was not there. Correct. Right. So after that, did you establish a certain schedule for how often you would get to see your son?

I started seeing him once a week, then twice a week on the weekends. And it was amazing every time I would drive from Tahoe to the Bay Area just to spend the day with him or two days. The first ones had to be supervised, which wasn't very fun and happy. They weren't professionally supervised, thankfully, but it would be someone of her choosing, so it would be her friend or her parent. And it was very weird having somebody watch you. Yeah. And they're taking notes, trying to find something wrong you're doing. Did that make connecting with him difficult? I got through it and didn't let it affect me, but it was hard to not let it. There was a lot of

weird stuff. You know, they would make weird demands of me and they'd be taken notes. There was one time my mom and sister were with me. We had a hotel south San Francisco right by this body of water. Super cool. There's this walking trail that goes around the water. So we came out of the hotel to go for a walk with him. And one of her dads was there being the supervisor. And he said, oh, you guys go ahead. I'm going to smoke a cigarette. So he sat at a bench while we walked ahead, half mile, a quarter mile, I don't know. And we're playing with Sawyer. We walked for a little bit and got to this kind of big circle area where we were just playing with him. He was climbing and jumping off stuff. And my sister tells me, like, he's watching us from the bushes. So for some reason, her dad had

hung back and then came up on us, sat in bushes so that we couldn't see him to try to watch us from bushes. Did you confront him? My sister got pictures of it, and we showed the court even, but it was just super weird, such a weird feeling knowing that someone was doing that for no reason than a dad just trying to spend time with his kid. How long did it take after your son was born for your ex to start insisting that this baby was non-binary? To the best of my knowledge, she actually treated him as a boy for the first year and a half of his life or so from what I saw on social media and stuff and some of her pictures would say he's a boy, right?

I love clean boy snuggles, all this stuff like that. So she was referring to him as a boy, which is interesting. But it's right around the time I won half custody that she started to say he's non-binary. And that's when I saw some photos of her putting him in dresses and makeup. And that was very unsettling. A three-year-old. No, he was much younger. He was actually still one.

It was right before he turned two, actually, when I started seeing that. It's interesting that you say that all started happening once you got half custody. Is there any part of you that feels like your ex was weaponizing your son's gender as a way for her to retaliate to hurt your feelings once you got half custody? I can't speak for her, but I do think it's a possibility, yes. When you saw that first post on social media of your toddler son in a dress and makeup, what went through your mind? I felt sick to my stomach and that I had to save him from that. Did you immediately know this was gender ideology stuff or were you like, oh, this is just like a one-time thing, silly dress up? No, I knew it was gender ideology stuff being forced on him.

Did you immediately text her, call her, call somebody? I'm sure I told some people close to me. I didn't speak to her. We only speak on a court app about very specific stuff. So you see your ex. basically transitioning your child or whatever on social media. And you're not even allowed, your hands are tied. You're not even allowed to say anything about it. Yeah. I mean, I presented it to court later on, but I just try to document everything that

happens and do my best to provide that to the court. Was this an overnight declaration on her end, like seemingly out of nowhere that, oh, by the way, our son is non-binary? Or were there instances that led up to this like social media post or announcement that she had made. Besides our conversations in the post when she was pregnant, I hadn't seen anything to suggest that that was going to happen until then. It was just all of the sudden she's, she's posting the child, a boy in dresses and makeup and things like that. Was she using certain non-binary pronouns for your son? Yeah, she was saying they and she still says they, which is super weird.

That's like referring to multiple people. So once you did bring up in court, you were like, hey, my ex is, you know, posting about my son being non-binary. I don't know anything about this. Once this was first brought up, how did she respond? What was her, you know, defense of this behavior that she was doing? What I noticed from when we dated to when we broke up to having our child, she went from dating me to presumably to presumably being a straight woman to then she said

that she was a lesbian mom to Sawyer. And then she started identifying as non-binary herself. And I don't know if that plays into when it seemed around the time that she was putting that onto Sawyer. And I also came out with a song for Sawyer that I wrote called It's a Boy. And that was right around the time that she started doing that as well. So I don't know if either of those two things play into it, but it seems plausible. So is she posting herself on social media with her own like appearance changes or anything?

I believe so, yeah. Okay. So she, like, looks totally different now than what she looked like whenever you started dating. She's cut her hair and stuff, I'm assuming? Yeah, correct. Wow. So was that shocking to you?

Yeah, it's kind of a weird feeling. And to your knowledge, is she in a relationship with a woman or anything? Not to my knowledge, but I'm not sure. What is her evidence that your three-year-old son is non-binary? I don't believe she has any evidence to that. My son adamantly says he's a boy, believes he's a boy, knows he's a boy, wants to be a boy, loves being a little boy. He's like the most masculine of all of his friends.

It's so sad that anyone would want to take that from him. So there's no evidence. I think it's more just the premise that children should be able to choose for themselves. Okay, so she doesn't say, she doesn't have any documented instances that she's sharing with the court saying things like, well, on this occasion, he said this, for example. And on this occasion, he told me that he was this. So she doesn't have anything like that. It's just I think children should be able to choose their gender. That's my guess. But even with that premise, if we grant it, which I radically disagree with it,

it's nonsense. It's insane. But if we granted it, my son says he's a boy. So shouldn't you accept his choice? If that's your own premise, that's what I don't understand why this is still going on. That's interesting. So what you're saying is that you are the parent that is actually affirming the gender that your child says that he asks. Yep, I'm the affirming parent in this situation. And so what is her answer to your son saying, things like I'm a boy. I'm not there when they communicate. I don't speak to her very much. It sounds like they get into arguments, though, from what I hear from him and some messages she sent me before. And they get in arguments over him saying he's a boy. They get arguments of him telling

her she's a girl. What were the arguments that she described to you in text communication? There was one I remember. She sent me a long text calling me a bigot and every name in the book talking about how Sawyers keeps saying I'm a girl and it's all your fault. Blah, blah, blah. He bit me. It was horrifying sounding. I couldn't even believe she had said it on the court app, you know, admitting to get into physical altercation with him.

And it was just so scary that she's arguing with a three-year-old over him saying his mom's a girl. It's just observing basic reality. And she said that trying to talk with him or communicate with this three-year-old over the gender stuff, he actually bitter. allegedly. Like he had a physical, allegedly, a physical reaction to, I am sick of this. To me, that feels like emotional turmoil coming out in a physical way. Right.

Does she currently still, to this day, even amidst the litigation and all of this legal battle, is she still saying that your son is non-binary and posting this way on social media? I don't see her social media anymore. But to the best of my knowledge, yes. She still refers to him as they sometimes when I pick him up, et cetera. which is super weird. She has slipped up before and called him a he, like a Freudian slip or something, but yeah, she's still going with it for some reason.

Do you think it's possible that she's just a very stubborn person who now that she's like involved in this fight, she's like, well, I'm not going back now. Like, I'm just going to keep this ruse up, even though she likely knows he is a boy. It's a good question. I'm not sure the answer to it. In your opinion, do you believe that your ex is committing child abuse

in regards to your three-year-old son? I won't make any definitive statements on if someone's committing child abuse or not. But what I will say is if it's not considered child abuse to confuse kids with gender ideology, I believe that it should be. How often does she have your son and how often do you get to see him at this point? I have them half the time and she has him half the time. What does her family say? Do they agree with her and think that this three-year-old could be non-binary?

I don't know what her family believes. I imagine they must think it's somewhat crazy, although I do not know. her family is she has two dads she was adopted by but they're a lot older so i i would have thought that they wouldn't buy into something like this but i can't say for sure yeah because a lot of people that identify as gay or lesbian a lot of them even have a problem with this mentality or idea that a child can choose their own gender or that you should transition a minor medically or otherwise yeah gays against groomers LGBT without the tea walk away all these groups they don't want to be associated with it. And it's actually kind of taking gay people away if you think about it.

Yeah, it's kind of erasing the idea that you can be gay because if you have any of these types of thoughts or, you know, you lean a little bit more masculine, you lean a bit more feminine, then you're just saying, well, you just have to transition into being another gender entirely. Right, exactly. And so they disagree with that. What are some of the things that Sawyer has told you life is like with his mother? Sawyer's told me quite a few stories. You know, I always make sure to ask him what he did and everything. There was a time where Sawyer told me, Dada, it was right after his mom had taken him to Disneyland.

She told me that. He told me that. He told me that it was a couple months later. He said, Dada. When Mommy took me to Disneyland, and he was very sad sounding, and he kind of looked down at this next party, he's like, I couldn't go on the rides unless I wore my princess shoes. And I didn't want to wear princess shoes.

I wanted to wear boy shoes. And that was just heartbreaking that, you know, you would coerce a kid. You take him to the happiest place on earth and not let them go on the rides unless they wore what you want. wanted them to wear. Did she have your son in a full princess outfit get up to go to Disney? I don't know, but I've seen a picture where they're somewhere in a similar get-up to that, yeah. And he's dressed in girl clothes. When Sawyer said that to you, that Mommy wouldn't let me ride certain rides at Disney unless I had my girl's shoes on. How do you respond? What hurts your

soul, but you do your best to stay strong for your son. Do you remember what you said in that moment to them. I said, no matter what you wear, you'll always be a boy. And if people try to make you wear things that you don't want to wear, you say, no, I'm not going to wear that. I'm going to wear my boy shoes. That's what I want to wear. You can stand up for yourself, buddy. Something along those lines. And there's more stories, too. I mean, our recent one he told me, which was kind of heartbreaking, was, I had just picked him up and brought him home. One of his little friends was with us. They came with us for the pickup. We were in our backyard plane. He's like, dad at, when I wouldn't go to sleep. Mommy was getting mad that I wouldn't go to sleep. And she said, if you don't go to sleep,

I'm going to tell data that you wore makeup. And I just thought that was so sad that she was like, according to Sawyer, threatening him of telling me things like that. And then I asked him, did you actually wear makeup? And he said, no. She just said she was going to say that. Does he seem to be a kid that likes to play with different types of toys? Like he likes dolls, he likes tracks and things, or does he gravitate towards totally only boy types of toys and likes and interests? He is as boyish as it gets,

like guns, swords, footballs, baseballs, hockey, wrestling, Spider-Man, Hulk. And even if you give them a girl toy, like, let's say he's playing with his girl cousins, he'll get mad sometimes and he's like scream. Like, I'm not a girl, I'm a boy. And I'm proud of him for standing up for himself. He doesn't need to be saying that to his little cousins

who are just trying to play with him, of course. But I just, I'm just glad that he has. the guts to stand up for himself. When did you decide enough is enough? I need to go to court and fight for full custody. So there's events that happened after I won half custody. So the gender stuff started happening. His mom started to defame me heinously on social media, et cetera. Like what? What was she saying? Like Johnny Depp, Brett Kavanaugh kind of stuff, really heinous stuff. She was calling me a rapist. She has said before that my son was conceived of rape. None of that's true at all. I mean, that's defamation. It is defamation. That's correct.

And I was actually granted a temporary restraining order because of the defamation and harassment of it. And the court did find later that I'm not guilty of that, thankfully. And I just think it's such a betrayal to say that about somebody that you used to love. Of course. And I, of course, provided the court her Facebook post about me where she says, I'm wonderful, or our text messages where she says how much she loves me. So, you know, try to counteract that. But family court's not really like a criminal court.

you're almost more guilty until proven innocent there, unfortunately. So I had to dispel that. So seeing all of that, the judge was actually kind enough to grant me a temporary restraining order because of it was so bad, which I was very thankful for. And his mom actually, to continue your first question, was actually violated that temporary restraining order. So that was another thing I brought to court. Then there was an incident I found out about where my son's mom was arrested for, child endangerment and placed on a 51-50 hold.

What? Yeah, while my son was with her. And what was the story or circumstance behind that? It was a crazy story. So I actually found out like a week after CPS called me. They had to call me. They had to lay eyes on my son, so to speak. So I had to FaceTime them.

Nothing about me. It was solely for the mom. They had gone by her house. The child wasn't there. So they had to see him since he was with me. The CPS lady told me, nothing happened. you have literally nothing to worry about. Your son just fell off a bed and there was a misunderstanding.

So that's what I was told. That turned out to be wildly inaccurate. How so? So I had been fighting to get his full medical records and stuff. I was granted it months prior, but it took a long time to get it through to the doctor's office and get them to actually do it for some reason. I assume that was because of defamation of me

or maybe it's just a hard process. I don't know. But when I finally got his medical records, it's like two months after I talked to the CPS lady. I'm going through them randomly. I see an ER visit, and it's like child, seeing for head trauma, mother placed on 5150 hold, all this crazy stuff.

And I'm like, what? So then I subpoenaed all the police body cam footage, the police report, the CPS report, the 911 call. And what did you discover? Just a horrifying night that would terrify any parent if they saw that their kid was there for that. There was accusations. So basically what happened is her and her.

roommate got into an argument. She was on the phone with her parents. It was a heated conversation. She asked the roommate to watch my son. Is the roommate a man or a woman? It's a woman. Okay. So they're both girls and her brother actually ends up coming later to help her move out. But they get in such a serious argument because the roommate didn't want to watch Sawyer for a second while she was on the phone. It sounded like they got into at least a very aggressive verbal confrontation. There was accusations by the roommate and her brother because her brother ends up coming later that my son's mom had thrown my son onto a bed, used him as a battering ram so that the roommate couldn't leave, so not like hit her with my son, but like obviously if the roommate's trying

to leave the house and she doesn't let her by blocking her with the kid because you don't want to push through the kid. That was one of the accusations. There was accusations that my son's mom threatened to burn the house down. She threatened to kill everyone. There was accusations that she had placed my son up somewhere high. There's a video of the falling off the bed thing. She's on the bed with him, arguing with the roommate who's standing and they're both on the bed. And this is a bed that's not on a bed frame. It's just held up by three chairs. So it's not really a safe place for a 20-month-old, which is how old he was at the time. So like a year and a half. And he ends up falling off of this and landing right on his head. And so that was kind of scary.

she told the cops that, oh, he's a gymnast. He just did a somersault when they came. I don't think 20-month-olds can do a somersault. Yeah, I was going to say, have you ever seen your son do any somersaults? Well, now that he's three, he can, but not before, no way. Right. And so when the court sees things like this, she's been on a 51-50 hold before the baby was born. Since your son has been born, she's been placed on another.

She has a record with police. However, you're in the state of California where they're very sympathetic. to this gender ideology when it comes to children and things like that. So do you feel like if this was a normal situation where, you know, she wasn't trying to project any type of sexual orientation or gender ideology or whatever on your son, do you think that then the courts would be like, okay, this is an unfit parent, but they're just like being more sympathetic because this involves an LGBTQ child? I think it's at least a possibility.

I've talked to some attorneys who's like, you probably would have been custody if you just didn't bring up the gender stuff at all. I'm not sure if that's true or not, but I think that that's a travesty if that is the case. So what was the first thing you did? What is the first step a parent should take in this situation? Like is it a gathering of like text messages and things like that to present to court? Like, you know, step by step, what is the guide for somebody dealing with this? Yeah, you have to gather all the evidence, whether it's police reports, body cam footage. You have to go through it. You have to transcribe video footage. you have to write your whole document explaining to the court everything, which is a long process.

It has to be in a certain format. It has to be very specific. And you just have to get your best argument. You have to file for a request for order or an ex parte, which is what I did, which is an emergency immediate order. The court has two or three days or something to respond. And I was actually denied that. And then I got granted a motion for reconsideration and I was granted it. And I got granted a five-day trial. And so your total legal battle that you're still in the middle of, how long has it been going on currently? I've been fighting it in my son's whole life since two months after he was born, so coming up on four years. And where are you in the legal fight now? Where does the legal fight go from this point on? Well, we had a trial, and the court decided to keep custody the same,

and that they wouldn't rule on gender, and that my son had to continue to see the doctor that the mom preferred, which is a doctor that's okay with gender ideology. And is this like what kind of doctor, like a psychologist or a physical? Just a normal pediatrician. Okay, a pediatrician. And so now I'm basically appealing the court's decision from the trial. I don't believe they made the right decision. Because you're wanting full custody? Correct. I don't believe they made the right decision based on case law and based on the evidence. And so I'm going to appeal it and do whatever it takes to protect my son. How long will it take, you think, before you find out an answer on this appeal? Apparently appeals can take pretty long. I've never done one before, but I can tell you the process

is starting very soon. If you don't get full custody, will you still keep half custody or do you lose everything? I should still be keeping half custody, thankfully. What are states like California doing to take children away from parents who don't go along with gender ideology? California is putting in some new anti-parent bills recently, and some of them are directly affecting family court and gender ideology AB 957 tells a judge under the health, safety, and welfare of a kid that it's in their best interest to grant custody to a parent who affirms a kid's fake gender identity, which I think is a really scary bill. I spoke to the author of the bill, and she thinks that, as you were saying earlier, I'm the affirming parent in this situation, and this bill would give me custody,

and I think that if that's the case, I'm happy to take that avenue, but I think that it's a terrible bill. It's going to cause thousands of families to be ripped apart at the sacrifice of children because parents in family court lie and do whatever they can to win and get back at their exes. I think to put under health, safety, and welfare for affirming a delusion is a really scary thing for the government to be doing. So there are sanctuary states, you know, like California, that consider themselves to be safe havens for kids wanting to transition without a parent's consent. What do you think of this idea? Sanctuary states for parents wanting to protect their kids

from being transitioned by another parent. I think that's exactly what we need to do. If they're going to make rules like this, we have to play their game and do it back to them. And I believe Florida does have that in some capacity. So I'd encourage anyone dealing with this to look into that. But yeah, that's exactly what we need is red states or brave states to stand up and do the same thing.

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Clark with Code Clark for $25 off. That's Good Ranchers.com slash Clark with Code Clark for $25 off and free two pounds of ground beef in addition to your meat subscription for the next two whole years. Click the link in the show notes, Good Ranchers. American Meat delivered. How rare is a story like yours? It's not as rare as you would think, unfortunately. There's a lot of people dealing with this. Tell us about some of these other families that you've met who are going through similar things.

I've met other dads who haven't seen their kids in years and their kids are being forced transitioned. And when you say forced transition, because you know, there's a lot of people on the left that think this is a made-up thing that nobody would ever give a minor child hormones. They would never give a minor child testosterone. They would never let them go through gender reassignment surgeries, mutilation of genitals or body parts. What are some of the extreme cases that you've heard of that contradict that? Sometimes the dads don't even have a right to know exactly what's happening. happening because they take that right away from them. So they'll be unsure. But sometimes they'll be

giving kids hormone blockers, surgery. They have everybody calling them their opposite, their new name. If you don't call them the new name, they won't let you have visitation with them. And it's just, it's a terrible ideology that's being forced on kids that we need to stand up against now and just draw a line and say there's no more. It's done. It stops here. It's gone on too long. people did it out of compassion, not wanting to upset anybody, but look where it's gotten. Kids are being seriously harmed, and we have to stop it. Now, I'm not asking this to condemn you in any way, but I am just curious. Knowing what you know now, do you wish that you would have put more weight on something

like having the same political views as someone before hooking up? Or do you feel like at this point that that wouldn't have made a difference? I think that it's ideal to find a partner that you share values with. And I would encourage anybody to do that. But I have made no mistake. My son is the most amazing, precious thing in my life. I love being a dad more than anything in the world. It's literally the best thing ever.

It's better than music, sports, everything cool in your life. It transcends that. You can't understand until you have a kid. And, you know, I think it's given me a voice to stand up. for kids that can't stand up for themselves. I think I have a purpose to fight for kids and for parents. And I think that it's all going to be okay and that my son's going to be okay. How has this situation affected your dating life or even just your trust in women in general? It certainly makes it harder to trust women sometimes. That's my own demons that I need to face,

right? And I think that now I'm going to be sure that I find someone who aligns with me and that that's good. Do you feel like it's made you a lot more trepidimend? on like who you choose to go out with and stuff like that? Yeah, I think that's a fair statement. So what kind of questions are you asking girls now in like in the pre-interview before going out? Like are you asking things like, you know, what are your political views before you even go on a date or?

Yeah, I try to do that now. Really? That's correct. Yeah. Wow. So how soon into dating do you bring up your situation with your son? Do you even bring that up on a first date? It just, it would depend how the conversation goes, you know?

Yeah. Sometimes people are already aware of my situation because it's starting to get, you know, air time and people are seeing it. So sometimes people already know. But, yeah, I think it's important to bring it up right away because why waste each other's time if it's, you're not going to work out? How worried are you that your ex isn't going to stop at non-binary and that she's eventually going to announce that your son is trans and attempt to medically transition him? I don't believe it'll work in my case. I think my son would never go along with that. I won't let that happen.

Would she do that? Perhaps she would try to do that. I don't think it'll work in our case because there's so much evidence that she's been pushing this narrative since before he was born even. I don't think the court will go along with it. Why is being against transitioning minors not just a conservative issue? It's not a right or left issue at all. I'm at the capital often in California with lots of people standing right next to me

saying I'm a lifelong Democrat. this is insane. We can't do this to kids. It's irreversible damage. They cannot consent, which kids can't consent to these sorts of treatments. How do you cope with all of this? Like, honestly. How do you deal with it? I deal with it by making sure I exercise daily. I listen to music. That really helps me. I spend every second of my custody time with Sawyer just being with him. And that's always just a reminder that everything's worth it. I mean, I obviously so badly, and I know my audience so badly wants to be able to say, like, God is going to give you full custody of your son, but we don't know that.

Like maybe that doesn't happen. Maybe God does allow your ex to get full custody for reasons that we can't comprehend. And, you know, that would all be because he sees some kind of bigger picture that you and I just can't understand. And there's a purpose for that. But if that happens, if your ex gets full custody, of your son or she continues to have 50-50 custody with you, what will you do? Well, I'll keep fighting it. It doesn't matter the odds. It doesn't matter what you do to me.

It doesn't matter what you take from me. It doesn't matter what you say about me. I don't care about any of that. I'm going to fight for Sawyer no matter what. I love them more than anything in the world. Children are the most innocent, precious things amongst us, and I'll do absolutely anything to keep them safe and to fight evil. I think every child would be so unbelievably lucky and blessed to have you as their dad and advocating for them. And I'm going to be praying for Sawyer. I know my audience is going to be praying for Sawyer. I'd also like to direct them to where they can donate to help with your legal fees.

I can't imagine the legal fees that you're dealing with. So where can people donate and where can they follow Sawyer's story on social media for updates? You can donate at GiveSengo slash Savings Sawyer. On social media, you can follow me on all social media at Harrison Tinsley. Should pop right up. And I love getting messages and requests from people and prayers. It means so much to me. And I won't let any of you down and I won't let Sawyer down.

Perfect. Thank you so much. I will put all the links in the show notes so that you'll be able to find where to donate there. Thank you, Harrison, for coming on the spillover. Thank you, Alex. I hope you'll consider donating whatever you can to Harrison and Sawyer. I am so excited for next week because I'm bringing back one of my top five most popular and most controversial guests. She also is just the perfect follow-up to someone

like Harrison because she's a children's rights activist. Now, you might remember who she is. And she has some new things to share with us. So you will want to make sure that you are back for that. The week after her, I have one of the most bizarre interviews or episodes that I've ever done lined up for you. It's a conversation that you've probably never thought twice about in regards to medical choices that you make for children and what is truly ethical, unless you are very, very, very ahead of the debate. So actually, between this week and the next two weeks, you've got three episodes that really go together very well. Please do me a favor and leave a five-star review to support this podcast.

It is free, but your reviews help the podcast show up in more searches and charts so that other people can discover it. We're having really important conversations, at least I would like to think so. and so we want as many people to discover this show as possible. The Spillover is back next Thursday at 9 p.m. Pacific, midnight Eastern, anywhere you get your podcast or real Alex Clark on YouTube. I'm Alex Clark, and this is The Spillover. Love you, mean it. Bye.