Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark - "On 9/11, I Was A New Doctor Running A Morgue Out Of A Brooks Brothers." - with Dr. Sandeep Jauhar

Episode Date: September 9, 2022

On September 11, 2001, people began the morning as if it were any other work day. This episode’s special guest was no exception. He was a medical professional, trained to meet patients in crisis. However, he never expected that the patients he’d tend to would already be deceased and that the building he’d find himself working within would be the opposite of a hospital. After the Towers fell, he found himself bagging and sorting the body parts of strangers in the middle of a retail store. It w...

This episode contains graphic descriptions of death and dismemberment during 9-11. Listener discretion is advised. On the morning of September 11, 2001, our guest went to an obstetrician appointment with his wife to plan for the future. And in an instant, the future stood still, for him and the entire world. When he saw the news of the first plane crashing into one of the Twin Towers, at first he chalked it up to a terrible accident. But by the time another plane flew into the same.

second tower, he realized something was very wrong. Our guest was a brand new doctor with no experience at the time, who had just started a cardiology fellowship at Bellevue Hospital, a trauma center on First Avenue. Despite his lack of experience and due to the emergency nature of the situation, it was all hands on deck. That's when he was asked to help by running a makeshift morgue where rescue workers would bring him random body parts. The morgue he was working out, of was constructed out of a dust-covered, abandoned Brooks Brothers store across the street from ground zero. For those born after 9-11, the images and stories that you usually hear from that day typically revolve around patriotism. But for those who lived through it, the stories that showcase the

pure horror that thousands of New Yorkers went through are just as important to understanding why we will always say, never forget. Today you will hear a story from someone who was there the day our country changed forever and how sometimes the choice to be courageous is decided for you. I'm awestruck and honored to host practicing cardiologist in New York Times bestselling author of Heart, a History, and the forthcoming My Father's Brain, Dr. Sandeep Jahar, on The Spillover. Now, in 2001, where were you in your career as a doctor? Were you pretty seasoned or were you brand new? So I had just graduated from my residency at Cornell, which is on the Upper East Side of Manhattan, and I had just started a cardiology fellowship at NYU on July 1st, 2001. So I was in my early, like, first couple of, you know, few months of cardiology training. So I was still very much of a newbie at that point.

And so you're at the doctor's office that morning with your wife because you guys were trying to get pregnant. And so in most regards, did it just feel like a normal day? Yeah, absolutely. We actually lived close to, we lived in Cornell housing. And our, you know, OB-GYN was part of Cornell. So that morning I actually went into my training job late because we had this doctor's meeting. So we were in the waiting room. And my wife said, oh, look, something's going on.

And I looked up in, you know, the news. news was on about how a plane had hit one of the Twin Towers. And, you know, it was people were sort of, you know, perplexed by it. I was perplexed. You know, what was going on. No one at that point, I think, at least I wasn't even aware that something like this where an airliner full of passengers could be steered into a massive skyscraper. No one, no one, knew that was even possible. So we finished up the meeting and then I got into a cab to go downtown to NYU. And as I'm driving, you know, as I'm in the back of the cab, the cab driver said, did you hear what happened down at the World Trade Center? I said, yeah, I heard that there was a plane crash.

she said there was a second plane. And at that point, I mean, I was so, you know, naive or kind of stupid that even at that point, I didn't realize that this was a concerted attack. I thought, well, you know, maybe because of the smoke, another airplane somehow lost its way or lost, you know, the pilot lost, you know, is in a proper vision. and crashed in. So I went, I got to the hospital and all of a sudden people were like mobilizing because the expectation was that all these people who were in the buildings were going to be transported to Bellevue, which was the hospital where I was training, and Bellevue was a sort of level one

trauma center. So we were, you know, moving supplies. And at one point, this buddy of mine, who was also a first-year cardiology fellow, he said, you've got to come up to the CCU, which was on the 16th floor. And I went up there. He said, you won't believe this. One of the buildings collapsed. And did you look out the window and see what he was looking at? Yeah. Yeah.

I looked out the window and literally there was only one building. And so what are you thinking in your mind? So, I, you know, again, it just, I couldn't even conceive of a massive skyscraper just tumbling to the ground because of a, because of an airplane crash. But at that point, it was very clear that this was a terrorist attack. The news was on. And so we had to mobilize. And so I went down to the emergency room. And I remember there were trauma surgeons lined up next to stretchers, like 15 or 20 of them,

just waiting for the ambulances to arrive because the thought was that, you know, there must have been, you know, 1,000 people, 1,500 people in the tower that had collapsed. Where were they? And then it became very clear that people just weren't arriving. and that something was going on down at the World Trade Center. No one really had any news about it. And so at some point, probably about an hour or two later, an ambulance driver asked for volunteers to go down to Ground Zero.

So at that point, I volunteered to go. We took an ambulance down to the financial district, you know, Wall Street. And so as you're sitting in this ambulance, do you see, can you see outside? What does it look like on the streets? You can't really see? I mean, it looked like nighttime. And it was probably maybe 1.30 or 2 in the afternoon.

So it was, I mean, it was so overcast. And the air was so thick with smoke that. it was just impossible really to see anything. It really felt like it was nighttime. And we got out of the ambulance and I remember there was there were firefighters sitting in a Starbucks. And there was there were all these sort of bombed out cars lining the streets with like dust, cement dust that was maybe like an inch thick. And, oh, and the one thing I do remember, this is the most striking thing to me, was that there were all these shoes on the sidewalks with no people in them, just empty shoes. Do you think they just kicked them off so they could run? I don't know.

I still don't know what happened. Why? But I would say there were tens of pairs of shoes on the sidewalk as I'm walking over to. you know, we had set up a triage center in one of the buildings that were close to the main towers. And just walking over there, I just saw this and I remember thinking, I mean, so kind of stupid, but I remember thinking, this must be what Beirut is like, you know, when during the Civil War. I mean, just it was, it was not Manhattan. anymore. You know, it was, it was a different country. It was a different atmosphere. It was unlike

anything I'd ever experienced. And so you're in the triage center and you're expecting it to be full of people getting medical attention, correct? Yeah. So there were, there were several departments. There was one for like asthma and respiratory problems and they were sort of pulmonary, you know, lung specialist there and there was a chest pain sort of unit and I was going to staff that and I remember this colleague of mine who was also a first year cardiology fellow John was down there and I went in and you know at this point it was still just like I was down there for a purpose to treat patients. And the expectation was that there were going to be, you know, a lot of patients that we were going to be taken care of. And I asked John, I just, I just blurted it out,

where are the patients? And he just looked at me, said, they're all dead. How did you rationalize what he was telling you? I mean, you know, the enormity of it was hard to fathom at that point. you know, by then the second world, you know, tower had come down. And no one really knew how many people got out, you know. You know, I was sort of busy in the middle of, you know, getting down there and and setting up the unit. And so I wasn't watching the news.

You know, it was in the days when you didn't have. You know, everything available on a smartphone. I mean, I had a flip-top cell phone, you know, that didn't really give me any information. Was it chaos still at that point in the afternoon on actual September 11th, just still in the streets, people screaming and running and stuff? Or at that point, had it become silent? No, no. At that point, it was absolute quiet. The people were running around, you know, 10, 1030 when the tower, you know, was coming down. and some people probably remember Giuliani, you know, sort of leading the way with, you know, the whole cohort of fire department officials.

That was in the morning. But by the time I got there, it was absolute desolation. I mean, no one was on the street. It was, I mean, I don't want to say pitch black, but it was dark. It was like nighttime. And we were down there for, um, we were down there for, um, you know, at this triage center. And then the building, um, was structurally unsound and someone, I don't know who decided that we had to move. So we actually packed up all our equipment.

I had gone down to the pharmacy to get equipment. It was in the basement. So we had all this equipment and we, we sort of rushed it out of the building because we didn't know when the building was going to come down. It actually came down about maybe three hours later. It was World Trade Center 7. I think that was the building that we were in. Anyway, we walked over to Pace University, which was a couple blocks away, and then set up another unit there. And then probably, I don't know, maybe two, three hours later, the building came down that we were in. So now that you think about it, knowing that you were in one of the buildings that actually came down, I mean, you could have been crushed alive as well. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, you, you, we weren't even thinking

about those things because, you know, we were there for a purpose. And it was to take care of patience. And, and then it became very clear that no one was going to be coming in. We did have some firefighters come in. You know, at the triage center, we were having asthma, you know, from smoke inhalation and from all the dust. Honestly, we didn't even have masks, proper masks. We didn't have N-95s. We were, I don't even recall, honestly, whether I was wearing a mask for the first few hours.

Probably weren't. Yeah, it was just like, you know, and it was dense and, you know, it was dense and, you Actually, I'm pretty sure I was wearing a mask, but it certainly wasn't like an N95. We were grabbing whatever we could. Anyway, we got over to Pace, and I remember we were sitting around waiting for people to come in. And one of the doctors who worked with the fire department was actually there when one of the towers came down. And I remember he was talking to us. And he said, yeah, I ran under a bridge and I heard all these thuds and a fire department.

officials said those were people jumping off the buildings. You know, so it was just, you know, extremely disturbing. I ended up leaving that night. Do you remember that was it a drive home? You were alone. Did you have to ride a train, the subway, a taxi? No, the subways weren't running. I had actually a police escort.

Yeah, one of the police officers who's there said, you know, said, I said, I have to go uptown. And I lived on the Upper East Side. And so he gave me a ride uptown. Did you sleep well that first night or could you not get any sleep at all? Well, you know, I'll tell you, one of the things, and I say this, just because, you know, we were going through a thing with, you know, I, IVF and, you know, I remember my wife said, on your way uptown, can you stop by Apthorpe pharmacy and pick up the medicine that we need? You know what I mean? It was, and And that was weird to you because of what you had just saw, you know, seen and experienced early

the day. Now your wife is like snapping you back into reality. Yeah, like, like our lives, you know, I mean, like, if you could make a quick detour and pick up the medicine, because I can't get over there, and we need it to get started on the cycle or whatever it was. So, I mean, you know, needless to say, we didn't, I couldn't do that. I'm sure the pharmacy was closed, even if I had an opportunity to do that. But then the next day I went back. But your wife did not want you to go. No, no, no. No, she, she was, she was very upset about it. And, you know, she said, yeah, what you're, you know, our family is not going to be happy that you're down there, you know, because she was just looking out for me and, you know, she was aware of all the, I mean, there was probably, you know, asbestos and it was smoke and there was, you know, it was, and we had no, proper equipment. In any case, I hitched a ride back down the next day, and that's when I saw

some of the most disturbing things that I've ever seen in my life. Like what? Well, I mean, so, so I went down to work at one of the triage centers, and, you know, we set up, uh, ivy bags on on on a ladder in a fire station and you know it was all like mcgyvering things you know we didn't really have all the proper equipment and the poles and so on anyway at one point a police officer said we need um doctors at the morgue at the brooks brothers building. You say morgue and Brooks Brothers and people are like, what do you mean a morgue at a Brooks Brothers?

Yeah. It was an improvised morgue. It was a Brooks Brothers. It's still there. I visited it. I avoided it for about 20 years, but I visited it a couple, a few years ago. It was a Brooks Brothers there. And someone decided that the remains of bodies,

that they were taking out of the rubble were going to be identified in this makeshift morgue in a clothing store. And was this, was the inside of the Brooks Brothers super sanitary and hadn't been touched by the towers collapsing? No, no, no. It was, I mean, it was all like, I mean, you could tell it was a clothing store

because you could see the shirts that were piled up, you know, like in a Brooks Brothers. But everything was like covered with dust. And I walked into the lobby and there were, you know, National Guard soldiers with their German shepherds. And it was broken glass everywhere. And I walked up to this police officers sort of escorting me up to this curtain. And he opened the curtain and told me to go in. And I went in and it was a clothing store. There were a few medical students there.

Medical students or nursing students, maybe three. And then there were two doctors. One was clearly younger than me and one was a man in his. 50s. But when I looked at his ID badge, he was actually earlier in his string than I was. So all of a sudden, like, I walk in and I'm the most experienced doctor in the room. And they were discussing, like, what to do with the body parts. You know, I mean, they weren't pathologists. they weren't, you know, autopsy specialists. They were just a couple of doctors,

and they were just talking about, well, what happens if body parts come in? How are we going to store them? How are we going to identify which body they belong to? If they're like four body parts, do we put them in four separate body bags? And there were just piles of body bags in the dressing rooms. And I mean, this is a graphic question, but I guess just trying to imagine it. I mean, are we talking about like extremities or even like internal organs that were just like randomly found? Yeah, exactly. Both.

Yeah. So, so I was there for about maybe 10, 15 minutes. And these doctors, these two doctors had been there for maybe a couple hours. and the younger female physician said that she had to leave. And the older doctor said that he had to take a break. And the woman asked me, because I was just kind of standing there, are you a doctor? And I said, yes. She said, great, you take over. Oh, no.

And they both left. And so at that point, I and I think one other medical professional, maybe she was a nurse, and then there were a couple of younger students, I think they were students, were there. And we just sort of waited. And then about maybe 10 or 15 minutes later, they brought in a part of a human body and on a stretcher. And I remember it was extremely horrible, but it was a man's left leg that was attached to

his pelvis. The right leg was gone. And out of the pelvis were, were most, you know, part of his gut were just like sort of, you know, coming out of the pelvis. And then in a separate bag,

they brought in what looked like, like a spleen and maybe part of a liver. And, and then everyone was looking to me to like what do we do now and i you know we um you know we just filled out some tags you know this is a gentleman's you know left leg um you knew it was a man because you because the penis was still attached to the pelvis and um so we filled out the tags and um one of the

police officers, I remember saying that they found a cell phone in his pocket. They had taken off the pants pocket. We put that in a separate back. And so they were going to do whatever they were going to do with the cell phone, you know, call somebody. Was it assumed that these were all people that had been in the building or jumpers or potentially could have been either? Yeah. I mean, it was probably people who were crushed in the collapse of the building. You know, a lot of people were never identified, you know. And there's still a lot of missing people. Yes.

Yeah. So there were more than 3,000 who died that day. So, you know, at that point, like, you know, just from a personal standpoint, you know, I'm a physician. I do procedures. I take care of patients. I'm not really revolted by the, by blood or, you know, but this was a completely different scenario. This was, this was, there was so much violence and it was just so uncontrolled. And, and, and after a little while, I had to get away too. So I just remember walking out and, you know, and someone else, you know, was going to have to take over. Walking out, you mean for a break or walking out for good?

I don't, I didn't, I didn't go back. So I was there for maybe an hour, hour and a half. And we sorted through, you know, some collection of body parts. But, you know, I had never really, I remember even in medical school, like cadavers made me feel queasy, you know. So this was not something I was really equipped for, you know. And I don't think anyone was.

I think we had to find reserves of something in us to do that work. And, you know, for the longest time, I never went below, you know, Halston. You know what I mean? I just I just never went down to the World Trade Center. In fact, even after the memorial was made, you know, people were talking about it and whatnot, but I just assiduously avoided it. I just never wanted to go down. And then eventually I did with my children. What was that like? You know, I felt, you know, not to be sort of dramatic about it, but I felt, you know, not to be sort of dramatic about it, but I felt. Well, you know, the memorial itself is very, very striking. It's very disturbing in its own right.

You know, I don't know if you've been down there, but, you know. Yes, I have. It's incredible. It's incredible. And it's like it basically shows this sort of falling for when I remember. I didn't spend a lot of time there, you know, sort of water falling into this bottomless pit. And so that in and of it is. itself was extremely disturbing, but then, you know, all the memories of that day, which I had kind of

set aside, my children didn't even know what I had been through. Yeah, I was going to say, how old were your children when you brought them to Ground Zero? Or to the memorial? Maybe 10 and six. And how old are they now? 18 and 14. So did you ever like have a sit-down moment with your kids to be like, I want to tell you the story? Maybe 12 and 8. No, I think they were older. They were like, no, I must have been 2000. Yeah, probably 12 and 8. So I didn't go down there for a number of years. So probably in the mid, like 2015 or so is when I went down there.

Did they know, like what their dad had experienced doing this makeshift Morgan of Brooks brothers? You know, I remember my daughter had, they did it like a 9-11, you know, thing for the classroom where, they talked about it and and then she she was supposed to interview, you know, people who had, you know, were alive during 9-11 and had experienced something with it. So she decided to interview me, but she didn't know the extent of it. I didn't even tell her the extent. But I did tell her that I went down to ground zero and she was shocked. And she was probably, I don't know, six years old or eight years old at the time.

But then, you know, I had written, I wrote an essay about my experience for the New York Times Magazine. And then I think the teacher came to know that I'd written this essay. But, yeah, no, they didn't know. And, you know, a lot of young people don't know what happened down there. They know about it, you know, through these documentaries or whatever. But it's easy to forget the sort of the scale of the trauma. I mean, there are very few things that happen in our lives where we think that nothing will ever be the same again. You know?

And see, in my lifetime, I think of that. I was in third grade when 9-11 happened. So I attribute something like that with 9-11. And then I also attribute something like that with COVID. Yeah. Yeah. I think in my lifetime, there was. So I'm dating myself, but probably, I don't know if you remember the,

the space shuttle challenger. Yes. Exploded in midair. Yep. I was a freshman in college. That felt like one of the biggest moments, right? Because it was on national television. And there were regular civilians on board, like teachers and stuff.

Yeah, right. And that was a big thing. And that was, I think, 1986. And then I'd say the second thing was 9-11. And then COVID. Yeah. Those in my lifetime are probably the three most sort of seminal events. Yeah.

Did you ever talk to the doctors and medical staff that you'd worked with in the Brooks Brothers ever again after that day? You know, someone reached out to me maybe two years ago because I'd written this book, you know, called Heart the History, where I talked a little bit about one of the themes of the book is the psychological effects on the human heart and how the heart can actually change shape when it's under stress. And I gave a TED talk about it and so on. So he had either seen my TED talk or I think came across my book. And then he said, you won't believe it, but I was at the Brooks brothers. And I think he was one of the medical students or what I thought were medical

students. And he had, you know, gone through all these years. And I think he had like bona fide PTSD. Yeah. Well, I wondered if you, if all of you guys did. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I probably, you know, it's not something that I really talked about much. So maybe that is PTSD, right? The big important event. You just want to avoid it. Just don't want to open up about it. So yeah, probably to some degree, I did have it. But I think he definitely had experienced some of it. And yeah, I mean, we just, we communicated and it was really strange to, you know, even be transported back to that moment in my life, you know, where someone was actually there. I'm sure, though, provided some closure for you as well as him,

to have that conversation with, there's only, you know, so many handful of people that could ever relate to that experience because you guys were there in that Brooks Brothers. Definitely, definitely. Did you ever attempt to describe for your wife what you had seen,

or did you keep it to yourself like you said? I just didn't know if you kind of told her. I didn't tell her. I mean, that first night, I just went home after I'd seen what was going on the triage center and I was just kind of numb. We watched television. We saw, you know, it was actually the first time I saw the, the airplanes hitting the towers. Because I, you know, I had just been doing stuff all day. I was shocked. And then the next day was the Brooks Brothers

morgue and the fire station. I spent the whole day there. And then I never went back. I basically never, yeah, I never went back after Brooks Brothers experience. And no, I didn't talk about it with her. I really didn't talk about with anyone. I eventually wrote about it because it was a way for me to process what I had been through. So I wrote about it for the Times Magazine. And then eventually I wrote in more detail about it in my book, at heart of history. Yeah, so you've written multiple books, bestsellers, intern, doctor, heart, a history.

And then you also have an upcoming book called My Father's Brain. And that book is actually about your father. Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, my, you know, my father was a very accomplished scientist. And around, you know, 2013, 14, he started experiencing memory problems. We didn't know what was really going on. We eventually took him to a neurologist, and he was diagnosed with Alzheimer's. And for the next six years, you know, I and my siblings took care of him, and as best we could.

We didn't want him to go to a nursing home. We kept him in his own home, and we sort of traded responsibility, you know, traded responsibilities. were taking care of him and, you know, hiring help. And we were fortunate because, you know, we had some resources that a lot of people don't. A lot of families don't have that. And so my father's brain is sort of a memoir of my relationship with him as he succumbed to dementia. So it's a personal story, but it's also a book of science and history. It's about this history and science of brain degeneration.

What do we know about it? And our attitudes toward people who have degenerating brains. What do you think our attitude as a collective society is towards people with Alzheimer's? And is it right or wrong? Yeah, I mean, I think we live in what I call would call a hypercognitive culture where, you know, there's conversation going on. all the time, right? And if you can't contribute to the conversation, you get marginalized. And people with dementia, they can't participate. And so we tend to marginalize them and almost make them subhuman. And I'm not saying this from the perspective of superiority, moral superiority. I did the

same thing. You know, my dad was an incredibly accomplished scientist and man. But when he started to degenerate, I would talk about him like he wasn't even there. You know, it was shameful, but it was what a lot of people do when family members develop dementia because it's such a frustrating process. You know, where you feel like the person has changed that they've lost their personhood. and because so much of what, and I write about this in the book, so much of ourselves are wrapped up in our memories, in our ability to have continuity with our past self. But if you break that continuity,

because you don't remember who you were, then are you a different person? Are you the same person? And so the book is really, you know, it's about memory, what it means, how it gives meaning to our lives, even as it changes. and it's about our culture and how we view people who have, you know, brain disease.

And it's about the most cutting edge sort of research into dementia and Alzheimer's. And then it's, I would call it a very touching personal story. So, you know, it was a difficult book to write, but I think it was one that I really wanted to write. Yeah, I was wondering if it just kind of all poured out of you or if it was, if it was really difficult kind of stop and go writing that? It really poured out of me. It was something that I, you know, because I don't know, you know, if you've experienced this, a lot of people have, you know, dementia, Alzheimer's is such a huge public health problem.

We don't talk about it like we do talk about cancer or heart disease even, you know. but it's it's a condition that people fear more than death, you know, in surveys. So it's something that it's growing. It's, and it takes a lot of resources. You know, people with heart disease don't require the same sort of vigilant attention and care. And the fact is that in our society, we don't prioritize caring for our elders. It's just easier to focus on the newer generation. And I think that a lot of the care and responsibility falls on family members.

And, you know, I'm a doctor. I wasn't prepared for it. And I understood what was going on. I can only imagine people who don't understand what's going on. all the sort of navigation that's, that's required, you know, and the doctor visits and this, you know, and, and, and, and then eventually when the person can no longer sort of take care of themselves, how much that takes out of caregivers. So the book is also about that. And, and, yeah. When is the book available for purchase?

So it's available now. You can pre-order it on Amazon or Barnes, and nobles or Powell's or any sort of independent bookstore. And it's coming out in April. Of 2023? Yeah. Perfect. So the book is called My Father's Brain.

Doctor, one last question. Do you have any regrets of going to volunteer at that Brooks Brothers on 9-11? I did. I did. probably for months I felt a certain degree of resentment that I had gone down there I had been exposed to

that you know it was kind of selfish actually but it was so impactful it affected my work it affected my relationships for some time where I just kind of withdrew but now, you know, with the benefit of hindsight and time and distance, I feel that, you know, it was a real privilege, to be honest.

It was a real privilege to go down there and, you know, serve, you know, as best I could. And I remember we rescued a young woman from the rubble. I was there. I didn't move, you know, the rocks and so on. But we rescued her, and she eventually went to Bellevue. And I wrote about this a little bit in heart. She had this post-traumatic stress disorder. Obviously, she'd been pinned down in the rubble for, I don't know, maybe two days

or a day and she was having all these arrhythmias and palpitations and heart problems afterwards. But we saved her, right? I mean, the people who went down there, and I don't include myself in that, were the firefighters and police officers and the volunteers who went into the rubble. They were real heroes. And so I feel privileged to belong to that group in any, you know, sort of, you know, way, peripheral way. So, yeah. Well, I think what is so admirable about you, doctor, is that you were courageous and you were kind of forced to just like improvise some courage there in that moment. And you weren't seeking it out.

It just happened. And sometimes we're going to come to points in our. lives where we just, it's fight or flight. And your story is so incredible because I think a lot of us hear that and we're like, what would I do in that situation? You know, would I run or would I help? And so I think it really provides just a moment to sit and pause on a week like this week when we're thinking about such a tragedy in American history. And so I just want to thank you, Dr. Jihar, for coming on the spillover. Thank you so much for having me.

I told you that Dr. Sandeep's story would stick with you for the rest of your life. Now it's your job to send this episode to everyone you know to help make sure that we never forget what terrorists put the American people through on September 11th. I know that this was a very heavy episode. Sad, you may have gotten emotional, which is why next week I am bringing on one of the funniest and craziest viral comedians on the internet right now. The bonus is he's openly conservative, and I ask him things about his personal life. He's never discussed publicly.

It is a hilarious laugh out loud interview that will have you on the edge of your seat. Next week is also our one-year anniversary, and in honor of that, I will be announcing a big surprise. If you think that this is one of the best interview podcasts out right now, prove it by leaving a five-star review. Catch a brand new episode of The Spillover next Thursday night at 9 p.m. Pacific, midnight Eastern. I'm Alex Clark, and this is the statement. Bill over. Love you, mean it. Bye.