Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark - "Permission To Grieve: The Forgotten Fathers Impacted By Abortion." - with Victoria Robinson

Episode Date: November 18, 2022

After enduring multiple tumultuous relationships in her early 20s, Victoria Robinson had one close call with abortion before she ultimately went through with another. This experience inevitably had profound effects on her mental health and left her with significant trauma that intensified the longer she kept it a secret. The truth, however, began to surface in her life as she attempted to heal. That’s when, after over a decade, she finally had contact with the father of her aborted child. The...

Talk. Tick. Talk. You know what that is? Tick. The time is ticking people. Tick. Talk. The countdown is on. In exactly one month, December 17 through 20th, America Fest is happening. Here in Phoenix, Arizona, it's a massive conservative conference tick. Talk featuring everyone from Tucker Carlson to Chase Rice. It's going to be memorable. There's going to be every name in the conservative movement that you love and you better be there. tick talk. Go to AMfest.com right now and use code Poplix for 25% off your tickets. It is the Coachella of conservatism with concerts every single night. So don't wait until the last minute. Tick talk. Get your tickets while there are still some left and I'll see you at America Fest. Two weeks ago, I hosted Dr. Warren Farrell, author of The Boy Crisis here on this billover, and it was a very enlightening conversation all about how boys in America are being entirely overlooked by society. And I carefully select all of my guests. For one, I want to platform stories that I hear and become passionate about,

whether it's something with pop culture, big pharma, children's rights. But two, I want the stories here to teach me and those who listen, something new about the world, or at the very least, to remind us all about what's true. Now, here's a hard truth. No one in popular culture, the media, politics, or even the church really wants to talk about. And that is the fathers of aborted children.

They are men in crisis, except they have millions and millions of people and movements telling them, sit down, shut up when it comes to the issue of abortion. Does no uterus, no opinion ring a bell? Of course, if you identify as having a uterus, and I guess your opinion still counts, but that's a whole another can of worms, what's undeniable is that men have virtually no seat at the table when their child's life is being questioned. Not all men whose babies have been aborted were teenage fathers encouraging an easy solution to a scared girlfriend. Sometimes they are. But also, some men who live with the repercussions of abortion were just not made aware of their deceased child until years later. Others merely just drove a friend to a clinic, no questions asked, or they found themselves being emotionally tormented with regret when they eventually had their own child. These men are our fathers, brothers, boyfriends, feet.

for them an abortion experience is deeply personal and irrefutable, unleashing havoc in their lives. And these men deserve a seat at the table and a voice in the argument for life. Today, my guest is here to talk all about the hard truth surrounding the fathers of aborted kids and explaining why men do deserve to voice an opinion on abortion after making the impossible decision to have her own abortion. She was left wounded by the unrelenting feeling of shame and grief. And then years later, she was stunned by the realization that the man who had encouraged her to abort their child was living in his own hell too.

The road to redemption is lifelong. And she is dedicated years of her own life to encouraging men who are impacted by abortion, hosting retreats for them to work through their trauma and writing a book that tells their stories called They Lied to Us Too. The Forgotten Fathers, Men, and Abortion. It's a powerful book that follows her first book, They Lied to Us, which chronicle stories of women who have had abortion. In addition to being an author, today's guest speaks all around the country

and is the founder of the nonprofit Reassemble, which provides after-abortion trauma recovery. This is a powerful, emotional, encouraging episode. Please welcome Victoria Robinson to The Spillover. Victoria, let's start with just a little bit about you. Talk to us about where you were, where you were living in your early 20s, you're getting married, you're beginning to have kids. What was life like for you? It was happy.

I mean, I was 16 when I got married. What? The first time. What do you? I didn't know this. I wasn't pregnant. Alex, I was just stupid. Oh, my gosh.

And stupid. My parents got divorced when I was 10. So our family fell apart. I can remember exactly where I was when my dad told us they were getting divorced. And it was devastating for a 10-year-old. And so from 10 to 14, when I met my husband, all I dreamed about was being married one day and, you know, just having that family that I'd lost. So I met my husband in high school. I was a freshman.

He was a senior. And he thought I was cute. He was the captain of the football team. So I couldn't believe he thought I was cute. But he did. And then we got married at 16 because my mom was moving again. She moved around a lot. So we threatened to run away together if she didn't sign the papers.

and I'll never forget her looking at me saying, okay, I'm going to do this because there was a lot of things that happened up to that point. But you better never blame me for when this doesn't work out. And what was, I'm just curious, that 16 years old getting married, what was your all's plan for, like, income and all that? Well, he had a job in filling up those candy machines. That was his job.

I was working just different odd jobs. I had a job at the hospital in the emergency room. a registrant, you know, that when people came in, I took all their information down, and I loved it. So really, you're not thinking about that at 16. He was 19, I was 16. I was just thinking about a family. I just want a family. I just want a family. I've come from this broken home, and I just want to start my family. And I'm going to do it different and better. And that's not ever going to happen to me. I won't ever be divorced, especially if I have children. So then I had my first daughter when I was 18, who today is 40.

That is nuts. There's so many you have a 40-year-old. I do. I know. She is 40, and I still love when people say that. And so I was 18 and loved it. I cried. I held her.

I cried in the hospital. I could not believe this little baby was my baby. And we took her home. And then three years later, I was pregnant again. And it wasn't planned, but I was excited. I was married. We had a little girl. We had this really neat life.

We'd bought a house, and he had a better job. I was staying home with her at the time working part-time at the emergency room. And when I told him I was pregnant, he was not happy about it. What did he say? He said, well, you're getting an abortion or I'm going to divorce you. And I was shocked. I'm like, wait, what? Abortion.

That word wasn't one that was ever in my vocabulary. I knew people who had abortion. Some had had them as birth control. And I would say, gosh, that's terrible. She would do that. I could not ever do that. But I was shocked that as a married woman, my husband was telling me, you have an abortioner, we're getting a divorce. And what was his reasoning for that?

He said he didn't want any more kids. He liked things the way they were. And he wanted to keep it as it was. And unbeknownst to me, he was, can I say screwing? Sure, you can say whatever you want. All right, girl, you shouldn't have said that. He was screwing everything in town and behind my back. And he was just a, he was a narcissist, this guy.

And so it was going to mess up his plans. I guess. I have no idea. But me being so naive, ready to grow old with him, put my teeth in the same jar, and do whatever he wanted me to do, was just devastated. So the morning I had an abortion scheduled because he was insistent. If you do not do this, you're going to tell our three-year-old why her daddy left. That's your fault. And your temperament, you were shocked that he had said that, but then eventually did you come to agree with that idea or were you very resistant the whole time, didn't feel settled about it? I was resistant the whole time, Alex. I was begging him to change his mind. So on a Wednesday, I called the abortion clinic in Charlotte, North Carolina. We lived in a little town called Conover, next to Hickory, where I was born. And she was on the phone with me for hours.

I was telling her my husband doesn't want this baby. I have this three-year-old. I don't want to get a divorce. I came from divorce. And she was so sympathetic to me and just kept saying, you know, you want to save your marriage. Do you really want to do that to your little girl and take her daddy away? that would be a really bad idea. So you need to do the right thing.

You and your husband can have kids when he's ready down the road. But let's get you in. You're so early. There's nothing there anyway. So I made an appointment with her. That was a Wednesday for that Saturday morning. Hey, Alex, he couldn't even take me.

You have a softball tournament. You're kidding. No, he was the, what was he? I don't, a short stop, I think. Yeah, he couldn't miss his softball. So to him, it was like, oh, it's just like going to the bank. Just go run this errand. Yep.

Have an abortion. You're on your own. I'll see you later. Exactly. So every day from that Wednesday to Saturday morning, I was begging him. I was crying. Married people don't do this. Why are you asking me to do this? And he just was adamant. If you don't do this, Vic, I'm going to divorce you. And you can tell our daughter why her daddy left. She was really close with him. And he knew that my baggage from coming from divorce, that was a trigger for me. I didn't use the word trigger then because that's the new word now. But now I get what they're talking about. It took me. It took me. back to that 10-year-old little girl going through divorce. So I didn't want that for my oldest daughter. And so he knew it. He played it against me. And so that Saturday morning, I'll never forget walking in, my friend had to pick me up because remember, he couldn't take me. So she's sitting in the driveway at 7 in the morning. My appointment was at 9 a.m. We had to drive an hour to Charlotte.

He's standing there in the kitchen making his egg whites with his softball uniform on. I'm crying, not saying anything to me, just probably thinking while he's cooking his egg whites, Oh, hurry up and go, hurry up and go, because he knew I was on the fence. Tapped him on the shoulder, crying. Are you sure? Are you sure? Are you sure? Are you sure?

I told you already. You need to go. And tonight, when you get home, I'll take you to your favorite restaurant, which was Jones Fish Camp, best scallops I ever had. So as I'm walking down the stairs, he is standing at the top. I'm about to go out and I turn around and look at him. I said, let me get this straight. if I don't go through with this, you're actually going to leave and divorce me and leave our daughter and leave this marriage.

That's what you're telling me. He said, I'm going to tell you for the last time, if you don't walk out that door and you don't go to Charlotte, I'm leaving. And I said, then you better start packing. I couldn't do it. Wow. My second daughter is 37. She's given me four grandchildren. my first daughter's given me four grandchildren.

She's one of the most incredible human beings you've ever met, and she was this close to dying that day. And when I didn't go through with it, he was very angry. He left for his softball tournament, came back after a couple, you know, he came in late at night because it was a whole weekend thing. On that Sunday, he physically assaulted me to the point where I had to be go to the hospital. Oh, my gosh. Kicked me in the stomach, said that should do it.

And hoping to kill me. the baby. Hoping to kill her. And I bled. I had to go to the hospital. But she survived. They put me on bed rest. He left.

He dropped me off at home and left. I had to crawl to the kitchen to make food. I had to crawl to the bathroom. I was determined to save her life. And she survived. And today she's 37. And her husband, Matt, is very happy. She's here.

And so are her four kids. That is truly a miracle baby. Yeah. So I became a single mom. He did leave when they were three and a half and nine. And three and a half and nine months old, he did finally leave. And we got a divorce. And then it was about two years later that I got into another relationship. Okay. And so what did life look like for you at that point? What kind of hardships were you up against in this new relationship? Well, between the divorce and until I met this new relationship, Alex, it was tough. I did everything I could to stay off of government assistance because my mom had to go on government assistance. And I have not knocked.

that. I was a very stupid young woman. I should have taken, that's why we pay taxes, you know, till we get back on our feet. But I didn't. So I ended up working two jobs. So I was always working to take care of them because their dad, when he left, he went to California, from North Carolina to California, started his own life and never sent child support, never visited, had nothing. He, when he walked out, he was pretty much done. So I wasn't getting help from him. So I was a single desperate mother in a very desperate situation, dropping them off at six in the morning to daycare, to daycare going back at night at 7 o'clock to pick them up. They were begging me to not leave. When did you have time to meet this new guy? He worked out at one of my second jobs. I was a co-manager

of a fitness center in Charlotte on Tavola Road. And he worked out there and that's how we met. And then I fell madly in love. And I was already a woman with self-esteem that was shot to pieces. My husband left. I'm a single mom. I'm feeling very lonely. And so it was easy to fall, Matantly in love with him. But he was a great guy. He really was. And so we fell in love. And nine months later, we were pregnant? Oh, my gosh. Okay. And so were you married at the point or just, no, no, no. We were not married. This is a guy that I met, we were, I was divorced. And now I met him at my job. We were not married. And then you get pregnant. I get pregnant. Okay. And I go to him and say, oh, my gosh, we're pregnant. Now, I'm not

happy about it, but I'm not sad about it. We'd already been talking. Maybe one day we'll get married. Maybe one day we'll have kids of our own. So it was just sped up a little bit. We just speeded that part up. So when I went to him and told him, I was a little surprised by his reaction, which was we're not ready for you can barely take care of the two you've got. Maybe you should consider an abortion until we get married one day and have kids one day. And once again, my world was rocked by that word abortion. But at this point, I'm not married. I'm single. I've got two little girls looking at me every day at six in the morning when I drop them off at daycare crying, begging me not to leave. And we're struggling that I don't even know how I'm going to put food

on the table day after day after day. Their dad isn't in their life. He's not supporting us at all, taking care of them. So it was a really difficult time in my life. So it was easier for me to be manipulated into making a choice that I've regretted to this day. See, in that I can sympathize with. Like, I understand in those moments when a woman is in a crisis pregnancy, things are very rocky, unstable in her life for her to be swayed to have an abortion. Like, that's not unfathomable to me. I understand that.

So when he says this, you're like, okay, maybe he's right. maybe an abortion is going to be the best thing. Yeah, he says it, and then I call and he'll never believe it, but the same woman is on the phone that was on the phone trying to talk me into aborting my second daughter. And you instantly recognized her voice. Instantly recognized her name and her voice. And so how did that make you feel?

Now, well, she didn't know it was me because who knows how many women, but I share with her the whole story, and I mean the whole story about my ex leaving, I'm struggling. my boyfriend and I are now, we're not married, you know, everything. And she says, now, honey, you'd be really selfish as a mom to bring another mouth to feed when you can barely take care of the two you've got. This is the best choice for you. You're so young, you can have more kids later.

Let's get you in here right away because it's not going to take 15, 20 minutes. You're so early in your pregnancy. Same words, because I was about the same amount of time pregnant. You know what's interesting is the way that you describe how this abortion worker talked to you, it sounds to me like someone at a department makeup store counter trying to upsell you on a certain foundation or a certain perfume. Like, you know, this would really just make your life easier. Your skin is going to look so great. You know, let's go ahead and make that appointment. Let's get you to make the sale.

It feels like that. It is, though. Alex, it's a business. The abortion industry is a business. It's a multi-billion dollar industry. I get tired of hearing people tell me, oh, they're about women's health. women's rights. It's crap. It's bull crap. It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with greed. That is the bottom line. Because when I went that day to have an abortion, that was during the week, I had an appointment. See, Saturdays, I found out now that I know, because of the work that I do, were their kill days. This particular center abortion clinics. It was a Planned Parenthood. It's their kill day was that Saturday back 30 some years ago. So they get you in on.

that Saturday and they fill those slots, man, they fill those slots. So that once again, it was a Saturday that I'm going to drive myself to the abortion clinic because he was out of town for business, my boyfriend. So I get a sitter to take care of my two little girls. I lie and tell her I'm going to the mall. Funny you bring up the mall to go shopping for things I need, be back in a few hours, and I drive myself to this abortion clinic. And while I'm driving the 20 minutes there, I have my hand on my stomach telling this blob of tissue, this clump of cells, which she convinced me it was on the phone. But then why am I there with my hand on my stomach saying, please forgive me for what I'm about to do? This is the best choice for you. You don't want to be

brought into this mess of my life. Your sisters, they have to go to daycare, 12, 14 hours a day. It's just not a good life right now. So this is the best choice for you. But I'm sorry. And so you were holding your stomach, driving to the abortion center, talking to that unborn child. Talking to the unborn child that I had been convinced was nothing, wasn't even there. So when I got there and I walked in, again, I'm there alone. I went up to the fourth, fifth floor, whatever it was, I got on the elevator. And when I walked into that abortion clinic, it was, there were women everywhere. And what was the tone?

Was it somber? Was it exciting? Everybody's happy. Oh, gosh. No, Alex. It was somber. Nobody was looking around. Everyone was looking down, either pretending they were looking at magazines or at their fingernails, not looking at any. This was before cell phones, so nothing like that. Some had men there, boyfriends or husbands, I guess they were. I don't know. But it was a majority of women there alone. And when the same woman from the phone who sold me my appointment, because they are trained to do that, Alex. They're very trained to use specific terminology to get women's appointments, to secure the appointments. And then, once they come in. When she brings me into her office to collect the $350 cash, at that time, that's what a first trimester abortion cost. And I was about six to eight weeks. She's sitting there, I'm crying. I'm still crying. In the waiting room, I'm crying. In the car, I'm crying. I mean,

this should have been a clue. When you don't tell your mother something, it's a clue, girls. And I told no one. So I'm in the room with her, and she's across at her desk, and she's looking at me, and she's so sympathetic and showing me so much compassion and, oh, it's going to be okay. It's going to be okay, honey. And, you know, when you leave here, never think of this again. Remember what I told you on the phone? This is the best choice for you. You're so early there's nothing there.

You're going to be fine. You can even go out tonight. You're going to feel good enough to go out tonight if you want to go out. Do you think our government would let this be legal if it could harm you? anyway. We'll never forget her saying that. As soon as I handed her $350 bucks, she put it in her money drawer, slammed it shut, looked at me and pointed her finger, said, just so you know, if you change your mind when you're on that table, you don't get your money back. We don't give refunds here. So nice. That compassionate woman showed her true

colors, which should have been a clue for me. Well, and also talking about, well, would the government really ever let anything happen, you know, bad happen to you? Would they let it be legal if it was bad. And I'm thinking in my mind when you said that all of the different things that the government has allowed, you know, whether that's Teflon or whatever, there's so many different things, right, that have harmed us, that has harmed the human race that was legal. At some point, slavery was legal. You know, like there's things like that. And I think in hindsight, well, we know better now. Yeah. We do. But at that point, I'm a 20, gosh, what was I, 22-year-old, 23-year-old young woman. Yeah. Who's desperate. And she's, you know, the expert.

I'm saying in quotes. And she's the expert telling me, you're going to be fine. You can have children later. You're so young when you're ready. So they bring me into the next room. The doctor walks in, tells me scoot down, spread your legs, does his thing. I'm crying the whole time looking up at the ceiling. Literally, I can remember feeling like I wanted to scream.

I changed my mind. Get me off this table. But I was so paralyzed, Alex, I couldn't talk. The nurse was rubbing my arm, whatever she was. She may not even have been a nurse. I laid anybody in there these days. And she was rubbing my arm and just saying, it's almost over. You're going to be fine.

It's almost over. And as he's walking out, I yelled after him and said, what was it? Was it a girl or a boy? What was it? And I was really upset. And he just turned around and threw his hands up and said, I don't have time for this. I don't know. You were too early.

And he walked out. Oh, my gosh. They put me in a recovery room, said, take these two tie and I'll stay here. Every makeshift bed in that room was, what? was full. No, there was not one that was empty. There were women wailing. There were women young, older, grabbing their stomachs, bent over. Some looked like they were in shock, traumatized. I got out of there in five minutes. I didn't last. As soon as I walked out, I knew I was never going to be the same. And I wasn't. Did you have a quiet ride home? I had a very emotional ride home.

and when I got home, I gave the babysitter money to stay longer because I knew I couldn't take care of them. You just needed some time to yourself. I needed to get in bed, and I stayed in the fetal position for quite a while, and then I ended up probably staying in that bed for a couple weeks. And the kids didn't understand why was Mommy so sad.

But then I had to snap out of it. I had two little girls that were looking at me that needed me, and I had to bury it, which is what I did for a decade. I just buried it. Buried it into believing it really was a clump of cells. It really wasn't anything more than a blob of tissue. You know, maybe I'm the only woman that feels this way because she said I'd be fine. She said everyone does, there's so many women that do this and they're fine, which was a lie after lie after lie.

But they have to lie to you. They lie to you at the most vulnerable time of your life. They manipulate you and lie to you because they know they just need that money. If they cared, Alex, about women, when these girls today are taking the abortion pill because they contact me and they change their minds and they call back to these abortion clinics and say, I've changed my mind, have taken one pill, help me, what can I do? Why don't they tell them about abortion pill reversal.com? Yes.

Why don't they tell them about that? They already have their money. What I just saw, which was I sent this article to my best friend Lauren, And I was like, dude, you got to read this. Because the Washington Post just a few weeks ago in October came out with that whole article about how women are ordering the abortion pill from Mexico who live in states where abortion isn't legal anymore. And they're sending it. But for the women that are super far along, Mexico is sending them acid as well as the abortion pill. And they're telling them, now when this baby comes out of you after you take the abortion pill, it's going to look like, well, what comes out of you is going to look like a baby?

They say it'll look like a baby, but you know, allegedly it's not a baby. And then they say, but you need to have this acid so that when you put it in the toilet or you try to bury it or whatever, you can dump this acid on it so it will dissolve the body. And guess what? The women that are putting those babies in the toilets to dissolve them with that acid, that is not approved by our, that is not approved by our government to be in our water supply. And so all this acid stuff from Mexico is now getting to the American water supply. So this is a whole new thing that the pro-life movement now is having to take. tackle and explain that all this stuff is all coming from, you know, when you take an abortion pill. Not to mention the trauma. Not to mention the trauma. Of course. And nobody's talking about that.

I have getting messages from young women who are delivering their dead children because they call to get these abortion pills. You can only be, if you're under 10 weeks, you can take the abortion pill. If you're over 10 weeks, it's very dangerous. It's dangerous anyway. But over 10 weeks. So these girls call, hey, doctor, hey nurse, I need the abortion pill. Well, how far along are you? you, how far long do I need to be? Are you under 10 weeks? Oh, yeah, I'm under 10 weeks. When they know they're 14, 15, 16 weeks pregnant. They lie. They're taking the abortion bill. They're not even checking. They're not having them come in for a doctor's appointment. They're not checking them through ultrasound to determine how far long they truly are. They're just

sending the pill. And you know what they say? What's your credit card number? Well, the pro, you know, the pro choice side is going to say to you or I, they would say, well, see, that's why we need to have abortion, illegal safe, legal abortions. That's what then these women wouldn't have to be lying and getting the abortion pills. So what would your response be? My response would be there is no safe legal abortion. I'm so sick and tired of people talking about it being safe and legal. I heard one of those actresses the other day talking about colonoscopy being safer or not as safe as an abortion. I don't even remember what idiotic thing she said. Elizabeth Banks was talking about comparing colonoscopy to a, I mean, give me a freaking break. I've had four colonoscopies. I'm still here.

I mean, a baby dies in an abortion. Not to mention, there are hundreds of women who've died from having abortions. So let's talk about, show me the list of hundreds of people who've died from colonoscopies. And I'm not downplaying. People can have adverse reactions to anything. But stop comparing, what is it, apples to oranges? I mean, give me a break. So I would say to them, there is no safe legal abortion.

And if you want to tell me somebody that walks out of an abortion clinic like I did, able later to have more children. But, and praise God, I was okay because I know a lot of women who've never been able to have more children after an abortion. Let's talk about the mental health issues of women. Let's talk about the suicide rates of women. Let's talk about the alcoholism, the periscuity because they just want to feel something. So then they're being promiscuous. Their self-esteem is shot again. So they continue the cycle.

Contracting STDs. I'm so sick of the argument that's a lie that they're talking points to make them feel good about what they're saying. but these, hey, I'm sorry, some of these idiots are buying into it. If you watched my Instagram stories at all last week, and then you saw how I ended up in Oklahoma City for the first time ever due to delayed flights and a weather mess. So there I am in the Uber, and I ask the driver what a must is for someone staying in Oklahoma City. And I kid you not, he said, order a steak.

All of the cows here are grass-fed and local, and you'll have the best steak you've ever eaten in the city. So what did I do? I ordered a filet that night. And he was right. It was so freaking good. You really can taste the difference. But little did he know, Mr. Uberman, I taste the difference in my stakes even when I'm at home making dinner in my little apartment.

Because I get all my meat delivered from Good Ranchers. The couple who started Good Ranchers just had a simple motive for starting the company, okay? They wanted to know where their meat came from, a novel idea. even other meat delivery companies seem to be just as sketch as meat from the grocery store. They wanted people to stop paying premium prices for low-quality imported products. They wanted them to get 100% American affordable, hormone-free, antibiotic-free, better-than-organic, pasture-raised, conservative-owned meat. Good Rantters is that, and they deliver straight to your door. And this holiday season, you could even give it as a gift.

Take advantage of their best deal of the year right now. 12-ounce black Angus New York strips and two pasture-raised chicken breast free when you order with my code. Go to good ranchers.com slash Clark with code Clark and you will get two perfectly marbled tender steaks and two flavorful chicken breasts straight from the best ranchers in the U.S. Good ranchers. American meat delivered. So let's go back to that day that you did have your abortion. Did you eventually that night after laying in bed for a few hours decide that you needed a call your boyfriend and let him know that you'd gone through with it?

Well, he actually called me that afternoon because there was no cell phones. So he calls me that afternoon and he's out of town for work and he says, hey, I've been thinking about it. Let's just not do it. He said, let's just, let's, we'll figure this out. I said, you're too late. 24 hours had I, but their kill days were Saturday. He wasn't back until Monday.

There was no way that it, you know, I've reconciled that in my mind now because I went back and forth. What? What? Oh my gosh. Just those few hours would have made all the difference. So then how did Gerald's relationship look post-abortion? It was deteriorated. Women have abortions.

They think to keep their husbands, to keep their boyfriends. And nine out of ten times when an abortion occurs in a relationship, Alex, they don't make it. The abortion is such a traumatic experience. It's a constant reminder of what you did. I never looked at him the same after that. He was supposed to protect me. He was supposed to love me, but yet he let me go through something like that on my own. And he never looked at me the same, I'm sure, because he, I'm sure, asked himself,

oh, my gosh, I can't believe she actually did it. And so we just never looked at each other the same. Our relationship fell apart. We were through within a year, year and a half. But it was never the same. So how did your road to redemption really begin? Oh my gosh, it was a long, long road. Of course, like I told you, I buried it as long as I could.

I started noticing I started parenting my girls different. Really? I did. I started smothering them. I was terrified God was going to punish me by taking one of them for what I'd done. So I needed to know where they were every second. I stopped letting them play with friends' houses. I'd make the friends come to our house.

In the car, I'd make sure they were so tight. Like living in paranoia. Oh my gosh. Constantly. I was so sure and begging God every day, please, please don't take one of them. It's not their fault. I'm the one who did it. They didn't do it.

Please, please don't punish me. Thinking that's the kind of God that he is, which I know today he isn't. He's not that way at all. But those things I dated guys who were very abusive, I felt like I deserve to be knocked around, cheated on, lied to, and called bad names because I killed my baby. I mean, of course this is what's going to happen for the rest of my life. I don't deserve anything more than this. So I married someone I shouldn't have married. We were married for 18 years. We have two children and he's not a terrible guy, but I married him for reasons I shouldn't have more for financial security, really, to be honest. And he was so different than the guys that I dated. And I

felt like, yeah, well, well, I deserve this too. You know, it'll be what. It'll be what it is. And then we started going to church. And we were going to a church. And the woman who was the director of the local pregnancy center was a member of the church we were attending. And she started coming up to me out of the blue, introducing herself and then telling me what she did at the pregnancy center. We all know what local pregnancy centers do. They give women options. Without judgment or condemnation, unbeknownst to the pro-choice side that tries to condemn them, they're doing more than most Christians are doing. They truly offer choices, unlike the woman from Planned Parenthood, who you spoke to on the phone,

who was just convincing you the whole time, get an abortion, that's your choice, that's your choice. Exactly. That's their only choice. The only choice at a pro-choice rally is abortion. They don't talk about options. At a pregnancy center, they're giving you options and letting you make the decision without judgment. And then if you choose abortion, they're there to help you with the trauma afterwards. So how's that bad?

So she was the director and she kept coming up to me saying, Victoria, you're so good with the youth here at our church. You'd be such a great volunteer at our pregnancy center. And I just kept going, oh, sure, Mary, okay. I'm going to, Mary, I'll be there going back to God going, what are you trying to torture me? You want me to go work at this pregnancy center and volunteer so that I can be reminded of what I've done? Right, but she didn't know, right? She didn't know. Yeah.

Nobody knew. But I knew God knew. So I thought this was more punishment from him, sending Mary. I mean, Alex, I'd be at the grocery store and there's Mary coming around the corner. Victoria, when are you going to come volunteer? Hi, Mary. And I would be angry. I just felt so angry because I just felt like that was my punishment, more punishment that I was already giving myself.

So three years, this precious woman isn't giving up trying to get me to come volunteer. And in that three years, I'm asked to be part of a women's ministry team at the church. It's like a church of 7,000 people. I'm already leading worship there. Jeez, that's big. Oh, yeah, it's a big church. Every week leading worship, I'm paranoid. Somebody's going to be able to tell that I've had an abortion.

Like, it's a tattoo written on your face. On my head. Like they're going to say, get off that platform. You have no business singing worship songs here in church. We know what you did. That's all I'm thinking every week, week after week after week. But I kept saying yes when they'd asked me to because I thought, okay, this is my penance. I've got to say yes to everything the church asked me to do.

then I won't feel so bad about what I've done. And so Mary's coming to me in those three years. And in that three year time, I'm asked to be part of his women's team, this women's ministry team. And now women are coming to me for prayer at all of our conferences. It's always me that gets the women who've had abortions. Can you pray for me? I've had an abortion. I can't get over it. I'd pray for them. I'd watch God just transform and heal them before my eyes. They'd walk away feeling less, feeling lighter. then I'd get more angry Alex. I got really, really, I had some really bad, ugly come to Jesus meetings at my house. Just me and him.

It was ugly. I mean, it was ugly. I'll leave it at that. So for three years as this is going on, women are coming to me, right? Mary's coming to me everywhere I go. I'm having it wrestling with God about all of this. Why are these women seeking me out that don't even know I've had an abortion? Why are I the one they're asking for prayer?

Why are you constantly throwing Mary in my face? So this one particular woman comes up to me, and she tells me it's been 27 years. And she's whispering in my ear because nobody knows, but her husband who's died. And she's telling me her story, and I pray with her. 27 years since she had an abortion? Yep. And I pray with her. And she starts sobbing and says, I have never felt this free.

Thank you. Thank you, God. I mean, she was just completely changed. that one really pissed me off. I don't know why that was the one. I wasn't pissed for her. Yeah. I was pissed at him because of me.

So I go home, I'm having it out with him for a couple hours because I'm alone. The kids are gone for wherever they were. And after I'm on the ground going at it, I hear this still voice in my head saying, after I'm screaming, when are you going to heal me? What about me? Why did these women get healed? Why did they find some sense of forgiveness from you, but I don't? When are you going to forgive me?

And he said, I've been trying. And right at that moment I saw Mary's face and I realized Mary somehow, I didn't know then, was the person that he was trying to use to help me realize he's already forgiven me. So I called Mary the next day and said, I'm ready to volunteer. She said, great, we have volunteer training starting next week. I was like seriously. So I got in volunteer training. It took me a few months.

I went in Mary's office, shut the door. Mary, I have to tell you something. I told her. She said, I know. I said, how'd you know? She said, I just knew. I just knew. Now we're going to get you an abortion recovery.

It's going to change your life. And God is going to take what the enemy meant to destroy you, Vic, and use it for good to help others. Because your story is going to help others, and you're going to reach the nations. And that was 20, almost 27 years. What kinds of things in abortion recovery did they tell you that helped? Oh, my gosh. Alex, when I, even after all of that, she called to find out there was an abortion recovery weekend.

The first one of its kind, because it's an eight-week study they put in a weekend for three and a half days. They had one spot left. It was an hour and a half drive for me to Greenville, South Carolina. And the whole way driving is pouring, the torrential, the kind of rain where you can't really see. And I'm still, after all this, oh my gosh, why am I even going here? What am I doing driving here? I was such a stubborn little Italian. I mean, I was like, what am I doing driving in this rain? But I kept driving. I kept driving. So that Thursday night when we met, the two facilitators, Trina and Carolyn, looked at me and said, everyone tell us a little bit about

yourself. You know, there's still small church lady voices that I wanted to smack. And they get to me and I say, Hey, I'm Victoria. I don't even know why I'm here. I've begged God for 10 years to forgive me to help me feel better about myself. He hasn't. I don't know how you're going to help me in three and a half days. But Mary said I needed to be here. So I'm here.

Well, we're just happy you're here, Victoria. On Sunday, I walked up to them a different woman and said, every woman who's had an abortion needs to know this exists. Oh, my gosh. Every woman who had an abortion needs to know God forgives. God loves them. He can use their pain to help somebody else. You have to tell me how to do this so that I can help other women.

And they looked at me and said, we already know, Victoria, we've already met because we want to mentor you and train you to do these weekends because you're going to make a difference for women. Oh, my gosh. I've been doing them ever since. Holy cow! Look at that. Let's go, God. I'm telling you, Alex, from Thursday, when these women show up, some it's been. decades and decades of pain of feeling so helpless like God could never. And by Sunday,

they're set free. And it doesn't mean they forget, you know, sometimes when I speak at events, I get very emotional like I am right now because my heart just bleeds for those people. There's millions of them right now, some that will be watching this saying, thinking to themselves, could that happen for me? Could I get help like that? Because they're dying inside. And they're sitting in church after church after church, week after week. And some pastors aren't even addressing the abortion issue.

So they're internalizing that to mean, see, that's the one sin. God can't forgive. My own pastor won't talk about it. And it breaks my heart because I see them come on Thursday like I did. I was stubborn in just a ballbuster. these women that some of them that come on Thursday are just broken to the point that they're just like, you know, I'm numb. Do you think that the pro-life movement makes a mistake when we say things like abortion is murder because of how women who have had abortion may interpret that and then be resistant to getting help? Well, you know, I used to always say that, but it is murder.

And it's difficult. It is. and it's hard for those women to hear, especially today. Everybody's talking about abortion, but I want to tell you a really quick story. My second daughter, the one that was almost aborted, I never was going to tell her that her dad wanted her aborted and tried to kill her. She knows now.

Of course, she does now. No, she's known. But when she was a teenager, 12, 13, she found a letter when she was going through some of my boxes, and she found a letter that I had written to him about everything. I never mailed it. And she asked me, mom, can I go with you to the store? And she jumped in the car.

And she said, hey, mommy, I need to ask you a question. Why didn't you ever tell me my dad wanted you to abort me? And I almost drove the car off the road. And I said, babe, who told you that? She told me how she found out. And I felt like the Lord said you need to tell her. And of course I was like, no, please don't make me tell her. Because I had not told my girls at that point.

And I said, honey, having you was the greatest decision I ever made. I'm so thankful I did not go through with aborting you. And I'm so thankful you're here. God has a purpose for your life. I am so happy. I can't imagine my life without you. But I do need to tell you something that a couple years later I did choose abortion when mommy was single, taking care of you and your sister.

And she started crying and said this. I'm so sorry that you've had to look. at that abortion is murder sign in my bedroom because she had walked in a walk and held that sign and had it in her room for the past couple years from the walk. She said, every day you've had to look at that, Mommy, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry, Mommy, I didn't know or I would have taken it down. I said, honey, but it's true. It's true. So yes, it is a trigger for women who've had abortions. Yes, the talk, but we also can't not call it what it is. So that's a trigger. So that's a trigger for women who've had abortions. So that's why I try to reach as many people as I can with the message of hope and with the message of redemption and forgiveness and that it doesn't matter what you've done.

It matters where you're going. And you can have a life after abortion. And so this woman came up to me where I was speaking and I got really emotional and she said, Victoria, I'm so worried about you. I said, what do you mean? And she said, you just got so emotional tonight when you were speaking at our banquet. And are you sure you know you've been forgiven? And I said, have you had children? She said, I have three.

If you lost one of them, how would that affect your life? She said, I'd be devastated. I said, women like me are devastated too. And we'll grieve our children the rest of our life until we see them again. Just because we chose doesn't mean we're not devastated, especially when we come to the point where we realize those were our children. It's difficult. God created women to give life to nurture. that's how we were made.

So when we realized, oh my gosh, it wasn't a blob of tissue. It wasn't a clump of cells. It really was my baby. That's difficult. Men, God created to protect their women, to protect their children. So when men realize they participated in the death of their child, it's just as devastating for them. Yeah, no one I feel like ever I hear talking in the pro-life movement, I feel like no one in the pro-life movement really does ever address the effects that abortion has on men.

So what are the effects? My gosh, Alex, I'm so glad we're talking about it. And that's why I wrote my second book, because I've been talking about men for two decades. And the reason that I started talking about about men wasn't because I just had this epiph. Well, I did, but it wasn't like I thought, oh, I'm going to just be that girl that's talking about what others aren't. What happened was I called the father of my aborted child after I went through that weekend retreat. I called him when I wrote my first book, They Lied to Us, that I had put stories of women who had abortion, my stories in there in detail,

and I thought he probably should know we have a lot of the same friends still. Even though I took out any identifying factors about him in the book, I just had this sense of obligation to tell him. We had not spoken since we broke up. So it had been over a decade. when I called him and he answered the phone I said hey it's me it's all I said he started sobbing what he started sobbing he knew it was me and he was talking but I couldn't understand him so I was in shock first of all and he finally composed himself and said I've been waiting for this colvic for over 10 years

to beg you for forgiveness for what I made you do it has haunted me all these years and I've been in therapy, eight years dealing with it. I should have protected you and our baby and I failed you both. Can you ever forgive me? He was so broken that in that moment, this good little Christian girl who thought she was realized two things. One, I hadn't fully forgiven him. I was still holding, even after coming out of that weekend, because a lot of forgiveness takes place in that weekend, I was still holding on to a little bit. In that moment, I did. And I felt like my healing was full circle. the second thing that happened was I felt in my heart that some people think that's weird but I'm not that smart I felt like God spoke to my heart and said don't forget these men these children have fathers and these fathers are hurting from that moment on I have not ever not talked about men others have said you don't need to talk about men men are they're just out there getting girls pregnant and they're happy when girls well that at the moment some of them are are, a lot of them are. But they start dealing with the same effects that women do that are post-abortive.

They're depressed. They repress their feelings. A lot of men become workaholics. They can't bond with their living children if they have children later or they already had children because they're afraid, once again, God's going to take one of them or I have no right to love on this child when I killed this one. So I really, that's just wrong. They have too much guilt and shame about it. They are promiscuous. They just want to feel they can't commit. A lot of men can't commit from an abortion. Well, you know, that would make a lot of sense if that's what's going on with these. I'm for all I know. I don't know, you know. That's like it is such an epidemic. I mean, I will say this telling blue in the face, but just dating in my 20s, it is such an epidemic these men that can't

commit. I'm like, dude, maybe most of them have dealt with having abortion at some point, you know, the girl that they were with having an abortion. And maybe. It may. Maybe it's affected them and they're just too ashamed to talk about. I don't know it yet. I don't know it yet. I'm dating too, girl. We're both single. We are?

In my 50s. No way. We can do a whole podcast. We should. Oh my gosh. So many cute servants would be like, have her back so we can talk about just dating, you know, 40s plus. We should because I can tell you I could write four books on the last 12 years of being single. I feel like I can write four books on the last 10 years of being single in my 20s.

So it's probably true. It's the culture. I mean, I had a guy last week, just last week, 59-year-old guy. He's divorced. He's been divorced 28 years. His parents are gone. He has no siblings. And he's sitting there telling me the greatest regret of my life.

I said, what is it? He said, is I'd never had children. I'm the only child I had. She killed. His wife was in law school. And I had an abortion because she was not going to let it interfere. And he sat back and did nothing because we've emasculated men. To the point, Alex, to tell them, stay over there, shut up.

It's not your body, not your choice. Right. No ovaries, no opinion. It ain't her body either, okay, if we want to get technical. It's not. It's two bodies. But we've emasculated them that they're going, I don't know what to do. Do I do anything?

What do I do? They don't know what to do. So I say to men, stand up and be the men God created you to be. Start speaking up. Fight for that child, even if she's saying she's going to abort your child so that you'll know you did everything possible to save that child's life and not have to live. with the guilt that millions of men today live with because they did nothing but say, I'm not allowed to say anything. But the pro-abortion side has convinced men to keep their mouth shut that they

have nothing to do with it, Alex, because they know if they get involved, it changes the ballgame. It changes everything because most men, if they would stand up and say, we'll do whatever we need to do. I'm going to be there with you. I'll help support this child. We don't have to get married, but I'm not going anywhere. These women wouldn't walk into abortion clinics. Yes, there are women that use it as birth control, but they are very rare. They are very few. Isn't it true that it is the majority of women that are choosing get abortions are married and usually do already have children?

The majority of women that are having abortions married? I don't know that I've heard that statistic. The majority, to me, it's about both. I mean, I can't say it's the majority are married women. It's a lot more of women I'm meeting. They were single when they had their abortions. Okay, gotcha. Now, some are married as well.

Not some, many. But I don't know if that's a higher stat. It could be, I haven't seen it if it is. So it could be a new one that can't. So where do you find these men who are willing to talk about their abortion stories? Because I'm like, you know, any man I know, it's been hard to get them to even consider therapy, let alone I'm going to go to a retreat for men that have had girlfriends that have had abortions. Well, most of the men that are in my book are older men.

in their 30s, late 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, I mean, because they've dealt with it all these years, they're ready to talk about it. But none of the names in the book are their names. They've asked me to not use their names because they've said, I don't want her to recognize it's me if she would happen to read your book. I don't know where she's at. I don't know what she's doing. I don't want to cause any problems for her.

Where do I find them when I go speak at churches, when I go speak at conferences, when I speak at events, when I do interviews like this, they'll reach out to me through my website and say, I'm one of those guys because I tell them, you have my word, it's confidential, nobody will know who you are. Can I share your story? Yes, just don't ever tell them who I am. That's always what they ask me to do. They want to talk.

When I speak at churches, Alex, and I talk about this issue and I always talk about the men, or wherever I'm at, men walk up to my book table and say, thank you. Finally, somebody's talking about it. Finally, somebody's saying we're hurting too because I'm one of those men. What is one of the stories that a man has shared with you that's just been burned in your memory forever of him talking about being affected by abortion? Yeah, there's so many. This one was really heartbreaking. There was a guy, him and his girlfriend had been together since they were in junior high.

Their parents were friends. They were all best friends. And they lived in the same neighborhood. And when they started dating as teenagers, the parents, they were all Christians, the parents trusted them. They never questioned them when they were alone together, when they were out of town, whatever, never questioned them. So they started having sex.

And she was 17, he was 18, I believe, when they got pregnant. They didn't want to tell the parents because they were so, they felt horrible about disappointing the parents because they trusted them so much. So they went back and forth, back and forth. What do we do? they had many times they were going to tell the parents they had decided but they couldn't do it it was because not for fear they'd never said you will throw you out it wasn't that it was the disappointing factor so she was about six months pregnant they had to drive to new jersey to have

the abortion he drove her there it was going to be an overnight thing she had to stay and then he was going to drive back it was two or three hours drive back and pick her up the next morning So he took her, dropped her off, and left, went back home. He gets home, he goes straight to his bedroom. His mom's in the kitchen cooking. He said, I'll never forget it. I just beeline to my bedroom. I didn't want to see her talk to anybody.

She comes right behind him, Alex, walks in the door, says, hey, what's going on? Is she pregnant? How in the world does his mother figure that out? It's just a mom thing? He said, I don't know. So she looked at him and said, is she pregnant? He said, yeah, Mom, don't worry, don't worry.

I just dropped her off and told her where she was. She said, you cannot do that. Get in the car. Go back. Before cell phones, go back and get her. We will be fine. We will make this work. You cannot do it.

It's wrong. Go back. He goes back. They said the abortion would take place the next morning. They were going to give her some medication the night before because it's a late-term abortion. It's a lot more in-depth and a lot more things you have. to do. The abortion wasn't supposed to take place till the next morning. He gets there. He's banging on the door, banging on the door, banging on the door. They finally, one of the workers answers

the door because it's locked. And he's screaming for her. And she finally appears and she has a gown on. And he says, I told my mom, she knows, she knows, we don't have to do it. We don't have to do it. She said everything's going to be okay. And she says it's too late. It was a boy. He's haunted to this day. He has a son that doesn't know. One son, and that was another unplanned pregnancy with some girl he was messing around with, but he told her, he said the first thing I said to her when she told me she was pregnant is, I don't care if you marry me. I don't care if we stay together, you will not have an abortion. I will support this child. And he is an incredible father to this boy who's now in his late 20s. But he doesn't know he has a brother. That is a visceral image of her being in that gown and him. stand through the door being like you don't have to do it.

Her saying it's too late. Just like that phone call I got. So if men would start stepping up and they would just start being who they're created to be, they could stand up and say, we're going to figure this out. Yes, of course there are going to be those women who say you don't get to say you don't have and they're going to go through with it. But there are a lot of women who would not, if men would just stand up, and have a voice.

And if not, they're gonna suffer the same devastating consequences that so many women do. I was beside myself watching that episode on The Season of Love is Blind in the last couple weeks of Nancy and Bartis having this abortion conversation. And I like did a whole, I was just like went out to lunch and I had my team film me just going off about it.

We put it on YouTube on Poplitics YouTube because I was just so floored by this conversation. First of all, if you haven't seen it, this woman Nancy, she works with, she's like a speech therapist or whatever. So she works with like kids with disabilities. And it's like, because I work with, this is so backwards, because I work with kids with disabilities, I would never want to have a kid that has any problem. So I would absolutely abort it, which is very cold. And this guy, Bartis, is immediately like, wow, that's evil. And he's had a lot of, you know, mushy middle stuff.

Like to you and I as a prolifer, I'm like, oh, he's wrong. like him being like, well, you know, she's really young and she's got it hard, I guess in that situation or in rape or incest, I guess in that situation you could. But otherwise, I don't think I agree with abortion. So he's like a mushy middle. I think he could be persuaded to be a hardcore pro-liper, you know what I mean? But I wanted to ask you about that scene and just the tension between them, him hearing her thoughts on abortion.

And then what ends up happening for those who've watched it is, you know, basically his family meets her, this woman and they're like, you cannot marry this girl. This is so beyond evil. And just their reaction in response to her very, very, very pro-choice, no matter what, for any means. Yeah, my first thought when she said that was run. Run, Bartis, run. This woman literally just told you if you guys get pregnant and she chooses to have an abortion, she's having one. I love what he said, and he did say a lot of mushy stuff. So it was kind of like snap out of it, dude, quit, you know, whatever. You're just trying to get in her pants. Just say the truth. And the truth is there is no reason to have a, nothing. But she, okay, here's what drove me nuts about her, what you just said,

Alex, about, oh, well, but you don't know what I deal with. You know, I have kids with speech pathology and this and that, whatever. Down syndrome, she says. Yes, yes. And he said, it's our kid though if it comes out with three legs it's still our kid it's still our child that I was going yes yes Bartis

go I had to learn to say his name by the way but I honestly the first thing I thought Alex was run dude get out but you know what happens to him in that conversation with Nancy on Love is blind is what so many men in the dating world

I think deal with which is he feels pretty strong and passionate about his views until she starts saying, but I'm the woman. It's my say, you don't have a say, and you start to see him visibly just get a little bit more. He backs off a little bit because he does feel uncomfortable and he is like, oh, is it my place? Can I say my views on abortion?

Right there. The corner. It's go get in the corner. So he started falling into that. Yeah. That's what's happening. And that's why I'm saying to men to challenge them, don't get in the corner.

So how should men be encouraged to stand for, life when it comes to debating a pro-choice woman. How should they? Yeah. Like, what do they say? How can they convince a pro-choice woman that my opinion is valuable to on abortion? Well, the first thing they should do is the reason I think that pro-choice women don't have their respect for men is because they are out there sleeping around.

And they are out there making a lot of them, making it look like, I don't really value women. So start by valuing women. If men would just start respecting and valuing women better by realizing that's not okay either guy, whether you get her pregnant or not, that's not okay. Have a little more respect. But a pro-life guy to a pro-choice woman has every right because he should, look, I just had a conversation yesterday with this girl who says to me, when a guy can carry a baby for nine months, then he'll have say what I can and can't do with this baby if I want to abort. And when I choose to have a kid, I'll have it. And she said, until then, he has no say in anything I do.

Really? Well, she was just bashing men. And I said, so what are you going to do then when you want a baby? Because you're going to need his sperm. You're going to. And then she said, well, no, science is working on that right now. Science is working on the fact we won't need his sperm either. I'm really like, really?

Whether you use his penis or you don't. Well, you know something we don't know. Yeah. If you use his penis or not, you're going to need his sperm either. sperm. So we don't, we've taught women not to respect men that it is their body, their choice. So that's where the argument's got to start. The truth has got to start, Alex, with us telling the truth, which is that it's not your body. Yes. It's two bodies. And he has every right to say to her, well, with all due respect, though, it isn't your body. There's two body, you know, you're carrying,

it's my child if I get you pregnant. So I have say, well, you want me to pay child support, though, after you have the baby, right? You're going to come after me and with everything you can to get me to pay and support the child because it's my child. So why isn't it my child now just because you're saying it's my body, my choice? I think that men have to respect a woman first because women have already got a wall up for men. We've done that as well in our society to make them the bad guy. If we can put the respect both on both parties for women and men and men stop treating women like they're just pieces of meat for their own pleasure. And I'm not just talking about secular men.

I'm talking about Christian men because I don't know how many dates you've had with Christian men, but I've had dates with Christian men that I'm saying, check please. I don't know what Bible you're reading, dude, but it's not the same one I'm reading. But this is what we're dealing with is this is progressive Christianity. So speaking of Christianity, how do women in the church who identify as Christian, who identify as pro-life? How well do you think they handle the topic of abortion and women who have had abortion? women who have had an abortion like how they treat them

yeah I've met my share who still call me a murderer to my face and I just look at them and say you need more prayer than I do honey and that's

I call it legalistic Christianity is what I call it they're so judgmental and condemning and I'm getting I haven't met a lot I'm sure they're out there I've met a very few

but these pro-life abolitionist, they're some of the worst, Alex, as far as the condemning and the judging. I mean, they have said some of the most vile, ugly things to women who've had abortions. And it's really unfortunate because that's the opinion. When the pro-choice sees them doing that, they lump us all into that same kind of category. So there are those women in the church that love on women like me. When I do my retreats, Alex, I have two non-negotiables. One, every woman that's participating must have her own room.

She can't be doing work in a room with strangers. She needs her own room. So whatever event place we rent has to be big enough for everybody to have their own room. Second, non-negotiable is I want one woman there who has not had an abortion who has a heart for these women. And the reason is she represents the church and how the church should have treated them. And that woman can't be one that's the one you're talking about. It's got to be someone who truly has a heart and a love for these women and compassion for them to say, I am so sorry that that was the choice you felt you had to make.

But you know what, God loves you. And I'm not here to judge and condemn you. I'm just here to help. I just want to help. And on the Thursday night when we start, when I do introductions and they know that that woman's there, they tell me on Sunday the first night I thought, why is she even here? How does she relate to us? She hasn't had an abortion.

on Sunday, they're thanking her for being there because they say if you don't judge and condemn me, maybe everybody won't because they've felt that from the church. When churches aren't talking about the abortion issue, which the majority don't, there are great ones that do, but there are too many that don't.

I've had pastors say to me, Alex, Victoria, I can't bring someone like you into my church because I have pro-choice people in my church and we've got to keep telling them about Jesus week after week. And if you come in and scare them away and they don't come back, well, then how are we going to reach them? And I'm like, did you ever stop to think, Pastor, that you might have pro-choice people in

your church, people that are involved in adultery, people that are having premarital sex, people that are out there getting drunk every night because you're not addressing sin. The problem is you. Because the people sitting in your church is one out of three has had an abortion or they've participated in an abortion. When you're not talking about it, you're telling them your sins the one sin God won't forgive. How many women sitting in any given congregation do you estimate have had abortions? More than people realize.

One out of three, women. And women that have had abortions run to the church, they're looking for something like I did. They're saying yes. They're overextending themselves because they're doing whatever they think they need to do to feel better about themselves. So they're sitting there week after week after week. When I go speak at churches that do bring me in, they'll come to my book table and say, oh, my gosh, thank you. Thank you for coming and speaking, the men, the women, because we've never had a pro-life speaker before. We've never had someone actually share their abortion story.

I'm so proud of my pastor that he had you come to share with us. Thank you, thank you. How can I get help? And then I'll direct them to their local pregnancy centers because a lot of local pregnancy centers offer abortion recovery. So that they can or I'll tell them get in touch with me. We'll get you in one of my retreats. They need to hear that there is life after choosing the most horrific thing in their life. We all have sin, Alex.

People commit adultery every day. People steal. People lie. They cheat. They gossip. Which, believe it or not, gossips the sin. So for all you gossips, here's a word from God. Shut up.

You know, there's sin, right? But that's the one sin that men and women convince themselves. God could never forgive me for that. They need to know, yes, he can. He loves you, and he can take what the enemy meant for evil just like he did for me and turn it into good by helping others. Because my baby died, Alex, I'll never know until I get to heaven. how many children are alive today.

There were spared abortion because of those women who've reached out that heard my story and then didn't choose. For the men listening who have maybe had a partner who have had an abortion specifically, what do you want them to know as we close? I want them to know they matter. I want them to know there's help for them just as much as for women that God loves them. And no matter if they talked her into it, manipulated her into doing it, drove her there, paid for it, whatever it was. Maybe they didn't even know until later, whatever the circumstances was, or they even kept their mouth shut and they didn't really want her to do it. They felt they had

no choice but to keep their mouth shut. God loves you. You are a father. The moment that pregnancy test is positive, you're a mother and you're a father. Having an abortion does not negate that fact. So get the help that you need. Reach out to someone like me and I'll help you get it. So for those men or women who are like, I'm dying to go to one of these retreats, I need it. Please help me, Victoria. Where do they go to find out information on going to one of these? If you would want to attend one of my reassemble retreats, go to reassemblelife.com. Reach out to me there.

Email me, Victoria at reassemblelife.com. And then we can see if you can get into one of my retreats or I can help wherever area of the country you're in, see what's happening in your area. there are a lot of abortion recovery going on, but people don't know about it. To this day, they still don't know about it. Alex, I was in Cody Wyoming speaking at an event, not even a couple years ago, if that. And this precious woman walked up to me afterwards, and she was in her 60s. And she said, can I talk to you a minute? We walked to the side. And it was this big banquet, 400 people.

And she said, you know, my friend invited me at the last minute because her husband couldn't come. And she said, it's been over 35 years for me since I had an abortion. And she said, I didn't even know what you were going to be talking about. I didn't know I was allowed to grieve. Thank you for giving me permission to grieve. All these years when I've wanted to cry, I've buried it and said, you don't have a right to cry because you chose. I said, I'm so sorry for your loss. She said losses.

It was twin girls. And I was never able to have children again. Tell me about this help I can get. I never knew this existed. There's help for people like me. That was just less than two years ago. There are so many people who are hurting, and I'm convinced a lot of people that are pro-choice are post-abortive or they know someone close to them who's had an abortion.

So if they become pro-life or if they think, allow themselves to think it in any other way, they're condemning themselves or condemning someone they love. And that's why I'm convinced abortion recovery is the backdoor approach to ending abortion. because when people are healed, they want to help somebody else. They may not be on a platform like me. Because people that come through retreat say, I don't want to do what you do. I don't want to tell everybody. I don't want to speak.

I'm like, you don't have to. But your neighbor might come to you now. A coworker might come to you now. A relative or a friend. And now you won't have that tape over your mouth to stay silent because of shame. Now you'll be able to say, I know how you feel. I felt the same way. But let me tell you what I found out.

There are other options. than what you're about to do. So that's why I love what I do, and I'm blessed to get to do it because I'm watching people being transformed by the love of God, by His Word, and by the truth that there is redemption and hope

even after abortion. That line that you said, you have permission to grieve, even if you're post-abortive, you have permission to grieve. That is the single most powerful sentence, I think, on this podcast, might even be the title of this episode.

because I love that. I love that because I think so many people are trapped in the chains of guilt and think that it's evil of them. How dare I allow myself to grieve this abortion because I chose to go through with it? You're absolutely right. And it's true. We need to give them permission to grieve. Listen, I still grieve. I'll grieve for the rest of my life.

I wish I was a paralegal at one point. I wish that was my job, but it isn't. I chose so I'm thankful that I can take that. and use it for good. And that my child did not die in vain. You know, I want to be able to help as many people as I can. But you're so right, Alex. We've got to let people know.

Cry. And right now they might be watching and they're in tears. Cry, let it out. You have every right to grieve your loss because it was a loss, whether you had seven abortions, 10 abortions or one, grieve. Grieve the loss of your children. They deserve to be grieved. We need to give dignity back.

to these children that the world does not give dignity to. These were real, live, human beings. They mattered. And we need to let them know. We need to let ourselves know that we loved them, even for that short time. Sometimes we just, some of us loved them too late. Tell us, again, your two books and where people can find them. It is two, right?

Yep. Okay. They lied to us is my first book. It has stories of women's. My story is in much detail in there and other women who chose abortion. and then they lied to us too, plural T-O-O, is my second book that just came out. It's Stories from Men. My publisher was just bought by Amazon, so they're on Amazon.

If you don't want to shop Amazon, reach out to me through my website and we'll make it happen. Victoria Robinson, your freaking G. You're freaking G. I love you. I love knowing that the Holy Spirit was so powerful in this episode. and men and women who listen to this are going to be touched. I have a feeling that so many people are going to be healed after listening to this episode and then going and seeking forgiveness from Jesus, which is there for you.

And if you liked this episode, you got to go back and listen to Season 1, Episode 12 with Melissa Odin. They so remind me of each other. She is an abortion survivor. So she was actually supposed to be aborted herself and a nurse intervened and saved her life. And she just has this wild story of not only, surviving the abortion, but also then, like, being reunited with her birth mother later as this, like, magical aborted baby that the birth mother didn't know survived.

It's like a life type movie. That is a fan favorite episode. That was season one, episode 12. And then you also will really like season one, episode 20 with Abby Johnson, where she details the creepy things that went on behind the scenes is one of the top employees at Planned parenthood for years. Now, here is important news. Very important.

Next week is Thanksgiving. Shocker, I know. So what I have decided to do is give you the spillover earlier next week on Tuesday so that you have it to listen to as you travel or you're sitting with family looking for something to watch after Thanksgiving dinner. This guest that I'm having next week has been on Joe Rogan twice. So you already know it's going to be a wild story. And I wanted this episode specifically to come out next week because it is such a perfectly riveting and also controversial and like a really good. conversation starting way that everyone in your family, no matter where they fall politically, will be entertained. They're going to want to dissect and discuss it.

And that's the really important thing. If you do have a family that has multiple members that disagree on politics, please listen to this episode. Like this episode is specifically for you. And it's going to be so freaking good. For anyone who has been outcasted by family in recent years due to politics or different worldviews or religion or whatever, maybe you strike. to respect family members who don't vote or think like you do.

This episode's going to encourage you to appreciate the people around you. Oh, I'm so excited. That's going to be such a good one. I really hope you'll actually watch it on the Poplittics YouTube channel after Thanksgiving dinner. That episode, again, is going to air next Tuesday at 9 p.m. Pacific, midnight east on an Apple Podcast on Spotify and subscribe to watch it. Poplittics on YouTube. It's going to be a podcast episode just in time for your holiday travel.

You are welcome. Gobble, Gobble. I'm Alex Clark, and this is the spillover. Love you, mean it. Bye.