Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark - Raw Milk: Everything You Need To Know | Dairy Farmer Rick Anglin

Episode Date: September 17, 2024

Raw milk farmer, Rick Anglin, used to be in the conventional dairy industry before switching to raw milk. His farm, Fond du Lac Farms, is the exclusive raw dairy provider to Sprouts grocery stores across the state of Arizona. Does hot coffee pasteurize raw milk? What is the listeria risk from consuming raw dairy? Should you only drink raw milk from grass-fed cows? Farmer Rick joins Alex to put raw milk conspiracies out to pasture. Thank you to our sponsors!⁠Squeezed Juice⁠ | Use code “Alex” for 25% OFF ⁠⁠⁠⁠Garnuu⁠ | Use code “Alex” for 15% OFF ⁠⁠⁠⁠Yrefy⁠ | Call [phone] or visit ⁠⁠yrefy.com⁠Rick AnglinInstagram | ⁠@fonddulacfarms⁠Facebook | ⁠@FondDuLacFarms⁠X | ⁠@FondduLacFarms⁠Website |⁠ fonddulacfarms.com⁠Alex Clark Instagram | ⁠@realalexclark⁠Instagram | ⁠@cultureapothecary⁠Facebook | ⁠@realalexclark⁠X | ⁠@yoalexrapz⁠YouTube | ⁠@RealAlexClark⁠Spotify | ⁠Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark ⁠Apple Podcasts | ⁠Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark⁠New 'Culture Apothecary' Merch OUT NOW! Glass tumblers, weekly wellness planners, hats, crewnecks and more. Use code "Alex Clark" for 10% OFF at ⁠⁠⁠⁠tpusamerch.com⁠⁠⁠Got Raw Milk? Crop Top⁠Join the Cuteservatives Facebook group to connect with likeminded friends who love America and all things health and wellness! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join the CUTEservative Facebook Group!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Subscribe to ‘Culture Apothecary’ on ⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠. New episodes drop 6pm PST/ 9pm EST every Monday and Thursday.This show is made possible with generous donations from listeners who believe in our mission to heal a sick culture. You can support our show by leaving a tax deductible donation, or by subscribing to ⁠⁠⁠@RealAlexClark⁠⁠⁠ YouTube for FREE! ⁠⁠⁠donate.tpusa.com⁠⁠⁠#cultureapothecary #alexclark #rawmilk #diet #food

As a dairy farmer, how dangerous is raw milk? You have a better chance of getting sick eating the store-bought lettuce and the cut canalo or any fruits at a grocery store than you do drinking raw milk. We don't even think twice about eating a salad every day. Right. It's raw. Why raw milk? Why is it got to be the villain for everything? To say that all of it is safe, I can't make that statement.

I don't think all raw milk is created equal. I just don't. Whatever you put into the cow is what's going to come out of her. We shop on the edges. That's where the food is. Other than my mortgage, the most expensive thing in my home is food. What is the deal with raw milk? I'm wearing my Got Raw Milk crop top tea.

You can see it on the Real Alex Clark YouTube if you're subscribed there. I'll put a link in the description for you to get this. But everybody's talking about raw milk. How safe or risky is it? My guest today is Rick Anglin of Fondulac Dairy Farm in Casa Grande, Arizona. He's a fourth generation dairy farmer who exclusively used. uses brown Swiss cattle, which are known to be A2 producers. He describes himself as an organic hybrid farm, which he'll explain in more detail.

And super fun fact, he supplies all the sprouts in Arizona with raw milk and raw kefir. So if you live in Arizona or you're visiting Arizona, you can get fond de lock raw milk at any sprouts grocery store, which is what I do. We discuss why we now pasteurized milk in America if nutrients are really lost in the process of pasteurization, if putting raw milk in hot, Coffee counts as pasteurizing and even what raw milk should ideally taste like. If this is your first time listening to Culture Apothecary, you should know that the show is made possible with tax deductible donations from viewers like you. The link is in the description to financially support us and our mission to heal us at culture. If you're not able to do that at this time, you can leave a five-star review for free

and that really helps us become discoverable in the podcast apps. You will love this heartfelt conversation on raw milk with Rick Anglin from Fonda Lock Dairy on culture apothecary. The real reason I brought you here is how the heck do you explain what the name of your farm means? Well, that's a great question. Fondalac is actually a town in Wisconsin. And so with my girls, my three girls, we used to show cattle. And so when my girls were, Quincy in particular was the oldest, she was 10, and we flew back to Fondalac, Wisconsin.

Because that's typically where Brown-Swisser found is in the Midwest. And so we flew back and we bought two heifers, Fendi and Zandra, and brought them back to Arizona. And that's kind of how it started. So when we were kicking around, like, what do we call this? It's like kind of the love for Brown-Swiss from my family started in Fondalak. And so I'm like, well, why don't we call it Fondelac? Because that's kind of where our journey started with Brown-Swiss. Okay, I love it.

And Brown-Swiss is the type of cow that you use. And what is unique about this type of cow? Well, the biggest thing that I think is unique is Brown-Swiss is, a cow of many extremities. Like you'll find them in really cold weather. You'll find them in tropical climates. They're all over the U.S. They're a very hearty breed. They're known to have really great feet and legs and they live forever. They're just a really tough, rugged cow. So for our really hot climate here in Arizona, it's a great fit for me because they just seem to take the heat so well. How long have you been a dairy farmer? I've been in the dairy business. I was in the commercial

dairy business for 17 years. And Fondalak just celebrated its 10-year anniversary in July of this year. So we've been doing this now for 10 years. Boy, that's interesting. So you were in commercial farming, doing the regular milk that you get at the grocery store. And now you've transitioned into being a raw milk dairy farmer. Some would say you're an extremist. Right. No. Exactly. Yeah, it really, like I said, the commercial deal for, for me, it was like, it's kind of how I grew up. It was what was a part of my family. I learned a lot there. I learned how to, you know, care for cattle. But just like, I guess if you will, like my ideal of what I wanted the dairy to look like, it was really hard to work within the confines of commercial daring. You have a kind of a given like set. Like this is,

this is what you have to work within. And I'm like, there's no freedom. It's like it's here. Can you give an example? It's really set by like, you know, our whole food system within this country is supported, you know, by the government. Like there's, there's protection barriers there. Well, that's great other than the fact that a lot of those barriers were the same, it's the same number that was when my grandfather was during. So, I mean, we're all, we would all be going broke. And so we're not just a nation that is taking care of our own people. We're taking care of the rest of the world, too, as far as food. Because when you get down to it, which is pretty amazing, are that only 2% of Americans farm here in the U.S. and are feeding 330 million people

plus the rest of the world. And so there was a big push towards get big or get. get out back in the 70s. And so it really like, you know, the small farm started to disappear. They just started to get bigger and bigger. So do you feel like we made a compromise technically? Are we feeding more people going to this model? Yes. But we've sacrificed health somewhere along the line.

It's like most businesses. They're looking for the cheapest inputs, right? So this is how much I'm going to be paid. I won't make any more than this. So I need to figure out and budget within these confines to get this done as cheaply as possible so I can feed my cows, take care of my employees, have a living. And so like, that's where I say, like, the control is where mine's more freedom. And so like what I'm doing is about, I'm feeding cattle the way that is important to me, first and foremost, but also like

listening to the consumer out there and saying, hey, listen, we really appreciate the fact that you feed your cows this way, that they're cared for this way. Well, it's very expensive to do that. So my inputs to feed the cows to produce the quality product that you want are very expensive. I'm more than willing to do that, but it comes at a cost, obviously. And so I feel we make a superior product. My motto has always been quality over quantity. I'm not all about it's I want to produce a consistent, excellent product every day. We go to, we're kind of like the Dunkin' Donuts, man. We go and every day, time to make the donuts. We get up and we, we master the mundane every day, but we do it with excellence. And so that's what I, what I, that's the culture I promote at our facility.

My guys all know that. The gals that work for me know that. It's just always about excellence every day. How many cows do you have? Currently, we're a little bit over 100 cows. Wow. And so 100 cows, and you are the raw milk supplier for sprouts and grocery stores all across the state of Arizona. Right. Everybody always wants to ask me like, Alex, where do you get your raw milk? Where are you going? And I'm like, well, I'm blessed to live in the state of Arizona. raw milk is legal here. So I get Rick's milk at the grocery. Every Friday, they deliver it. And so I am there always, after work, picking up my milk for the rest of the week. So how would you describe your farming practices? I would say my farming practices are very, they're conventional to the West. And when I

say that, like, you have to be open-minded in the approach because we all cannot farm the same way. out here, it's more of a Western-style daring. We tend to bring the feed to the cows. A lot of folks will talk about, you know, are your cows on pasture? Well, they really, I mean, we're in the desert. So the only way for them to be on pasture is for me to create a fictitious pasture for them to go out on with limited resources and water is already an issue here in Arizona. And I've seen it this last year and just that it's been cut back. So we keep our cows and corrals. But even at that, like, whatever, the, I was talking to one of my daughters the other day, like, let's say if they said, hey, we'd like to have 100 square foot per cow, like in a corral space. My cows have 300 square feet

per cow in a corral space. So there's lots of room to move around. But what you need to understand is that cattle, they're a herding animal. So wherever the rest of the herd is is where they're going to be. They could have five miles of property to roam, but you'll find them all in one little area. So it's like, we still have the adequate space for them, but that's kind of how we do things is that they're in a corral because this is a domesticated animal, like my cattle are looking to me to care for them. And so they know that I'm going to provide them their food, their water, their care. It's animal husbandry. And so that's how we do things. Whereas if you went to the Midwest, you know, and a guy's got the option to run his cows out on pasture during the summer, great.

But in the winter, because it's too cold, he's going to bring him indoors and they're going to be locked up all through the winter. And he's going to bring the feet into them. Why did we start pasteurizing milk in the first place? Well, honestly, I would say the start of pasteurization really probably started back in the industrial revolution. And so what you had is in those big cities, the cows were there too. And so we're all, you know, families of immigrants, right, to this country. And so it's like we didn't have the sanitation. People weren't washing their hands when they milked cows.

Cows were eating whatever was available. You're in a city. Probably a lot of like distilled brewers grains and stuff. like that. So you had kind of a sick host, if you will. You had sick people who didn't have cleanliness and then you didn't have cooling. So now let's throw it in a bottle, truck it in the back of a horse-drawn trailer and drop it off in front of your house and let it sit out there for who knows how long, right? And so people got sick, you know, and so that's where pasteurization really first came into play is, because really it's a new phenomenon. It's like in the last

hundred years that we've had this. But it became the status quo. And really what it is is that, yeah, it kills everything, but it kills all the good bacteria, too. And I think it's an interesting point to make that before pasteurization and before we industrialized our food system, you didn't have people saying, oh, I'm getting sick from drinking milk. Correct. Correct. Because this is how everybody drank milk. We get stuck in a rut, right? And it's like we all have this awakening where we just kind of start thinking for ourselves a little bit and start asking some questions. And that's something that's always got me in trouble is asking questions.

Well, why do we do this? I mean, for myself personally, like, I'm a dairyman who grew up that couldn't drink pasteurized milk as a kid. Like, it would literally put me on the ground. And I had stomach aches. I spent time out at Mayo's Clinic. They thought I had Crohn's disease. Wow.

And so, like, with that, but like as a kid, I would go down to the barn and I'd get milk out of the tank, like the big bulk tank where all the milk was, cold. I could drink that milk, no problem. And so I'm like, well, what's going on here? You know, like, why can I drink this milk? And that probably wasn't even the best raw milk anyways. Well, that's what everybody says. Everybody's like, oh, I'm lactose intolerant, but I can drink raw milk.

Why? Well, the big thing about that is, is when you pasteurize, you actually destroy lactase. And so when people say that they're lactose intolerant, what you've got going on there is you have a bottle of milk that is heavy lactose. So it's just sitting there. And that enzyme that was there before, lactase, which neutralizes lactose. that's what allows people to drink raw milk. So I will always hear people,

it's really amazing to get like an email from someone that says, hey, I haven't drank, I haven't had any milk in 30 years. And I drank some of your milk the other day. And I just wanted to thank you because, I mean, I haven't been able to drink milk in 30 years. And I'm like, that's pretty cool when you hear something like that. Because, I mean, milk's great.

I mean, to be able to have it and all the different things we use it in. And so it really is an option for somebody that, you know, if I hear their lactose intolerant, I'm like, You could potentially drink the milk. You know what I mean? But you got to give it a try. And, you know, some people are afraid to do that because they know what it feels like when they have dairy products. And so I understand.

But a lot of people that I run into are like, man, I'm willing to take the risk because I miss drinking milk. And then find out that they can drink it. And then you get the thank you. So pretty cool. Why is the government so worried about raw milk becoming legalized? It's a lot about control. And I say that just because we have a system. in place right now. When you start at the farm and you move through all the different positions

till you get to finish product, there's a lot of things, there's a lot of middlemen sitting in there that stand to lose if they're not important anymore, whether it's the processors that actually make it into products and stuff like that. In my flow, like we milk our cows, we process our own milk, we deliver our milk, we set it on the shelves and sprouts. So we have no middleman in our in our process. Where most farms have milk, they sell it to a process, so the processor sells it to the grocery store, the grocery store sells it to you. Well, how many people have their hands in the cookie jar to get to that point? And that makes it tough. It's about controlling markets, you know, that would be the big thing, I think.

If raw milk isn't quite your jam, that's okay. Everybody's like, oh, my gosh, Alex, well, I don't like milk, and I don't want to, I'm not telling everybody you have to drink raw milk. just saying there's amazing benefits if you do. If you don't, go. Fine! You can drink juice. Some of us are juice people. And my trusted juice brand is squeezed juice from a small family farm in California. Non-GMO never from concentrate, no water or sugar added, 100% Mandarin, pomegranate juice, and antioxidant lemonade. Don't worry. They're shipped cold so you can take a cool, refreshing drink as soon as you open the box. If you're hosting a debate watch party this election season,

serve squeezed juice in a moktail or to the kids. Those antioxidant lemonade are killer in a moktail, especially the pink lemonade with pomegranate and cucumber. See what I mean? Squeeze juice is the cleanest juice out there. No more high fructose corn syrup, artificial food dye juices. We just want the real thing. Go to shop.com and use code Alex for 25% off.

Very generous offer. That's shop. That's shop. Squeezejuice.com with code Alex for 25% off, cold, completely clean, fresh juice straight to your door. When you were a member of these like typical dairy associations when you were in commercial farming. Sure. What were the types of things that they would say about farmers who were distributing raw milk? For most part, they were crazy people, you know, if they did that.

My family has been a part of this dairy industry, especially here in Arizona for a long time. So I have roots here. I know a lot of farmers here. I have a lot of respect for the farmers here. I know how hard we work every day. But for me, the system just wasn't working anymore. And it wasn't a natural pivot like, yeah, I'm just getting out of this because I'm going to go and do this now.

It was like, that was not the game plan. It just threw some time and talking with my wife and about like, what's next? What are we going to do? And just like trying to, like, what do you do with a guy who's giftedness is caring for cattle? Like that's what I do. You know, like that's what I know how to do. How can I do something I'm passionate about and that I love? Yeah.

And then bringing in the side of that my wife loves nutrition, it's like she was actually the one that said, well, I think we should do raw milk. And I was like, I don't know. You know, I really didn't know at the beginning. But I know more about milk today than I ever did before. And I think just understanding the product, understanding that it is possible, it is possible. to put up a beautiful, clean product, but it takes a lot of work. And it is not for the faint of heart.

I mean, you better be all in if you're going to do that. And because the thing of it is, is if somebody does something wrong, if one person does something wrong, it puts a negative light on the entire industry. Do you think some of these dairy people that are just so up in arms about raw milk and talking about how dangerous it is and stuff,

are they just scared that if people have their eyes open to raw milk, that maybe they'll start drawing conclusions to some of the farming practices that they've been using and they don't want people to start making that connection? There's always that possibility. But again, I think kind of coming back to like, I don't believe that all raw milk has created equal. A friend of mine, he always has made the quote where he says, there's raw milk for pasteurization and there's raw milk for consumption. That's a pretty pretty fair. Self-explanatory. And that's what we do.

We do something where we make raw milk for consumption. consumption. Really, when you talk about the industry as a whole, anytime what do we all see, we get the clickbait. We see somebody who's mishandling an animal. And so to paint the entire industry and say, like, well, they all do it the same way. Well, I don't know that that's fair. You know, like there's always a bad apple in every industry that we're talking about. So I think we've got to be gracious about that. I'm not trying to do what that industry is doing, and they're not trying to do I'm just trying to stay in my lane and just do what I do well. Yeah.

I don't really care what you're doing over there. I care about what I'm doing and providing a product to my customer base here in Arizona that supports us and our family and our vision and how we produce our products and the quality of care that we take every day. Critics of raw milk say pasturation is no more unnatural than cooking or refrigerating or freezing food. Sure. We do all of those things, they'll say, and, you know, that is to make food. safer to consume. How dangerous as a raw milk dairy farmer is raw milk? I say any time you go into a grocery store, you're taking a risk. And unfortunately, raw milk has been painted into a corner that it's the worst.

I mean, if you have a better chance of getting sick eating the sore-bought lettuce and the cut cantaloupe or any fruits at a grocery store than you do drinking raw milk. We don't even think twice about eating a salad every day. Right. It's raw, you know? So why raw milk? You know, why is it got to be the villain for everything? Or deli meat.

Bore's head just recalled how many bajillion pounds of deli meat in the last, like, week that we're filming this? Because of listeria and different bacteria problems. Sure. Yeah. And like I said, I mean, if you're doing everything well, and even to take it one step further, like my facility, because we partner with sprouts, we've had to go through. major food safety audits. My oldest, all of my girls actually have all helped. We spent the better part of a year working on a food safety audit for Sprouts. My employee handbook is 165 pages long if you come to work for me. And so we're really serious about food safety. I thought we were doing an excellent job before, but what I learned through food safety even now is like what I thought was excellent. I mean, we're even doing an even better job. And so again, like it's really important. that you vet your farmer and know the type of product that you're getting. And that because it's not all created equal.

And it's nothing that there's anything special about me, but it's just we really take what we do very seriously. What do you think about the media saying? Anyone promoting raw milk is a political extremist? There's a lot of extremism out there right now. No, I don't buy it. I mean, like I said, it's kind of back to that same statement. Why is raw milk have to be the villain in this?

I don't really look at it as political extremism. We all make choices every day. I would always, I mean, kind of a funny thing that people would ask me. It's like, you know, I don't know what your life is outside of on the day to day. People, for example, if I had someone to ask me and say, oh, man, your milk's really expensive. I'm like, okay. But they're standing there and they've got the Vente Starbucks Latte in their hands. I'm like, hey, what are you drinking?

and oh, you know, this Fente latte. I'm like, well, what that set you back? You know, $6.50. I'm like, okay. So you're spending $35 a gallon for coffee? And it's like, oh, my gosh, I never thought about it that way. It's like we all make choices. And so for me, the freedom, it's not extremism.

It's a choice. I mean, isn't that the great thing about this country? We all get to have an opinion. We all get to choose what we want to do. Love it. You know what I mean? So don't paint us into our corner. Does pasteurizing milk change its nutritional value?

Like why do some anti-raw milk people say that's a myth? It's pasteurization doesn't take any of the nutrients away. Well, I mean, I would say that's simply not true because it does change it. It absolutely destroyed. Like lactase, for example, is completely destroyed during pasteurization. And that's what you need to neutralize lactose. And especially if you're lactose intolerant, how then could you consume it? Because your product is heavy lactose.

A lot of the proteins are denatured when you pasteurize. it is a very different product because like my product is literally alive. Like when you drink the milk, it's a probiotic. Right. If you put it under a microscope, you're going to see it moving. It's good bacteria though. It's good bacteria. And that's the thing is that Americans today, we are not getting any good bacteria.

We're keeping our kids inside. They're not allowed to play outside of the mud because that's too dangerous and who knows what's in that. And then they're not drinking any like real drink. They're not eating real food. So they have this, you know, all they're eating is this. this like cardboard chicken nuggets and tater tot every day. There's nothing going on in their gut and that's why we're getting sick easier. We need some healthy bacteria, right? Yeah, you do. And that's the thing is that, you know, a healthy diet. And it's a process. Like anyone who jumps on

their health or fitness journey, it's going to take time. You know, like if you've destroyed your gut, it's not going to happen overnight. A lot of times people ask me about, you know, I want to start drinking your products. I want to try that. I'm like, okay, my advice is always start small, you know, like maybe, you know, cup, shot glass, just kind of start introducing it into your system, get it in there, start making those changes. It's going to take time to change your gut health. And I'm literally saying it could take years depending on how much damage that you've done to your gut. Even when we go to the grocery store, where do we shop?

We shop on the edges, right? I mean, that's where the food is. Most of the food isn't found in the middle, you know, It's always found on the edges. And so that's where my family lands, you know. And so like I said, it's a choice, but that's what we choose. Other than my mortgage, the most expensive thing in my home is food. We spend a lot of money on quality food.

And that's a choice that we make. And it's a good choice, I think. And it's evident in our lifestyles and how we feel. I was asking you about your farming practices. Would you say that you guys are an organic farm? and you had an interesting answer to me that I think is important. Because a lot of times when we're talking about you need to be finding real food and you can't trust a lot of these brands at the grocery store,

people are like, well, I don't understand. Where am I supposed to go? Where am I supposed to shop? Where do I get food? And I'm like, you're a local farmer. Right. But you had an interesting point about look at the climate that we're in. Sure.

This is going to determine different things that you feed your cows, etc. Sure. And there's also a lot of weird hoops that you have to go through to be considered organic. Correct. That sometimes are a little unnecessary. So sometimes your farming practices could be wonderful, but you just don't have technically the organic label. So could you walk us through?

Right. Yeah. So for me, I would say like we're kind of an organic hybrid. Because we live in the desert, I don't think it's sustainable for us to try to pasture animals here. First up, because there's not enough water, and you have to have rights to that water and able to be able to even grow a pasture.

which really isn't sustainable long term. So most of the farming that's done here is, you know, I have a farmer that I've dealt with for a long time. He grows my alfalfa and it's all non-GMO and he doesn't spray with crop dusters. I mean, I know the farmer, he knows me. He knows that it's important for me that this feed get raised a certain way and that it's clean. And so non-GMO, that's what we do there. I don't feed any corn or soy.

I only feed barley. Barley's probably one of the oldest. grains, it's biblical. You can read about it in there. So barley is a heritage grain. It's never been made into a GMO. Doesn't need to be. It's a winter crop. It grows in the winter, so we're not sitting out there spraying, weeds and all the rest of this. And it's natural. A lot of people like to get hung up on this grass fed, which that's fine. But grain is a part of a cow's life. If she was out on pasture and we got to the end of a growing season and things are starting to die, what happens is that grass forms in the form of a seed at the top.

Now, all your nutritional value moved up into that seed. So you watch a cow going around nipping off those seeds because that's where all the energy is. And so for us, back to like with this organic, it's like, that's not possible here to do all those things. So I'm not going to do that because we bring the feed to them. The bigger one for me is just in treatment of cattle. Like in the last 10 years, I've had two cows that I've had to treat. That doesn't maybe not sound like a big deal to you, but that's, that's, that's pretty incredible because that's, that's not a lot of sickness, you know. The farm people are like, oh, that's good. That's real good. Yeah. So for me, I'm like, and not, even at that, it was like they had a foot problem. And so, but in an, in an organic facility, I would not have the ability to treat that animal. And so therefore, she would probably either be cold out of the herd or she would be moved to if they, if it was a farm that actually had an organic and or conventional side, they'd move her over there. And she's no.

longer in organic production. So that's not fair to the cow. It's not fair to me. And so I'm like, there's just, there's just too much stuff where there's no flexibility in it. I think organic was started and with the right mindset. But like anything else, it's been, you try to capitalize on it. Well, the government gets a hold of it. Yes. And then it's about money and it's about all this. And I'm like, man, I don't need somebody else telling me how to do something. Like, I know how to care for cows, you know? Do you know for a fact as a farmer that some of these brands that are like pasture raised organic, whatever, like big name brands that are in every. grocery store across the nation are absolutely doing horrible farming practices.

Like we're all getting duped. There's always going to be a Walmart, right? Right. I mean, it's just part of our society. And it's the same with milk. You know what I mean? And the reality of it is is that there are fewer small farms. And who's left is they've been merging together for the last almost 70 years now.

Even back to when my grandfather, Gary, just smaller, you know, farms are out, get a little bigger, get a little bigger. And that's just the way it is in society. So it's like, you know, you can have a 10,000 cow organic facility. I mean, tell me, I guess it's possible. But like, again, it's like, you know, I think in the statutes right now for organic, like a cow has to be on pasture for 120 days to be classified as organic. Okay, fair enough. But I mean, like, how do you rotate 10,000 cows out on pasture?

Are you a bathroom snooper when you go to someone else's house? Someone I know got invited to Taylor Swift's house for a secret sessions event back in the day. I know. We could talk about this all day. And someone there stole her soap. So from that moment on, all the secret sessions had individual free soaps. Taylor also baked homemade cookies for them herself, but I digress. If you snooped in my bathroom, you'd find my stockpile of period products from Garnu. What is Garnu? 100% organic cotton period products. Regular pads, panty liners, overnight pads, light tampon, super tampons, period cups. You name it. They got it. it. And they are loud and proud about being a period company for girls only. Now, imagine explaining

that sentence to the pioneers. Try Garnu with a one-time only purchase or a subscription to be set up to come right to your door just in time for Strawberry Week this month. Go to garnu.com with code Alex for 15% off. That's G-A-R-N-U-U.com with code Alex for 15% off. What is the truth about Listeria in raw milk? The truth about Listeria. Well, I would say how it got kind of piggybacked onto raw milk. would probably be because of casso fresco so casso fresco day cheese typically made with raw milk which is very popular in Latin culture and so what happens is a lot of times people come here from other countries and oh I always had Casal fresco well in the US a lot of times they refer to it as bathtub cheese because some of

those maybe they worked at a dairy farm you know they snuck out five gallons of of milk from the farmer poured it in the bathtub at home, made casel fresco, gave it to their friends and whatever else, and then you're sick, you know, and so that's where Listeria really tied in, probably, and especially when you hear about it with raw milk, it's typically because of casal fresco. And so, you know, now they make casso fresco that's pasteurized. It's literally day cheese because you can make it in a day. So that's not really what I think as far as consumption, like as far as fluid milk, Listeria is really not, it's not on my radar. But I think it really is more tied into the cheese production of Caselfresco.

If you went to the CDC, that's probably what you'd see. It's about day cheese. What is the difference between A1, A2, and raw milk? It's a casing. So you have A1, A2 casing. And a lot of that comes back to, I would say, where we ended up with more A1 casing is probably because of breeding. So if you have, and especially in the, like larger, you know, I guess larger demographic of breeds, say Holstein's, the black and whites,

and our jerseys. There's just a lot more of them out there in the U.S. And so if you have a stud, which is the, he's the one that they're collecting the semen from, and he's an A1 producer. And then you've got, you know, a thousand dairies that breed to that particular stud. And they all have, you know, who knows how many cows they have. You could end up with 100, 200,000 daughters out of a particular bull. who's an A1 carrier, which then they pass that on to their progeny, and it keeps going.

So you really have to be selective as far as, as far as A1, A2, Brown-Swiss, which I milk are historical A2 producers. Even the bulls that I use with an arbreeding program, they're A2 carriers. And a lot of that is infused with European genetics because the difference between the U.S. and Europe is, I think the U.S., we have a better, at times, better looking animal. as far as like visual, Europe has always been known for their health traits. And so A2 is very common in Europe, longevity, just the health of the animal. So I like to infuse that European blood into my cows.

That's what I'm currently doing right now. When I talk about like A1, A2, to me, the bigger thing is like, I know you can consume raw milk. If you still can't consume raw milk, let's talk about casing. And that might be A1A2. But the jury's out for me as far as A2. I know I can test a cow and she can say that she's A2. The gentleman who originally started the A2 milk company, when it was the big craze when it first started,

I thought it was kind of ironic that all the data was his data. He was the one that created all the data that backed the A2 milk company at the beginnings. Stop. Yeah. So for me, I was always a little bit like, okay, I know that Guernsey's produced 90% A2 milk. So the other 10% is, A1, you know, so like, what is that, when we pull this test and say that cows A2, is she 90% A2 and 10% of her milk is A1? What is it? Is it 100%? Like, what's the metric? You know?

But is there like a level like A1 is regular, it's good, and then you have A2 better and then raw is best? Like, do you see it that way or is it like that's not how it works? Honestly, for me, I look at it, is it raw? It's probably your best. Okay. If you don't want to do the raw, I think a lot of people pivoted to drinking A2 milk, you know, like that was, well, I'm not going to do, you know, raw, so I'm going to drink A2 milk. Because that's another thing. Some people that have milk issues end up being able to drink A2, right? I've heard that, you know, maybe.

I would find that interesting just because, like I said, even that A2 milk, if it's been pasteurized, it's going to be heavy to lactose. There's nothing in there to reduce that. I don't know if it's like taking it. So if you're lactose intolerant, raw milk is really, you should really try it and see that might be your best bed. It could work for you. Yeah. I mean, it is definitely possible. Do you cook with raw milk?

Our family personally does. It's because it's the only milk in the house. Now, I believe that that's not necessary, especially if you're going to be baking. Because that pasteurizes it, right? Correct. Okay. If you put raw milk in hot coffee, is that pasteurizing it? It's a vat pasteurization for sure.

Oh! Yeah. Okay, thank God I'm putting raw milk in an iced chai because then I'm getting the benefits. But if you're putting raw milk in hot coffee, it's basically, you might as well just have regular milk. It's definitely going to change a consistency. Oh, my best friend, Nicole, is going to be devastated him. What does raw milk taste like? In my opinion, it tastes better than what you can get in the store.

And there's a couple of reasons for that. Like, I think the breed is important. And I know I'm harping on my brown swistle out here today. but I think they make the best tasting milk. And so for me, it's the perfect balance of fat and protein. And what the customer needs to understand, too, is when you go to the grocery store, and if you buy whole milk at a grocery store, any whole milk that's in there, it's 3.25% butterfat. That's what the government says you get.

So that's what constitutes. So when you see whole milk, 2%, 1%, so whole milk is 3.25% butterfat, 2% is 2% butterfat, you know, 1% on down. So with my cows, we don't standardize. And when I use the term standardized, that means that I don't take anything out of the milk. And so on average, like Brown-Swiss produced about 4.5% butterfat. So I'm giving you all of that extra butterfat. That's a part of your bottle. And so you're getting everything from me.

I'm not taking anything from you. You're getting it just how it was. It's not homogenized. So I haven't crushed the fat globule. So it's like, and it just blends together nicely. And so for me, I would say it's kind of just this sweet taste. And how you feed them varies. So like if you drink milk from cows that are out on pasture and eating something,

it's going to taste a little bit more earthy. You know, it just does. What you feed the cows definitely changes what it's going to taste like. It is a real thing that the raw milk will taste totally different depending on who the farmer is, in my opinion. I tried a different local raw. raw milk. It was so gross to me. It tasted almost like they were adding vanilla flavoring in it. I don't know how to explain it. Yes. It was not natural. It was just weird. I'm like, I almost wanted to call them, be like, what are you feeding them just for my own sanity? I just didn't

understand why this milk tasted so sugary. I didn't like it. Then I went and tried yours. I picked it up at sprouts and I was like, oh my gosh, it's so good. And people ask me, what does raw milk taste like? I'm like, it just tastes like milk. Sure. But, better. The milk you are used to having to me is just better, maybe a tad creamier, but it's just the same. But I could taste a difference. It was not the same that other milk. And see, then I was just like, that's not the farm for me. Now, I have coworkers who love that farm raw milk. And that's the milk that they like. And I'm like, it's not for me. But you have to try different raw milks from your different local farmers and see which taste you like. And that's it. And it doesn't need to be like, you know,

Well, we hate that farm, love this farm, whatever. If that farm works for you, cool. You know what I mean? Like, if you like my milk, great. But you don't need to bad mouth me and say, my milk's not good or whatever. It's just like, it's not a good fit for me. Yeah, not a good fit. And one person asked me, they were like, what does it mean if your raw milk tastes kind of oily?

If you have a lot more fat. So let's just say, for example, if my, on average, let's say my brown Swiss produced 4.5% butterfat. other breeds can produce up to 6%. So that's kind of like an oil slick. That's what I would say. So that kind of oily taste is because there's so much fat in that milk that it almost has like this kind of, you know how when butter gets stuck in your mouth? Like it's kind of that slick taste. And you guys also sell kefir.

We do. What is that? So that is a cultured milk product. And we add cultures to the milk and we set it and it sits for 48 hours at an end. ambient temperature. And it has the consistency probably of like a Greek yogurt when we first start to churn it. And we mix it all up and then we run it through our fillers. And it's a live probiotic. It has 13 different probiotic bacteria in it. Most of the, if you were to buy a yogurt in the store, it's going to maybe have one or two strains of like, you know, beneficial

bacteria. Ours has 13. It's a superfood. And it is something that you definitely want to start. in slowly with. Small doses. Because if you've not had it, it will work in your body. So you just pour like a little shot glass. That's what I always tell people when you're starting. If you want to start drinking kefir, you should start small. My wife uses it in smoothies. She makes mashed potatoes with it. She makes salad dressing with it. Like there's a lot of places you can sub sub it in and sub out. You know, like if something calls for mayonnaise, we'll show you to kefir. You know, I just, you can use it anywhere. What kinds of questions should you ask a dairy farmer before buying raw milk from them?

What are your milking practices? You know, how do you milk? What are your bottling practices? How long? And this is really, really, really, really important. How long does it take your milk to get down to below 40 degrees? Because cold is your friend with raw milk. It really is.

A cow's natural body temperature is 1.1.5. Like that's, that's her temperature. So when that milk comes out of that cow, it's over 100 degrees. So I have something in my barn that's called a plate cooler. So when the milk enters the plate cooler, it goes through a series of plates. And by the time, and this is instantaneous, and it comes out the other side, it's 40 degrees. So my milk is cold immediately. And then it goes into a bulk tank until we package that milk and ship it to sprouts.

So, and then from there, it gets cooled down anymore. But it's instantaneous. So, like, anything, when you start, if it takes, like say someone's milking in their backyard and they we put it in the mason jars and we put it in our fridge and okay that's cool maybe even if they used an ice bath we got it down to like 70 well now we sit it in the fridge and it takes another three hours it's going to grow like it just is because it's it's alive and so it's going to continue to grow and and so it's cold is your friend and so I would want to know how that's being handled feed is obviously to me is probably one of the biggest things what do you

feed your cows. I want to know what you're feeding them. That's important to me because whatever you put into the cow is what's going to come out of her. If you came to my facility right now and you watched us milking cows, I would describe it as prepping for surgery. That's what it looks like in my barn. It's not a race. We are all about excellence in there. And so it is very boring and it's very tedious, but we do every step of the process with excellence. And it takes a long time to milk our cows because we're all about the quality. I don't think all raw milk is created equal. I just don't. And so to say that all of it is safe, I can't make that statement. No, I wouldn't either. People always ask me that, like, well, how do you know it's safe? I'm like,

it's as safe as the farmer in their practices. These outlets that, like, paint me up to be, like, so crazy and, like, this is so dangerous. You're putting your audience in danger by telling them to drink raw milk. I'm like, but I am also telling them know your farmer. Sure. How are they farming? I would never say, I mean, I would trust getting raw milk from a farmer that's farming with decent farming practices. I would trust that milk more than I would pasteurized just because it's pasteurized

from one of these big companies at a factory farm. I mean, that's just me. Sure. I wanted to ask you about how, like, you could have two different farms raw milk. And one of them, the expiration date will be a lot shorter than the other. Why? Well, I mean, again, I think it comes down to the type of quality that you're putting up. So for like my farm, we ship out samples to a third-party lab. A lot of some other farms, they say, well, we do on farm testing, which is great. There's nothing wrong with that. I think that's just another tool. But I think you always run the risk of being a little partial to yourself. And so it's kind of like, you know what, I'm going to have third party go ahead and take a look at this and very, verify the data. And even to take it one step further, like my facility, in particular here in Arizona, I am a state certified inspected facility. So I have the state of Arizona at my place

every month pulling bulk tank samples, pulling finished product samples. And it doesn't matter what I say. It's whatever the state lab says. That's a lot. And so there's a lot of pressure. And so it's like, you know, we are always looking at, I'm not going to wait for the state to tell me if I have a problem or anything like that. So we send out our samples when we look at it. But to answer your question about as far as how long it lasts, like you should easily be able to get two weeks out of a bottle. Okay.

And if you're not, there's something's probably not quite right. When I first started at the beginning, and I'm not encouraging this in any way, but we kept a bottle in our fridge, and we kept sending out samples every week on that same bottle, and that bottle was still good a month and a half later. And so the quality of the product that you put up, the lower your bacteria count numbers,

the longer it's going to last. Okay, it's just you and me here. How bad is your student loan debt situation right now? Do you feel like there's no way out? Are you discovering that your whole family is affected by this? If you've got private student loan debt and are behind or even in default, you've got to call my friends at YRify.

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Are you going to move to glass? You know, honestly, we looked at glass in the beginnings. A couple things about glass. Glass is very heavy. There really is no new technology as far as how to clean glass. There's one large dairy here in Arizona that bottles in glass. The piece of equipment that they have was probably made in the 50s. Whoa. And it's a glass bottle washer. They're very expensive.

What I've noticed in glass in the past, and I've known some other raw milk dairies across the country who bottle in glass and they've had problems, like to know that that bottle is actually clean. And that's what scares me is just that I want to know. I can spend all the time in the world to get this beautiful product put up and know that everything's right and then wonder or not whether my glass is clean, you know. So that kind of spooks me a little bit. And so. But don't, don't the people just buy it and take it home? I mean, what's the clean part, I guess? The clean part is that, you know, you need to have this, this super clean vessel. And so like if I'm, you know, using reusable glass, you know, how do I know that his glass bottle washer is, I don't know their

production, you know, how they do things at their farm is some, I mean, I've seen glass bottles at a grocery store. Not everybody is considerate and washes them out and brings them back to the grocery store. I've seen bottles in a store that got milk sitting in them that looks like it's been baked in there for two weeks. Yeah. You know, am I hoping you got that clean when you put more milk back in it? I mean, that's just me. So we use a BAP free plastic. There are things that we're looking at as far as pivoting into that I think it's going to be a better thing for the future. We have a lot of changes happening at our farm right now. Really?

Yeah. And so, you know, stay tuned. Pink milk cows maybe or something. No, but there's a lot of great things. You know, like even for, to be here today, to be talking to you, it's like, you know, my son-in-law, Dylan started working with me. I don't know, but it's been six months now. So the reason that I was able to get here early today is because he's at the farm. he's out there feeding cows this morning.

Shout out Dylan. Yeah. And so he's doing, you know, he's coming alongside and taking some stuff off of my plate because when I can do my best work is when I have a second to think. Sure. Yeah. I'm in the same way. Yeah.

So we've got a lot of things that are in store. We talked about how different nutrients are zapped during pasteurization. What are the nutrients in raw milk? If you look at it from from a nutritional standpoint, you know, You've got your different like proteins and calcium. You know, there's just all this host of all these different makeup of milk. It is a nutritionally perfect food. But what happens, like you said, when you pasteurize, it's just you're denaturing stuff

and or you're killing it in the process. And so that's why I always come back to it. It's just like live product and dead product, you know. And I really think the live product is probably better for me. Do you think that families that buy conventional milk at the store are basically just wasting their money? They're just buying expensive water. It depends. I think that comes back to where it's like a choice, right?

I'm sure you have people that tell you, man, I don't have any money. Okay. You know, I don't judge you on how you choose to spend your money. It's like, you know, you can say you don't have anything, but I see you've got this in your hand. We're willing to sacrifice for the food in our house, you know, over other things or activities or whatever else. It's more important to me. And I can't judge you if you want to buy, you know, storebought milk, fair enough. And some people, maybe that's just what it is.

That's what they can afford. I feel like we all have to prioritize what's important to us. Speak on it, Rick. Yeah. Well, for me, it's just about, like, food is just, is so important. We were talking about this earlier when I came, when I first got here, it's just like, you know, I have a, I have a family of girls. I have three daughters.

And so I'm kind of big. I'm into girls. you know, and I'm all about, about women. And so doing this and with, you know, with my oldest, I got my first grandson coming in November. It's just like, I want young women the next generation of young women when their families to be educated and to try to make the best decisions that they can for their family in regards to food. Because we're all doing our best and we're out here. We're on your podcast.

We're looking for information. We're trying to, you know, you're out there trying to get it all to us and help us understand and see, hey, I found this or whatever else. It's like, all right, we're all moving in the same direction. And there's going to be grace through that. And we're going to pivot. And there's things that, oh, that doesn't work for me. This works for me. But, yeah, I really believe that food is critical.

And we're going to continue to do what we're doing, Lord willing. Are you scared that we could have another almost food supply chain collapse if we have another person? pandemic. It was really, really interesting during COVID. And not to make light of everybody's situation was different. But for us, we never stopped working. Ed Joel Salatin on? He said the exact same thing. It was, it was insane. We would take product to the grocery store and we would get a call typically two hours later that they were sold out of product. Could you please bring more? And we had people buying our milk that had never bought it before because it was the only milk that was left on the shelf at the time, probably because it was the most expensive.

They were scared. Well, and they were scared, like, what the heck is the raw milk? People are like, hey, I just bought this bottle and I, can you tell me what it is? What's the deal? We want to create a beautiful product that's done with the, that is created with perfection to the best of my manmade abilities. And so we're really working hard and we're trying to bring more product into the market. But it's really been interesting how, yeah, it's just COVID really kind of opened a lot of people's eyes. Did you see an explosion in the last couple years of people wanting raw milk? Like, do you get phone calls like crazy?

Yeah, it really has been pretty much. An explosion is a good. That's great. Yeah, because it's been pretty crazy. How can somebody find raw milk if it's not legal in their state? Well, the biggest thing I'd say is you can go to Real Milk Finder. And Real Milk Finder will show you wherever your state is. county, you can click on it, it'll take you there and show you, you know, who's doing it.

And every state's different. The rules are different. Might be called pet food. Correct. It could be pet food. It could be a herd share, you know, where you buy a percentage of that animal and that farmer takes care of it for you and you get so much milk. That, to me, has been the best way to find milk in your state. If raw milk isn't legal in somebody's state and they really want it to be, who do they call? What do they say to their, you know, local people in office? I really think if you're going to get any major movement, you're going to have to go to the federal level.

And it's going to be like talking to Senator Rand or something like that. You know, I mean, you're going to need to get some big guns behind you to really try to push that forward. But obviously, it's a state-by-state issue. I think the more that you, that you, if you band together and people keep going and pushing, because I know it's been legalized in a few more states here, recently, I think Iowa recently is... Louisiana. Yeah, Louisiana. I think New Mexico, it was legal, but the shelf life was super short.

And I think they've gotten that change now where they can have like a normal shelf life. Would sprouts allow you to sell raw milk ice cream, you think, one day? It's tricky because like with raw milk ice cream, all ice cream is supposed to be pasteurized. And so it's really, I don't know that that's going to change. See, because one of the things like you talk about from even from, it's not up, up to sprouts. It's really up to the PMO. So that's a pasteurized milk ordinance. And so those are rules that are set up for dairy nationally. And so for me, it's like even me doing raw milk, I still fall under this PMO. And so I'm held to all the standards. Like I am producing a product

under the standards of the pasteurized milk ordinance, except I don't pasteurize. So my levels have to be all below what it would be per pasteurized milk. And I accomplished that. If you had one remedy to heal a sick culture and that could be physically, emotionally or even spiritually, what would it be? Yeah. Well, we're going biblical now. Sure. Yeah. It's the great healer.

Yeah, that's having a personal relationship with Jesus. That's what that is. Sorry. He is the great healer. because we live in a fallen world. In this side of heaven, we're not going to have all the answers of why certain things happen and why we have to do with them. But like when I look at this, like, this is practice life. And I'm just passing through.

And so I want to be a good steward of what he's entrusted me with. I told producer Katie, there's nothing special about me. I'm just a man who milked's cows. And I'm thankful that the Lord saw fit. That's what he was going to allow me to do. So beautiful. It's the best answer we've had so far this season. Oh, so good.

Okay, so what is your website, Instagram? Do you know all that stuff? Yeah, so you can find us online at www. Fondulakfarms.com. We also, too, are on Instagram at Fondelak Farms. We'll have photos up there where you can take a look at what we're doing on our farm. and yeah, so those are the main two avenues right now. And it's F-O-N-D-U-L-A-C.

F-O-N-D-U, two D's. Oh, you're right. Yeah. F-O-N-D-U-L-A-C. Okay, yes. Yep, F-R-M-S. And all the links are in the show notes. You can find farm website, Instagram, all of that stuff.

And also, if you're traveling to Arizona, I get asked, you know, I'm just in town for a week on vacation or whatever. I'm in Scottsdale. Where can I get raw milk? you can go to sprouts, but they are out. You got to start giving more. I mean, I know you're like, stop putting pressure on. We're doing what we can. But Rick, if you are not there on the day it is delivered or the morning after, it is gone.

I know. We are definitely, that is something we are working very hard at right now. And so, yeah, please be patient with us. There's a lot in store, Lord willing, coming forward. Butter coming soon? It's been talked about. So, but like I said, there's a lot on the horizon. Just be patient with us.

Awesome. Thank you so much, Rick, for coming on Culture Apothecary. I appreciate it. As you heard, Rick brought his entire family to watch his film. His wife, his grown daughters, even their husbands came. They prayed over the episode as a family and our crew before we filmed. They were just the sweetest family ever. Come to find out one of his daughters works at Habit Salon in Gilbert, Arizona, which is where I go.

Absolutely crazy small world. If there were any raw milk questions that didn't get answered, ask them in the cute servitude's Facebook group, which is where all the women who are fans of my show gather to make friends, get advice, and discuss the show. The link is in the description. If you love this episode, you will love my interview with Rancher A.J. Richards from last December on the fragility of the food chain in America. New episodes of Culture Apothecary drop every Monday and Thursday night at 9 p.m. Eastern, 6 p.m. Pacific with a mission to heal a sick culture. Please leave a five-star review if you enjoyed this episode with Rick. I'm Alex Clark, and this is Culture Apothecary.

Thank you very.