Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark - Remembering Charlie Kirk with Michael Knowles and Ben Shapiro

Episode Date: September 22, 2025

Daily Wire Hosts Michael Knowles and Ben Shapiro recall their first impressions of Charlie Kirk, speculation Charlie was considering Catholicism, if Ben and Charlie ever had a falling out, what Charlie’s assassination means for the country and conservative movement going forward, and MORE!Guest 1:Ben ShapiroGuest 2:Michael KnowlesFOLLOW ALEX:Instagram |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ @realalexclark⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ @cultureapothecary⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ @realalexclark⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠X |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ @yoalexrapz⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ @RealAlexClark⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcast |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join the Cuteservatives Facebook group to connect with likeminded friends who love America and all things health and wellness!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Join the CUTEservative Facebook Group!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Subscribe to ‘Culture Apothecary’ on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. New episodes drop 6pm PST/ 9pm EST every Monday and Thursday.

My two guests today really need no introduction. This week, I'm releasing three special episodes featuring guests who knew and loved Charlie in tribute to him. Today, it's The Daily Wires, Ben Shapiro and Michael Knowles. As per usual, no matter who I'm interviewing, it is my style to ask the tough questions, sometimes uncomfy ones based on what I think people would want to ask themselves if they were the ones hosting a podcast. Ben and Michael share their first impressions meeting Charlie, what his assassination means for our country going forward how they're coping with the aftermath and we always end of course with asking what their remedy is to heal a sick culture you can watch this episode on the real alex clark youtube channel or culture apothecary on spotify which now features video and right now as we try to get back into

the rhythm of releasing episodes after this tragedy it would mean a lot for you to leave a five-star review on spotify or apple and just say why you love the show find the show on instagram at culture apothecary or find me at real alex clark you can get show merch or charlie kirk legacy merch to help support the organization, T-P-U-S-A merch.com. You'll get 10% off with code Alex Clark. Please welcome, Ben Shapiro and Michael Knowles to culture apothecary.

Tell us about the first time that you had even heard of Charlie Kirk or met him. Yeah, so the first time I met Charlie, I've told this story before, is he was 18, I was 28, and I was working at the David Horowitz Freedom Center, and we were doing some sort of Horowitz Center freedom event, and I see this gangly 18-year-old kid with a very ill-fitting jacket,

kind of bop up, and he goes, Mr. Shapiro, I'm starting this organization called Turning Point. We're looking for donors, and I really want to talk to you about what it is that we're doing. And so we sit together, and he tells me about all this

extremely energetic, obviously very bright, really, really gritty. I mean, one of the things we say at Daily Wire in terms of our hiring is you can't teach grit. Charlie, it was just grit and energy all day long. And I had this conversation. My co-founder of the Daily Wire,

Jeremy Boring, was there as well. And as Charlie walked away, I turned to Jeremy. I said, that kid's going to be the head of the RNC. Like, you knew it the first time you met Charlie. And one of the things that I've said over and over about Charlie since this horrific act of evil is that Charlie is one of the rare people who got better at legitimately everything.

So the kind of take when you see somebody who's very good at things is that they must have had some insane level of talent. Like obviously Charlie was innately incredibly smart, very bright and very fluid. But Charlie was not charismatic as a speaker. Charlie was not a great debater. and he was a great organizer from the very get-go, terrific fundraiser, all the things that made TPSA

sort of behind the scenes, an unbelievably large and powerful organization, that stuff he was great at the beginning. The charismatic Charlie Kirk that the world knows through billions of views, the one who was making great arguments on college campuses and going at it at Oxford Union and the Charlie Kirk who was giving speeches

in front of thousands of people at SAS or Amfest, that Charlie Kirk, he willed himself to become incredibly good at those things, like the best on earth at many of those things. And that is amazing. It's also, you know, it contributes to the horrifying tragedy of what happened. Because, of course, if his trajectory was that, then where would he have been in 10 years? I mean, that's the part that's astonishing.

You know, when I first heard that Charlie had been shot, obviously, everybody went into a state of shock, everybody. But the thing that stunned me the most is when the headlines started to come out and it would say Charlie Kirk, 31. It's like, he was 31 years old. And of course, I knew that because I'm 10 years older and he is. I'm 41. He's 30. But because Charlie had accomplished so unbelievably much by the time he was 31, it's insane to think that he was only 31 years old and he had done all of this.

And when a normal 31-year-old person dies, obviously it's a tragedy, but you don't see the outpouring of grief from literally tens of millions of people all over the globe, ranging from, you know, countries like the United States where you have tens of millions of people to Argentina, to London, to Italy, to Israel, to Canada. to South Korea, to New Zealand. I mean, like, that's an amazing testament to who Charlie was. It was a privilege to watch him go from an 18-year-old go-getter young man to a true man in every sense of the word, a husband, a father, and an iconic figure.

When I first was hired from Turning Point, so I've been here for six years. It was July of 2019. I believe you spoke at SAS or one of our gala dinners right when I very first got hired. And then there was a little bit of a gap. there's a little bit of a gap between Turning Point Ben Shapiro maybe some rumors of like just a little bit of competition

between you and Charlie a little competitive nature or tension can you talk candidly about that gap? Yeah, I mean I never felt that in terms of my personal relationship with Charlie. Yeah. I mean, certainly it's not like we ran a campus organization. I mean, we run a media outlet.

And so the idea that there was some sort of competition for whom would have been weird. I mean, the reason there was a gap is because there was COVID, right? I mean, that was 2019. And then there was a gap in 2020 and 2020 and then last year, right, I spoke at Amfest in December. So no beef?

No. I mean, what would the beef have been? I mean, that's the thing I keep asking people. So what is the supposed beef that I had with Charlie between, say, 2019 and 2023? What exactly would that have been? I'm unaware of it. I mean, we're in the game in politics. That means that we have discussions all the time behind the scenes about how to pragmatically handle

all the things that are happening behind the scenes. Are those conversations that Charlie and I had? Of course. Are those conversations that ever got fraught and angry? No, not one bit. You may be one of, if not the only other, I mean, most threatened conservative commentator ever. Have you had to have these preparation-type conversations with your own wife?

A thousand times. Yes. My wife, unfortunately, is quite used to this, and so are my kids. I have four kids. they 11, 9, 5, and 2. And they do not know what it's like to live without 24-7 security. They've been living with it their entire life, essentially. And so, you know, honestly, like for them, it's kind of normal,

and they play lightsabers with the security guards and everything. But obviously, in the aftermath of what happened, security went into even higher gear, and, you know, don't go out to dinner, don't go into public spaces, all that kind of stuff. And I'm sure I'm not the only person who's felt that. But, you know, I knew that Charlie was taking, risk, you know, by doing the right thing. And that's the nature of the, that's the nature of what Charlie wanted to do. He knew he couldn't do what he needed to do unless he put himself at a certain amount of physical risk. And he was incredibly brave for, for doing all of that. One of the first things

I said, I mean, I'm just like angry and sobbing and in tears. And I said to Colvette, I said, why was he allowed to be outside after Trump's assassination attempt? Why wasn't he wearing a bulletproof vest? And he said, we tried. He didn't want to do it. Like there were talks of, hey, when we do these campus tours, we probably need to be indoors, all that. And he said no.

I mean, that's a decision that he wanted to make because he felt like he wanted to be with the crowd, right? He wanted to do that. And that is a decision. I mean, obviously, I used to do a lot of campus events. the campus events that I traditionally do are indoors, and they do require more security. And there have been situations like back in 2017, I believe,

when I spoke at Berkeley, that they had to have something 500 police officers. And I was wearing a bulletproof vest at the behest of my security. And I remember saying my security, do I need a bulletproof vest? Like, why? I remember actively saying my security. This is ridiculous. Nobody's going to shoot me for saying political things.

And I think that, you know, to be in this business and to do what Charlie did, I think there's a baseline assumption. I think this is what got shattered for the country. There was a baseline assumption in this country. You do not get shot to death for having political debate with the people you disagree with. You don't do that. And I know I operated along those lines. I know Charlie operated along those lines because he was in the same business.

And that's what I think is so shocking and horrifying about this, not just obviously most of all, most of all for his family. But for the entire country is that we live in a new world where, yes, you very well could be shot and murdered for your political beliefs and for debating those in an open space. You recently said that you're going to get back out there, you're going to go on some college tours. Are you scared? No. I mean, again, I've always operated under the assumption that everything is going to be fine because it would be hard to operate in the world without that. You couldn't exit. Well, the reason that I said that is because there had been a rumor that was promulgated immediately after Charlie's shooting that I had canceled a college store, which is not true.

There was no college tour actually planned. And so I said, like, that's ridiculous. Everybody. Everybody needs to go out and pick up Charlie's. bloodstained microphone. You know, the internet, of course, immediately decided that's not what I had said, but if you actually go and watch it, I say we. I use the plural pronoun, we, because we all have to do that. No one is capable of filling Charlie's shoes. No one. I'm not capable of it. No one's capable of it. It's silly to even argue about it. Everybody needs to do their bit. Charlie was a giant. He was iconic in the

movement. It's funny for me to say this about someone 10 years younger tonight, but Charlie was. He was an icon of the movement and it's not possible and no one should even try to replace Charlie Kirk or do what Charlie was doing. It's not possible. We all have to go out and do those things. Are you taking over Turning Point USA? That is the biggest load of bullshit I've ever heard in my entire life. Truly. As soon as Charlie was shot, we reached out to Andrew and to the rest of the team here and we said, what do you need? Let us put everything at your disposal. Literally everything. Like we put our talents at the disposal of TPUSA. We put our support staff at the disposal of TPUSA,

the monetary resources behind TPUSA, because we believe in what Charlie believed in, and we believe in what TPUSA does and is going to continue to do on into the future. X is an incredibly stupid and bad place. And again, people need to touch some grass. Does this change anything for policy or procedure at the Daily Wire? In terms of security procedure,

we already had unbelievably high security precautions, because as you mentioned, you know, the number of death threats that I receive, or Matt Walsh receives, extremely, extremely high. And so we have very strong security procedures from multi-million of dollars every year on my security, on Matt's security, and all the rest. So, you know, I assume that it'll change some procedures. I can't imagine that it'll change too much because unfortunately we've been operating in this world for a while. When you see all of these vigils in different cities, different countries even,

that lean pretty radically left pouring out support for Charlie Kirk, what does that mean for the world. So I think that one of the big things that Charlie stood for and the thing that he was killed doing, which is what makes this so, again, I keep using the word horrifying, but I don't know another word for it. It really is just horrifying. But the reason for this is because Charlie was not siloed. The big mistake for the right here would be to silo itself and not have the kinds of conversations that Charlie was having when he was shot. Charlie specifically went out there and said something that those of us in the industry who have been doing this for a while said for a long time, If you disagree, go to the front of the line.

Right? Disagree front of the line. We need to have those conversations. We need to have those discussions. It's why millions of people became conservative because of Charlie. They weren't conservative before. They became conservative because Charlie was talking to them. And so, while the right naturally is saying, let's unify it, and I think that's true,

the reality is that the biggest thing that Charlie stood for was the possibility of taking people from one political viewpoint to another political viewpoint, from one perspective about God to a different perspective about God, from one perspective about their own life to a different perspective about their own life. And that's the thing that we need to get out there and do. And that's why I think you saw such a breadth and depth of grief. And again, I got texts from people and calls from people who radically disagree with me on politics,

people who would be considered traditionally liberal who were devastated at Charlie's death because of, and that's a testament to Charlie. It wasn't just the right that rose up in a cry of hurt and pain. pain and anguish and rage. It was a bunch of people who either used to disagree with Charlie or still on some matters disagree with Charlie.

And that's a testament to the breadth of his reach and his capacity for conversation. I have to ask you, what do you think about the rumors that Charlie was scared for his life, wondering if Israel was going to allegedly take him out before he died? I think there's a game that gets played online. Make a rigid allegation. I use that word advisedly.

And then when a bunch of people push back, you say, ah, you see, they've now taken the allegation seriously enough to deny it. There's not one iota of evidence that that's true. Not one. I was not at the meeting in the Hamptons with Bill Ackman. I have friends who were at the meeting with Bill Ackman, right? People like Josh Hammer, for example, or Seth Dillon. I know that they've been invited by Charlie, and they've spoken pretty publicly, I believe, about what it was that went down. Bill Ackman has spoken pretty publicly. First of all, the notion that Charlie would be, quote, quote, blackmailed into taking a position is just unbelievably silly.

The people who are spreading these rumors, they're agents of demoralization. They're trying to split the movement. They're trying to smear Charlie's legacy. I mean, Charlie was two things. He was a principled man who argued in public and he was also a coalition builder. Coalition building is a very difficult business. This is a business where you have to hold together a bunch of people who disagree on a bunch of different areas.

And there can be real, as I said before, you know, disagreements behind the scenes about how to handle those sort of pragmatic matters of building a coalition. But this notion somehow that Charlie, for example, was radically shifting on Israel and suddenly he was going to turn into a fan of Hamas and start preaching that. If you can show me evidence of that, I mean, I was interviewed on his show the day before he was shot. And we laughed together about some of the allegations that were being made along these lines. Nobody's going to believe me who doesn't want to believe me online because that's how it works

in the in the in the ex-base but you know better than i do you tell me you're in the inside here so my perspective being on the inside is um actually you said that perfectly about coalition building so he was very disturbed by this splitting on the right he was like this is a way bigger issue than we even realize like i mean the whole movement is basically splitting in half pro-israel anti-israel what am i going to do here like let's give everyone an opportunity to speak share their sides. I mean, that's why he hosted this debate on Israel at Sass this year, this summer. He was planning on having, you know, you speak at our events, Tucker speak at our events. So it was like, let's just give everybody a platform. Internally, I never personally heard

any like major worldview shifts on Israel like that. It was just very much, I'm hearing what everybody's saying, you know? You would know better than I would. But again, that seemed to be my perception from the outside. I mean, again, until the day he was shot, he was publicly a pro-Israel person in every debate that he ever personally held in terms of his personal beliefs. Which those were in the last couple months. I mean, it's very, very recent conversations. After that interview, just a few days before he died between you and Charlie on Israel, did he text you after the interview anything? No, the last text that I received from Charlie was inviting me to speak at, I mean, I can

pull it up. It was literally inviting me to speak at Amfest. Yeah. And I said, yes, and he said, great, we'll plan it. That was the last text that I received from Charlie, and that would have been the prior Thursday, maybe. And the last conversation I had with him was the conversation that we had on air. In three months from now, in five years from now, how will we make sure that people remember Charlie Kirk?

The amazing thing about Charlie is his ubiquity. So I think that, obviously, the clips of Charlie are never going to die. Those live out there. And I think that they need to continue to be trafficked on TikTok, where obviously had an enormous audience and on the various other social media platforms. I think that the biggest thing that can be done is continuing to support TPSA, which of course, as I said, Daily Wire, we're behind you guys. We believe that you're going to be able to navigate these waters. We believe in Charlie's mission and his legacy. And we believe

that, again, that fractious business of coalition building, which is a tough business, is one that you guys are going to navigate properly. It's exactly what Erica said. Building this movement is what Charlie would have wanted and doing it in his name, I think, is something that he would have wanted as well. And so we're going to contribute to that as much as we can as a company. I'll do that as much as I can personally. What Charlie stood for in the end, in the end, was a belief that people need to make America better and make themselves better.

And that meant for him, people need to go to church. Obviously, Charles is a very religious Christian. People need to believe in Christ. People need to go back to church. People need to engage with the country. People need to have open conversations. They need to believe in basic American values like family and faith and freedom.

And these are the things that Charlie stood for. If we stand for that and if we continue, to cite Charlie. I think that's a good thing. I think it's a very good thing to continue to promote Charlie and continue to promote his content. Again, we're lucky. We're left with this enormous mass of content that he bequeaths to us that we can still look at and gain inspiration from and pass on to our kids. I mean, I have kids who are, as I say, 11, 9, 5, and 2. I plan on showing them Charlie Kirkclips. I ask every guess this. If you could offer one remedy to heal a sick culture, it could be physically, emotionally, or spiritually. What would that remedy be?

Go to church. Go to church. I say, this is. a Jew, go to church. Why do you say that as a Jew? Because this is a Christian country. I want Jews to go to synagogue, but there ain't that money of us. So if you're, if you're a Christian, or if you grew up in a Christian household, even if you didn't, go to church. Church is good for you. I've said that my entire career. Charlie said it his entire career. It ain't going to stop now. Thank you, Ben, for coming on culture apothecary. Thanks so much. How are you feeling actually? I'm okay. You know, there are people that we should be more concerned about and praying for, you know, closer to Charlie.

I got the news and my first reaction was, oh, you know, I hope it wasn't too bad. I hope, you know, I hope his recovery won't be too bad. It actually didn't occur to me that he could have been killed. We're all familiar with the threats and the attempts over the years, especially from the radical left. And he was extraordinarily prominent public figure globally, globally, actually, but especially. especially in the United States. And so, you know, he understood those threats, but I thought, well, okay, I hope it wasn't too bad. And then when it, we realized what had happened, that was surreal.

And my wife talked about it. She saw the video. I saw the faraway video. I did not, thank God, see the close-up video, and I have not seen the close-up video. How did you? All right, how do I have social media and I didn't see the video? Yeah. I was very intentional about it. I'd heard that there was a video beforehand, and I made a very, very concerted effort not to say. it. I don't need to see it. I know what happened. She saw it and she said it was the strangest reaction because on the one hand she said he can't possibly be dead. And then on the other hand, having seen it, she said he can't possibly be alive, but he can't be dead. Charlie Kirk cannot be dead. It was her reaction. Obviously we've all been talking to each other and then talking about

it publicly for those of us who do that and it took me about three days you know what happens when a family member or friend dies and it's just weighing on you and then you go to sleep and you dream about whatever and when you wake up anyone who's suffered a loss will know this you wake up and there's this one second where you say huh and then one second later it hits you again so it was about the third day obviously there had been a lot of media, a lot of things happening behind the scenes, a lot of conversations happening. And I was sitting in my office at home, which is where I keep my Bibles and my religious items, and it's where I have, you know, real solitude. And it was about 11 o'clock, 1130. And I had, you know, I'd just been

sort of staring at my computer, my phone. I was in principle doing work. What was the work? I had to write my show, and my show was Talk about Charlie. So I didn't need more than 11 seconds, really, to write that. I was just staring, staring. And then I just let it hit me for about 90 seconds to three minutes, you know, really just the full force of it hitting. And men, we don't like to cry. And so you let the tears come to your eyes. And then you're especially right wing men, we just push it right back down. You're going to say, okay, this is not what we're supposed to do. But that's when it hit me, day three. Obviously a lot of prayers. It's very helpful for those of us on the right, especially, you know, Charlie, he was quite certain about what he believed and quite certain

about where he was going. So there's a consolation to that, but, but it's a soft consolation in the short term, you know, for, for Erica and for the whole family, obviously. Have you gotten to talk to Erica at all? Yeah, yeah. How was that? That was wonderful to be able to see her. And, you know, but she's, you know, she's going through just about the worst thing that's imaginable. So she's in the prayers of millions of people around the world and she's just done an unbelievable job, like a superhuman job of reacting to this with their children, the speech was superhuman that she was able to give. So she's a very strong and serious person.

But it doesn't matter how strong and serious you are. One simply has to grieve this kind of loss. there's an outpouring of support from many, many millions of people all around the world. But, you know, Jesus wept when his friend died, even right before he raised his friend from the dead. So, you know, one simply has to mourn. And I know there are people who mean very well in the public space who, you know, their first reaction is to be really happy, clappy about everything. And Charlie had an absolutely certain faith, hope, and charity, all three of the theological virtues.

But one still grieves. It's just a terribly, terribly sad thing. And there's no getting past it. You know, that's really the point, I guess. Do you remember the first time that you ever heard of Charlie Kirk or that you met him? Yeah, I don't know about the first time I heard of him. I had heard of him before I met him. I do vividly remember the first time I met him.

Tell us about it. I was in the Fox Green Room in L.A. This was about 150 years ago. And it was 4 o'clock in the morning because the morning show at L.A. time, you know, is awful. It's like 3 a.m. or whatever. So I'm sitting there. I lived in L.A.

And I'm sitting there, half of sleep. And Charlie walks in, probably off some flight, I don't know, hadn't slept in three days. Bouncing off the walls. Hey, Noles, hey, what's going on? This stuff. Boom, boom, boom.

And I'm there. You know, I should have been adjusted to the time. And I'm, you know, I was like, buddy, come on. I'm trying to sleep or whatever. And, but he was just full of boundless energy. And it gets to, gets to the bigger point on faith and everything, which is,

they say that all the way to heaven is heaven, all the way to heaven is heaven. And you really could see it with him. I never saw him down. I could see him a little stressed out. You know, he was managing like the equivalent of five people's careers at the very highest levels of politics and media.

But I never saw him down at all, which is not accidental. You know, that's not merely coincidental. There were definitely like you could, tell there were moments, I mean, just working here for the last six years. And one of like the, I mean, we have exploded in the last few years. I mean, when I first got hired in 2019, there was like, I don't know, 40 employees. Like, we could all fit in one building. Now we have tons of buildings. Like, it's just crazy. I don't even know everybody who works here at this point.

We've grown so much. But at that time, I mean, there were definitely those moments where it was like, he was very motivated to get things done, that type of, like, stressed. But yet never raised his voice at people, never cursed at people, never spoke poorly about others, never gossiped about others. And, you know, J.D. Vance, the vice president, kind of echoed that. He said that that's something that Erica had told him. Yeah. That he had never raised his voice or spoke, you know, shortly with her. And he said, well, that is just such motivation to me to be a better husband, because every husband falls short. He's like, I guess Charlie was an anomaly. Thanks, Charlie. But when you heard that, what did you think?

Well, it totally rings true. The guy really was who he said he was. And that isn't always the case in public. Sometimes it's the case in public life, but not always. And those of us, though, who had spent some time with the guy over a long period of time, could tell. No, he really was that guy, you know, literally a Boy Scout and his faith really was sincere. In some ways, I think it's one of the things that made him so successful. You know, we have this idea in politics that you have to be a Machiavellian animal in order to succeed.

And he really disproves that because with him, the truth is usually the simplest option. You don't have to keep track of all of your lies and all of these things. And he was a complete straight shooter with everyone, including not only his friends, not only his political allies, not only his colleagues, but with his enemies, too. you know and you can judge a man by his enemies and he had a he had the caliber of enemy that would tell you that he was not only on the right side of things but extraordinarily effective and it's important to know the difference between your friends and your enemies if for no other reason as a friend of mine points out if for no other reason then to know who to pray for you know christ tells us to pray for our enemies and love our enemies and so it's it's good to know that and and he he lived that out

every day he you could you could see the great charity that he had even and especially for his enemies. There was a little bit of news the day that we're recording this that just came out that the Biden administration had created a federal investigation that they called Arctic Frost. And whistleblowers allege that this was a corrupt FBI investigation that they were looking into over 90 names in Republican politics and media and that one of them was turning point USA. Of course. And so my question for you is, what does it say about our justice system when the federal government investigates political opponents under the guise of security? Well, that's nothing new. Barack Obama was also doing that in a transparently corrupt way. And he was exposed for having done that, though they never faced any consequences. Unfortunately, we saw the corruption of the DOJ from the earliest days of the Trump campaign all the way through. Trump's first administration.

This is the first I'm hearing of that, but it doesn't surprise me at all. In fact, I think most of us would have guessed that something like that would have existed. But I guess the coda to that whole story is, who controls the DOJ now? You know, who's in the White House now? And the answer is we are. That's how this information is coming out. And one of the major reasons that we do have that political power now is Charlie. This is not hyperbole.

This is not just a nice thing that one says after a person dies. This is a fact. There almost certainly is not a Trump's second term without Charlie Kirk. And so even the fact that these sorts of things are coming to light now days after Charlie was killed is quite directly attributable to him. And not only his clear vision, he had a very clear vision, it was very good, not only to his great charity and generosity for everyone, which was manifest, but to his effectiveness. they didn't target him, whether we're talking about the assassin or whether we're talking about Biden DOJ. They did not target him because he was ineffective, quite the opposite. So here's what's crazy you saying this. When we first, you know, were told officially that he had passed,

I went through three immediate things popped into my brain. First thing was, and I had tweeted it, was I am so thankful that Charlie loved and knew Jesus. Two, how in the world are we supposed to to go on without him. And three, thank God Trump is president. Because I knew that if this would have been a Kamala Harris administration and we didn't have cash Patel, we didn't have Dan Bongino, I was like, we would never have answers. It would have been downplayed. It would have been pushed out of the news cycle. There would be no justice or it would be, yeah, swept under the rug. And I was just like, thank you, Jesus. And it was crazy because I was like, and the reason we have that, the reason we have it is literally because of Charlie.

Yes. And, you know, it's, I was going to say little things. I guess these aren't really little things. A national address from the Oval Office by the President of the United States, that really focuses how people are thinking about it. The vice president filling in to host Charlie's podcast, to host his friend's podcast, that really focuses attention. And the outpouring of grief and love and attention, that actually preceded. the Oval Office Conference and the Oval Office address and the Vice President. That was all Charlie. That was people reacting to Charlie.

Someone who, in many cases, were actually friends with him. Charlie had many, many real friends, but also people who just felt that they were friends of his because he was on their phone all the time for years. I mean, some kids grew up listening to him. He really formed the way they thought about politics. Some people radically changed their views of politics and of man's relation to the cosmos. You know, their religious views because of Charlie. So they felt that this really personal connection to him. And they were grieving him because of that.

But the fact that then the political powers flew in and said, hey, hey, yes. Now let's focus. Let's bring some justice. Let's bring some reforms to punish the bad people, take the antisocial elements that are totally undermining our society out of polite society. and let's really do something here. Let's be effective, which is very much in keeping with Charlie's career. There are two descriptions that are being thrown around right now about Charlie Kirk. One is that he was a civil rights leader, and two, is that he was a martyr. Do you agree with any of those? Well, it depends on how you define these terms. The left has taken the term civil rights leader to mean any race hustler or sex. sexual deviant who wants to push some radical left-wing agenda.

But, of course, Charlie was a civil rights leader in the true sense of that term. He actually defended the right, not the wrong, and he was eminently civil. He was eminently civil. He was killed because he was civil. In terms of martyrdom, I think that one cannot escape the fact that he was killed not merely because of his political views, not merely because he liked low taxes or whatever. he was he was killed because of what he had to say about the nature of man and the relation of the body to the soul and about god about christ he he never let an opportunity go by when he did not preach the gospel to people and so i guess

theologians can quibble about the meaning of that term but but there is no question he was targeted because ultimately of his faith in religious convictions You said that in the aftermath of Charlie's death, it would be reckless to re-devote ourselves to protecting the marketplace of ideas. Redouble. Redouble. Yes. In the wake of Charlie's assassination, there are people who, in great sincerity, say that the most important thing to do right now is to redouble our devotion to the open marketplace of ideas. And this seems like a noble and courageous thing.

And it comes from a good place. But it is, in fact, reckless. because we had an open marketplace of ideas or something like it, and the left shot it up. And so we cherish the healthy exchange of ideas. No one did so more than Charlie. But nice words and soft soap will not accomplish that because marketplaces require rules. You can't have a marketplace of ideas or of anything else or of bananas if people are shooting up the marketplace,

if there are not basic rules, common media of exchange, trust in that sort of system. And so what is required for any kind of liberty, for that matter, is first order. In that sense,

do you agree then that that is why it's okay for people to be saying some need to be losing their jobs or being expelled from school if they are celebrating his death or saying that he deserved it? Yes, so for instance, the celebration of murder, that's a good example because it's so egregious.

One cannot tolerate the celebration of murder for engaging in political debate within the so-called marketplace of ideas. Because rather than that kind of thing, expanding the marketplace of ideas, it actually undermines the whole thing. If someone comes out and says, I encourage everyone to go murder that conservative if he dares to open. his mouth. You're not there by increasing speech. You're not there by increasing the exchange of ideas. You're completely shutting it down. This is why, and our founders and framers wrote about this extensively, but it's even in the Constitution and the First Amendment. This is why certain kinds of speech are not protected by the First Amendment. Things like direct threats, things like fighting words for that matter, things like fraud, things like obscenity. There are a number of categories of

sound that are not protected as speech. And the reason that is, is not to shrink the marketplace of ideas, but to protect it. You cannot have, in the words of G.K. Chesterton, a thought that stops thought. In the words of Chesterton, that's the only thought that ought to be stopped. You cannot simultaneously, for instance, be free and undisciplined. The founders and framers wrote extensively about this. You cannot simultaneously be free and totally ignorant. You have to know some basic things. This is why we don't let toddlers vote because they don't know anything and they're not disciplined. We know this intuitively. We can also arrive at this philosophically. And so what is needed now, it would seem to me, is the reassertion of order

and the kind of order that makes liberty possible, that makes the exchange of ideas possible. It's not that we arrive at these basic truths and moral goods as the asymptotic end goal of endless debate. Rather, these are the axioms without which debate is not possible. It's like in mathematics. Within mathematics, you don't start from nothing. You have to start from axioms. And so an example would be A equals A. I can't prove that.

A plus B equals B plus A. I can't prove that. However, I can't prove anything else without accepting that as a premise. And the same is true in speech and debate in public life. Asius Lewis talks about this. He calls this the Tao. others call it the natural law or the first principles of practical reason certain basic things that I can't exactly prove I can't exactly prove to you that it's wrong to commit murder but I can't

prove anything else about morality if I don't accept that that has always been the case in our society and so if if all of a sudden you have a society where people deny these basic axiomatic truths in a way that is in fact threatening and inciting violence, then you have to stop that. You have to punish that. You can't expect someone to send their children to a school at which the teacher is encouraging those children to be murdered. You cannot go to a hospital

when the nurses and the surgeons are openly calling for the murder of you and half the country along with you. I can't go to a restaurant. if the cooks and the servers are talking about how much they want to poison me. You cannot have those things. You cannot have a society in that way. And so none of this is particularly revolutionary. You know, these were always considered basic truths.

Isn't that just conservatism, common sense? Yes, it is actually. And so in a political reform like this, which is something that we're talking about now, it's always good to err on the side of caution. You know, so you say, look, it's not that we want to throw people out of the public square or ostracized people for saying things that we merely disagree with. We're talking about particularly egregious examples that undermine the whole public order. And so I think a good place to begin here is with those who would celebrate and encourage

the murder of innocent people simply for speaking. There's a lot of rumors online that Charlie was considering converting to Catholicism. You just did an interview, right, with Charlie, about Catholicism. We've had a million. You talked about faith. A million conversations. And that was recent. That was a recent conversation.

So is there any legitimacy to Charlie potentially converting to Catholicism as of recent? You know, it's funny because Charlie and I, we always jive each other about religion, you know, almost every conversation. Certainly publicly, we would get a kick out of doing that publicly. Privately conversations are a little bit different. And so, look, it's not really my place to reveal my own opinion of this or other conversations I've had with Charlie. and his publicly stated views speak for themselves, and if other people close to him, you know, want to reveal private conversations they're welcome to,

that's not my place to do it. All I will say on this fact is, I feel good about Charlie. I feel good about Charlie. His salvation, you mean? Yes. I feel good. We trust to God's extraordinary mercy, you know,

and we pray for the dead, and I do at least. But I feel good about Charlie. And the thing that I will certainly say that is obviously public is Charlie took religion very, very seriously and he took truth very seriously, and he would pursue it rigorously, and he could do it bombastically even,

you know, zealously. So, you know, that's what he cared about, obviously, most of all. So people sometimes, whenever anyone dies, especially someone who really cares about religion, they say, well, what would this? person have believed 10 or 20 years from, I don't know, you know, we don't have that time.

So all that we can do is pray for our friend in faith and, you know, feel whatever consolation we have from our public or private conversations. And so the thing that is giving me personally some consolation is I feel good about them. I ask every guest this that comes on the show. If you could offer one remedy to heal a sick culture, physically, emotionally, or spiritually, what would it be? The first thing you have to do is pray. ideally on your knees. That's the first thing you have to do personally. And that's physical, emotional, and spiritual, by the way,

because we're bodies, too. We're not just spirits floating in outer space. That's what modern ideologies, say, Gnostic ideologies. The transgender ideology, for example, says that our body has nothing to do with who we really are. But no, no, it's in our bodies. You know, our Lord is incarnate in the flesh in history, and he picks real apostles, and he leaves them real sacraments.

And then when he's crucified and resurrected, he broils them real fish. you know, that's how he appears to them and eats it, you know, in his body. So the body really matters. And that's the first thing, because it gives you the ability to look up. And Chesterton, again, this popped in when one of his detective stories, one of the conclusions is don't pray in high places. Because from high places, everyone looks like ants.

But when you're on your knees, you can look up to heaven. So that's the first thing you've got to do personally. You have to talk to God. You know, God's real. And so you should talk to them, shouldn't you? That's it. Before you call your mother even, you should talk to God. that's the first thing but we're political creatures as well we're a social animal and so

we need the public authority to recognize truths to recognize goods like the common good and to pursue them you know this is the this is statecraft 101 going all the way back to the first caveman community which is that good is to be done and evil is to be avoided and there is much that flows from that basic observation. But that is the first charge that we have. Good is to be done and evil is to be avoided. And one of the problems that we have in our modern culture is that we not only deny good,

we deny that we can even distinguish between good and bad. That's not only that we deny truth, we deny that we can distinguish between truth and falsehood. If that is the case, not only should we hang up self-government, we should hang up our humanity because we're surrendering our reason. We can know these things.

And so what is called for now is not only the clarity of vision that I think most of us have deep down, but it's the courage to say, no, no, no, I will promote the good and I will suppress evil. And I will promote truth and I will suppress falsehood. And I won't, we'll have a light touch and we'll have all of these wonderful subsidiarity and federalism and all these nice things that attend to politics. But let's not mince words here. You know, let's do what we know is right. those would be the two sides of it because we're all going to face our particular judgment as individuals. But we are going to live in this life and in the life to come as part of a community,

the political community here in this world, and also in this world and in the life of the world to come, as part of the mystical body of Christ. So we need to do things together too. Michael Knowles, thank you for coming on culture apothecary and honoring our friend Charlie with me. Thank you for having me. It's wonderful to be with you. Big thank you to Michael and Ben for being so open and vulnerable and sharing so much with us. In the next episode, I'll be talking to arguably one of the closest people in Charlie's life. All about his marriage, how he managed a work-life balance, why people on Charlie's team started taking down cameras immediately after he was shot, what will happen with the Charlie Kirk

show, a more in-depth look at Charlie's potential conversion to Catholicism and feelings on Israel, what Erica being CEO means for Turning Point USA, and more. Please leave a five-star review, tell others why they should be listening to Culture Apothecary. We're on a mission to Heal a Sikh culture twice a week, Mondays and Thursdays, 6 p.m. Pacific, 9 p.m. Eastern. Make sure you're subscribed. I'm Alex Clark, and this is Culture Apothecary.