Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark - "The Dark Side Of The Birthing Business." - Interview with Allie Beth Stuckey

Episode Date: March 18, 2022

If you’re a mom who’s felt pressured, coerced, or even violated to do something during your labor that you didn’t want to: YOU’RE NOT ALONE. On this brand new episode of ‘The Spillover’ podcast Allie Beth Stuckey goes into never before shared details about her birth stories and what went wrong.Plus Alex Clark and Allie discuss some concerning statistics about c-sections and inductions in the US, and what the media is hiding about the mortality rate of pregnant black women.Do you feel like you...

Have you ever wondered what it would be like to be in a room with only conservative women? What sort of conversations would there be? What topics might come up? And how would life change if you could make friends with like-minded women who enjoy talking about politics, but who can also talk about life relationships and culture? I'll tell you what. Life would change big time. And it does for thousands of women from across the country every year at Turning Point USA's Young Women's Leadership Summit.

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and I want you all there to see it. So go to tpUSA.com slash YWLS and use code Poplix to get 50% off your tickets today. Whether you're a student, a working gal, a mom, you're all welcomed. There are student and adult tickets available. That's TPSA.com slash YWLS with Code Poplitics for 50% off. How about that new intro, huh? I just didn't feel like the old branding. of the spillover quite match the vibe of this podcast, you know, because this show's a little bit

more grown up, the more mature vibe. We have more mature conversations. And I just, I really wanted it to have its own distinguishable difference from my daily pop culture show Poplittics. So here we are. We still have the pink. It's just a lighter shade. And since launching the spillover in September 2021, I knew that I wanted to have today's guest on. But she's got her own podcast four days a week, plus a book, and she does a lot of public speaking. And so I knew that cut conservatives probably already know her, feel like they do, and they adore her. And so her and I got to talking about a certain subject that we could discuss on my show that maybe she hasn't really ever talked about. And we started toying with the idea that, you know, not enough conservative women or liberal women or just any women in general are really speaking truthfully and honestly about the dark side.

of the birthing business, specifically shady OBGYNs, pressuring moms into doing things they don't want to do, and the corruption of hospitals when it comes to giving birth in general. During the pandemic, I know a lot of women, including myself, started to look at hospitals with a little bit of a stank eye, right? When they were told, you know, hey, you're a mom in labor, but you got to do this alone. Or, hey, I know you're giving birth, but you got to wear a mask. But besides that, there's been something else going on for a lot longer in hospitals. than just the past two years. And that's encouraging pregnant women to get C-sections if they don't want to or induce unnecessarily. Plus, hospitals are completely willing participants doing what should be

antithetical to their job and enabling the completely anti-science notion that not just women give birth. The very people who are supposed to help us sometimes seem and actually are maybe a little bit more sinister. My point for this episode is, as grateful, of course, as I am for today's doctors and medical professionals and nurses, and I know a lot of you are one of those things. And I'm very happy to not be living in the dark ages. But there is still a dark side to hospitals and giving birth. It's a business after all. So today, specifically, we'll be diving into the dark side of the birthing business.

Our guest is here today to share her experience as a mom, talk about the shocking rates of C-sections. her prediction on where hospitals will be in 10 years, given all the hysteria around gender, her own birth stories, and the shocking truth about black women dying during labor that I have never heard anyone talk about until now. This episode is a big one. Please welcome Allie Beth Stucky to the spillover. Allie, do you notice anything a little bit different about my set? Do you have a new, you have a new logo, right? Yes, everything's new.

You're the first episode of season two. I love it. We did a whole rebrand. I love it. It looks so good. Thank you. I'm very excited. We added a little bit more darkness.

I wanted it to look drastically different than Poplittics. I thought the old branding looked too much like Poplix before. So I'm excited. Yeah, that's the point. Yes. It looks good. I'm excited to have you for our first guest of Season 2. So welcome.

Me too. Thank you so much. for having me. I know that you've listened to a few episodes of the spillover. You were telling me that you listened halfway to the Francie Winslow episode. What did you think of that, at least so far? Yes. So for people who don't know, that's the heaven in the bedroom episode. And I didn't know what to expect going in. I thought it was interesting that this was like a traditional conservative theological Christian talking about sex in. I don't want to say graphic terms because people think that means like nasty. And obviously it wasn't nasty. But using.

correct terminology and like explicit in a sense that it was, you know, specific terms. I didn't know what to expect. And it did at first I just, I was nervous about it, honestly. But I liked it. Like there was something very peaceful and comforting about it because she explains like the theological foundations for not just having sex for procreation, but having sex for pleasure. And look, that's like an uncomfortable topic for a lot of people.

But that's her point. Like that's why she exists because Christian should be talking about it more. So I was super glad that you had that. If people haven't listened to that, especially if you are a Christian woman who is married, you should go listen to it because it was good and challenging. Absolutely. I thought so too. And I'm not even married yet.

I'm like, woo, I got a lot. I got to train up to be ready for this in one point in my life. Anyway, you know, speaking of conversations that a lot of conservatives don't tend to have. Really, I think any women tend to have, I think it's just now starting to kind of come on people's radars is the darker side of the birthing business, you know, talking about C-sections and early inductions. And I'm not a mom yet. So I'm very excited about what you have to say. And I said in the intro introducing you how, you know, I wanted to make sure it was a topic that you haven't really covered on your podcast relatable yet. And you are a mom. You've had two kids.

So I just wanted you to start with when you were pregnant with your first child. Did you you consider it all having a home birth or you always knew, no, I am going to do a hospital delivery just to start out with. Yeah, that's a great question. I didn't really know anything about birth or even pregnancy before I got pregnant. I mean, in general, I did. And obviously, being pro-life, you're kind of armed with the facts about gestation, a fetal development, and things like that.

But I didn't really know anything about the potential for pregnancy complications or birth complications. I was nervous to give birth. I am kind of just. like fearful in that way and I had never been in the hospital for any reason I haven't ever been majorly sick or had a major surgery or anything like that. And I know people will say, well, birth is not a medical procedure, but that is how I thought of it because everyone that I knew just had birth or gave birth with an epidural in a hospital. That's what my mom did. I think that's what my

grandmother did. That's what my sister's in law did. That's what my mother-in-law did. Everyone that I knew had birth that way. And so I never considered giving birth anywhere outside of a hospital. I didn't look into a home birth. I didn't look into a birth center. And I think a lot of it had to do with what I knew, like I said, but also some of it had to do with just fear of emergencies that, okay, the hospital is the safest place that I can possibly be. So that's why I picked it. And I honestly didn't think that much about it. When you first found out you were pregnant, that moment, did you immediately feel like a mom? like feel it or were you like that didn't come to later? Well, I immediately felt excited and a little bit shocked.

We had been trying for maybe four or so months. And I, another thing that I had heard from so many people from friends and from family members is that it's super easy to get pregnant and that everyone I knew really got pregnant kind of like on the first try or they were surprised by the fact they were pregnant. So I just thought as soon as we started having unprotected sex, that we would get pregnant because why not? We don't have anything wrong with us as far as I know. And we didn't.

But it just took us a few months. I didn't realize also how difficult it can be to get pregnant. Even if you don't have infertility issues, there are only a few days every month where you can even get pregnant. You know that most girls do not know that. They do not know that. And I'm not sure that I did either until it, you know, I probably downloaded an app and maybe the app told me.

But even those few months, I'm not saying that it's the same thing as people who have gone through long-term infertility. But even those few months of wanting to be pregnant and then having your period and being like, dang, like, that's hard. And so I was not expecting to have a positive pregnancy test. I actually, so I have hypothyroidism. It's very easily controlled by medicine I take.

But I have gone to the endocrinologist. And I had told them, I was like, they asked me when it was the last time I had my period. And I was like, well, I'm like a couple days late, but I'm about to have it. I have cramps and, you know, my boobs hurt. So I'm about, I'm about to have my period. And they're like, well, why don't we just take a pregnancy test? And I was like, no, let's just not. I don't want the disappointment again.

Let's just not taking pregnancy test. I'm like, oh, let's just go ahead and do it. And so they did like a blood pregnancy test. And I did, I wouldn't know the results for 48 hours. But when I went home, I was like, well, maybe I should just go ahead and get the negative test over with. So I'm not, you know, wasting my time for the next 48 hours, anxious about, you know, whether I just want to know right now that I'm not. And so I remember I was like changing clothes to go

work out and I took it. And then after three minutes, it was a digital pregnancy test. I looked and it said pregnant and I just could not believe it. And so I remember feeling feelings of just like stunned and happy and excited and shocked and oh my gosh, it's almost like getting on a roller coaster. And when it starts going, you know that you can't get off. It's just a crazy feeling. And so whether or not I felt like a mom, probably so. But every stage you feel more and more like that when you see the baby on the ultrasound, when you hear the heartbeat, when you feel the baby kicking, when you know that the baby can recognize your voice. And then, of course, there's like the big moment when the baby is born and put on your chest. All of those, I feel like in phases make you feel more and more like a mom.

And how old are your two kids right now? almost three three in July the oldest and the youngest will be one at the end of April. And have you shared three and almost one? Oh, wow. So have you shared their births, your birth stories with either of them yet? Maybe briefly. The oldest I did, I did a while ago, probably not in super detail. But the second, the youngest I haven't, I don't think.

Okay, well, let's start with, I mean, however you want to start in the story, but just your your birthing experience and what may have shocked you or concerned you during that with either one or both of your children. Yes. So the reason you and I decided to talk about this is because I had two unwanted and unexpected C-sections. And through this process, I've done a lot of research about why I am not even close to the only person that has had an unwanted and really unnecessary C-section. As it turns out, a lot of women

have also dealt with this. So we'll get into that. But just to kind of set it up for people, my birth stories are why we are talking about this particular subject that's close to my heart and it's something that I've experienced. So like I said, with my first pregnancy, I just didn't think about, I didn't really even think about what OB I wanted. It was the OB that my sister-in-law had. he had great reviews. He was super, he was super nice. And so I didn't really have any complaints. But I started kind of getting a little bit worried. But like I said, I didn't have a whole lot of education because I just thought, well, I don't have any problems. It's fine. I had like a completely boring in a good way pregnancy. The baby was developing great. I was totally fine. I didn't have

high blood pressure or anything. So I thought everything was fine. But I remember seeing a little sign on his desk that said, induce at 39 weeks. And I, I remember thinking, well, that's weird because I thought that I read somewhere that the average gestational age for a first time mom for the baby is like 41 weeks. So I wonder why he is saying that he wants to induce a 39 weeks. So I thought that was weird. But then as I got closer to the date, he was asking me, do I want to induce? Do I want to do it? And I was like, I don't think so. I don't really like medical intervention. And I knew that the contractions could hurt more. They use something in an induction called potocin, and it is a synthetic version of the natural hormone

of oxytocin, and it's supposed to induce contractions and just get labor going. And I just didn't think I wanted to do that. But they also offer your OB will offer typically cervical checks at 37 or 38 weeks. 38 weeks is technically full term, but you can go really as long as 42 weeks. And so I started giving these cervical checks. And basically they stick their finger up you and they see if you're dilated at all. And I decided to do it. Again, I didn't know any different.

I thought, yeah, sure, it's fine. I want to see if I'm progressing it all. You didn't know that there was a choice because women, pregnant women actually have a choice to do those cervical checks, correct? Yes, they have, they have a choice. There's really no medical reason to do it. It's really just for you. Like if you want to know. Now, maybe if you're a high risk.

pregnancy or if there's something else going on. I'm sure maybe there are reasons why your OB needs to know if you're dilated or effaced at all. But for me, there really wasn't. I just kind of wanted to know and I thought that that's something that you did. And so I was like not progressing at all, not dilated or effaced for people who don't know, you can look it up talking about your cervix, whether it's thinned out that's a face or dilated opened up. It has to be dilated to 10 centimeters for the baby's head to come out just for everyone

he doesn't know. And so they start checking to see if you're dilated all. I wasn't come 40 weeks. And that is typically when people start to really kind of when doctors really start to push you towards induction because that's technically your due date, even though due dates are really just estimated. And he was like, look, I'm not going to let you go any longer. You've got to get induced. I wasn't making any progress. I was zero centimeters dilated. I was zero percent of faced. And at this point, you're 40. I mean, you're so long. uncomfortable when you're 40 weeks pregnant. You are so uncomfortable. It was July. It was hot. I was like, you know what? Fine. Just get the baby out of me. So July 4th, I go in at 5 p.m.

And they do this thing they call, called servadil. And it's basically this thing that they insert inside you. And it's supposed to like make your cervix thin and hopefully help you dialy. And then the next day they start you on potosin. The problem with me and we'll talk more about like why this is a problem is that when I went into the hospital, I was 40 weeks, five days. So I really pushed it out as long as I could. He wanted to induce me at like 39 weeks. I was still totally like not progressed at all. And that means you don't have a favorable cervix. It is much easier to be induced if you are already kind of going into labor a little bit or you're progressed a little bit on your own. And so they did the servadil and in the morning he comes to check me. And he just says,

he said, you just got a bad cervix. It's just not progressing at all. Like, I don't know how you're supposed to take something like that. Like you're like, well, that, well, I don't know what that means. I can't do anything. And he started asking me, like, do you have you had any surgeries on your cervix? And I'm like, no, I've never had any surgeries on my cervix. I mean, and all this time. Plus, I, you know, I didn't sleep the night before. You're in this hospital room and you don't know, you know, what you're doing. You've never done it before. My husband's there. He doesn't know what he's doing. And the lights are on and there's these people like digging around inside you. I mean, and cervical checks can really hurt by the way, as you can imagine. And so it was just a very stressful and like emotional situation. And I hadn't even started labor yet. And he was basically like, well, let's just go ahead and put you on Potocin and see what happened. Potosin, like I said, is that synthetic hormone that is supposed to make you start contracting. I did start contracting. Baby was doing fine.

I was doing fine. But he came in and he was like, you know what? I'm going to check you in like three hours. And if you're not dilated at all, let's just go ahead and do a C section. And again, I was tired, stressed, emotional, felt like I had a bad cervix, whatever the heck that means. Never learned what that means. And just kind of like the white coat syndrome, syndrome, like all these people are experts. It's my nurse told me as soon as he said that, she was like, I've had three C-sections.

It's totally fine. And I was like, okay, I had never even considered this as a possible outcome before. I just never had even thought of it. And so I started talking to the nurse and just asking her, is there any way I can just go home? Because I'm fine. You said the baby was fine. Handling contractions fine. What if I just like went home for a little bit longer since we're both doing okay?

She was like, well, you could go home and y'all could be fine or you could come back. and you have a still a still birth. That's like a possibility. Yeah, way too. And insight fear. Right. And as I know a lot of moms are probably nodding along, if they've had the same story or a friend with the same story, that happens a lot.

Unfortunately, I am not going to say that is most labor and delivery nurses, obviously, because I've had a lot of lovely ones. And she was actually very nice. But that is kind of what they do. And if you don't know that much and you don't know the calculation or the risk, you're a first time mom. Do you really want the first decision that you make as a mother to to be something that could potentially kill your baby?

Like, of course, you feel like this terrible person that you would have even ever considered going home or not having a C-section. So he comes back a few hours later. He checks me. I'm not progress at all. And I thought, you know, well, it's because I'm just incapable. My body, I'm the one person. I'm the one woman that God made not to be able to give birth.

And so he was like, let's just do it. C-section, I did, did the C-section and, you know, baby was fine. I was fine. But truly, like the recovery, worst pain of my life, physical pain, but also looking back, I don't think I realized just how depressed I was. It was more than just you, everyone has the baby blues after you give birth because of the hormonal changes and you're tired and all of that. But there's another level of people who have dealt with postpartum depression or anxiety can

attest to that's just like you can't you can't stop crying for weeks on end you're just so sad you feel so lost and it there was nothing it was never like a lack of bond between my baby and me um some moms do experience that i didn't have a problem with that i didn't have a problem with breastfeeding i ended up bleeding though um recovery wise you you bleed for a few weeks after pregnancy whether you have a vaginal birth or whether you have a C section longer for C section but i blood for 16 weeks. And my doctor kept on telling me, it's, you know, I don't know what it is. I don't know what it is, but it's fine. Right. I know it's like the bleeding woman in the Bible. I mean, she bled for 11 years. I can't even imagine. I mean 16 weeks. And so, but immediately I knew and I'll pause so we can like, you know, dig into anything that you want to. But immediately I knew after that, that, okay, I want to try to have a vaginal birth next. What's called a feedback a vaginal birth after cesarian because I don't want to do that again. Worst pain of my life.

I knew that I wanted to switch OBs and everything ended up being fine, healthy mom, healthy baby. But what I realized is that having like a physically alive mom and a physically alive baby should really be like the bare minimum standard of care for maternal health care and infant health care. That's obviously most important, but it's not the only important thing. And wow, I realize there's a lot of pressure, a lot of fear mongering, a lot of control when moms are giving birth. And I don't want to say I was a victim of that, but I definitely was subject to a lot of that bad stuff in my first birth.

Well, it doesn't sound to me like total consent. It's more like coercing someone or confusing them. And yeah, when you're exactly what you're talking about, you've never given birth before. It's a totally new experience. I can only imagine myself in that situation. Like, I'm going to be scared to death. And if a doctor says, hey, we got to stringy up the wall and do this, I'm going to be like, okay, whatever it takes.

Like, I don't know. And you didn't know either. I mean, so looking back, did you feel like the reason that you ended up being told that you needed to get a C-section was because of doing the induction when you shouldn't have even been induced or what? Yes. I think I should have, as long as Baby and I were okay, I'm not against C-sections. and I'm not against inductions in every situation.

I think that there are cases where that's medically necessary. If the mom has super high blood pressure, I'm not saying that specifically. There could be people that say, oh, no, induction is never necessary. I am just saying, I'm sure that there are situations where induction is medically necessary, C-sections medically necessary.

I'm very thankful we have that technology. But for me, knowing that my blood pressure was fine, my health was fine, the baby was totally fine. It's not like the baby was, she was measuring like huge or anything like that, even though even sonogram measurements can be like super off. But we were totally fine. And it is normal. It is very normal for a woman to go to 42 weeks gestation. And I should have been given that time. I mean, you can sign now I know that, you know, some doctors will say, okay, if you go past 40 weeks or 41 weeks will make you

basically sign this like consent form or release form, basically saying that we're not liable if you have a still birth. I just don't understand that. But, but, but, Ali, wouldn't you agree that God made our bodies, like, we, we know from, you know, biology and science and years and years and years ago when God created Eve, like, our bodies know how to have a baby? Would you say that it is wrong to kind of step in and play God a little bit and be like, we want the baby to come out now? Do you think the baby should just decide when it's ready to come out or what are your thoughts on that now? Yes. And so unless there is a pressing need, I would say the rule absolutely should be that you let the woman's body and the baby do what God designed them to do. Obviously, we know there could be situations where medical intervention is necessary.

But as you said, so perfectly, God designed our bodies to get. give birth. He designed them to do that. And now I know after having a second child that my body simply goes past 40 weeks gestation. My second baby, I went into labor naturally at 41 weeks and one day. And so it's just kind of sad to me. And I still, it's crazy almost three years. I still have like your birth never leaves you, especially if you have somewhat of a traumatic birth. Like it's crazy that I still have regrets and I still think about that first birth so much. I still think about what if I had just like what what if I had listened to my gut instinct when I saw that sign on my doctor's desk and what if I just switched. I didn't realize you can switch your gynecologist or your obstetrician in your third

trimester if you want to. I could have listened to that. I could have asked some people. I could have said, you know what? I don't think this is a comfortable situation. Actually, I am going to go home. You're not going to force me to a C-section as long as we're fine. But also as you've been. You don't feel like you have that authority when people are telling you, okay, well, your baby might die. So, yeah, you get into those situations where people, I think, do think that they know better than you, they know better than your body, they know better than God. And you feel in some situations totally powerless to push back against them.

Did you consider getting a doula at all for your second child? I did. So I did have a doula. And she was great. And I can just like briefly, I don't know if you want me to go into my like second birth story. Well, it's up to you. I just didn't know if having a doula there made a difference in you feeling like in the delivery room you had a voice when there was something going on that you didn't like or didn't want. Yes.

But my second birth was yes. So she was amazing. The dula was amazing. She was amazing throughout my pregnancy. Like I really love her. We still talk. I think I would have her again. I know that I would have her again.

She was awesome. But my second birth, it went so quickly. I knew that I wanted a V-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B- looking-back, I probably should have because there were a bunch of interventions that probably shouldn't have once again. But they were very V-B-B-B-B-supported. For people who don't know, V-B-B-B-B-s very safe. there is a risk of something called uterine rupture because you've got the scar, you've got an incision on your uterus,

but there's like a 99 point, I think it's 9, 6% chance that your uterus won't rupture. It's a very, very, very low percentage of people who have a uterine rupture. And even if you do, like you're very likely, you and the baby are very likely to be fine. And so they were very pro-veveback. They were very supportive of me. And the biggest thing was that I want to,

to go into labor naturally. I didn't want to be induced. If you get induced, that actually ups your chance of uterine rupture. And thankfully, I did. I did go into labor naturally. And I was so just that alone. Like I was so happy about it because my previous doctor told me I had a bad cervix, which he never told me what that meant. But I thought that that meant I can't dilate. Like my cervix isn't going to do what it used to do to give birth. My body is just like bad basically. It's just malfunctioning. And I did. Like I went into. labor naturally. My water broke at home. And all the things that were supposed to happen did happen. And this was just a totally different birth. And the reason for the C section was totally different.

I dilated to, well, first of all, I got, I didn't think I wanted an epidural. I was like, I'm going to do this naturally. As soon as the contractions came on, I was like screaming at my husband to give me to the hospital for an epidural. And so I did get an epidural. I dilated to five centimeters. Don't have a bad surgery. Vicks, but there was what's called maconium. I don't know if you're familiar with what we've never heard of that. Yeah. So it's kind of gross for the moms like you, you lose any like a grossness filter.

I feel like when you become a mom, especially when you give birth, you also lose like all dignity. And so there was, um, mconium is like the first poop that a baby has. Oh, yes. Okay. Not. Yes. They're really not supposed to poop in the womb. but sometimes it happens, especially if you're later gestation and I was 41 weeks and one day.

And so, yes. And so that could be a sign of fetal distress. And also I spiked a really high fever and we didn't know why. I had like 103 fever. I did not feel well. Then my blood pressure went down all the sudden. I was passing in and out. And so and then the baby's heart rate.

was super high like 200 and wouldn't go down. And so I don't know if it was the, there were so many different things that were done because I had a fever and because I wanted an epidural. I got the epidural. Then my blood rate went down. So they gave me something for my blood pressure or my blood, yeah, my blood pressure to go back up. They said I was dehydrated because the epidural can dehydrate you. So they gave me like intravenous sugar water to help with my hydration. Well, after the sugar water, my baby's heart rate goes up, obviously, because like, that's something that's going to happen. Because the baby's heart rate is up, because I have this infection, because it's a be back, because there's maconium, um, they took me back into a C-section again.

So was it medically necessary this time? Maybe, maybe it was medically necessary. Or was it because of the series of interventions that the hospital just does that actually just made it kind of a bad situation? I don't know. Um, I will say the second time around the C-Sysm, section was better for whatever reason. The physical recovery was a lot better. The emotional recovery was a lot better. I don't really know why. Maybe it's just because I went through it before. But yeah, I mean, it was still super disappointing. I, it's crazy. Like you think that after you have a baby and you have healthy babies and you're alive and it's fine that you're like, you don't think about your birth. You're like, well, it ended up whatever. But, you know, as I said earlier, I still have a lot of

sadness about the fact that I haven't had a vaginal birth. And I think a lot of women deal with that. Conservatives talk a lot about the propaganda that saturates Hollywood. There is tons of messaging in the content we consume that stereotypes conservatives paints us in a negative way or even trashes America and the values this country was founded on as a whole. The fashion industry is no different. It's completely corrupt and everyone from small clothing lines to big designer brands typically give a lot of money to left-leaning causes like Black Lives Matter, ink, or Planned Parenthood. Not these three boutique. First Corinthians 1313 says, and these three remain, faith, hope, and love.

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experienced during your first birth especially. Can you talk about some of the shocking things that you discovered about C-sections and the C-section rate in the United States? Yes. So I have some notes that I'm going to look at that I just wanted to. Yes. So there are about 10,000 babies that are born in the United States every day. And almost a third of those are C-sections. Now, according to the WHO, which I know, the WHO in a lot of ways is super sketchy, but they're also the ones that have all these statistics on worldwide birth rates. And the worldwide C-section rate is 21%. So in the United States, our C-section rate is much higher, about 33% than the rest of the world or the worldwide average rate. And the worldwide rate is up pretty significantly since 1990. It's tripled actually.

in the past 30 years. And some of that could just be a good thing. It could be developing technology, especially in developing countries that previously didn't have access to it. But some of it, and the WHO says this, is because of unnecessary C-sections. And the CDC also says this, too, that 25% of low-risk pregnancies into the C-section, that number is really high. So low-risk means it's a single life birth, so not 20% percent.

their triple, it's not multiples. The baby is head down. The mom doesn't have some, you know, dire underlying condition, 25% of low risk pregnancies into the C-section in the United States, which is much higher than most countries. Now, some countries, especially in South America, for whatever reason that I don't know, have really high C-section rates. But that number, a fourth of healthy births in the C-section is still really high.

And the reason behind it, there are a lot of different, there are a lot of different theories. I think I am probably representative of one of the reasons, just a lack of education, but also pressure from doctors. There is potentially a financial incentive. That's what I was thinking. Why would a hospital want to pressure or talk a woman into having a C-section she doesn't really want or need it? There has to be money to be made because, I mean, then you're doing this whole surgeries, right? so they make more money off the whole labor? Yes.

Now, okay, so I read this from NPR, and this was citing a new study published by the National Bureau of Economic Research. So it says this, obstetricians in many medical settings are paid more for C-sections. In a new working paper published by the National Bureau of Economic Research, Health Care Economist, Aaron Johnson, and M. Merit Rahavi calculated that doctors might make a few hundred dollars more for a C-section compared to a vaginal delivery and a hospital might make a few thousand dollars more. Now, they do say, because a few hundred dollars, like, is that really that much? They do say that the doctors probably aren't that motivated by the money. The hospitals, however, might be.

And so what we also found, what I also found in my research is that hospital policy really determines a lot of, a lot of the outcomes for births, whether it's a vaginal birth or a C-section. I didn't know that. I didn't even research the C-section rate at the hospital that I was delivering in for my first birth, but come to find out, it's super high.

It is way higher than it should be for low-risk pregnancies. Every hospital has different policies. Now, whether there is a financial incentive for all of these hospitals to be pro-unnecessary C-section? We don't know, but I definitely think the financial incentive is a possible reason for it. What did you find out about early inductions and the early induction rates in America? Are those also problematic or concerning at all?

I think it's concerning, certainly, because, so I think what doctors are probably more motivated by more than the few thousand dollars. I mean, maybe it adds up. Maybe it's, you know, tens of thousands of dollars extra that they would make every year. And maybe they are, you know, financially incentivized by that. But I think a lot of doctors are very risk-averse. I think it's a lot of what they learn in medical school, a lot of what the hospital tells them. But a lot of it is that they are nervous.

The longer you allow a woman to be pregnant, it is true that the possibility of stillbirth goes up, the possibility of complications go up. That is true when you go past like 41 weeks. I'm not saying that's bad to go past 41 weeks, but they are right that there are more risks. I think a lot of doctors feel like if they induce at a certain time and there is one study, there's a study called the arrive study that did show, but it's very controversial and problematic. Honestly, I think it should be debunked that says that inducing at 39 weeks can lower the risk in a very small way of stillbirth. And so I think a lot of doctors,

they either look at that study or they just want to control the situation. So if they can, if they know that the baby is going to be born on this day, or they can, you know, they can schedule it or they can ensure that the baby is born how they wanted to be born through a C-section, then they feel like there are fewer variables

that they have to deal with. So it's actually not like C-sections are not less risky at all. they're much more dangerous for the mom and for the baby in most situations. But I think doctors feel a greater sense of control. And there was just one other thing before I pause. There was this interesting study that actually shows. So this is a 2014 study. And this is according to the Atlantic that studies have found that C-sections,

especially first-time C-section, spike around morning, lunchtime in the end of day, which could be interpreted as induced demand by doctors. who are responding to scheduling pressures. It's convenient. Yes. And I mean, my first baby was born at 1155. Oh, my gosh. So, yeah, I think that that's part of it.

I think a lot of it is self-serving for doctors, not all doctors, but a lot of doctors. How do you feel hospitals might be failing women on their postpartum journeys? So my postpartum nurses, as far as I can remember, were wonderful. I mean, they were super helpful. And it's just like you really do just lose all dignity, especially with the C-section. So you can't walk, first of all, because the bottom half of your body is numb.

And when you do start to feel pain, it is like it's terrible pain. It's terrible pain. They have to like your scar, like my C-section scar actually still hurts. It's still like a little bit numb. Yeah. And so you can imagine like right after you are sliced

open through your abs and through all of that and through an internal organ. And like, I don't want to get too graphic. But with some people, like with me, they have to like rearrange your organs. They have to take. I know. I don't know. But okay. I will say. I'm just, I'm just reacting as a girl who's never had birth. So, but it's important to know this stuff. Because you know what happens? Yes. Yes. We have birth and then they were like, no one's ever told us this. Yes. They had to like take my bladder out and put it back in. Oh, I know. I know. And so you just imagine like how much that would possibly hurt. And then right after it, they have to press on your stomach really hard to get like the blood and everything out of you. And so it's just, it's such like a horrible, horrible, horrible thing.

I just like wouldn't wish it on anyone. But the postpartum nurses are really great in helping you. You lose all dignity. They're helping you go to the bathroom. Of course, like having your husband there. I one thing I also thought about is wow if you're a single mom who had a C-section you don't have a husband there you don't have anyone besides the nurses there oh my goodness how difficult would that be you can't even reach over and get your baby out of the bassinet I cannot imagine no I can't imagine and so I do think like I think someone should start maybe I'll start it one day like some kind of Christian ministry where you are just like a postpartum dula for free for people who for women who we're single and who need it.

I do think, like, when you think about having other kinds of surgeries or other kinds of injuries and you have long-term rehab for that, you have basically mandatory rehab and insurance covers it and for, you know, a broken ankle or a surgery on your hand, you have all of these follow-up appointments, maybe every week or multiple times a week for several weeks until you get better and they ensure that you get better. there should absolutely be postpartum physical and maybe even emotional therapy that is covered by insurance what you actually get if you have a C section. I'm not sure what it's like if you just have like a normal vaginal birth.

But I had a two week appointment just to like check my scar to make sure my scar is not infected. And then you have a six week appointment. I think everyone has the six week appointment to make sure that everything is like closed up and all good. And that's all you get. And you fill out this little questionnaire that says, like, have you had thoughts of self harm or anything like that? Or are you sad all the time just to like scream for postpartum depression?

Did you feel like you talked about that you experienced the worst depression of your life? Did you feel like you got to a place that it was that bad in your depression after giving birth? No, I never had thoughts of, I never had thoughts of self harm or anything like that. It was really just sad. It was just sad. And it lasted for a few weeks. Some of it, I think, was now. like, oh, I'm sad that I had a C-section, some of it, baby blues. But after my second birth, when I didn't have that, look, I thought back to my first. And I was like, oh, I was really sad for a really long time. But it never got, it never got to that point, which is maybe why I, like, never saw a therapist.

Or I'm not saying that people should wait to get to that point before they see a therapist. But for me, I just didn't realize it in the moment. But there's just not a whole lot of consistent help for women postpartial. And I'm thankful that I have a mom who lives close by who is super helpful. I'm thankful for my husband. A lot of women don't have that. And so, yeah, I think there's so much more support that should be given and covered by insurance for women.

If you're going to give that kind of help to someone who like broke their wrist and needed surgery, I mean, C-section is a major surgery. Giving birth no matter what is a major deal. I think that there should be absolutely more systemic support for women after they give birth. What is your prediction for how hospital birth will be like five to 10 years from now? Because, you know, I'm thinking of secular cultures, acceptance, and also just perpetuation of this idea that, you know, men can get pregnant, they can breastfeed, they can menstruate. So ultimately, do you feel like that's going to redefine how hospitals approach birth in future years?

Oh, I thought about this when I was pregnant last time that I was like, if I had a single nurse, asking me my pronouns or what I identify as or calling me a pregnant person. I am going to be so, I'm going to leave that hospital. But thankfully that didn't happen. I think most people in like the normal world are like pretty normal. So those are just Twitter freaks. Yeah, they just don't think that way. Now, of course, there are people in, you know, out in the wild who do think that way. But I think most people in labor and delivery, like they're not insane. And so I didn't have any of that. I was worried about that. Second birth was also in COVID, so I was worried about that. The WHO predicts that C-section rates are going to go up. However, I do think that more people than ever are talking about

the importance of natural birth, the importance of truly informed consent, the possibility of home birth or birth centers. Are you considering that for your next birth? Well, now that I've had two C-sections, the risk of a uter rupture, something going wrong, does go up. I won't say that I'm not considering it. But I'm definitely considering a vaginal birth. Absolutely. I just want to say anyone out there who has had one C section or two C sections,

it is totally possible for you to have a V back. That's just what the statistics say. That's what the evidence says. So I would love to give birth outside of a hospital because both experiences have been bad. But we'll see. We'll see, I'm not pregnant and I'm not planning on getting pregnant within the next, I don't know how long. So, yeah, we'll see when the time comes. Would you describe the American hospital system as generally pro-life or pro-abortion, meaning did you think in your experiences with your two children that those who were working in labor and delivery every day recognize the sanctity of life?

Or do you think that birth is really just the opposite of abortion? and it's just a side of a business for them. Both experiences in both hospitals, I felt like everyone was super, I mean, yes, I was fearmongered in the first birth. But as far as the labor and delivery nurses, as far as the postpartum nurses, especially the second time around,

I was in, I was like in a very liberal area the second time in probably a liberal hospital. And yet I felt like everyone was so compassionate and so attentive to, ensuring that I got to hold my baby that in a lot of ways my wishes were honored. Some ways not. But I didn't feel like anyone was, you know, you hear these horror stories of babies

who get taken away from their moms because the mom tested COVID positive or whatever thing. And those exist. Absolutely. People have terrible, terrible experiences postpartum in hospitals. For me, I felt like all of the nurses were compassionate. Now, whether they were anti-abortion, I don't actually know, but honestly, most of them were Christians. It seemed like. And I do think that the nurses really care about the mom and the baby.

It seems like there is a superiority complex when it comes to a lot of doctors, that they are very dismissive of you, very dismissive of a doula or a midwife or things like that. And so I would say it's, I would say it's getting better because there are more conversations about birth plans and informed consent and alternatives to the hospital. So I actually do have some optimism and hope there. Do you feel like the conservative movement is actually doing enough, though, to equip women for motherhood? Is the conservative movement doing enough to equip women for motherhood? I am not sure. Well, I'm not sure exactly what that would look like. I know that we've talked about or I've talked about.

I'm sure you've talked about it too, what I like to call toxic mommy culture. And that I would say is not necessarily like a, just a liberal thing. It seems to be more of a secular thing. But I do see people who probably are considered right wing that are probably fine with that and thinks it's just a joke to talk about how terrible your kids are, how they're just grass and how motherhood is so like awful.

whatever. And so I think that we should oppose that and we should approach motherhood with joy and with gratitude. And I do think conservatives should, because what we should do, I think what we've seen over the past couple of years is that the biggest threat to our freedom and the biggest threat to human flourishing is not only the government. It's not only governmental bureaucracy. It is also health care bureaucracy. It's also corporate bureaucracy. And it is a conservative position to be against any kind of administration, whether it's corporate, you know, leadership or hospital leadership that is ramming down policies that are bad for the individual just because it makes them a buck or just because it's more convenient and it's more, you know, they can have one

kind of conformed system or pattern or recommendation that they have. So I do think it's a conservative position to kind of push back on things that don't make sense to be truly pro-involve. informed consent. I think a lot of people's eyes have been opened to the possible corruption and the ineptitude of our health care bureaucracy over the past couple of years. So I definitely think conservatives should keep pushing back against that. Okay, correct me if I'm wrong on this, but you have been critical, correct of the pro-life movement telling women that they can have it all, career and children. Because I feel like you've told me that before, that you're like, I disagree with them always telling girls like you live your dreams you can be both you don't have to have

your abortion and you can have the career of your dreams and do everything you want to do. I probably have said that before because I do think that it is I do think it's true that something's got to give now I am living proof that you can do something that you want to do and you can be a mom but I cannot do everything that I want to do career wise because there's something that I want to more, which is mothering my kids and not just delegating that task completely to someone else. If I like I could dedicate if I wanted to probably 20 more hours, 25, 30 more hours to my job every week. I could post more on social media.

I could go on. Gosh, me too. I could write more articles. There's always something more that I could do. But I make a decision to turn it off at a certain time of day and do what I need to do and want to do and love to do as a mother. You can't have it all. Like something's always going to give.

Actually, every second of every day, whether you're a mom or not, is a decision of your priorities, a decision of what you want to do. I think that the message in general, the pro life message in general is true that, hey, like, this is not, you're not consigned to failure, a career failure. If you have a child, that doesn't mean that you can't do anything. that you want to do career-wise. You can, but we're going to have to learn a little bit about sacrifice and being a mom. It's going to be different. Your nights are going to be harder. You're going to get less sleep. Your body is going to look very different. It's never going to be

the same. There is time that you're going to have to give up. There's energy that you're going to have to give up. There are commitments that you're going to have to give up to be a mom. And the message, I think, should be more than that trying to kind of like erase those sacrifices is to say those sacrifices exist and they are so totally worth it and they're actually better than any other priority besides Jesus and your husband that you have in your life. I really like the way that you said that there are sacrifices, but those sacrifices are worth it. I think that's beautiful. That's one of my favorite things I think you've ever said. You are talking, I mean, on this episode, about the dark side of the birthing business.

Why do you think it's important for mothers to be talking about this? Yes. Okay. I'm going to use this as a. segue to bring up something that I found last night when talking about the dark side of the of the healthcare system that I thought was really interesting that is a little bit different than what we've been talking about. But I purposely didn't share it on Instagram because I wanted to share it on this billover. I love that. Yes.

Okay. So we hear a lot about what we're talking about, you know, unnecessary procedures and moms. Mom's not being listened to. and our pain not being taken seriously and things like that. And we hear this in particular about black mothers. We hear that the maternal mortality among black women is a lot higher than it is among Hispanic or Asian or white women. And we hear that the reason for that is racism.

And I've often wondered about that. And I've heard anecdotes from a lot of people that I love and trust who are black, who have talked about like I had a friend, for example, she was giving birth to her second child. She was 28 years old. And they denied her an epidural. She lived in this poor area at this poor hospital. And they gave her an epidural only after they found out that she was married in 28.

She looks really young. They assumed that she was, they assumed that she was really young and unmarried, like a lot of the other women that were coming in, predominantly black area. And I was like, that is awful. Definitely discrimination. Definitely racism. Yeah. Well, definitely some. some maybe it has something to do with socio-economic cause. I don't know. They were used to though

treating young, vulnerable, black, poor women poorly. And she was definitely the subject to that. So I don't doubt that that exists that any kind of evil can exist in all kinds of institutions. But something that I found out in reading that I thought was really interesting that we should talk more about, not because I'm trying to debunk that necessarily, but because it's another topic of conversation that we need to talk about in the dangers that pregnant women face is that the leading cause of maternal mortality is not so the CDC has all of these things that cause all these factors that can lead to maternal mortality like hemorrh gene like heart problems underlying conditions like diabetes hypertension and things like that and unfortunately those

show up more often in african americans than in other races So that could also be part of this. But actually, the leading cause of maternal mortality more than any other factor that the CBC list is homicide. What? More women, more pregnant women. And women after they give birth, up to 42 days after they give birth, die by homicide, usually by their domestic partner, than any other cause of maternal mortality. And the number one victim of homicide as a pregnant woman or a woman. postpartum woman is a black woman, an African-American woman.

Okay, that is a huge mind-blow moment, Allie. I totally agree. I was mind-blood last night. This is from a study out of Tulane University. I can send you the link so you can put it in the description. Yes, please do. Homicide during pregnancy or within 42 days of the end of pregnancy exceeded all the leading causes of maternal mortality by more than two-fold.

Pregnancy was associated with a significantly. elevated homicide risk in the black population and among girls and younger women ages 10 to 24 years old across racial and ethnic subgroups. So we also need to be talking about this, that black pregnant women and postpartum are dying by homicide and huge rates, typically by, I don't know if it's the father of their child, but their domestic partner. That far exceeds actually the death by whatever is happening in a health care system, which of course matters too for women of all races. But we're not even talking about this.

I didn't even know about this until last night in this study that I just happened to come across. I think there's so much that we won't even have time to cover today of the risks that pregnant women face. Well, I know I speak for all conservative. I hope you do some follow up episodes on your own podcast relatable and go into this more because it is fascinating. And also it sounds like another narrative of the.

left, that can be easily debunked that no one's looking into. Exactly. That's exactly, that's exactly what I thought to. Almost every single left-wing statistic that sounds like awful or they attribute to something. I mean, that is awful, but that they attribute to some cause that kind of advances their agenda, it's almost always missing context or incorrect. You're joining. It was announced this week, Charlie Kirk on the Educate Don't Mandate Tour, which is very exciting. I found out with the Russian. of everyone else. I was like, oh my gosh, I'm going to go to this now. So what cities actually, I don't know if it's one or more than one, can keep conservatives go see you and Charlie in person

and when, do you know? Auburn, Alabama, March 31st, and then Ann Arbor, Michigan. I think that's a high school, April 11th. And Fairfax, Virginia, April 25th. I also think that's a high school. and Carteret County, North Carolina, Tuesday, April 26, which is interesting because I looked it up on a map. I have no idea how we're actually going to get there. It's like a little coastal area. So I'm super excited. Obviously, Auburn is a university, but the rest of them are high school. And I'm super excited about it. Yeah, it's going to be really fun. That's great. And if someone has never, which I really find it hard to believe that anyone listening to my show has never heard relatable. but if there's one person that hasn't ever listened to Relatable, where can they listen?

And then what can they expect to hear from you on that show? What type of podcast is Relatable? Yes. So Relatable looks at news, culture, theology from a Christian conservative perspective. And so we talk about a lot of different things. I interview a lot of different, very interesting people. I mean, we will talk about things like Ukraine and Russia and inflation and things like that. I'll typically have a guest on.

We'll also sometimes we'll deconstruct the verse of the Bible that is frequently taken after taken out of context and look at what it actually means. We'll talk about deep theological issues or cultural issues like should Christians use preferred pronouns. How do we approach this difficult subject of gender and sexuality and all of that? And so it's really a mix. It's four times a week. Monday through Thursday comes out at 3 p.m.

Eastern time. It also comes out on YouTube in the evenings. You can get it wherever you get your podcasts. And yeah, that's it. And what's your Instagram? My Instagram is Ali B. Stucky. Ali, I've just absolutely loved you before I even worked in the conservative movement. And obviously now, thank you so much for coming on this bill over.

Thank you. Yes, you are awesome. And just congrats on all of your success and how hard you've worked and how you have just owned this brand and this segment of conservatism. Like no one else has ever or could ever. I'm just so proud of you all the time and I love your content. So great job. Thank you, Allie. When I first started working at Turning Point USA, they asked me, who are two people in the conservative movement that you want to meet if you can meet anyone? And without skipping a beat, I said,

Ali Stucky and Dana Lash. Ali is so full of wisdom on all topics. She has always been so kind to me since we first met and I look up to her so much. And I've had the honor since working here to meet her several times and Dana Lash and both of them have been great. And if you've never listened to Relatable Allie's show, which like I said earlier, I just cannot imagine that any of you have never listened to it, but you've got to give it a listen for amazing insight and interviews on everything from politics to theology. Make sure that today you subscribe to both the spillover and Relatable anywhere you get your podcast and leave us each a five-star review today to support us.

And while this was the first episode that we've done, centered around giving birth and the birthing industry. I have another special episode for Mother's Day, so you've got to wait a couple months, but that one is going to dive specifically into an entirely different aspect of birth. Trust me, it is a huge eye-opener and game changer. You do not want to miss out on that guest views of how birth can feel. Here's a hint, ecstatic. Yep, epidurals beware. New episodes of the spillover come out every Thursday, 9 p.m. Pacific, midnight Eastern on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, Or you can always watch the episode on the Poplittics YouTube channel and participate in the chat on there. Are you even having a good week if you haven't had some spillover in it?

Absolutely not. I'm Alex Clark and this is the spillover. Love you, mean it. Bye.