Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark - Why Comfortable Americans Are So Miserable | Dirty Jobs' Mike Rowe

Episode Date: September 22, 2026

The trades were never the problem. We were lied to about their value.Mike Rowe — host of Dirty Jobs and founder of the mikeroweWORKS Foundation — joins me to talk about the loneliness epidemic, the generational lie that success requires a four-year college degree, and why we need to start encouraging young people to pursue the trades before we lose the skills that keep this country running.We get into the Palisades fire, Spencer Pratt's run for mayor, Charlie Kirk, the problems with higher education, and what it actually looks like to influence the next generation toward meaningful work. Because if we're going to fix what's broken, we might want to start by teaching young people that a good life doesn't always come with a college diploma.Thank you to our sponsors!SAVA: Use code "ALEXCLARK" for 15% offGEVITI: Use code "ALEX" to get 20% off of your first purchaseBRANCH BASICS: Use code "ALEX15" for 15% off Starter Kits A'DEL NATURAL COSMETICS: Use code "ALEX" for 25% off first time ordersPUORI: Use code "ALEX" for 32% off Puori Creatine+ when you start a subscriptionVOTE ONLINE: Check your voter registration status nowOur Guest:Mike RoweMike’s Links:Mike's InstagrammikeroweWORKS Foundation's InstagramMike's FaceBookMike's XMike's YouTubeWatch Mike’s episode with Alex ClarkFOLLOW ALEX:Alex's InstagramCulture Apothecary's InstagramAlex's YouTubeAlex's FacebookAlex's X🌿 Culture Apothecary WEBSITE/NEWSLETTERJoin the Cuteservatives Facebook group to connect with like minded friends who love America and all things health and wellness! New episodes drop 6pm PST/ 9pm EST every Monday and Thursday.DISCLAIMER: This content is for informational purposes only and is not medical advice. Always talk to a qualified healthcare professional for any health-related questions or decisions.

Just three miles from here, I watch my friend's houses go up in flames and a fire that could have been avoided. A lot of my friends on the left said to me gently over the years, it's not really dignified. That job. You're covered in crap. You're working in a sewer. The loneliness epidemic has something to do with the fact that what dignified work really is, is work that benefits or blesses somebody other than you. How do you get a generation of young people interested in the trades when their parents, which is my generation, millennials, are raising them, and we're, were told absolutely avoid the trades at all costs. We told a whole generation of kids that the best

path for the most people was the most expensive path. The pressure we put on your generation to do that was scandals. Do you remember where you were when you found out that Charlie Kirk got shot? Yeah, I do. Charlie had interviewed me just a few days earlier. Charlie was so smart in a non-college educated way. He believed college was a scam. I did. I didn't disagree with him. where you always heard this voice. My name's Mike Rowe. And this? And this?

And this? It's my job. You really can't breathe. No, this is good, a really strong order in here. You know, part of the reason I'm still doing this crazy show is because I do think that it's important people understand where their food comes from, you know. I don't know how your life is going, son, but in mind,

there's always some nasty little surprise at the end of the day. surprise at the end of the day. A local TV segment about artificially inseminating a cow eventually became dirty jobs and changed the way millions of Americans saw the people who keep the country running. Today, Mike Rowe is an Emmy-winning television host, best-selling author, narrator, host of the way I heard it podcast, and CEO of the Mike Rowe Works Foundation, which helps train people for careers in the skilled trades. We talk about what California reveals about America, why competence matters more than status, whether usefulness is an antidote to loneliness and how to find purpose. Mike interviewed me last week on his podcast, so go listen to that one as well. It's called The Way I Heard It. If you're new here,

we are trying to heal a sick culture physically, emotionally, and spiritually. Every week, new guests help us do just that. Please pause before we get started, leave us a five-star review. Tell me how long you've been listening. This helps us climb the charts and become more discoverable. Please welcome Mike Rowe to Culture Apothecary. So you've spent, what, 20 years talking to people that literally built America? 25, probably, yeah. And now we're in this place where, I mean, we are sicker physically, emotionally, and spiritually, I think, than we've ever been. I mean, from your vantage point, what do you think is going on?

I wrote a book a while ago. It's not really a book. I was in business with Caterpillar, and they wanted to do something to draw attention to the work we were doing. together around the skills gap. And I jokingly said, well, look, if I just write a book about the issue, you can publish it for me because I didn't have time to go to a publisher and go through the whole Mishigash of writing a book. And they were like, yeah, do that. So the book is called profoundly disconnected. And it's really just a collection of essays I had written over the years that answer that question. And in short, it was a look at the things from which we've become

untethered, fundamental, like primal things. And the way in which that happens, which is almost invariably in dribs and drabs, like we're all the frog in the boiling water. And over time, for me, anyway, a lot of things that I grew up with and around became distant. So like I had a granddad, for instance, who was just the epitome of work, a skilled tradesman. And I had such a respect for the men and women who fashioned and built the things I depended on. I had an uncle who was a farmer, and a real appreciation of where my food came from, and the individuals who made it happen, and the challenges that they dealt with every day as farmers, that was like front and center all the time. My dad was a history teacher, you know. So I had a real appreciation and

understanding of where we came from as a country and and so forth. So growing up, it was an embarrassment of access to the things that matter most. This industry that I'm in will wear you down, and especially if you have some success in it. So I worked for maybe 20 years impersonating a host in Hollywood and so forth. And over time, I'm I became slowly disconnected and increasingly unimpressed with all of the things that I grew up with a real appreciation for. And I'd probably still be that guy, but for a phone call from my mom, I was working at CBS.

This was in 2001, and she's like, Michael, your grandfather is turning 90, and I've got such a great idea for a birthday present that you can get him. I said what? And she said, imagine how great it would be if before he died, he could turn on the TV and see you doing something that looked like work. That's hilarious.

Yeah. Next day, I took my cameraman into the sewers of San Francisco, profiled a sewage inspector, put it on the air. Lots of crazy things happened, but in the end, that footage became the pilot for dirty jobs. and that show completely upended my old business model. And I started thinking more like a guest instead of a host, more like an apprentice instead of an expert, and began to shoot in a fundamentally different way than I had become accustomed.

And that gave me a career. Did you grow up in California? I grew up in Baltimore. I spent the first 25 years there. then I lived in a lot of different places, wound up in California, mostly by accident, here in L.A. for a couple years. And then I wound up north, north of San Francisco. That's where the mail still comes to this day. But most of my time is still spent either back east or somewhere in the middle. Every show I've worked on since that phone call from my mom has been aggressively

unscripted and affirmatively untraditional. Dirty Jobs was really the beginning of, well, it was right on the vanguard of reality TV. And so I shoot differently. I operate differently. Everything I've done since then has been different. So yeah, I don't really have a, grow up back east, live in California, work in the middle. So when you look at, you know, what's transpired in the state of California for the last several decades. Do you see this as a state-specific problem? Do you see it as like a clue as to where the rest of the country is headed? I think this state, which I love, you know, I mean, there's so many things about California that I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm, unfortunately, it's nothing the state can take credit for, the geography, the weather, the resources. Those are just

good cards. I think we've did up politically. I think we've put a lot of policies in place that have had a lot of unintended consequences. I work really hard in my life and in my career to argue from the middle by and large. Obviously, I have opinions, but I also run a foundation that is really focused on education and labor, and those two things become highly, highly politicized. And so, for really for the first time in my adult life I've I've invited people on to this podcast

who are in fact political elected officials which I swore I'd never do before but it's because of your question it's because I just three miles from here I watch my friends houses go up in flames in the

palisades and a fire that could have been avoided and should have been avoided and I just see so many things, whether it's the squandering. We're so rich in resources, whether it's energy or timber, and we're so twisted up in our willingness to leverage that great good fortune. And so we're losing companies, not just from Silicon Valley. We lost Chevron, for God's sakes. Chevron left California. I worry that we're driving the billionaires away, and the billionaires have created unbelievable opportunities here.

And yeah, if that sounds political, well, that's where I am now. I worry for the state. You know, you brought up the Palisades fire. When that happened, I think that proved to a lot of people that no amount of money can buy competence. And to just put it simply, what were your honest thoughts on how the Palisades fire was handled? I stood on the roof of this building with some friends.

and watched it burn. And my partner had to evacuate, you know, and was moving her stuff over here into the studio while it was burning. And then I went back to the hotel right around the corner, the Huntley where I stay when I come down here, and I went up to the restaurant on the top floor. And the hotel was 80% empty when I checked in that morning. And that night it was overflowing, 100% sold out.

Everybody in the past, there were refugees. And I remember standing there at that window looking north and watching it burn. And the guy to my right was actually pretty philosophical about it. He was, you know, he said that I can almost see. I see exactly where my house is. And of course it was burning as, you know, as we were talking. Very surreal, you know. And then I got a text.

from my business manager who has a place up there. She was watching it burned from a ring camera, like across the street, you know. And then the woman to my left is crying, you know, and I'm like, oh, gosh, your house is up there. And she said, yeah, I just drove up from San Diego. And, you know, I was trying to think of something encouraging to say. It's, you know, it's just stuff or whatever. And she's like, my dog's in there. Oh, yeah.

I still think about that night as just an observer being down here. I'm a carpetbagger. You know, my office is down here, my studio's down here. I live up north, but I just happen to be down here that day doing some work. And I just happened to have an elevated front row seat to that calamity. And since then, I've talked to guys like Ed Ring, who run the policy, California Policy Center, used to anyway. His successor's guy named Will Swame had him on the podcast a number of times. and I just find myself increasingly wanting to hear from people who have been singing out of the same hymn book for a long time

and suddenly in the wake of what feels like an extraordinary abdication of elected official responsibility have been proven prescient in all of their prognostications. They're a little alliteration for you. It's beautiful. Prescient in their prognostications. This is why they pay you the big bucks. Literally hundreds of dollars, but remember, Alex, remember, alliteration, almost always a noise. You kind of are the godfather of a new version of reality TV that we saw came to be with you.

Spencer Pratt also really was at the cutting edge of a whole new subset there of reality TV. What did you think of him? I had no firm, I never saw, what was it, the Hills? somebody's in? I never saw that. I can't imagine micro watching the hills. That didn't happen.

I did stumble across something, I think it was called Spencer and Heidi, and they were in a jungle. Yeah. And I was like, whatever. You know, I just kind of, for me, reality TV was very cool and very exciting in 2003

because the only thing on the air back then, well, Survivor, so that's a competition show. That's not what I did. And then the only other, It was Jesse James building motorcycles. Oh, yeah.

Orange County Chopper or whatever? Well, that came later. I actually narrated Orange County Shoppers. Really? Yeah. That was called American Chopper. Yeah, that's what it is. Yeah, yeah. The drama.

The deadline. One man, a son. Whatever. One man, a son. Building motorcycles. What reality TV became and what nonfiction TV became is, you know, arguably not quite literal. But there was a.

time when reality TV was real. And that's when Dirty Jobs hit. That's when Deadliest Catch, the crab fishing show. Oh, great show, yeah. So I've narrated Deadliest Catch for 23 years. That show, I wound up hosting. I was trying to sell dirty jobs to the network and failing because that footage from the sewer that my mom told me to go get because it looked like work, the viewers loved it, but the network thought it was off-brand. So I couldn't sell that show. But they liked me, and they liked the idea that maybe I'd be out in the world going on adventures in a way that was more consistent with discovery.

And so we got this footage from a friend of mine named Tom Beers, who had filmed these crabboats in big weather off the Pribilov Islands up in the Bering Sea, not far from Russia. And network's like, well, that does look kind of exciting. want to go up there and check it out. And so I did. And so the six weeks I spent up there that season, which culminated in six funerals tragically, that's what I mean by real. Like you can't script the Bering C, right? And when you put that level of reality on TV and like the viewer knew it couldn't have been fabricated, you just can't, you know, call for the next rogue wave

and the next tragic sinking. So high stakes, hard men, fishing in a difficult environment, feeding, feeding the country. I mean, that was a reconnection for me. One of the first ones when I talked about profoundly disconnected, you know, it wasn't from a farm. It was from a fish boat. And seeing the risk those guys were taking to put food on the table, that was exciting. And the network got it. And that's when they ordered dirty jobs.

And that's when I started calling farmers and miners in particular. There are only two industries in the whole world. It's agriculture and mining. Everything in this room either grew out of the ground or was pulled from it and fashioned into something useful. So dirty jobs and deadliest sketch and reality TV in that moment, to bring it back to me, we're all just personal attempts to get reconnected,

to the stuff I knew was important once upon a time, but from which I'd become somewhat untethered. So what did you think when Spencer announced he was running for mayor? I loved it. Because in the same way, what you've done with your show, we need disruptors, we need jagged little pills to come in at inconvenient times, to say inconvenient things,

to people who have become comfortable and corpulent. we need that and you don't always get to choose who that vessel is in fact you never do like depending on your politics a lot of people who voted for trump you know a lot of Christian people who look at Trump see a crazy flawed individual who was somehow preordained or predestined to do a thing, right? You just don't know really who in the world is going to deliver a message that might need to be delivered. I think who knows what Spencer will do politically, but I think he got, he had a unique amount of permission because he lost his home. And, you know, his indignation was righteous. And yeah, when he first started mouthing off, I was like,

well, this will be interesting. I can't wait to see how this ends. Well, it ended with a bunch of votes mysteriously being discovered in the middle of the night, of course. Well, it hasn't ended yet, has it? You know, that was the end of a chapter. I think right now, if I had to guess as to what the real legacy of his candidacy

is going to be, it's going to be the complete reimagining of political advertising. And that's huge. I so agree with you. I say this as a guy, once upon a time in another life, I was the voice on hundreds of political ads. I'd go to my fax machine,

I'd take out the copy, and I would read it. And it was always the same, you know, drugs. They're in our schools, our neighborhoods, our families. But Senator Jack McGillicuddy just doesn't seem to care. You know what's so funny is I didn't even think about the fact that you do all this voiceover work. That's my dream job. If I wasn't doing this, it would be that.

But I have no, you know, I don't have the type of, voices you, but it's my dream job if I had the chops. It is a fabulous gig. I think it's so fun. Look, there was a time when I would tell you there was no better way for a guy like me to make a living. And really for a lot of other guys, because before I was famous and kind of a big deal, I was just a... You can make so much freaking money, and then nobody bothers you when you go out in public. It's really like the smartest gig of all in Hollywood.

So I was working in a jingle house in the late. 90s. And I wasn't writing jingles. I just happened to be my office was in a jingle house. And the guys who wrote these jingles were brilliant. And the production entity, it was called

The Music of Paradise. And they had a deal with gray advertising, and gray advertising had a deal with Domino's Pizza. Right? So I was doing my job at the time. It was this weird partnership with William Shatner. We were working on the

crazy, crazy project. Beside the point. I'm leaving and I'm going to go to Australia to see some friends for a couple of weeks and just kind of screw around. And as I'm walking out the office, the guy who ran the joint, John Leffler said, hey man, can you do

a quick little scratch for me over here? Domino's is in the house and we're delivering this spot and we just need a voice talent to do something. And I'd done some VO back then, not a lot. And a scratch track is simply a place holder, right? And so the commercial itself was finished. They hadn't cast for the voice,

but Domino's was releasing their first deep dish pizza, right? Yeah. So I go in and the line is when it's got to be deep and it's got to be thick, it's got to be dominoes, right? So, so I say it, you know, and the guy's like, ah, it's pretty good. You want to try it again? And I said, when it's got to be deep and it's got to be thick it's got to be dominoes he's like can you do it a little deeper I'm like deeper when it's got to be deep and it's got to be thick

it's got to be dominoes so they're like okay great so it's just a scratch so it gives me $200 and I go to Australia three and a half weeks later I come back from Australia oh gosh so here's what happened they play it for the client

client loves a spot no notes they say all right we'll do the casting for the voice over tomorrow and they're like, well, what do you mean? Yeah, what's wrong with this guy? And they're like, well, that's Mike. You know, he's in the office down a, it's down the hall. He's just Mike. You say, you know, a guy. And they're like, no, we like it. Put him in. So unions oversee this, right? And the thing goes on the air and it's everywhere. It's everywhere. I came home. I had just under $40,000 in relatively small checks jammed through my.

door thing. Wow. In residuals. And that's when I thought, oh, voiceovers. Yeah, I'll do that. So to this day, if there's a wildebeest trying to get across the vast reaches of the barren serengeti, but being slowly eaten by, you know,

hyenas and lions at the watering hole, that's me. Well, Snoop Dogg had the same idea, because look at all the voiceover stuff he did in the last couple decades. And all that weed. And all that weed. And Martha Stewart, maybe. I don't No. They got really close. Pretty sure Martha was hitting it. You know what?

The weed. Have you ever talked to her or met her? Yeah. I think she would be such a fun interview, the dynamic between the two of you. I was doing a show called Prevention's Body Sense. It was sponsored by Prevention Magazine. And she had something to do with that. And she came on the set one day and we said hi.

Yeah. But it's a long time. It was 1997 probably. Oh, cool. Yeah. But she's still out there. I love it. There is a very specific woman who emerges every September.

the temperature drops four degrees. Suddenly she's like, I need soup, I need a cardigan, we need to go apple picking. Ma'am, it's 87 degrees, but I know you're lighting a candle called Autumn Hayride, you're watching, you've got mail, you're putting cinnamon in places that cinnamon is absolutely no business being, but I respect you, because I am you. And this year, I'm adding Sava's seasonal pumpkin spice protein to the psychosis. My easiest fall breakfast, ready? Blend pumpkin spice protein from Sava with banana, milk, ice, cinnamon, and a spoonful of almond butter. It tastes like fall, but you're actually getting a lot of protein instead of drinking this nasty 600-calorie milkshake with tons of yucky ingredients. Sava's everyday protein uses 100% grass-fed bone broth and gives

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and premium prescriptions. Use code Alex to get 20% off your entire first purchase. That's code Alex for 20% off. Start your health journey today. Code Alex to get 20% off your first purchase at gojevity.com. Don't wait. In your opinion, is the loneliness epidemic

really about loneliness? Or do you think it's about the lack of usefulness? People ask me a lot about dignified work. And I think that's a kind of usefulness as well. I've been making this point a lot lately because I think it's really interesting. I mean, we did 350 dirty jobs, and a lot of my friends on the left

have said to me gently over the years in somewhat critical tone. You know, it's not really dignified that job. You know, you're covered in crap. You're working in a sewer, you know, you're picking up, you know. And so I argue. I have my own opinions on it. But it really did strike me that a lot of the country

thinks about the dignity of work or the usefulness of work through the lens of the circumstances of the job. Is it hot? Is it cold? Is it comfortable? Is it dangerous? Do you get a nice lunch break? Are there perks?

Is there a per diem? You know, is your boss a schmuck? Is like, are you treated well? Do you feel all these things? The loneliness epidemic has something to do with the fact that what dignified work really is, is work that benefits or blesses somebody other than you. It's purpose, which is really, I think, the biggest antidepressant.

I'd buy that. Yeah. So if you look around at lucrative opportunities that pay people a lot of money but don't offer a clear path to improving somebody else's life, you start to see where the problem is. It's not the loneliness epidemic in the sense that there's just some guy in a basement with nothing to do and feeling sad and depressed. A lot of it has to do with people who are very busy and actually making a pretty decent living, doing something that doesn't actually benefit anyone other than themselves. And unfortunately, there are a lot of opportunities in this country that qualify for that. So part of the answer is we don't quite know what a good job means.

We haven't settled on the definition of meaningful work just yet. But the other thing I would tell you is there's a terrific book you would love called Men Without Work. It's written by an economist called Nick Eberstadt. And it was so good that it was republished during the lockdowns because everything he wrote in 2005 became a kind of prophecy, you know. and he points out that 6.9 million able-bodied men right now today are not only not working, they're not looking for work. Why? First, he would tell you it's never happened in the history of the country, not in peacetime anyway.

Part of the reason they're not looking for work is because they're able to survive without working. Part of the reason they're able to survive without working could include anything from a trust fund to an entitlement program to, a spot in their parents' basement? I think it's 67% of men 18 to 29 also have completely checked out of dating. So they're not interested in marriage, but they're also not interested in girlfriends, and they're not even interested in sex. So all of that is true. I mean, the percentage of guys who are 30 who have never been on a date will break your heart.

It's crazy. So before I tell you vis-à-vis Nick, what those guys are doing, let me tell you what they're not doing. They're not volunteering at the local food bank. They're not involved in Skills USA or Future Farmers of America or the Boy Scouts of America. They're not in the Kiwanis Club or the Rotary or the JCs or the Lions Club. They're not touching any kind of civic organization. They're not involved in their church. They're not doing any of the dignified things that you might be able to, to do if you had 2,040 hours of free time because you're not working full-time, right?

They're not doing any of that. What they're doing is they're on that thing. They're on a screen, and they're swiping left, and they're scrolling, and maybe they found a bottomless well of porn, or maybe they just found something that makes them laugh, or maybe they're gambling, or maybe they're, who the heck knows? but they are deep into their screens on average over 2,000 hours a year. That's what they're doing. I only bring it up because I talk a lot.

The country right now has a skills gap. They're 7.2 million open jobs. Most of those jobs don't require four-year degree. They require training, right? That's what my foundation focuses on, getting those people, the training they need to do the jobs that are available. And these jobs, Alex, I mean, they're, They're good jobs. They're AI-proof six-figure jobs. Electricians, plumbers, steam fitters, pipe fitters, welders.

So how do you get a generation of young people interested in the trades when their parents, so I'm talking about this, it'll be gen alpha. Their parents, which is my generation, millennials, are raising them. And we were told absolutely avoid the trades at all costs. You have to go to college. You have to have a cubicle job or you're not successful. Well, the answer to that, you know, because you're doing it in your lane. You're saying, how can you ask me not to trust the FDA? How can you ask me not to trust my doctor? How can you ask me not to trust just a cacophony of experts who went to school and who told me that cholesterol was a killer? Like you want me to somehow swim against that current? So you think that the younger generations like Gen A, when they get a little bit older here,

they're going to look at Gen Zian millennials and say, I don't want that. I need something different. When you were on my podcast, we talked about the power of an actor in a lab coat, impersonating a doctor, smoking a pall mall, and telling the world that it was good for you. Look, that's happened everywhere in virtually everything to some degree. To what exact degree?

I don't know. But I do know that speaking very broadly, we told a whole generation of kids that the best path for the most people, from an educational standpoint, was the most expensive path. And then we told them they were screwed if they didn't borrow whatever amount was necessary

to get them on the people, path to get their credential. And the pressure we put on your generation to do that was scandalous and extraordinary. Now we have $1.7 trillion of outstanding student loans on the books, most of which is held by kids who either graduated from a four-year institution or got halfway through it and quit to do something else. To have seven million open jobs that don't require one of those degrees and 6.9 million men who are not interested in looking at those opportunities while at the same time we continue to lend money we don't have to kids who are never going to be able to pay it back to train them for a bunch of jobs that don't exist anymore. That's every bit as crazy as hiring

an actor and putting them in a lab coat and filing up that camel and saying, suck it in, man, and enjoy it. It'll calm you down. Everybody talks about finding your calling. How do you know when you've actually found it? You're tired and you're gratified and you're sort of relieved and still may be a little curious to see how it ends. We just launched a campaign with the federal government to reinvigorate the skilled trades across the country. It's called Build Freedom and it is going to feature my foundation and me going to a variety of states to make a more. more persuasive case for these jobs that are wide open. Six-figure AI-proof jobs. I'm talking about electricians in Plano, Texas, making $230,000 a year with no debt. I mean, that's more than some

general physicians. Sure. Oh, and minus the debt out of the whole equation. Time away from family, all that. All of it. So that is very gratifying to me because 16 years ago, you can find the footage right now on YouTube. You'll see me testify. before Congress and before the Senate, suggesting that they do this very campaign. So if you're saying how does it feel to have 16 years later see the headlines catch up with your own smack, it feels great. You know, I mean, you don't really want to take a victory lap because the stakes are really high and I'm worried about our country and I'm worried about a workforce that's that far out of balance.

that that can't be good in the same way, I think, that you're worried about a food chain or a supply chain or an ecosystem, all the crap on the shelves, you know, you're worried about that because somebody needs to worry about it and somebody needs to do something. Your shoes travel through parking lots, public bathrooms, locker rooms, picking up dirt and potentially bacteria, pooh-poo-doodoo and residues like pesticides and herbicides.

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that Charlie Kirk got shot? Yeah, I do. I was sitting right here. and my producer who's out of the shot right now said they just shot Charlie. In the middle of recording? Yeah. Yeah. I was like, geez, keep me updated. And I finished the interview. And then I went across the hall to talk to my partner.

I had a meeting with a guy who is about to change the entire face of metal independence in this country. It's a fascinating conversation, and I was really looking forward to the meeting, and it was an important meeting, and walking over, I paused and I looked at the video, which somehow insanely and obscenely was available, and I knew he wasn't coming back from that, and then I sat down and had my meeting, kind of set that over there for a bit. I had, Charlie had interviewed me just a few days earlier on his show. He liked me and he believed in what I was doing. And he, Charlie was so smart in a non-college educated way.

He believed college was a scam. He did. And, you know, I didn't disagree with him. One of the last points I made to him was, you know, you might not have, a degree from a university, but you have a liberal arts education. And it's your most powerful rhetorical weapon. And the fact that you got that information, you got that education, you got that knowledge from other sources, you know, that's very, very important for people to understand. Like, the fact that I could watch a lecture from MIT last week for free in my hotel room on my screen,

You know, like, so it's all available. And I think Charlie was armed with just an extraordinary amount of useful information. And I only make the point because what I said to him in that last interview, too, was don't mistake me for a guy who wants to train the whole country to weld or run pipe or electric hard stop. That's not it at all. I think the thing that we missed that we really need to reconnect on profoundly is the mix of skill and liberal arts innovation. Like we need, this happened with Rubio, you know, who I think is doing a pretty great job right now, Marco is, you know. But 10 years ago, he was in the debate, and we're 17 of them on stage, and they were, you know, Trump was in the middle and they were all having. In 2015.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 2015. Man, those were like the golden days. What were you, nine? I appreciate that. No, I was watching it hype and I just, I remember thinking like, what are we doing?

I just, I was like, this is so weird how popular Donald Trump is. Like, he's not going to be our nominee. Look, it was, it was, I remember Reince Prebus saying in an interview, was like, look at that stage. We have so many amazing people. We have this woman. and we have this man of color and we have this poliches we have this is and really what

was coming out from the whole thing was look they're all wonderful wonderful choices anybody but the guy in the middle not no but look at all the others right which by the way sidebar but fascinating rumination on what do you do

when your customer wants a product that you don't want them to want and that was the GOP then that's exactly right But here's the point I wanted to make. Marco says at some point, and so what our country really needs are fewer philosophers and more welders. And the crowd goes crazy, big applause line, and I'm watching it.

And I immediately opened my computer and all the socials are lightened up. They're like, Mike, this guy's really singing your song, isn't he? I'm like, no, man. No, no. That our country, the problem with the country isn't too few philosophers. or too many philosophers and too few welders. The problem is we don't have any philosophers who can, like, run an even bead. And we don't have any welders who can talk intelligently about Descartes or Nietzsche or Plato

or maybe make a case for the Stoics. If we want our kids to think critically, there is a Charlie Kirk lesson. You know, you have to arm them with a lot of stuff that you can still learn in a university. but just because it's valuable. But just because something is valuable doesn't mean it's priceless. And it was the cost of college that Charlie and I really, really agreed on. And that's what made it a scam. One thing that's struck me about Charlie was that he really seemed to know what his mission was unusually young.

So he was, him and I were the exact same age. He was graduating high school, starting Turning Point USA. I was graduating high school, starting my career in broadcasting. Some people spend decades trying to figure out what, they're supposed to do with their lives. Why do you think for people like Charlie, it comes so easy and you just know so early? I don't know, but I'll tell you this.

If there's one quality in the guests I have on my show that keeps me doing my show, it's that. It's people. And I don't care how old or young they are. That's less interesting to me than finding people who are clearly doing what they're supposed to be doing. I just interviewed a colonel named Nick Nichols. who runs Folds of Honor.

Folds of Honor is the biggest scholarship foundation in the country. It's for sons and daughters of first responders and military people who don't make it home. $240 million in scholarship so far. Now, Nick flew 30 missions. We're 30 years in the Air Force flying an F-16. He's 104 missions.

He's a hero. He's a, he is the fight. fighter jet pilot off the recruiting posters. And what's he doing now? He's focused entirely on the sons and daughters of, you know, his compatriots that didn't make it back. And he's so convicted, he's such the right guy for that job. And right before him was a 22-year-old named Ethan Thornton, who runs a company most of your listeners probably haven't heard of. It's called mock industries. Mock Industries is making the next generation of autonomous weapons that's going to decide whether or not our military prevails down the line

because you know what? We're not going to out-manufacture China. We're not going to do it. They made a thousand ships last year. We made three. When things get hypersonic and get squirrelly with Taiwan, it's going to be companies like Ethan's that are going to tip the scales. And there are half a dozen other ones like it.

But Ethan is like Charlie's age. You know, like they, how do you know how I, look, I envy that. That wasn't me. I knew when I was 15, I was going to follow in my grandfather's footsteps, the guy who could build a house without a blueprint. I knew I was going to go into the trades. I didn't have the necessary skills. Yeah.

I had the mindset of a tradesman. I just didn't have the skills. Well, but so that's interesting. Like, you, yeah, you knew you were going to go into the. trades and you kind of did it was just in a really unconventional way right different toolbox and and so when I was 13 I was telling everybody I know that I'm supposed to do something where I'm supposed to talk to to young girls and young women and I thought at the time because that was when you know devil wears product came out and I thought I'm going to be a fashion journalist I want to

work for fashion magazine and write about fashion I was like my whole dream I spent my entire middle school high school career I mean interning and and all kinds of crazy stuff like like working towards that. And you know what? I ended up in broadcasting and what am I doing? I am working with young girls and young women. And that's what I do. So innately, I knew that, but God obviously knew, well, it's going to look a little

bit different than that. You kind of got it, but not quite. I'll help you. And so it's funny. I don't know if in your career you can kind of see that, you know, where you, you were like, how did all these doors open and lead to one another? But then when you look in hindsight, it all makes sense. Crystal clear.

Yeah. You know, a lot of what came out of Dirty Jobs were a series of specials where I would take, like, the Dirty Jobs version of conventional wisdom, which was always some version of a contrarian take on conventional wisdom, right? So, like, follow your passion. You know, everybody's seen that successory. It hangs in, you know, conference rooms all over the country. It's a monument to determination, right? follow your passion, identify your dream, focus on it, and you'll be like Beyonce. And like, in fact, Beyonce said from the Grammy Awards, see anything's possible, never

ever give up on your dreams. Well, that's nonsense. That's very, very dangerous advice to a kid like me who dreamed of being exactly like my granddad, even though I didn't have the necessary skills. Now, I could have worked and worked and worked and I could have maybe gotten better at the thing he was so naturally good at. But back to American Idol, it's like you don't, if you want to see people who follow their passion,

look at the early episodes of every season. Hundreds of people show up to audition on camera in front of the world, many of whom learn for the first time that they can't sing. Yeah. I think for the first time in front of millions of people. because everybody only ever told them you can do it. You just have to believe. You just have that's your dream.

Stay on. Never quit. Staying the course can be great advice, but only if you're going in the right direction, right? I love when people say, I don't take creatine because I'm not trying to look like the rock. Really? Neither am I.

By that logic, I shouldn't drink water because I'm not trying to become a whale. People hear the word creatine, and then they start picturing some guy named Blade screaming at a squat rack while dry scooping pre-workout and punching drywall. Meanwhile, there's actually a ton of research looking at creatine, not just for physical performance, but for cognitive function and mood, too. At this point, I'm interested in anything that helps me remember why I walked into the kitchen. That's why I started taking Peory-Creatine Plus. What caught my attention is that they combined five grams of creatine

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32% off your first order when you start a subscription that's more than $23 in savings. That's Puri p-U-O-R-I.com. Use code Alex at checkout for this exclusive offer. Being an adult is basically just finding out that everything important requires follow-up. You think that you've handled something once and then five years later someone's like, no, that expired, that change, that was never processed, good luck. That's voter registration. People assume that they're fine because they registered once in college or because they voted a few years ago, or because they have this touching faith

in administrative competence. Meanwhile, all it takes is moving homes, even within the same state, changing your name, not voting in a while, or some random outdated info, and suddenly you've got a problem. Here's what's wild. Tens of millions of eligible Americans

either aren't registered or aren't even sure if they are. So let's not do the thing where we find out too late and then act shocked. Let's just be adults for 30 seconds. Go to real Alexclarc.com slash vote. I made it really simple. You can check your registration status.

That's all it does. Just tells you if you're registered to vote or not. And if you're not, register you to vote. Not even telling you who to vote for. Real Alexclerc.com slash vote. So what is the antidote? There's so many single women that listen to my show that really desire to be married and they're going, okay, but where are the masculine men? I mean, what is your anecdote to this lack of masculinity that we're seeing?

It's like the old joke, you know, you lost your car keys and you're looking for them, you know, in the street. under the light, but you actually know you lost them behind the house in the dark, but you're looking over here because the light's better. You know damn well, your keys aren't there. Where are you looking for these masculine men? Exactly. I think the corollary in that is the dream job. Back to the passion example. Like, what am I supposed to do with my life? Well, what do you want to do? Well, I want to do this. Okay, so that's your goal. All right, let's get you the tools. you need for that goal. But keep your eye on that prize, borrow whatever it takes, learn the skills, get your credentials, get your degree, and then pay your dues, and then maybe one day if you land

that job that you identified years ago was going to be your dream, then you can be happy. Then you can write your book on how I did it. And then we will all applaud your success. What if, now, and we know what a canard that is. That's not how the world really works. The most successful people on dirty jobs didn't follow their passion. They followed opportunity. And then, after they figured out how they could make an actual living, then they focused on getting really good

and competent at what that living was. And then, only then, did they figure out a way to love it or to be passionate about it. What if the jacked up advice we've given a whole generation of kids to be happy on the job, What if the secret of job satisfaction really rhymes with the fallacy of a soulmate? Now, this always makes people very sad and angry when I say this. Yeah, that you don't believe in soulmates?

I'm not saying I don't believe in them. I'm just saying if there is such a thing, there's only one. And you're walking around a planet with like 9 billion people on it, right? And if you're looking for your soulmate underneath the light, even though you knew you'd lost your keys behind the house, and you're going, gosh, there's nothing under this light. You know, where are all the masculine men? I don't know, but they're not there. They're not there.

You're probably looking in the wrong place. And if you want to talk about how to get more masculine men, well, that's a different question, and that's going to have a longer tail. And I don't have a very good answer for you. But they're out there, and they might not look like the guy, you have in your head and they might not have the job you would want this soulmate of yours

to have. And so look if you watch Cinderella enough and if you watch enough rom-coms and if you're a young girl growing up and you just want to have some kind of realistic expectation of how the world works, you're going to be

you're going to be disappointed you know and the same is true I think of job satisfaction. That's my answer. Never follow your passion, Alex, but always bring it with you. After spending 25 years with Working America, what is the biggest thing that you've changed your mind on? Lots of reminders about, like Mike, remember there are only two industries, farming and agriculture.

Remember what dignity in work really means. remember your own limitations. It's a very long list, but professionally, professionally the biggest realization that I had came after 20 years of hosting shows you've never seen and narrating programs

and doing, God knows how many commercials and saying things like when it's got to be deep and it's got to be thick. It's got to be, right? After doing that for a long, long time, I got really comfortable with my lifestyle. I was really good at auditioning so I could get cast a lot.

And like my granddad said, you know, I got a different toolbox. And I was able to work a lot in my chosen field enough to take my retirement in early installments. And I really had it figured out, you know, when I was like, 38, 39 years old. I really thought I'd crack the code. I could work when I wanted. I had enough money to be comfortable. I didn't have a lot of expenses, and I had a lot of free time. Any regrets? I would have, but my pop turned 90. My mom called to say, maybe you should do something that looked like work. I went into the sewer. And what happened in the sewer is a story for another

time, but I did write a book about it because down there, as I attempted to host the show that I was paid to host, every imaginable thing went wrong from just rats and roaches and just covered in filth. And, I mean, it was a baptism in a river of crap, honestly. And what came out the other end, though, was... Fun intended. It was a conversation with a real sewage worker who was brilliant and honest on camera. And it was that footage that I got accidentally down there.

When I looked at that footage later, what I realized to my horror was that I was actually a better guest than I was a host. And the realization was shocking because I had been. somewhat successful impersonating a host and a narrator and a pitchman for all those years. But in that moment, I knew that there was a different way forward. And so if I could cast myself in a reality show, not as a host or an expert, but as a dilettante, an avatar or a cipher or an apprentice, then I wouldn't be judged on my ability to do the job right. I would only be judged on my willingness to try. And that realization was what Aristotle called a parapetia.

It changes the direction of your career and your life and your worldview. And so when dirty jobs worked right on the heels of that revelation, that's when I thought, bye-bye lifestyle, no more early retirement. I went, I shot for 10 years. I lived on the road 280, 300 days a year for 10 years. And I'm still on the road primarily because the foundation that evolved out of that and all the good things that have happened since then. Really, it, I mean, you could argue it came from some great advice from my pop,

get a better toolbox, or my mom do something that look like work. but what it really was was a rat intervention in a river of crap that turned into footage that led me to conclude I'd been doing everything wrong professionally up to that moment you know what I've learned about you you have a lot more in common Mike Roe with Paris Hilton than I think most people would think because you know what Paris Hilton also was like I'd be a good guest and let me just sit back and follow these people doing their real life and make that show the simple life, right? And watch them just live and let me just experience how they live. I think everybody at some point, if they're honest with themselves, will find that parapetia

in their own life. And if they listen to it, they're going to have to take the reverse commute in some way, shape, or form. They're going to have to challenge some consensus. For me, it was the consensus that the best path for the most people was a four-year degree. That turned into the back half of Dirty Jobs. Every show I did after Dirty Jobs and the foundation I ran today. I don't know what happened to you, but something must have because you're slaying dragons. You're tiltinged windmills. You're pushing the rock up the hill.

You are a jagged little pill taken on a bunch of angry acronyms. and it's really been fun to watch you do it. Thank you. I don't know how your story ends, but it is interesting. I'm sure it'll probably be in a gulag. A gulag, like, like I'm going to be.

There's a book for you. Who knows? Who knows? Gulog, gulag archipelago. Oh, yeah. Alexander Soljian-eatson. There you go. Funny.

No, it's not funny. Okay, tell us the name of your podcast and the types of interviews that you did. The podcast is called The Way I heard it. It originated with short stories for the curious mind with an abbreviated attention span. So it's like the old Paul Harvey show, the rest of the story. I would tell you a truish story about something you didn't know about someone you do. And there were mysteries, right?

That turned into a TV show and then a movie. and then on the podcast it became a discussion. So like I would tell these stories, these little mysteries, and then bring in guests to tell me what I got right and what I got wrong, right? And we would just kind of open that up a bit. And then in time, you know, writing short stories, at least good ones, is really hard,

and it takes a lot of time. It's much easier just to sit down with interesting people who are doing what they think they should be doing. I think those people are interesting And that's what my podcast is today That's why you were on it And that's why God, I guess we've been doing it now 10 years

In a way it's an extension of dirty jobs In the sense that I do like people Who are doing something important Out of sight, out of mind But mostly I like the I like the jagged little pills Well, you've done some health podcasts You've had some cool ones

You did an episode on the comfort crisis Oh yeah, you know Mike Easter? Well, I've never had had him on the show. But you know what? He lives in your hood. I know. Yeah, he's in Vegas, right? Yeah. Yeah. So he's pretty close. So we'll bother him again. I'll be like, hey, I was on with Mike. But, no, you've done some, and also some health ones. Like you were talking about, on my episode with you, the one guy, Peter. Oh, oh, his name's Philip. Oh, Philip. Yeah, he's a doctor. It's not Sarno. What's his last name, Chuck? Ovadia. Ovadio. Every time. I don't know. I have a mental block,

But yeah, he's, oh, your listeners would love this guy. Yeah, yeah. So you've definitely done stuff that's in their wheelhouse. So you guys should go listen. I interviewed with Bobby Kennedy. Oh, really? Okay, that's awesome. Oh, yeah.

Perfect. Yeah, they'll love that. Okay, so I ask every guest this on my show. If you could offer one remedy to heal a sick culture, it could be physically, emotionally, or spiritually, what would it be? It would be some version of Michael Easton. RAP, which is the comfort crisis. Just the, if I think of the things that have worked out well that I'm proud of, that mattered,

none of them were comfortable. The willingness to be uncomfortable and not just endure it, but to actually like it, that's a trick. It's also a choice. You can do it. You know, it's not like your skin color or your IQ or your blood type or your star sign or some other thing out of your control. You can choose to be okay being uncomfortable.

And like to put it, I was thinking of this after you and I chatted the last time. Like what's the difference between hunger and feeling hungry? I mean, the answer is enormous. It's enormous. Like 99.99% of Americans who have said, I'm hungry. I'm starving. I'm famished. I could eat a horse.

No, you couldn't. You couldn't eat a horse, and you're not starving. You're not even really hungry. You just haven't eaten in like five hours. Or maybe 10. You could go a week. Now, would you be hungry? Like legitimately hungry a few days in?

Yeah, I guess. But, like, this confusion between the thing and the feeling of the thing, it has something to do with a better answer. answer to your question. I would say know the difference between feeling hungry and being hungry. And if you know that, then you're probably not going to be obese. Right? Yeah. Like know the difference between, you know, feeling horny and doing something about it. Right? You'll probably stay married a lot longer. Know the difference. You know, it's hard because you, you know, we spend so much time wanting to get in touch and be in touch with our feelings. But, you know, that thing that hangs on the

wall over there, it's called a sweat pledge. Everybody who applies for one of our work ethic scholarships has to sign it. And there's some things on there that not everybody agrees with by design. But all of it kind of rhymes with this basic idea that because you're a fellow human and because I like you, I am interested to know how you feel about any number of things, but not nearly as much as I'm interested in knowing what you think about all of those things. I guess my answer would be check your feelings, put them where they belong. Don't ignore them. Part of the fun of being alive is having feelings. But part of the trick of mastering your existence is knowing when to ignore them. Beautifully said. Mike Roe, thanks for coming on. Is that what this was? That's what this was.

That's what this was. Great. Thanks, Alex. Really fun. Mike Rowe has spent decades reminding us that the people who make civilized life possible are often the people we overlook. Our conversation left me with a simple idea. Purpose may not be something that you find.

It may be something you build by becoming useful, accepting responsibility, and doing work that matters to someone besides yourself. You can hear Mike interviewing me on the way I heard it podcast. and learn about his work supporting the skilled trades at microworks.org. New episodes of Culture Apothecary come out every Monday and Thursday at 6 p.m. Pacific, 9 p.m. Eastern. Continue the conversation after the show and make like-minded friends in the cute servatives Facebook group. Follow me on Instagram at Real Alex Clark in the show at Culture Apothecary. I'm Alex Clark, and this is Culture Apothecary.