Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark - Why Family Estrangement Happens & How To Fix It | Dr. Joshua Coleman, PhD

Episode Date: December 13, 2024

Why are so many adult children distancing themselves from their parents? Dr. Joshua Coleman, a leading expert on family dynamics and estrangement, uncovers the hidden psychological factors driving these painful rifts and offers a clear path to healing. With over 30 years of experience, Dr. Coleman provides essential guidance for both parents and children navigating the complexities of family conflict.Thank you to our sponsors!Join the biggest conservative movement in the country!AmericaFest | Use code “ALEXCLARK” for 25% OFF General Admission at https://amfest.comGood Ranchers⁠⁠ | Use code “CLARK” for a free gift of chicken breasts, ground beef, bacon, or salmon for a year plus free express shipping Cozy Earth | Use code “ALEX” for 40% OFF Cowboy Colustrum | Use code “ALEX” for 15% OFF Natural Sloth | Use code "ALEX" for 15% OFF Just Ingredients | Use code "ALEX" for 15% OFF Dr. Joshua Coleman, PhDX | @drjcoleman LinkedIn | Dr. Joshua Coleman Facebook | @drjoshuacoleman  Instagram | @dr.josh.coleman Website | www.drjoshuacoleman.comAlex ClarkInstagram | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@realalexclark⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@cultureapothecary⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@realalexclark⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠X | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@yoalexrapz⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@RealAlexClark⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcast | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠New 'Culture Apothecary' Merch OUT NOW! Glass tumblers, weekly wellness planners, hats, crewnecks and more. Use code "Alex Clark" for 10% OFF at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠tpusamerch.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join the Cuteservatives Facebook group to connect with likeminded friends who love America and all things health and wellness! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join the CUTEservative Facebook Group!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Subscribe to ‘Culture Apothecary’ on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. New episodes drop 6pm PST/ 9pm EST every Monday and Thursday.This show is made possible with generous donations from listeners who believe in our mission to heal a sick culture.You can support our show by leaving a tax deductible donation, or by subscribing to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@RealAlexClark⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ YouTube for FREE! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠donate.tpusa.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠#cultureapothecary #alexclark #podcast  #health  #wellness #family #children #relationships

Why are so many adult children cutting ties with their parents? Parent can credibly feel like they did a really good job raising their child. And their child could feel like, no, you actually miss some really important things. Or you are really hurtful to me in ways you're completely clueless about. Your child grows up to reject you and they want no relationship with you. Does that mean that you're unlovable? It feels that way as the parent. We need to feel like we matter.

70% of the adult children who are estranged, the parents were divorced from the other parent. If you're traumatizing your parent by cutting off contact with you and grandchildren, you're actually not ending it here. You're perpetuating it. Why do children stop talking to their parents? There is a silent epidemic growing, according to therapists and researchers, and that is family estrangement. Popular culture tells parents that if their kids stop talking to them, it's what they deserve. Obviously, there must be some sort of secret abuse that they aren't being honest about. However, today's guest, psychologist Dr. Joshua Coleman, says,

estrangement is much more complex and varied due to rising rates of individualism, a cultural obsession with self-love and doing what's best for you regardless of others. Plus, a recent phenomenon that parents are somehow obstacles to personal growth, we are seeing record rates of children cutting out parents or severing relationships between parents and grandchildren. How should parents navigate these circumstances? Dr. Coleman is here today to help parents better understand the mindset of their adult children and strategies to implement for reconciliation that he has seen work time and time again over the 40-plus years of his practice. Watch this episode of the Real Alex Clark YouTube channel or on the Culture Apothecary Spotify.

I hope this will prove helpful, especially during the holiday season, which can be a very sad time for so many families. Please consider leaving a free five-star review for the podcast if you have ever learned anything new, and especially if you just discovered us, I want to know what episode brought you here. We are completely donor funded, by the way, as a show, fun fact. And since it is the season of giving, if you are feeling generous this holiday season, it would be life-changing for myself and my crew for you to decide to support us financially. You can leave a tax-ded deductible donation through the link in the show notes if you believe

in our mission to heal us at culture. If you are one of these people who is estranged from their family over the holidays, there is always a family for you with like-minded women in the Kutervatives Facebook group made for fans of this show where you can make friends, discuss the the same topics that I talk about here and meet up in your own city and state. Please welcome author of Rules of Estrangement, Dr. Joshua Coleman to Culture Apothecary. Doctor, why are so many adult children cutting ties with their parents? People have always cut off parents or family members in their past, but no other time in our

history has it been so much connected to strivings for personal growth and happiness and mental health. And therapy has become much more part of people's lives. younger generations are much more in therapy than older generations were. So people have this idea of chosen family. The old days of honor thy mother and thy father, respect thy elders, families forever, has given way to this much more kind of psychological, personal growth, personal happiness orientation. So people are much more thinking about, is this relationship in line with my ideals for who I want to be? Or are they not? If they're not, then, you know,

not only can't I cut them off, but I should cut them off. That's historically new for us. being over-therapies? It's probably not a word. And is that contributing to this problem? I think that it isn't so much that they're being over-therapies as much as they're being saturated in social media with Instagram influencers and TikTok influencers or with people who aren't really that well-trained. So there's all of these posts about, well, who's toxic, who's not toxic, why you should cut off, you know, who's your narcissistic mother, why you're going to feel better. And again, and these are people who have no investment in the family or the outcome. You know, in the old days, be kind of like, well, you're going to cut off your parent. You're going to have to hear from

other people who know your parent and they're going to have an opinion about it. But now you're going to get opinions from people who have no investment in the outcome of that. Some stranger is going to say, oh, your mom's this way, your dad's this way, your siblings this way. You know, this is why you should do it. But they don't have to live with the consequences. So this degree of anonymity that we have is also really causing a lot more estrangements that might exist otherwise. Is there a problem with everything being so me-focused? talking about self-love, and you need to do what's best for you? Yes, I think it's really, really well said.

And there absolutely is we're very preoccupied in our culture with self-care and boundaries and setting limits and creating my personal space and happiness. And we have kind of this poverty of language of interconnection and interdependency and caretaking and our responsibility to other people. So there is a kind of a narcissism in the culture that's, you know, you know, it's been going on for a while, but it seems like it's only getting worse because of social media. The reality is that sometimes the kids could be the narcissist, even though they're like, I think my parent is a narcissist, so I have to cut them out of my life.

Absolutely. Right. I think that's exactly right. That the adult child may be as much the narcissist as the parent or more than narcissists than the parent. In your experience, do the majority of kids cutting ties with their parents have good reasons to do so? I mean, I think they have good reasons to do so based on their own perspective of what's a good reason to do so. So I think in general people don't do it just in a kind of a willy-nilly casual way. But, you know, if you look at most of the first-person essays in our society, people who write about their own experience of why I cut off my narcissistic mother, you know, father or whatever, usually those are written about people whose parents really were

abusive or neglectful in ways that, you know, any of us could understand why they would do it. But that's only one pathway to estrangement. But people, because it's the main one that gets talked about, people assume that the only people cutting off parents are the only parents being cut off for those who are really abusive. But people also get cut off by parents as a result of divorce, as a result of mental illness, certainly on the part of the parent, but also on the part of the child. Bad therapists who sort of assume that everybody, you know, has a problem in adulthood. It's because of a traumatic childhood. Sometimes people cut off parents because they don't know any other way to feel separate from them. them because parenting has become much more intensive over the past four or five decades. Sometimes

it's because the adult child marries somebody who says choose them or me. You can't have both. So there's all these different pathways to estrangement other than parental abuse. But if you just look at what's written in the active culture, you would assume that the only parents who are getting cut off are abusive parents. And that's just simply not true. There's a lot of good, loving, decent parents and grandparents who are being cut off. Is there a common age that the cutting off seems to happen? Yeah. The studies show that it's typically in the 20s, you know, between 23 and 26. Currently, 26% of fathers are estranged from a child. The 22% more likely to be estranged from a daughter than a son. Something like 11% of kids. Adult children are estranged from a mother. So it's a, you know, it's a really common, serious problem in our society. Are adult children obligated to have a relationship with their parents? Well, you know, in culture,

other cultures than ours, they are. And so, you know, I think in our society, we kind of have to rethink the way that we're encouraging younger people to feel like they have no obligation to their parents and that it isn't just about them and their happiness. Because one of the other things that isn't talked about enough is that when an estrangement occurs, it's a cataclysmic event in that family.

And not only does it, you know, cause an enormous depression or anxiety or fear in the part of the parent, but it also divides grandchildren from grandparents because typically they're a casualty of the estrangement. Typically, if the adult child cuts off the parent, then they say, but I'm also going to cut off access to the grandchildren. Siblings get divided between siblings. When something may say, you're full of crap,

mom and dad were great, and the other something may say, yeah, I agree with my brother or my sister. I'm going to ally with them. Ants or uncles may step in to fill the parental role. It can affect the marriage negatively. So I think we can't just have our focus Does the society be on whether or not it's good for that individual? You know, I'm constantly interviewed by people who go, well, when should a parent be cut off?

And I'll always answer that question. But it's like, we also have to say, what is that life going to be like for the parent in particular who's been cut off? You know, I have parents in my practice, mothers in particular whose lives have been ruined as a result of it. Who feels like, what purpose do I have? What's my life even, what kind of meaning do I even have in my life if I don't have my child in? or if I don't have my grandchild in it. I mean, these are the markers of our identity and our solidity and our feelings that we matter in the world is our connections with family.

And when those get kind of torn away from us, it can create intense feelings of depression and anxiety and loneliness. So, again, I just think as a society, we have to do a much better job of this. Is it a uniquely American thing for adult children to cut out parents or tell their parents that they're not allowed to see their grandchildren? It's not uniquely America. No. And the fact, the study that I was referring to earlier that said that 26% of dads were cut out was also done in Germany.

So I would say it's more of a Western societies, much more than Eastern societies. That's kind of what I was getting at because I feel like I can't imagine a Japanese family basically tolerating this. Right. Like I can't imagine Asian cultures doing this. I mean, is that like extraordinarily rare? It is rare. I mean, you see it more in, you know, Asian American families, but in Japan, I've interviewed a number of people from Eastern societies,

and it is much more uncommon there. And it's much more associated with a feeling of shame. And there's the idea of filial obligation, that you actually owe your parents something. You know, in China, for example, they have elder abuse laws where if you don't visit your parents, you can actually be fined for it. Whoa. Right. So.

I don't disagree with that. What do you think? I don't. No, I mean, I'm going to find my kids if they don't call me. Okay, so I'm always on the hunt for the perfect gift, you know, something that's both thoughtful and practical, but here's the thing. I want to make sure it's also non-toxic. I got a whole brand image to uphold here.

So because I don't want to be gifting anyone, a candle that's filled with harmful chemicals, I love giving natural sloth purifying beeswax candles. They're the kind of gift anybody is going to love, and they're completely safe to burn in any home. Each natural sloth candle is made safe certified, which means it's been rigorously tested to be free from harmful chemicals. Plus, they're made with non-toxic, clean ingredients, and feature a wooden wick for a long natural burn. These candles don't just smell amazing. They help purify the air and release negative ions that promote relaxation, making them perfect for unwinding after a long day. My personal favorite is the Christmas tree scent.

By the way, never ever synthetic fragrance. This is real fragrance. The winter beeswax candle is a fan favorite. You will immerse your sunset. in this fresh, crisp blend of pine, balsam fur, and minty peppermint. This scent brings the feeling of a snowy forest right into your house. Whether it's for a friend, mom, even grandma, co-workers, Secret Santa, make the switch from those chemical-laden candles to natural sloth.

Go to natural slop.com and use code Alex for 15% off your order. They're veteran-owned, by the way, and made in America. That's natural sloth.com for amazing non-toxic beeswax candles. Use code Alex for 15% off. And we talk about the ultimate one-stop shop. for all things clean, healthy, and non-toxic, my place. Well, also, it's just a website called Just Ingredients, and I am obsessed. It's like the Amazon for clean living.

From beauty to baby products, skincare to slow cookers, you name it, they've got it. It's like a treasure chest, but instead of junk, it's full of products that are actually good for you. And listen, this is what I love. Just Ingredients is all about real ingredients. Nothing artificial, no weird chemicals, just clean, nourishing stuff for your body inside and out. Plus, if you're dealing with that time of the month or navigating paramenopause, you know who you are, ladies.

They've got these all natural solutions for cramps, PMS, and menopause that are real game changers. Crampus happens in your pances, am I right? Whether you're stocking up on skincare supplements or the perfect stainless steel slow cooker. Yeah, really, just ingredients has you covered with super high quality stuff and so much transparency. And the best part, you can save 15% off any product with code Alex at checkout. Go to justingredients.us. Use code Alex for 15% off your order. Can shop clean, safe, and effective products that'll help you feel and look your best. This is the easiest way to make Christmas crunchy all in one place.

Justingredients.us with code Alex. What are the common reasons that these kids are giving you as to why they think that they're better off without their parents in their lives? Yeah. The most common one is emotional abuse and then values differences and then physical abuse or neglect. Those are typically the most common ones. But see, even there, it gets really complicated because studies have shown that there's been what this one researcher called a concept creep in terms of what we consider to be traumatizing abusive, harmful, and neglectful behavior so that over the past 30 years.

So younger generations are getting raised with a perspective of what should be considered abusive behavior, like emotional abuse. Where older generations are like emotional abuse, you know, that was just the way we were raised. I mean, that wasn't emotional abuse. And so, so you have this big disparity in the way that people are conceptualizing. Parents and adult children are conceptualizing what's abusive, what's harmful, what's neglectful behavior. So a lot of my technique in working with parents is helping them learn how to kind of code switch and empathize. Are we getting better at recognizing emotional abuse or are the younger generations over prescribing the term trauma and abuse? The answer is yes and yes.

We are getting better at it. There is a place for it. It is good to be able to set boundaries, set limits, talk about what was abusive. You know, for the parents and adult children in my practice who can have that dialogue, they can have a much deeper richer relationship if the parents can empathize and take responsibility.

But to your point, no, everything is a trauma these days and things that are just, you know, difficult or the normal stresses and strains of family life that in other generations would just be considered expectable. And in other cultures would just be considered normal and expectable, now get diagnosed, now get labeled. And again, that just makes us more and more divided. And it also gives the adult child legitimate, so-called legitimate reasons to cut off a parent who may be more workable, who deserves some degree of empathy or forgiveness or time to sort of

heal whatever harm they've caused their adult child. Is your practice's specialty estrangement? Like, is that what basically all your clients are coming to you for? It is now. And so whose side do you typically take, the kid or the adult? I take both because I have to be able to empathize with the adult child. And I do, like I said earlier, they have good reasons from their perspective. So I'm not there to lecture them or shame them. I'm there to empathize with them in the same way that I want the parent to. So typically it's the parent who reaches out to me because for the adult child's perspective,

it's working for them. They have support from their therapist. They have support from their community. But for the parent, there's no upside to it. It's all pain. It's all guilt. It's all suffering. It's all anger.

it's all sorrow, it's all fear. So what I will tell parents of is if we're going to get into a room together with you and me and your adult child, it's not going to be marriage therapy, you know, where you get an equal say over the relationship and how you feel and what it's going to look like going forward. It's more like you've been divorced and your ex is willing to give you another chance. It's going to be on their terms. And so your goal is to listen and empathize and take responsibility and show care and be

compassionate, not to defend, not to explain. not to push back, not to talk about all the ways that you feel wronged, because, you know, for the adult child, nothing compels an adult child to have a relationship with a parent today beyond whether or not they actually want that relationship. So that means that it's going to be on their terms. How do you know if cutting your parent out of your life is truly the healthier option? I mean, I think that in the same way that people have to earn their way out of a divorce with children, people have to earn their way out of a relationship with a parent. And that means doing a lot of due diligence, which may mean, you know, doing family therapy with that parent, giving them

plenty of time to work or to understand why you want to cut them off, explaining it in non-judgmental, non-critical language. I mean, if you write your parent and say, you know, I learned in therapy that you're a big narcissist, you're not going to get a very receptive response. But if you, you know, write them and say, you know, I'm seriously thinking about ending a relationship because I find that when we're together, you're so critical to me and you're so demeaning and you haven't really been able to address the ways that I felt hurt by you growing up, it makes it really hard to be around you. And I feel like if you can't begin to do a better job with that, it makes me think that maybe we shouldn't have a relationship together for a while. I mean, I think that sometimes a stranger

that can be kind of a shot across to the bow, kind of like a wake-up call for the parent to like, you know, you better sit up and take serious if this is a bigger problem than you're aware of. So that would be how I would frame it to the adult child. What is the first step to getting to the heart of the estrangement? Well, if you're the parent, it's, I encourage parents to write a letter of amends. And that's where you find, speak to the colonel, if not the bushel of truth in the child's complaints, because usually the adult child, not always, but usually they've told the parent what their complaints are.

It may not make sense to the parent. They may not agree with it. They may feel like the adult child's rewriting history, but they still have to be able to empathize with it. I think this is really important. In your book, I was like, okay, this is. smart. He's smart guys. As you talk about in that letter to amends, there are big mistakes that you can make and then

there are great strides that you can make to repair this relationship. And you talk about how in that letter, you gave an example of the letter that you had one parent client right to their child that doesn't want to talk to them anymore. And you were having her say, like, I know that I did this and this and this to you. The mom was like, I did nothing to you privately. Like, I don't know what they're mad at me for, but you were like, doesn't matter if you agree. just say in the letter, you know, I recognize that you feel like I did this to you and I wasn't there for you and this, even if they disagree, because you're something like you're not appealing to your own feelings, you're appealing to the estranged child. Exactly. Yeah, it isn't about you at that point. I mean, it's about you, you know, saving your relationship with your adult child. But I always encourage parents to start off the letter by saying something like, I know you wouldn't do this unless you felt like it was the healthiest thing for you to do. Yes, that's what it was. It was telling them like, I totally understand why you wanted to cut me off, even though.

Like, of course you don't. Well, it isn't, I mean, yeah, if you really do understand, that's fine. But I also encourage parents if they don't understand to say something like, it's clear I have significant blind spots as a parent or as a part. That's hard. That's hard to say. It's really hard. But, you know, we all have our blind spots. I do.

Everybody has their blind spots. And so it's just being, you know, what I tell parents, it's about humility, not humiliation. You know, we have to have the humility to accept that if somebody that we love and care about doesn't want to spend time with us, there must be something we may not, you know, may be blind to. So just coming in from that perspective, and it's also a matter of separate realities. A parent can credibly feel like they did a really good job raising their child, and their child could feel like, no, you actually miss some really important things, or you're really hurtful to me in ways you're not, you're completely clueless about. And so I think for the parent to kind of be grounded

in that reality, that, yeah, they don't have to say they were a terrible parent, but they may have to say that I was really blind to how hurtful that was to you. I didn't know, and I'm sorry. And that's something that I'm willing to work on with you in family therapy or in my own therapy. Those are really the terms and the rules of engagement. You talked about how there are different goals that the estranged parent would have versus the estranged child in what it means to amend that relationship and how it's very important to understand how the goals are different. What does that mean?

For an adult child, have a close relationship with a parent in some ways that's, you know, what we would call a psychological achievement, which means that they have to have the ability to hold onto their own sense of identity. and separateness while they're in the presence of the parent. They can't be so afraid of their parent or so worried about them or so dependent on them that they can't do that. It's kind of like our model for romantic love. You know, to be in love with somebody, you have to be able to kind of lose yourself in them,

you know, that oceanic feeling of losing yourself. But you also have to be able to hold on your own identities or otherwise you'd be psychotic. So it's sort of similar. Which one are you? I know which one I am. Depends on who you're seeing, right? Yeah. And so for the parent, you know, they have to have the willingness and ability to let the adult child set the terms of the relationship, what their boundaries are, how often they can see them, or their grandchildren not to go trip them, not to criticize them, to accept that they, the adult child gets their own version of what the past was like, even if that's at odds with what the parent is. So there's work to be done on both sides. What about the kids who struggle with addiction or mental illness that decide to cut their parents out?

That's hard for parents because if they have done it, then the parent is the double worry about how am I going to reconcile with my child at the same time that they're really worried about that child, you know, how they're doing in life. You know, I have people, parents and my practices adult children have cut off contact with them and they're worried that their child is homeless. You know, we're living in a car. They're living in some apartment with, you know, aluminum foil on the windows so that nothing can get in. So it's a double sorrow for those parents because they want to take care of their child. They want to make their lives better, but they can't. And they can't just show up. Parents should never show up to an adult child's house and just say, oh, I want to have a

relationship or even to apologize. Oh, really? Even if they're not mentally ill. No, right. Exactly. No. No, it always backfires. The adult child always feels kind of torpedoed and blindsided. And no, it's always a bad idea. So if your child has, let's say, a personality disorder, and so you know, Okay, my kid has a diagnosis, not just like TikTok told me I'm bipolar. I don't mean that. I mean, a real issue. How do you, because I'm assuming just the letter isn't going to work. Like, how do you deal with that kid?

I mean, it's a matter of love and limits, love because it's not their fault that they have a, you know, personality disorder, but limits because they can also be really abusive and take advantage of you. So it's often kind of a moving target. I mean, parents have to take responsibility and write a letter of amends, but sometimes somebody who's mentally ill. may also misunderstand that. They may say, oh, see, even now you're admitting that you're so this terrible parent or terrible person. So, but I still think a men's letters are always a good place to start because, you know, sometimes they do open the door to a kid who, even a kid who seems more hopeless or mentally ill. And I would imagine that somebody who is dealing with mental illness, closeness is what they struggle with. Yes. So for a parent to be trying harder, like I need to be

close to you, that's got to be hard to work around. I think it's a really good insight. And I think it's not talked about enough. It actually is the closeness that somebody who's mentally ill can really struggle with. And that's why they need to estrange themselves. It's the kind of like unmet dependency needs or unresolved dependency needs or the anxiety that comes from being close to another person. So I think that that's a hugely important point in one that really doesn't get talked about enough. Is it a normal thing as an adult to think like, well, if I would have had different parents, my life would have turned down better. Yeah, it's very, very normal. And we therapists can kind of play into that, kind of the idea that, you know, with an ideal parent that, well, you have

these issues because you have this kind of a shout at it. And, you know, and maybe that's true, but it's not necessarily true. You know, you can show up into adulthood with significant psychological problems that have relatively little to do with your parenting. Like, let's, for example, look at Gen Z, those born between 1995 and 2012. they have significantly higher levels of depression and anxiety and speculation and actual than the generations that preceded them, millennials and Gen X and Boomers. Why do you think that? It's because of social media and cell phone use and because they're constantly being

dosed with comparisons to other people and being constantly shown in a mirror of why they don't, you know, live up to some ideal of what they don't have a 20,000 likes on their, you know, their Instagram posts or something like that. So they're constantly being shown an image of comparison that makes them feel sad or scared or left out in ways that's relatively new. They're the first generation to be raised with a cell phone, essentially. Just out of curiosity, if you were to start over and you were parenting today in 2024, would you give that child a cell phone before 18? No, I wouldn't because the research on this is now very clear, Jonathan Meheight, at NYU, Gene Twenge, out of of, you know, San Diego State. I mean, they've really shown some really convincing evidence that cell phone use for children is catastrophic. You know, when I go on my morning run in my neighborhood,

which has a couple intermediate schools around, these kids are just standing there on the phone, looking at the phone, they're not talking to each other. And so you have a whole generation of kids who are growing up who don't know how to socialize and don't know how to engage in her conflict avoidant because they haven't really engaged with enough people to have the conflict to know how to resolve of it. And, you know, and parents in some ways have kind of contributed to that because parents in the past four decades have been so worried about getting their children through the narrow bottleneck to a successful life that we've kind of over-parented. We've created these conditions where, you know, our children have to be so safe and so taken care of that they're not really, they don't learn how to

be kind of, learn how to experiment or have risks or see how much in life, you know, taking on risk is really good for you. I mean, my whole childhood was lived outside. I mean, my 43-year-old daughters was more that way, but my twin boys wasn't nearly as much, but certainly more than a lot of kids these days are. What do you tell a parent to do if their adult child says, well, my therapist says you're a narcissist. How should you respond? You shouldn't respond by saying, no, I'm not. Your therapist should be delicensed, which is usually the human and common response.

A better response is, oh, well, what does she or he think that's narcissistic about me? So get to what the behavior is because there's accountability if there's behavior. What is it about me that bugs you? What is it that you'd like me to change? Can we work on that together? Can you let me know the next time I do that if that's something that, you know, so if I'm not aware of it, that is something that we can work on? Can we work on it together in family therapy?

Rather than, am I a narcissist or am I not a narcissist? You're never going to win that argument. Is there a certain time frame in culture where this cutting out family members exploded or is it just been a slow-growing thing or has it always been about the same amount of people doing this since, you know, I don't know, 50 years ago? No, I think it's something that's, that's much more recent. So I think it began with the liberalization of divorce laws in the 1970s, because in my research and in my clinical practice, 70% of the adult children who are estranged, the parents were divorced from the other parent. So there's a bunch of different reasons why divorce can

cause an estranged. One reason is that, one parent can poison the child against the other parent, what we call parental early nation. Another reason is that the child may independently choose to ally with one parent over the other, even if the parents handle their divorce well. A third reason is that remarriage may bring in step-siblings, have siblings, stepmother, step-fathers that the child doesn't like or that they don't like the child. Finally, in a highly individualistic culture like ours, divorce can cause the child to see that parents more as individuals with her own kind of strengths and weaknesses

and less as a family unit that they're a part of. There was this section in your book where you talk about the estrangement that is usually caused by parents divorcing. And I thought this was interesting. You interviewed this family where the parents knew like the whole time they were married, we want to get divorced. But they kept waiting, waiting, waiting. They were like, we have to wait until our kids are grown up out of the house. The first two kids, they were like, let's wait until they're in college. And then they had this third child and they were like, okay, let's wait until she's out of college.

And the youngest one was the one who, you know, their entire childhood, we're saying, like, I wish you guys would get divorced. You guys are horrible together. And so they just thought, once she is grown up, she's definitely going to be the most accepting of the divorce. And what ended up happening, which you talk about in the book, is that this child grows up and she's the one that takes the divorce the hardest. She's the most upset. And then she's the one that ends up cutting off the parents. Explain that.

Why would a child be so adamant? And I hate you guys together. You're miserable. Just get divorced already. And then when it happens, they're upset and then cut the parents off. Well, because they don't really know when they're saying, I want you to divorce how the parents' life is going to change. I mean, sometimes parents become much more dependent on that adult child, or they start partnering

with somebody else that the adult child doesn't like. There was a recent study that said that men, for example, in what we're now calling gray divorces, I think those are divorces that are for people in their older than 50 or 60, which is the most common demographic of people who are divorcing, they're really at risk for their children not talking to them once they divorce. So we have a lot of people who are like, well, we'll just stay together until our kids are in college or out of the house and we'll be mature about it. But, you know, kids have their own ideas about what they want from their parents and what they want from their life. And they may not like who that parent marries or they may feel like that parent,

you know, became too dependent on them. And they, you know, a thing I hear a lot from adult daughters with their mothers is, you know, I feel like she doesn't, she needs her own life. I don't need her calling me all the time. You know, I feel like I'm, I become the replacement for my dad and I don't want to be that person. So there's a lot of ways that the divorce can can produce an estrangement. I hear this scenario a lot. A kid wants to cut off a parent and the parent is willing to work. And the parent says, okay, tell me what I should work on. What do I need to do? And the kid says, well, it's not my responsibility to tell you that. What does the parent do in that situation? I mean, it's maddening, I think. It's like if you're going to cut off a parent and break their heart, you should at least have the whatever to tell them why you're doing it. So again, in those situations, I encourage parents to write something where they say something like, you know, well, perhaps you're right, you know, but it is clear that I have significant blind spots that I don't know. Would you be willing to just write me or tell me more I promise to listen or read purely from the perspective of listening or learning and not in any way to defend myself if you're open to doing family therapy or whatever I would welcome that?

as well. But, you know, sometimes adult children won't let the parent reconcile because they don't really want to be reconciled. It may work better for them. They may make their marriage better because their spouse hates the person that they're married to. Or their therapist has convinced them that the parent is unworkable and they're a narcissist. I've seen a number of letters from adult children saying, well, my therapist says you're a narcissist, so I shouldn't do family therapy with you, which is crap because I'm working with the parent. I can say that they're not narcissist, but they're saying that, you know, who've never met the parent, the therapist is saying that they're narcissists.

Do you think that's malpractice? I do think it's malpractice. It's not punishable malpractice. That's the problem. Moral malpractice. Yeah, it is ethical. It is an moral ethical up malpractice. I agree.

I think that particularly if you're encouraging somebody to cut off a relationship with a parent, which we know is going to emiserate the life of that parent, you know, you better really have done your own due diligence as a therapist. For example, if I'm working with an adult child, I'll say, well, why don't I reach out to your mother or father and let's see what's possible here. Because I want, if I'm going to support an estrangement, I want to feel like I've done everything possible to potentially heal that relationship. Because I believe it's actually better for parents and adult children, except under the most dire extreme circumstances, actually be in contact with each other.

Let's talk about flashpoints, which is what you call estrangement based on hot topic social issues like religion, politics, sexuality. If that is why, the estrangement is happening? Is the relationship basically as good as doomed? I mean, I don't ever feel like a relationship is as good as doomed based on the content. It's more based on the individuals. So, for example, one of the flashpoints these days is gender identity. So, for example, you know, if a kid comes out as an adult and says that they're trans,

there's enormous support in the trans community to cut off the parent. if they basically, you know, have any anxiety or say, well, maybe you should do therapy, or, you know, have you thought about this? Let's take your time or let's investigate this before we consider therapy, you know, hormone blockers or something like that. So these communities can also be these sorts of agents of facilitating estrangement. So of the different groups, I think that the trans community, and I'm not saying this is a criticism of people who transition.

only that that community, from my perspective, isn't very sympathetic to what it's like to have a parent who's raised a girl, and then that girl's saying she wants to be a boy, or raised a boy, and that boy's saying they want to be a girl. I think in the same, there should be kind of a due diligence of therapist and the adult child as well to have some sympathy to that. I was talking to a gay young man recently who was talking about coming out. He said, you know, it took me years to come out to myself. So the idea that I should be able to tell my parent that I'm, you know, I'm gay and they're just going to immediately be okay with it. It's completely unrealistic.

I think that also brings up glaring differences in how the gay community works and the trans community because what you're right, there's room for understanding, letting people process with the gay community, like how that guy was telling you, like, it took me a long time to accept this. So like, I understand it in my parent time. Whereas the trans community, it's like, you have seven minutes to do this. And if you don't, you know, all hell breaks loose. It's like, especially, I mean, that's a, that's a term in the trans community, right, to talk about, like, dead naming, like, that person that you were, right?

It's dead. And so you're, if you are killing your old self, so to speak, doesn't that parent, at the very least, deserve time to grieve the loss of a child? Yes. And that's what you're asking them to do, but you're telling me, you can't even grieve it. It's, it's, you're jumping in all, no questions asked, nothing. And then, you know, also, nobody wants to talk. talk about that the expectation is that you have to accept what they're saying, face value, no questions asked, but then we're also seeing the detransition rate explode with kids

that maybe could have benefited from like a, let's ask some questions. Right. We've never seen any signs of this before. Right. You know, maybe that could have been avoided in this regret too. So there's a lot of nuance and stuff going on with that, which I'm sure you're really experiencing and you're in the Bay Area. So I'm sure you get a lot of this. I do. And I have a lot of loving decent parents in my practice who are more than willing to accept their child's transition to call them by the gender that they want or even the name that they want. But the child's like, no, you, you know, you failed me. You let me down when you, when I initially told you, that's proof of your transphobia. And it's just, it's just so wrong. So as a psychologist,

that response from that child, what does that tell you is going on with them? Like if the parent is like, okay, I'm sorry that I wasn't, you know, throwing confetti within the first two minutes, but like, I'm here now. I'm around. I just needed a second to process. And the kid still says, no, that wasn't good enough because you didn't throw me a party immediately. Like, what does that tell you about that kid? I mean, you know, it tells me that they have a lot of anxiety. And I think this more knee-jerk reaction that I'm, that I'm describing has to do with this idea, which has largely been disproven that if somebody says that they're trans and if they're not immediately supported, they're likely to kill themselves. That was, you know, there was a study done early on that's been largely disproven. But that kind of kept parents imprisoned with feeling like, well, I better support this and also made the therapeutic community and the medical community also feel like they had to kind of green light that. Now, now we know, based on the Cass report in the U.K., that that study has actually been proven false. And so in the U.K. and in other countries in Europe, for example, they're much more moving

towards kind of slow walking somebody who wants to transition in just the way that you were describing. Let's take our time. Let's consider it. Let's do some therapy. Let's make sure this is truly in your best interest. This is something that you've thought about. So to get back to your question about what's going on for that kid, I think it's a lot of anxiety.

A, and I think if you're going to have a new identity, you've been a, you know, a female all your life. Now you want to be a male. You know, you may not want to go to your parents' house and see pictures of you as a female or have any even memory of yourself as being that way. You're really kind of wanting to shed any memory of yourself as that person. So I think that can be a common aspect here. After a huge win this election season, it's time to celebrate. And what better way to do that than at America Fest? Hosted by Turning Point USA, this four-day conference is going to bring together the best conservative voices in Phoenix, Arizona, December 19 through 22nd,

with speakers like Ali Beth Stuckey, Callie Means, Charlie Kirk, Sage Steel, myself, and more. This is the place you want to be if you want to be part of the conservative movement's biggest party. Expect live podcasts, a massive exhibition hall, and a chance to mingle with thousands of fellow patriots. Get your tickets today at AMFest.com and use Alex Clark for 25% off general admission. That's AMFest.com with code Alex Clark for 25% off. See you there. I know we're all gearing up for those big family meals and nothing makes a holiday feel better than quality meat. But here's the problem.

Finding great meat in the grocery store, well, it's a nightmare, okay? You never know where it's coming from. And honestly, imported meat, just no, absolutely no. So this year, skip the store chaos, let good ranchers deliver 100% American meat straight to your door. Whether you're cooking for the family or looking for a perfect gift, good ranchers is the best option. Their meat is steakhouse quality, no antibiotics, hormones, or seed oils. It is grass fed, grain finished. It's all pre-trimmed and individually packaged, so there's zero waste, small farmers and ranchers in the Midwest. Plus, with my code Clark, you're going to get $25 off and a

free cut of meat every month for a year of your choice. You can choose from chicken, bacon, ground beef, or salmon. That is a whole year of awesome. Need a gift? Okay. Good ranchers. They've got these luxury gift boxes for everyone on your list, rib, eyes, burgers, even surf and turf. You cannot go wrong. A high quality steak, right? Head to good ranchers.com. Use code clark for $25 off in your free year of meat added to your box. That's goodrangers.com with code clark for a special gift in every box of your choice for a year and $25 off.

It's American meat delivered just in time for the holidays. Political estrangement, differing political views. Yeah. What are you seeing on that? I'm seeing a lot of estrangements on that. There was a survey done in 2016. Ipsos Reuters survey that showed that something like 16% of families became estranged around political differences. There was a Pew Research Report that showed that today political identity has become the single most powerful value indicator in terms of how we think about ourselves and how we think about somebody else.

So for example, I know it's crazy. So if I'm a Republican and I think somebody else is a Democrat, then I'm much more likely to be okay with violence of them, to feel contempt for them. them, even hatred of them, you know, similarly for Democrats, for Republicans. And that's also, you know, historically new. I mean, you know, 15 years ago surveys of what, you know, how would you feel if your kid married somebody from the opposite party, parents would say, well, you know, I, as long as they love each other, of course, I wish they'd marry somebody within my party, but they love each other. That's all that matters. Now parents are like, hell, no, I don't want to marry. It used to be agreed to disagree, right? The political discourse in this country.

Right. As a psychologist, What do you think changed? I mean, I think it began kind of with Newt Gingrich's, you know, deal for America back, I forget what year he was, where he was sort of one of the first politicians to begin to talk about the other political party in this very kind of contemptuous, angry, blaming language. And that turned out to be successful because negativity is very successful. I mean, you know, negative headlines sell much more likely.

They get much more posts or much more, become much more viral. So now negativity and this kind of, you know, negative headlines. tribalistic atomized perspective that we have in our political climate has become much more the norm tragically. So what should be the first step, whether you're the child or the parent, in reaching out to the other person when you're estranged over politics? Well, the way I think about it is you want to sort of understand that person's values. Like what is it about them, about those values that appeal to you? So for example, is it that you like the charisma of the leader or their economic plan or, you know, and to speak to that,

that you're never going to prove your family member wrong. So don't even try to do that. But you should try to empathize with them, try to see what it is that they find valuable in that, speak to that, show compassion for them. So, for example, my younger brother is a self-described conspiracy theorist. So we used to get into these big fights and he go, I'm going to send you these videos, you know,

that'll prove to you why you're wrong and why you're an idiot. And I'll say, well, I'm going to send you these articles, which will prove to you why you're wrong. You know, and now it's kind of like, you know, he'll start to go that I'm like, we're not going there and he'll laugh. You know, because he's my brother and I love him and we want to preserve our relationship. So, you know, it goes back to what you were saying earlier about we've kind of lost the capacity to agree to disagree. It's like you don't have to agree with your family about political differences. You know, they can have their own opinions. Then just don't talk about it.

You know, just talk about something else. What happens when it's a son-in-law or a daughter-in-law that's causing the estrangement and not even the biological child? Well, that's actually an incredibly common pathway to estrangement. That's what I call the cult of one. If it's a more troubled son-in-law or daughter-in-law who says, choose me or them, you can't have both. And I think that sons are much more vulnerable to that. Because for most men, their wives are their best friends, if not their only friends. Men are really easy to shame around their masculinity.

So if a wife or girlfriend said, you know, well, you're weak, you're a mama's boy. You wouldn't even protect me with your family. And I don't like how they treat me. Most men, at least a significant number of men, would be very vulnerable to that and kind of easy to manipulate around that. So I think there's a number of reasons why men are much more for vulnerable to that. Now, they're not the only ones who can become estranged. Men are also more, they're less likely to prioritize family in the same way. Wives and daughters are much what sociologists.

call kinkeepers. They're much more likely to care about family relationships and that kind of thing, whereas sons don't, they care, but they're not the ones who are tracking birthdays and holidays and sending cards and that kind of thing. But sometimes it's the parents who are the fault. You know, some parents are, you know, they're insensitive to the new son-in-law or daughter-in-law. They're critical to their son or daughter-daughter-law, you know, about who they're marrying and that kind of thing. And for that reason, things get off on the wrong foot and never can get healed. So how do you reach out to your biological child who's got a spouse being like, I hate your parents, they don't even care about you. I care about you more, you know.

Well, as with everything else, you have to start with a kind of an amends. And if you know that as the parent that you have kind of stepped in it or said something critical about the son-in-law or daughter-in-law, you have to make amends to them. And sometimes you're doing that for the audience of your adult child. So your adult child can say, well, you know, I think my parents are trying. That was a good letter. Otherwise, if it is a troubled son-in-law or daughter-in-law, they can just say, well, your parents are every even tried with me. So why should I let them see the kids and, you know, have time together with us as a family? Is there anything unique you can share about sibling estrangement? It's, I don't have any good statistics about it, but I think it's really common.

Okay. There is, in terms of the research, there's, it's really common if one sibling felt like they got a much rarer deal in the family. Maybe they felt like the black sheep in the family. If one of the siblings was really abusive to them growing up, um, those are, you. are two of the more common causes of sibling estrangement. And in terms of reconciliation, you know, the reason that parents usually have to do most of the hard work towards reconciliation is because they're willing to, and they're suffering more than the adult child. And as I was saying earlier, the adult child is kind of working for them.

It feels less stressed. They feel happier, et cetera. Whereas for the parent, it's not that way. So for a sibling reconciliation to occur, one sibling has to take the lead and be willing to kind of do the hard work of. taking responsibility, making amends, showing compassion, not blaming, not shaming, not defending. And those are, you know, those are the principles towards their reconciliation, but they're hard for people to do.

What does it mean, whether you're strange from a parent or a sibling or a daughter-in-law, if you feel no sadness, I don't miss that person. I don't even think about it. Does that mean there's something wrong with you? You know, I think that it's like for an adult child, if they're talking about cutting off a parent, unusual for them to say, yeah, well, I just do feel, I feel better. I feel less stressful with my parent out of my life or my sibling out of my life. But I always encourage people, not in a lecturing kind of a way, but I was encouraged them to look at the whole picture. Well, what will it be like

if you cut off your parents, you know, if then you're not, you're cutting off contact with their grandchildren or with their cousins. How's that going to be an impact to you? Is that going to hurt your standing in the family? So, so that's why I always encourage people to think, Beyond, is this just good for me and kind of where do I fit in the larger family system? You say in your book, therapy can only proceed as quickly as the least healthy member. What does that mean? If one person is really healthy and they're willing to do all the work and the other person isn't willing to, they can't take responsibility, they can't show empathy, they're not

really willing to work on themselves, then it's not going to go any faster than that person is able to go. So it means that the healthier person is going to have to accept that this is as fast as it's going to go. And it's often the position parents room, whether it's an issue of psychological health or not, they typically have to defer to the adult child's pacing. What should we know about situations of estrangement involving money? Well, money is not an uncommon pathway to estrangement, particularly if there's an inheritance because siblings often get divided around inheritances. I work with a lot of parents who say, well, my kid hasn't talked to me in five years. Why should I leave them in my will. And I never encourage a parent to cut out an adult child from a will.

You know, my theory is that in the same way that parents do the best that they can do, raising their adult children, I do think that the adult child is doing the best that they can do, even if they've cut off the parent. And there's a lot of reasons why an adult child might cut off a parent. And I just feel like cutting out an adult child from an inheritance is just such a punitive thing. And what I say to parents is, what do you want your legacy to be? Do you want your legacy to be that you punish your child from the grave permanently. You know, some people forgive their parents once the parent is gone, or they have regrets, or they have guilt, or sorrow about it.

You're kind of taking that away from them. And your legacy is going to be that you punished your child by denying them what you would have given them to them in real life. So I never encourage a parent to do that. How did this become your specialty? Why this type of therapy, estrangement? Yeah, well, I was married and divorced in my 20s, and as I mentioned earlier, my daughter in her 40s, who I'm now very close to, but there was a period of time in her early 20s where

she cut off contact with me, in large part due to my becoming remarried and having children from that marriage where, fortunately, we're still married. But, you know, her feeling displaced in some ways, not feeling especial, feeling like my children from this marriage got kind of a better deal than she got growing up. And so, you know, when she wanted to talk to me about it, I think I was more defensive to it. I wasn't kind of as compassionate or as empathetic. and the way that I, you know, learned is the only thing that really works when these kind of dynamics occur. And when this was happening to you, were you a therapist? I was a therapist and I was in therapy with a kind of a famous local therapist. But his advice was crappy the way that most therapists

who haven't been through it or don't know this area was. So you felt like as the person going through it, there was no therapist that was really giving you good help. Right, exactly. Oh, interesting. Yeah, I'm not blaming that therapist. I mean, you know, ideally he would have had experience in this. But, you know, I have to take responsibility for not being able to more intuitively know what my child needed. But, yeah, therapists, you know, therapists can either do a lot of good or they can do a lot of harm in this space. My coworker's husband, bless his heart, he's very comfortable in bed. Not like that. Let's just say the occasional gas is part of their nightly routine.

Used to drive her insane. But here's the thing. Now she recently doesn't even care. She tells him, go ahead, fart your little heart out. She remains unbothered. Why? Because her sheets are so freaking nice. I'm talking about cozy earth sheets, people. I've gotten everyone on these.

Seriously, they have changed the way that I sleep. The breathable bamboo sheet set is so soft and cool. You won't even notice what's going on next to you. Well, except for the odd sound. But the sheets, perfection. They're made from 100% viscos from bamboo. And honestly, they just get softer with every wash. Cozy Earth's bamboo pajamas, by the way, another game changer.

It sleeps several degrees cooler than cotton, which is great for anyone who wakes up in the middle of the night, feeling like they're in a sauna. Trust me, it's magic. Plus, Cozy Earth has a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty, so you cannot go wrong here. It's like a forever guarantee of comfy sleep. And if you get a post-purchase survey, you can tell them that you heard about them from me.

Start your New Year's resolution with better sleep. Wrap yourself in Cozy Earth. Visit CozyEarth.com slash Alex and use code. Alex for 40% off your order. That's cozyearth.com slash Alex code Alex for 40% off. I've got to tell you about the supercharge I've been adding to my daily routine. Grass-fed cowboy colostrum. Trust me, if you are all about health, glowing skin, and keeping your hair fuller and stronger, you're going to want to hear this. So here's the deal. Cowboy colostrum is the real MVP. It's harvested just four to six hours after the baby calves get

their share. Calf welfare always comes first. From grass-fed US-raised cows so you know it's pure and powerful. It is packed with immunoglobulence and growth hormones. Think gut healing, skin, rejuvenating, immune-boasting goodness. And it has this creamy, rich texture that makes it the perfect addition to smoothies, coffee, just a frothy drink in general. But what I really love about it is the skin and hair benefits. It is like giving your skin a reset thanks to those regenerative peptides and antioxidants that I am literally glowing. Okay. I mean, you can see me on YouTube right now. Plus, it promotes collagen production.

So you're fighting wrinkles while sipping something that tastes like a vanilla milkshake. There's also unflavored, too. Grass-fed cowboy colostrum is the ultimate clean girl secret. Super healthy, packed with nutrients, totally luxurious. It is whole and unaltered, so you're getting all that pure milky goodness in every scoop. Plus, cowboy colostrum isn't just good for gut health. It supports better energy, mental clarity, even athletic performance. Go to cowboy colostrum.com.

Use code Alex for 15%. off, this is my favorite colostrum on the market. That's cowboy colostrum.com with code Alex for 15% off. And the packaging, nothing is cuter. Do you ever see kids who they're fine with keeping a relationship with their parent, but they say, but you're not allowed to see your grandkids? It usually doesn't happen that way. I mean, occasionally it does.

But typically, if an adult child cuts off a parent from themselves, they also cut off contact with the grandchildren. Is that particularly cruel? I think it is particularly cruel, and I think it's particularly unnecessary, particularly if they were reasonable grandparents, which so many of these grandparents were. Many people in my practice who the kid lived with them during COVID, they were really involved with the grandchildren, and then something happened after COVID, if they don't like, and now they can't see the grandchildren who they basically took care of every day for, you know, maybe years. Maybe they were over at the house several times a week. and you know what I often hear from adult children is something like, well, if it's not good for me, it's not good for my children, which is often what we hear people say about marriage. Well, if I'm not happy in my marriage, then my kids aren't happy. It's like, well, no. In both cases, it depends on how you're handling it. Yes, if your parent is so, you know, out of control and an alcoholic and abusive around you and your grand and your, you know, children, then, yeah, I get it. But if it's just you're not happy with your parent with who they are and that's, you think that that alone is a good to be.

to cut off your parents from your grandchildren? No, kids really are benefited by having loving, decent, involved grandparents. And, you know, they may not share your values. They may not be as respectful of your boundaries as you wish that they were. And parents should be, and grandparents certainly should be, but it's not a good reason to end such a precious, important relationship. So, for example, I have a grandson who I'm very close to. Fortunately, my daughter had him after, you know, we had reconciled. But if she had cut out contact with him, if he had already been born, that would have been incredibly heartbreaking to me. My audience is really familiar with attachment between parent and child. We've done a lot of work on that. I've had Erica Komizar on the podcast.

It's one of my most popular episodes. So we're familiar with that. Is there also such a thing as attachment between a grandparent and a grandchild that people should know about? Oh, yeah. The attachment between a grandparent and a grandchild is really profound. I mean, if we're just looking at it from the grandparents' perspective, a lot of grandparents say to me, you know, I could kind of live with my stranger from my adult child. I can't live with not having relationship with my grandchild that I was very close to. It is such a profound loss because the relationship between a grandparent and a grandchild is based on this kind of unique position of vulnerability and innocence. And it also allows the grandparent to repair the ways that they may not have been as good as

parents. You know, they can be more loving and dedicated and conscientious and educated with their grandchildren than they might have been able to have been with their own children. So there's the place where that can actually be therapeutic for everybody involved. So maybe that's why these kids are cutting off the grandkids is because they're hurt and jealous by that. They're like, oh, I see you showing up for my kid in a ways that I always wish you would have showed up for me. And so they're just angry and then keeping the grandchild away. I think that can certainly happen. And I think that people who are threatened by the child's, they see how much the child adores the grandparent. And if they have more insecurity about themselves from an attachment perspective, they may feel like, oh, I don't get that from my kid.

You know, when you walk in the door, it's like, oh, Grammy, Grammy. You know, I don't get that when I walk in the door. So, no, I think the attachment between a grandchild and a grandparent is profound. And so many of adult children here, I'm going to be a little bit critical, talk about, oh, you know, you traumatized me. it's kind of like, well, you're traumatizing the grandparent by cutting off contact with your grandchildren, and you're traumatizing your parent with cutting out contact with, you know, ending your relationship with them. So you don't get to say that the buck stops here. So many adult children say, well, the buck stops here. I'm not going to continue the, you know,

the traumatic cycle that, you know, that I was raised in. So I'm ending it here. But like, no, actually, you're not ending it here. If you're traumatizing your parent by cutting off contact with you and your grandchildren, you're actually not ending it here. You're perpetuating it. What do you say to your patient? I imagine this happens. That's like, well, the reason I just cannot deal with it anymore, my kid is not going to see their grandparent is because we have vastly different ideas on diet, screen time, you know, and I, what do you want me to do, Dr. Coleman? I'm just supposed to abandon all my values at the door and, you know, everything I've worked towards as a parent every time I drop them off. Well, I think that, you know, I think that, that parents,

have to be sensitive, that the grandparents have to be sensitive to the adult child's limits and boundaries. And they can't just say, oh, you're being too sensitive, you know, just let me be a grandparent. I mean, you know, the parent gets to say how they want to raise the grandchildren, not the grandparent. And so, you know, I think that, again, it's a matter of doing due diligence that I think that parents should give their own parents a lot of runway if they want to set limits about it and say, look, I get that you didn't, you know, raise us that way, or you don't think this is a big deal. We do. This is how we want, you know, you to be around our kids. So, you know, only so much screen time, only so much sugar or whatever. We don't really like any swear. Whatever it is,

you know, and then you sort of have to escalate it a little bit if they're really just not paying attention to it. What about the grandparents that are completely blocked from their grandkids' lives? Like, they are zero contact going on. How do you initiate that? I mean, again, it's you have to write. The only way to do it is, I mean, sometimes parents are blocked from everything. They're blocked from social media. They're blocked from cell phone. They can't text. They can't reach them on Facebook, which is usually more the parent, the adult, older groups method of social media. And so there aren't always ways for them to reach them. I don't encourage them to hire a PI unless they just want to make sure if their kids alive.

Oh my gosh. Yeah, but some people have done that. But you shouldn't do that because then your kids are going to accuse you of stalking them. So often those parents have to kind of kind of, if they don't have any way to reach them, they don't even have an address. And in some cases, the adult child moves and doesn't give them an address, you know, parents have to grieve and accept that their child for now just isn't able and willing to be around them. But the other tragic thing is that a lot of kids parents don't even find out that they're grandparents until they hear about it from somebody else. You know, they run into somebody at the grocery store. And that person says, oh, congratulations, I hear you're a grandmother. And so what are the coping

mechanisms for something like that. The coping methods are often a matter of radical acceptance because, you know, we have a saying pain plus struggle, equal suffering. The more that we sort of try to fight against the pain by saying, this is intolerable, you know, there's another saying that I think is useful here, which is anxiety is living in the future, depression is living in the past, and joy and resilience comes from living in the present. I think it comes from mindfulness, doesn't it? So the idea in both is that if you're living in the future as an estranged parent, you're thinking, I can't live like this. What if I never see my child again? What if I never see my grandchildren again? This is intolerable. If you're living in the past, you're thinking,

you know, I shouldn't have done that. I shouldn't have said that. If only I hadn't done that, if you're living in the present, you're thinking, yeah, this is really painful. This sucks. I feel really sad. And you're just tracking it, but you're not fighting against it. It's actually fighting that fighting against it. There's a saying by Marshall Linahan, who developed Dialectical Behavior Therapy, where she says that the pathway out of hell is through misery. The more you fight your misery, the more you stay in hell. What she means by that is that, you know, you have to just sort of accept, this is where I am right now. Right now, yeah, I'm heartbroken. I'm sad. I'm depressed. But I don't want to think too much about this is

intolerable. I don't want to think too much in more self-critical kind of a way. What are the most common beliefs that interfere with making amends? Yeah. The first one is I didn't do anything wrong. That's a really common one. Another is that It's not my fault. It's somebody else's fault. Blaming the child. Blaming somebody else. Those are, it makes me feel too bad about myself,

particularly somebody who has traumatized themselves as a child, may find accepting responsibility, facing the ways that they hurt or even traumatize their child so intolerable. They can't actually write it down and get it on paper. It's just such a painful, unacceptable feeling, a worry that it'll be used against them by the child or by somebody else. I think those are the most common things. that interfere with it. How long should you try until giving up? You know, I think that you should

write one really good amends letter in the way that I talk about in my book and in my practice, which are not easy to do because it does require taking so much responsibility and not blaming anybody else and not defending and explaining. So write one really good one. And then six to eight weeks later, if you hear nothing, write another one where you say, just checking in to see if you've had a chance to review my letter. I'm sure there are things that I left out that would have been good to have included, but I just mostly wanted to see if it was possible to get a dialogue started with you, just to let you know that I'm open to doing therapy if you would like to do that, if the things you want me to work on in my own therapy, or if you'd like to tell me more about

what you feel upset about, I promise to read it or listen purely to listen and not defend myself. But then if you get nothing back at that point, assuming your kid's an adult, I wouldn't, you know, with a minor, I would continue to reach out for, you know, until they're not a minor, basically. But, you know, we're not really even grown into our brains until we're 26. So, and, you know, for mothers, 80% of these resolve for dads is closer to 69 to 70%. So, you know, the majority of them do eventually, do eventually resolve. Let's say, you know, the miraculous happens. It's a Christmas miracle because we're in the holidays. And your, your child writes back or your parent writes back and they say, okay, I agree to talk. Then it's like, oh,

That's what you were asking. That's what you were hoping would happen. But then now what? And it does happen. I get letters every day from parents say, I did write the letter. My adult child is willing to do therapy with me or to see me. You know, what I often tell parents is this does not mean that you get to go back to the way things used to be. It's still going to be on your adult child's terms. You still have to be respectful of their boundaries. You still have to show interest in why they needed to a stranger in the first place because that may still be alive. So you can't just kind of rushing in there. And also, you know, it may be fragile for a while.

A lot of parents say, well, I feel like I'm walking on eggshells. I'm like, yeah, you are walking on eggshells. Your kid just put you through a major trauma, and it would be dumb of you to just kind of like act like everything's back to normal. If somebody who has strangers a parent once can certainly do it again. There are people who would go, you know, who say, well, I would never estranged my parent. And a lot of people are like that. But somebody who would do it once may well do it again.

And that often happens. What was the hardest circumstance for an estrangement that you personally as a therapist has had to help? Well, they all kind of tear me up because the parents are so heartbroken. It's like working on a cancer, you know, pediatric cancer work because they were so upset. I think that the most challenging ones are where the parent is estranged from all of the kids. Like some parents come in and they're estranged from like four, you know, four out of four kids. And they, you know, and each one is different and each one might require. Oh, geez.

And you have to go through this process, the letter of amends to each individual kid. But typically, yeah. And you also have to really understand each person's reasons because they're not necessarily all going to be the same. So in that case, and you're saying sometimes this is the problem is really with the kid. It's not the parent, but the parent has to play the part. But if all of your kids are all cutting you out, typically then is there like a good reason for why there's this estrangement happening between all the kids and the parent? I mean, there may well be. I mean, sometimes siblings form their own kind of cabal and, you know, ally with each other. But, but yeah, it may well be that if all your kids aren't talking to you, then it may be that you're doing something really, you know, really wrong that you have to really take responsibility for it. How long do reconciliations typically take? Two to four years, basically, something like that.

Okay. If your child grows up to reject you and they want no relationship with you, does that mean that you're unlawful? lovable? What's a really good question? It feels that way as the parent. There was some research now about what they're calling mattering, which is such a funny term, but it's basically like we need to feel like we matter to our children or to our siblings or to our friends. And nothing can make you feel like you matter at least than to feel like you don't matter to your own child or grandchild. I mean, I was lucky because when I, you know, my daughter was estranged from me, I had a very close relationship with my parents and they were alive at the time. So I could feel sort of supported by them.

And I had a good marriage with my wife and she could support me. But if I had been like at that point a single parent and my kid had cut me off and I had a traumatic childhood where I grew up feeling unloved and unlovable, it would have been five, you know, five degrees, you know, 50 degrees even more painful and alienating than it was because, you know, I could feel like, well, at least I matter to some people in my life. And so for that person listening who, they feel that way. They feel like, why does this keep happening to me? It happened to me as a kid. Now my own kids are doing it to me. Maybe like I don't matter. What would you say? Well, I would say that it's important

to surround yourself with people who can give you a better reflection of yourself. And if you have nobody in your life and some people these days have no one in their lives, then volunteer. You know, find some way to have a kind of a community where you're giving something back. You know, we live in this highly individualistic society, which makes us feel like the most important, thing is our own personal happiness, but really the secret to happiness is actually our ability to give to other people and be in relationship to other people. So, you know, you may have to sort of decouple yourself from the mirror that your child is holding up to you, but it's a very powerful mirror that a child can hold up to a parent, particularly a parent who already feels

completely flawed and unlovable. So they have to work harder, basically. If you had one remedy to heal a sick culture, and that could be physically, emotionally, or spiritually, what would remedy be? It would be to work on compassion and forgiveness and that to know that we are all inherently flawed, that people do do the best that they can do even when they make terrible mistakes and that the more we can be compassionate and empathic and forgiving, the better our society would be. Are you accepting new patients? Yes, but I'm not doing therapy anymore. I'm only doing like one to two session consultations and people can find me on my website. Okay, your website. And then tell us again the name of your book.

It's Rules of Estrangement, Why Adult Children Cut Ties and How to Heal the Conflict. And you can get that anywhere. Books are sold. Thank you so much, Dr. Coleman for coming on Culture Apothecary. Thank you. It was a great interview. It's lovely to meet you. Between you and I, usually when I have any type of doctor on the show, those episodes are very, very long, usually pushing the two-hour mark because doctors are just, you know, super smart. They have a lot to say. They're experts in their subject. And I told Dr. Coleman, after this interview, I said, you are zippy. Like, I thought I had a lot of questions and you were so concise and it was easy to understand and you got through those so quickly. It was just such an easy listening episode for a subject that can be probably really dense

and, you know, kind of an emotional subject matter. So I really thoroughly enjoyed this interview. And the book, like I said, is phenomenal. So I really hope that you read it or, you know, buy it for a friend who you know is struggling with this issue maybe as a Christmas gift because I really think that it could help a lot of families. Next week, wow, do I have a week for you, okay? I have purposefully thought a lot about this month of interviews and I wanted to sprinkle in some that I thought would be particularly helpful for those navigating family members with different views over the holiday season. This episode

was obviously one. And then next week, I am tackling two of the most controversial topics when it comes to child-rearing vaccines, holistic medicine, and even autism. Next week, we are going to be talking to two different pediatricians, both in the state of California, actually, who are experts on these subjects. And it is going to be mind-blowing. Don't know if these episodes can actually go on YouTube. So make sure you are subscribed on Spotify, where you can watch video now at Culture Apothecary, also my Twitter at Yo, Alex Rapps with a Z.

Every Monday and Thursday, new episodes drop at 6 p.m. Pacific, 9 p.m. Eastern, where we're on a mission to Healasic culture, physically, mentally, and spiritually. I'm Alex Clark, and this is Culture Apothecary.