Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark - "Why Is No One Inviting Me Over?” - Making Friends As Adults With Sally Clarkson

Episode Date: May 19, 2023

Our favorite homemaker is back! Sally Clarkson joins Alex Clark to discuss all things friendship: How to make friends as an adult, how to break up with friends, and even how to host friends if you’re bedridden or battling chronic illness. Alex asks Sally a bunch of listener questions submitted by YOU on everything from marriage to hosting overnight guests! Then Sally talks about her latest must-read book, ‘Teatime Discipleship.’Find Sally and get your copy of Teatime Discipleship HERE!Receive...

Today's guest believes that the profound work of a woman is to bring civility and order out of chaos, to bring beauty and intelligence and excellence to her community, and that we need to turn our homes into a life-giving haven for all who enter. This is our third episode in our May is for the Mom series this month, and this will actually be my guest's second time on the spillover. Every episode this month is for women, parenting, God's design for us, homemaking and even etiquette are what you can look forward to. And this time, I have questions for my guest on the best ways to make friends as an adult, how to know when to break up with friends,

and questions submitted by cute servatives on everything from beating the odds and sustaining a spirit-filled marriage to how you can use your home to bless others, even when you're chronically ill or bedridden. She's authored more than two dozen books, including a brand new coffee table book called Tea Time Discipleship. It's full of beautiful pictures and recipes and how-toes so we can feel encouraged and capable enough to minister God's love to others over a cup of tea. It couldn't be more perfect for this show. We are talking friendship in more. Please welcome author Sally Clarkson to The Spillover. The last time we spoke, Sally, we talked about your book, The Life Giving Home.

Now you have a brand new book that has beautiful pictures and journal prompts and even some recipes. which you called tea time discipleship, which I have next to me. What about this book do you think that fans of the life giving home will really enjoy? Well, people have asked me forever to do a book and had recipes that had a peek into my home that had some, you know, just lots of beautiful things. And I just can't believe it. My publisher came to my house and took a thousand pictures. And we had so much fun for several days. And so I think that people will love, even the beginning. Can I reach you at the beginning? Please. It's like the life-giving home, but it says, our home and table can be a sanctuary for life, a holding place for all of our ideals, an atmosphere of love and energy that engages dreams and inspiration.

The profound work of a woman is to bring civility and order out of chaos, to bring beauty, intelligence, and excellence to her community, and to subdue her kingdom of home into a life-giving home. So it has a lot of the same spirit, but it's also visual. And I also have a reason I wrote it, which I will eventually tell you about. No, tell us now. Tell us. Well, I think that as I look at just general all of the values that we have in culture, we have these to-do lists and these checklists and all of these different things, but I think sometimes people think that taking time for yourself, 15 minutes a day is frivolous.

You know, well, I just didn't get to it today. But when I talk about the heart and the soul and mind of a person, you can't grow intellectually without reading. You can't really grow in your faith without spending one brick a day to build a kingdom of faith. You really can't have peace in your heart if you aren't taking time to center all of the pressures and issues. So I wanted to write a book to say to all of my friends, if you take time, 15 minutes a day for yourself to bring beauty, civility, to take a breath, to put away all the stresses, to grow intellectually, spiritually, you will be a different person because all kingdoms were built one brick at a time. And if you don't have on your checklist a way

that the garden of your soul, so to speak, is going to grow, it will not grow. It will dry up. It has to be watered every day in order for it to flourish well. So it's really getting to the heart of femininity or womanhood or humanhood humanity, you have to invest in yourself if you're giving out on a constant basis or else you will become depleted and dry. One of the themes that you dive into in this book, which I was really happy to see was friendship. And you talk about how you really struggled with loneliness when you first became a mom. You long for these deep friendships with other adult women, but you really had trouble

finding them. And you kind of felt like your family, the Clarksons, were the ones to reach out and host people and invite people over. But nobody was really reciprocating and doing that for you guys. How did you eventually find those deep friendships as a mother? I had been overseas working with students and admissions and with adults for many years when I got married and when I finally had my first child. But I was particularly lonely then because, you know, it's a whole new game. and you have a whole new set of ideals and standards and schedule. But I think I just learned to use what I had done before. I would put out an announcement on Facebook or if I wasn't part of some kind of a fun social group. I would say, does anyone want to come to my house and be friends and have a cup of tea or whatever? And I just learned that there are a lot of people out there who really want friendship, but they're overwhelmed already with their lives and think, I can't add one more thing.

And again, I knew that friendship, community, support systems, someone to say, you too, me too, is essential to our long-term well-being. If we ever find ourselves in a place where we're very depressed or we have a terrible illness or a car crash or whatever, sadness, and we don't have someone to help carry the load, we're going to find ourselves just depleted and empty without any place. to go. So I just realized many years ago I needed to be the one who hit the ball and hope that somebody would hit it back. So you were the initiator and I know so many women, including myself, we want someone to initiate friendship with us. And so we can get stuck in this cycle of loneliness and sitting around and hoping that someone will ask us to get together. But you talked about how actually Jesus did the complete opposite of that. So could you talk about that? Well, I think, I had another quote that I was just reading this morning.

I'm working in another project. But I think that as I saw that he came to us while we weren't even looking for him, he washed feet, he took children in his arms, he served meals. He reached out. And then he said, in the same way that I've loved you, you go out and love other people. And so I would have my quiet time and I would think, you know what? if I love with my words, then I am loving with the love of Jesus. If I make just one cup of tea, it's kind of like when he said, if you give just one cup of water, you know, it matters. And so I would just

watch his pattern of friendship, community building, and so on. And that has been my pattern for my whole life. It's why I do what I do today. I just, I am so glad. It's like I have sunshine in my heart, the more I embrace and really understand his ways. Why is it so important for adults to overlook personality characteristics that we find irritating in potential friends? Well, I do think that a part of a part of reaching out, starting groups, is you are going to find humanity there. There are going to be people that you need to rig the book boundaries. There are going to be people that you need to say they were that way before I ever got to them. I didn't make them be whatever, hateful or mean or demanding.

And so there are ways in which we do, it's a part of growing and maturity. We are called to love people, but they don't need to be, we don't have to take on every single person's life that we meet. But what I found is that my best friends, and you probably have this too, when you work with a group of friends on projects or when you do a conference or when you do a conference or when you, have a Christmas party. We would always have a Christmas tea and then a summertime where we invited all the fathers, all the husbands to our group, to our mom's group. I had other single women group too. But I think that there's a part of seasoning. The older you get, the more you realize, I am a flawed person. I am actually a peaker. Yes. And the more the older you get, the more you are humbled and the more compassion you have for people. I think when you're busy,

And too wrapped up in your own life, it's harder to have compassion on people. Can I say something that might sound mean, but I don't mean it in a mean way. Just helpful advice, okay? The other night when I was out, this guy was talking to my friends and I, and we asked him to guess how old we all were. And when he got to me, he was like, hmm, well, you don't have any wrinkles around your eyes at all. So I'm going to say 25. I think I had an out-of-body experience because I'm 30.

And most girls my age I know are starting to get fine lines and wrinkles around their eyes. Now, one girl I know has them particularly bad. But you know what I've been doing religiously since my mid-20s? Strategic small amounts of Botox and key areas like around the eyes. I'm just going to be honest with you. Everybody like flips out when I say that. It's like, well, I could just gate keep it. But no, I'm telling you.

So stop yelling at me. Also, I have always done a rigorous skincare routine, including eye cream since I was about 18. Now, this combo, I believe, has really worked in my favor. And I use Nimi Skin Care, which is a conservative-owned skincare brand that won't ever support woke initiatives. They believe in femininity, family, faith, and freedom, and they are made in the USA. Retinal is the key ingredient in their hydrating moisturizer. You need it today.

Try Nimi at NemeSkincare.com with code Alex Clark for 10% off. That's N-I-M-I-Skincare.com with code Alex Clark for. 10% off, and I bet you'll start getting the same compliments. Click the link in the description to try. Let's say that we do it. Okay, we're super brave. We invite this non-believer friend over for tea. They accepted. Now they're sitting right next to us. How do you even just casually start talking about Jesus in a natural, non-awkward way with someone that you've invited over to your home? Okay, so I have this barista in Oxford where I live, and I thought, you know what? I've seen them every day for a year, they're my favorite person because they make my favorite coffee. And so I said,

would you like to come to my house sometime? I just would love to get to know you. And this person came and I said, tell me your story. You know, you just ask questions that get to the heart. I said, I would love to know, where do you grow up? What was your family like? You know, tell me some of, you know, the highlights. And when they would tell me, I would respond. You know, we hit the ball back. And I would say, oh, I said, I never knew that. Oh, I'm so sorry that happened. Oh, my goodness. What an incredible life you lived. Whatever it is. You respond with sympathy as you would to someone in your family or a child or a friend or whatever. And this wonderful person said to me, do you know in my whole life no one has ever once invited me over for a cup of tea or for anything for that matter? I've just been alone for many years. And this is the high light of my whole wife. I couldn't believe it. I thought, oh my goodness, had I known this, you know, I would have made 30 minutes for her ahead of time, I mean, another time. But I think there are so many people who would love to be invited in. And it's just a matter of, you know,

sometimes it works, most of the time it works when you really care about someone, when you look them in the eye, when you prepare for them, when you say, I'm so glad you came today. And I mean, that's what you and I are waiting for, right? Absolutely. Yes. You can come to my house. I will spoil you. Well, and you are such a good listener.

And just your ability, what you're describing, exactly how to respond and react when somebody's telling you their story and things like that to make them feel cherished and loved and heard. What are some ways that you can train yourself to be a good listener and ask really good questions? I think that there are so many great articles, books. You know, you can Google and find out how to be a good friend. But I think that being a really good friend, it starts with your heart. And I decided, I was writing in my journal one day, and I decided that one of my goals was going to be to leave a bit of God's love, a bit of my love, with every person I ever met. And of course, I'm not 100% of that. But, um, When I go someplace and my children always roll their eyes and laugh at me, I'll say, oh, I love your watcher. Oh, you make the best cup of coffee I've ever seen.

I go to a lot of coffee shops. And I only make tea at home because I can only make it right. That's how I feel with my ice chai tea latte. Isn't that funny? You kind of know what's right. And it's always weak when I go places. But anyway, I just started making it a habit to look in their eyes, to look at them in context. and not to judge them if they were different than me.

To really, when Jesus said, if I have washed your feet, so you need to do to others. And so I would just look for opportunities to kind of get into the story. And I know that most people, not everyone, there are some evil people in the world, but most people long for someone to invest time, care, affirming words in their lives. And, you know, if somebody doesn't respond, it's kind of, you don't worry about it. You shake the dust off your feet and weave on. But I do feel like wherever I go, I have just been so blessed to have a lot of people that I was able to bring into just some small perimeters in my life to love them. And I do think it becomes a habit.

The more you do it, I had a group of leaders at my house a few years ago that I was training and some leaders. skills. And several of the women said, oh, I would never talk to my neighbor. And I thought, okay, let's come up with 10 questions. You know, you could ask or say, you know, like, you have the cutest dog in the world. Everybody wants someone to admire their dog. And their baby. And their babies. Maybe not their husband. Yeah. And so if you can even just write down in a journal, these are five questions. I can go to. Maybe I should write a book on friendship. Maybe you and I should write a book on friendship together. Oh, gosh. Well, I would for sure read it if you wrote it. I mean, this is one of the biggest things I think that I get asked to do episodes on, and I haven't really gone into it that much.

I had my very best friend on, and so we kind of talked about our friendship. But as far as giving advice on how is an adult, how is a stay-at-home mom? Am I supposed to meet new people? I've had lots of questions about that. Well, I would always do like, right? I have this Bible study that I love in Oxford. We've been together now for three years, and really people didn't know one another to begin with. I just literally put out on Facebook, does anyone want to come together for a meal or, you know, to make friendship, whatever. I did something very general. And most of them didn't know each other to begin with.

And they came, and, you know, I said, I'm so glad you're here. Why don't we read a book together? And I always had some kind of food. and now they've become friends, their children have become friends. They go to all these wonderful places together. I'm going to the museum next week. Who wants to come? You know, we're going to walk in the pathway and go have fish and chips.

Who wants to come? And so because by God's grace, I've learned how to reach out and to love because I feel so blessed in my life. then all of these women have not only become my friends, but they've become each other's friends. Yeah. And they've invited other people in. And so to begin with, the first time when I had the meeting, they were like this. Yeah, everybody's very nervous and closed off.

Yeah. And I just, you know, I think having food and saying, I'm so glad you're here. And this is such a small room. Thank you for sitting on the floor or whatever it was. And then I just share a little bit of my story. And I said, I would love to know some of your stories. So, yeah, what are your ice breakers when you're getting a group of women that don't know each other together trying to start friendships? What are some fun things that you throw out that you're like, this is like always in my bag of tricks?

Well, it's easy in Oxford because no one is from there. You can say, where are you from? What brought you here? How long have you been here? Oh, really? I don't know where that is. That's where my favorite cafe is. So you just have people share.

And it's gotten to the point now where I have to limit it. We have what we call a minro. A mentor is a minute intro. Ooh. So we'll say, say everything you can possibly let us know about yourself in one minute. And of course, some people, you know, give almost no knowledge. Well, you know, I've lived here. Right. And what do you do with those women?

That is really hard for them to open up. I say, that's not enough. I want to know something really personal. What's the most personal thing? And then everybody laughs. You know, but it's just, I think if you get old enough, I'm almost 70, and I don't care anymore. I don't care what people think anymore. But it is fun. I've done this for years, and I believe that most of the people I ever meet. I'm sure that I have offended people along the way. I've gotten letters.

Really? Magical things happen in girls' bathrooms, especially after 10 p.m. Whether it's a late night dinner or you're out for drinks at that time, girls are so friendly. They're bonding. They're sharing secrets. They're hyping up each other's outfits. It's. It's just a secret world in language that men can never and should never understand, which is why Garnu makes feminine products for girls only. A lot of organic tampons come with crappy cardboard applicators, and they're still owned by woke companies, not Garno.

100% organic cotton tampons with BPA-free plastic applicators. They're made without dyes, fragrances, chlorines, no titanium dioxide either. They are conservative-owned and sell menstrual cups, too, if that's your vibe. Also, every purchase fights human trafficking in Nepal. Join the girls-only club by going to garnoo.com slash spillover with code spillover for 15% off your first month of organic tampons when you subscribe exclusively for spillover listeners. The code can be used for one-time purchases as well, not just subscriptions. G-A-R-N-U-U-com slash spillover with code spillover. over for 15% off or click the link in the show notes.

What are some of the things that people write letters? You mean based on your books or people that you've met in real life? Oh, I think sometimes what I've always told my children that if you stand up in front of an audience, you become an easy target. Yeah. So do I know that? Yeah. So there are people, you know, part of learning how to deal with all of this, there are people

who may get irritated by what you believe. or what you say or what you do or the color of shirt you have on. It doesn't really matter. But in general, I have found people to be generous, to be kind, to laugh at my mistakes. You know, I was telling someone that sometimes by being humble, it's easier to open a heart. And I had this group at my house here in Colorado, where I am right now. And this woman came out with a really big smile on her face. I just tell the story to someone else. And I said, oh, you seem like you're giggling about something. And she said, I just couldn't believe it.

Sally Clarkson has a cracked toilet seat. And I thought, oh, well, yes, I do. I've got Boysen House and somebody hit it, you know, a shelf dropped down on it. But she said, well, I've got one too. And I realized we feel more at ease when we feel like we're not talking to a perfect person. Yes, absolutely. Oh, my gosh. Have you ever had to have a friend breakup, though, like where you knew or they knew that this friendship wasn't going to work for whatever reason, it became toxic? And then how did you handle the confrontation with that or the grief that came with that loss? I think that I've learned over the years. I read about this in one of my last books. I don't remember which one, but I think that that's going to happen inevitably. We are in a broken world. A lot of people have never been trained. in any way to give grace or love.

And one thing I did learn from a very toxic breakup that just really crushed me is I have this mental file drawer in heaven. And I learned to put some of what I was feeling. I wrote it down in the journal, put it in the file drawer of heaven and close it because it really poisons you to rehearse, she said this, and we did that. And that wasn't fair. but it poisons you whatever you water is going to grow. And so I did learn over the years because it's happened to numerous times not to give

a toxic situation power in my life, whether I need to go to a counselor or a friend or just where I just need to give it up because the more you think about something hateful, the more bitter you become. So that's one thing I learned. And, you know, another thing I learned was just because, because I'm in the public eye a lot and I have lots of people in my life is I became more seasoned at looking at maybe principles or things that people showed that weren't healthy. There's a great book called, what is it, safe people that, and it just lists 10 different factors about people that maybe aren't safe. And then the third thing I had to realize, because I'm a feeler and I love people and I take things on.

is that oftentimes people were broken before I ever got to them. I did not make them broken. It is not my responsibility that they're broken. I can be as gracious as I possibly can be because I want to be gracious. I don't have to take them on, but everything in the world is not my fault. And I think that when I learned about toxic people, I would, you know, give grace, love, reach out. But it was helpful for me to say, I think that's a you problem.

That's not something that I created or would ever create. And that's in a very specific kind of situation. But it helped me to not be self-critical, like, oh, everything is my fault. It helped me to learn how to say, no, I really love the Lord. I'm going to pray for that person. But I don't need to take the baggage of everything. myself, especially because there will be people that are difficult to get along with that maybe aren't at the inner circle of your life. Does that make sense? Absolutely. And now I'm totally

going to be filing away all of these things in my file drawer for heaven. I love that. I love that. You know, it just doesn't help to carry it. Yes. So since we, since our last interview, I asked our listeners, hey, I got to ask all of my questions for Sally the first time, but this time I really want you to submit questions. And man, I got some good ones, and I got some ones that really put my problems in perspective. So let's go through some of these. One listener wrote in with a question saying, I have social anxiety, but I would love to invite random people over to get to know them better. How do I push through?

You know, I think that one of the things, and I actually am writing this in another book, but I think that when we understand that we have capacity, and we need to stretch our capacity a little bit at a time. There used to be things that absolutely made me fearful. You know, I would get anxious. I would think, oh, who am I to speak to these people? And once I did it a whole bunch of times, then I got over my anxiety. I had to grow in my capacity.

But the other thing is also that we have agency. And agency is that we have the ability to little by little to grow forward in the relational muscle, spiritual muscle, whatever. But I think that sometimes when you focus on having compassion or sympathy for people and really focus in on that instead of how am I doing or how am I performing, it can help change your attitude. But the other thing I want to say is we all have personalities. And it is no perfect personality. And maybe being, reaching out socially would be hard for you, but you could make someone a plate of cookies and drop it by with a note and say I'm praying for you. Yes, and I always tell people, it just starts with

high. All you have to do is just say hello, whether that's a neighbor, somebody that's living on your apartment complex floor, somebody at work, just say hi the first time. Don't put any pressure on yourself to say anything else. The next time, maybe high and a compliment. I love your hair today. I love your shirt today. The next time, say, very good advice. So I always try to tell them to start. are in increments. You don't have to put the pressure on you. Like, I need to invite them over to my home, you know, the very first time that I ever talked to them, too. Right. No, they just need to see that when they see you and pass you in the street, it's really fun to see you because you care about them. Yes. So another listener says she's chronically ill and even bedridden a lot of the times. And so she

feels called to invite people over as well. But she struggles, not because she doesn't want to or social anxiety, but because her home is messy due to her not being able to clean a lot. What would you say to that woman? I was just talking with a friend about that. I actually, many, many years ago when I was a single woman living in Vienna, I was kind of lonely and I couldn't speak the German language and I didn't know what to do. And this woman who had three children, maybe four, seemed like a thousand to me. And she invited me over. She said, I bet you're kind of lonely.

And so when I went in, there were toys everywhere. There were little cookies here and there. There were all sorts of stuff. And she went, you know, my house isn't perfect, but I thought, maybe we can be friends. And she took her arm and she literally knocked everything from the table in front of us on the floor. And then she put a couple of cups of tea there. And she went, now we can have a civilized moment. I love her already.

I always remembered that because I did need someone. I mean, I just longed for someone to notice me because I felt so invisible in Austria. And I've never forgotten that. Just now we can have a civilized moment. And I think that, especially if you are bedridden, oh, people are sympathetic. They just want to come and help you or be with you or have a friend. And I think that sometimes those of us who have had very difficult health situations or very difficult life situations, we're more compassionate usually for people and people really respond to your

great compassion. Who you are is exactly who you're supposed to be in the scheme of things. And right where you are is the place you can bring lighting a candle in the darkness. I'm just so proud of you that you care to invite people. Don't worry about the messes. Everyone has messes. Yes. Some people may not know this, but you had your youngest child when you were 42. Is that right? That's right. What blessings came with having a child in that season of life opposed to when you were younger? Well, I was, you know, much more at ease. I didn't worry about every single thing, every single stage of life.

And I had three other children who were in the house, you know, running around. And also, I really enjoyed her so much. I knew that there would become a time when I wouldn't be able to cuddle her, rock her to sleep at night. kiss her and she would put her little hand on me and she would just go the whole time you know and i just love mommy should kind of stop because i nursed her for a long time and um so i enjoyed her a lot more because by now i had fallen in love with my children in motherhood and i thought oh this is a gift i may never have this gift again you wrote a book with your husband clay called the life giving parent can you talk about why the four to 14-year-old range of children is so crucial for Christian parents in

particular? You know, there's so many things I could say. I would even say the first four years, you know, science is so very clear about attachment with children, being gentle, loving them, talking with them. There's studies that have shown that when you kiss a child on the top of their head, their intelligence grows, their receptivity to words and to language and to vocabulary. And I think the reason why we said 4 to 14, that was a lot to do with the fact that we wrote books on education. And that's usually when people become more serious about trying to educate their children. And then to 14, because during those years, they're taking everything in its truth. They're in a great learning process. They're questioning things.

they're curious. The average four-year-old asks 100 questions a day. Why is the sky blue instead of yellow? You know, because they're made to grow. But then when they get to those teenage years, sometimes 11, 12, 13, whatever, that's when they don't take everything in its truth. That's when they begin to think more philosophically. Yes. And so you and Clay, in the life-giving parent, you guys wrote about how, In those years from four to 14 years old, that's where it's so crucial to help them develop their theology and understand why they believe what they believe when it comes to faith. Because once they get into the teenage years, that's when you're starting to question everything. And then it's almost, it's way harder to then go in and try to develop that spiritual fruit, so to speak. Right. Right. And exactly. And I think we wanted to have an organic faith. We wanted to be morning, noon, and night. Oh, my goodness, three of those stars in a place. Isn't this the beautiful night?

I wonder what God was in when he made chili peppers, because I sure love my Mexican food. We would talk about our God as real because He was real to us. God was real to us. Yeah. Why is a philosophy statement something that all women should create for their families? I think that if you can really think through what you want to accomplish, what you believe, the direction that you want to go and what your values are. and I do it on a regular basis, the more deeply I can define what I believe is important in life and then make goals towards that end, the more likely I am to achieve what is important to me in my heart. Again, that's why the 15 minutes a day is so important because you're thinking through, what am I giving my life to? How do I need to correct my course? Where am I having difficulty?

And if you don't sit down and take that time to ponder, to think, to civilize for your then you're really without thinking through your philosophy and your goals and your ideals, you probably won't have any place to go forward. You also discuss in the life-giving parent how important it is to guard our children's hearts. And I think one thing that Christian parents, especially today, are struggling with is, okay, I understand especially with just the cultural rot happening, definitely all over the world, but especially in America right now, I want to guard. my child's heart, but I also want to put them in positions to be witnesses to other children

and to share Jesus with people. How do you balance that? I think that if a parent is healthy and strong, the child will be. Because if the child accompanies the parent, like we had a lot of people in her home and we took our children to homeless shelters or we took our children with us all over the world. But I think it's real important to understand a little bit of child psychology and child educational levels. A child takes, they're building their foundation of morality, of virtue of what is right and what is wrong for a number of years. And so you want to give them hero tales, you want to give them virtuous things to do. That's why we wrote this book, Call a 24 Family Ways. You're establishing for them what is right and what is wrong, what is good and what is bad.

And you're establishing foundations of mommy and daddy are so happy that we have the Clarkson club. We love being a family. Families are the stability in the whole world. We're verbalizing, we're teaching, we're instructing because there comes a point where when they have a foundation that makes them secure of knowing what a good worldview is, what to think, how to believe, then they can go into the abstract thinking phase with everything sound. But it's so important for parents to understand it's not moralism. It's not about what are the 10 rules I want them to learn. It's about you having integrity that when you say you love them, you're spending time with them,

looking at their eyes, tickling their soft back at night when they go to sleep. You know, you are being honest. You're asking them to forgive you when you are flawed. It calls you to your best self to have to train and mentor another human being who is looking to you for truth. There were a lot of questions submitted about your son Nathan. Are you okay with answering questions about him? Oh, sure. He's amazing.

He's one of my dearest and all the world friends. Yeah, so you're, and Nathan was diagnosed with OCD and ADD, correct? OCD, ADHD, ODD, you know, dyslexia, yes. They'd like to know some advice on how you approached parenting a neurologically divergent child and then how you and your husband finally decided that medication was the best option. We did not, Nathan did not have medication until he was an adult, a young adult. Because I read, I do always do a lot of reading, whatever your child specifically has, do a lot of reading and then have confidence in yourself. We could see a lot of things that people would just say about Nathan that kind of group him in with statistics.

And I would think, no, no, he's kind of brilliant at this. No, I don't think that would be good. Trust yourself to be the person that God is entrusted to be an authority over this child. Number two, it is very difficult to have neurodivergent children. And so you need to plan into your schedule a break, you know, once in a while. See if there are friends in your life that will love your child and ask them over to play with their children. And Nathan was, everybody loved him. He was the Pied Piper.

He had more difficulty even at heart. home. But I would say read everything you possibly can, but all children, all children and all adults, it's give them a foundation of love. And I would say don't judge their motives. If a neurodivergent child misbehaves or does something in an unusual way, look behind what they did and say, did they mean to be mean? Did they mean to do this or that? Oh, no, this is. a part of the part of their brain that doesn't work well. So don't judge your child as though that child is acting in the way that you would. Give them grace. Believe forward in their lives. You are very special to me. Love them, love them, love them. And give yourself grace because your child is not

going to fit into the box in their world. What encouragement can you give a new mom who is struggling with an identity away from her 9 to 5 job. Let's say she's decided to be a stay-at-home mom now, and this is so new for her, but she's struggling. She feels lost. I think that most women haven't been prepared to be mothers in this culture,

and they don't have that grandmother, the aunt, cousins to support them. So, number one, don't be critical of yourself. It is perfectly normal and any big adjustment in life, whether it's children, marriage, or whatever. Number two, some of the mundane, of taking care of a child by yourself can be very boring. It's okay. I mean, it's,

but it's going to grow you up. When I look at my children, I realize that I thought I was so mature until I had children. Then I, you know, but I did fall in love with them. And I began to realize that the shaping, if you can build your ideals and your vision, when I held my daughter, I was almost 31. I was older when I got married. And all of a sudden I thought, oh, my goodness, this is a human being. And it was as though God said to me, this precious little one will believe in my love when they're teenagers if you show them how I love throughout their lives. This child is somebody I've given you into your hands as a real stewardship. They will become as intellectual as you as you challenge them they will become if you can understand that this is a work

of your lifetime and you will like it better and better and your child will sleep through the night one sometime and um they are a part of you you kind of give yourself time to fall in love with it um to to to become excited about it find a support group or some other women but honestly my children have called me to my best self because I took them seriously. I thought, how can I shape them into the most excellent person they can possibly be? And so it caused me to grow. I thought, well, what is excellent? Well, what are great?

What is great literature? Well, what are great experiences? And so when you make that transition, it will take a while, but it is the most affirming thing I've ever done. In other words, I've done a lot of things professionally, but my children are the best book I've ever written. And they are my best friends today. They just amaze me, honestly. I really loved this question that was submitted. It's for people who are currently living with in-laws or other friends or family members. They said, well, how can I create a life-giving home,

Sally, in one room? Oh, my goodness. I am the queen of that. I've moved 24 times, and we've lived in tiny places and big places. And all you have to do, is light a candle and put on music. You know, again, you are, you're kind of the magician that shapes the environment. When my girls, they were in different programs, but both of them were living in these very old rooms in Oxford, just tiny old rooms. And on their own, without talking to each other, one of them developed a wine and chocolate weekly meeting.

Yes. And they, you know, they had a little bit of food, and they lived. candles and put on music and they invited their friends in, they stuffed it on the bed as they sat on the floor. And then the other one did something similar, you know, with treats and music in a book club. And because of our moves possibly, I realized that beauty resides in your heart. And if you have an imagination for wherever I go, I'm going to bring a little bit of dimension or color, a little bit of myself, maybe some pictures of my family. Lifegiving home, I lived with my in life. laws, my mother-in-law for a while we were getting our publishing house and ministry up and going.

And yes, it's taxing and it can be difficult. But I did figure out how to make a little room here and there for all the special things that I thought were important. How do you make a home feel personalized and homey when you're on a budget? Well, goodness, I think that the heart of a home is the heart of the person who's conducting the music there. You know, the nice thing about where I live now in Oxford is that they're at what they call charity shops

and they're basically like a goodwill or something. And I have found the most wonderful treasures. It's like treasure hunting. And nothing matches of mine in Oxford. You know, I have a funny looking tall

teacup and a little one, short one. And, you know, it's because I, on my way walking to different places. I have to pass my favorite charity shop. But I have filled my home with treasures, you know, garage sales, whatever, Facebook, what's it called the Facebook? Marketplace? Marketplace, yes. But I've just become a kind of a, I don't know, a person who is a treasure seeker. And you know what's so fun about going to somebody's home who does that? They're a treasure seeker and they have all of these knickknacks and different paintings and books

from all these different places and nothing matches. It's interesting to look at. It feels more homie and you get a sense of their personality. I think that Instagram has really, for millennials, for my generation, it has ruined this idea of being eclectic and having these different interests and things that don't match, which makes people interesting. Because is we think of like our homes in the sense of this perfect curated feed like we do on social media, where everything has to be beige, everything has to be white. And then you go to somebody's house like that, and you don't feel welcome. You don't feel like you're getting to know them.

You know what I mean? There's nothing interesting to look at. I love going to people's houses where nothing matches and they have all these crazy books on the shelf or you have all these different broken teacups and things like that, but they all tell a story. Mm-hmm. And I think, too, again, there's room for personality. If you really just want all beige or all blue or whatever, you can still find that at the charity shops or at the Facebook marketplace. You know, but I do, I totally agree with you.

I think we are kindred spirits. I think that when you have a house that tells a story, you know, whether it's going to, you know, some of the discount places and finding beautiful frames and then putting your favorite photographs in those pictures and people say, oh, where's that from? when did you do that? Or, you know, I collect calligraphy. I collect birds. I collect some art. I collect, you know, different books, obviously. But that's who I am. And I want my life to be broadly, diverse, divergent. And I've grown a lot by going all over the world and seeing things. I actually have a library. I have to tell you, look quick, this is clay. Mine is upstairs. But on my wall in the library, I started gathering pictures that represented everything that was a value to me. Like, one of the pictures is from Austria that I got in a secondhand shop. And I put that up because

I care about international issues. And it was a famous artist that I got at a secondhand shop. And then I have a picture of children. And then I have picture of mountains because I love nature. And then I have a picture of scripture. And like, anyway, if you looked at this wall, it would be like looking at the inside of my heart. Yes. Because I wouldn't be able to say to people, this is what I care about. And it was really fun collecting them and putting all of the different things together. And so it was a lot of fun for me.

Sally, I saw the coolest thing the other day. There was a family where their child had gotten a crayon or something and started drawing on the wall. And they were drawing like they were making a little house. And when the parents saw that the child had, you know, drawn on the wall and ruined the wall in the home, they interrupted them, obviously, to tell them to stop. Well, instead of taking a magic eraser and erasing the flaw now that was on their living room wall, they decided to get this teeny tiny picture frame and put it over the house. And then they put a little marker like you would see at a museum with the title of the painting and who the artist was. And so they wrote, interoperable. They wrote interrupted house by so-and-so.

name the year. And I just thought, how funny is that? Now when people come over, that is a hilarious thing to be like, what do you think about our art? It's like this, you know, drawing that their kid had started drawing on the wall instead of trying to cover it up. Those are funny things to embrace those flaws of life or things that we would think of as a flaw and be like, this is funny and it's interesting and it's conversation and it shows that we live here. People are too afraid to have this standard of having a perfect home and I can't invite anyone over unless I, you know, everything matches and everything's perfect all the time. And I think those are the things that people like about you.

Well, I just love your heart. I really think that we're getting back to something else is that don't listen to the voices. Everybody has a unique fingerprint. They have unique DNA because we were made to be ourselves. And the more you can love who you are in a good sense and say, this is who I am. And this is what I cook. and this is my house that I, you know, put a little free of them out. And I bet that child is so affirmed.

Oh, yes. You know, I am an artist. But I do think that, you know, the voices in your head can create havoc and can keep you from just enjoying the fact that you are just a real person. Your feet are made of clay, but you can still create joy. One of the most special things my dad ever did for me was surprise me with a trip to see Coldplay, which was my favorite band at the time when I was 16. It was so thoughtful and out of nowhere, and it just meant a whole lot to me.

I still remember it to this day. Maybe things haven't been great with your teenager, okay? You desperately need to spend quality time with them and bond, but you just have no idea what to do that would be fun for both of you. May I suggest Turning Point USA's Young Women's Leadership Summit? It would also be a dynamite graduation gift, by the way. Mom or dad, take your daughter to YWLS to hear from the biggest speakers in the conservative movement like Ali Stucky, Candice Owens, Kaylee McEnany, Yomney, Yomney Park, Laura Ingram and Carrie Lake, to name a few. The production value is insane. She's going to feel like she's at a concert.

Thousands of young women from across the country will be there. And if you're not a parent bringing someone, but you're just a woman wanting to go, all ages are welcome at tpUSA.com slash YWLS. You'll find all frequently asked questions there. That's TPUSA.com slash YWLS with code Pauplitics for a discount on tickets. The event is coming up soon in a couple weeks. So plan this ASAP. It's June 9th through 11th in Dallas, Texas at the Gaylord. Just click the link in the description.

If you were to create a beginner kit to homemaking and you were going to give that to a new bride as a gift, like at a bridal shower, what would you include in that kit? Well, I'm like Marie Antoinette, I'm not very practical. But I would probably include a little tea can, a T-10, they have, you know, those in Europe where you keep your tea and your sugar. I give her a little can of tea with a cup and say, enjoy, you know, enjoy yourself every day. Take time to civilize your soul. I would have a candle. I would probably have some kind of music or a list of streaming place. list that I loved. I would probably, let me think, a book, I would probably say this is one of my

favorite books. What's your favorite devotional? Oh, I don't have a favorite. I just, I take recommendations for people. I have a whole basket of devotions and I kind of, you know, whatever mood I'm in, I draw from them. I've read so many books over the years, but I have about 50, but not just one. Yeah. Normalize being a book hoarder. I like my book that my devotional for moms the best. The mom hard moments. There you go. I'm teasing. No, that's great. I wrote a little devotional so that moms could take two minutes to encourage themselves during the day. What encouragement can you give mothers that are feeling overwhelmed by keeping the home? I agree with you. I mean, you know, I think that my kids said that the angriest I ever got was when I would walk into the kitchen to a pile of dishes, because I would just feel

overwhelmed. But I would say, you know, again, it's, I finally, I was washing dishes one day and I realized, okay, these dishes represent the fact that we have the life-giving table where we have rousing discussions and everybody loves my cooking and they've all become best friends. And so a part of it is, you know, just accept it. It's going to happen. And it's a part of life. Second thing is that I set real rhythms in my house. Like every day at 5 o'clock, I would put on kind of, you know, rhythmic music. And I'd say, okay, 15 minutes is turned on. And I would make everyone go and start sorting out, cleaning, straightening up rooms. So that at the end of my day, it wouldn't be overwhelming to me. I had a one day a week when we would vacuum, clean bathrooms, do whatever. I didn't do it every day.

I gave my children, instead of different chores, I would say, you are always going to set the table every night the rest of your life because I can't remember short sharks. And then the other one would empty the dishwasher, you know. In other words, I put together some systems that for just a very few minutes or one time a week, we could move in the direction of going from chaos to order. And of course, it was always in and out of chaos because we had real life people who lived there. But it's funny to me today, though, because I think, were they listening? Were they watching me? And now when I go into their homes, they're wonderful.

But it doesn't always look like anybody's listening to you at the time. Yeah, that's a very good point. Well, and also they might meet you with defiance, and then later they understand that you were right. I think that's more the case with my mom and I. I'm trying to get me to do things or understand things. And I was like, I don't need to do that. I can do it my own way. And now that I'm, I just turned 30, I'm like, oh, she was for sure right about that.

You kind of learned that. Yeah, yeah. Now, you have been married, have you been married for over 40-something years now? Yeah, it's either 42 or 43. I could ask my husband in the other office. 42, 43 years of marriage, multiple kids. How did you find the time to make sure that you were still putting him first? I didn't put him first.

Tell us about the mistake of moments that you didn't. He wasn't out of first. You know what I mean is, you know, when I look at life, Somebody once told me that when you look at a pendulum, it's only in balance at one point, and then you're moving from imbalance to balance. But, I mean, he was. He was always a priority in my heart as my children where I had a place of sacredness for them. But I've kind of, I've been writing about this lately, so there's a spoiler alert. You'll read it in one of my next books.

But we used to love watching the Olympics, the ice skaters, you know, the ones that did the dancing and throwing each other. they're all partners and stuff. And I kind of compare marriage to that. It's a long journey. It's about partnership. But you have to learn how to dance with the other person. You have to learn to intuit them. There are a lot of falls and a lot of bruises.

But if you focus your heart towards who is this person and what do they really like? How can I make time for them? I will say, and people are going to think I'm crazy, when my husband would come home from his office, We have our offices in our house, but I would make him a cup of tea. And I would say, tell me about your day. And just having the chance to settle down, to share the stresses. And now we do have a tea time every afternoon around 4 o'clock. Now that we're working in the house, I work upstairs.

He works downstairs. But I made moments of intimacy for our friendship to grow. We all had dinner together every single light. And, you know, I mean, obviously, as they got hold and they had meetings, but what I mean is if it was a bowl of Cheerios or if it was just a piece of toast and cheese, we'd light the candles, put music on. But we provided times for our relationship. And we used to go out when we first got married for several years, we would have breakfast once a week and do planning and talk to each other about everything. So our whole marriage was built on making time for companionship and friendship. Does that make sense? Yes. How was the transition going from having all these little kids in the house to everyone's grown up now and now you're in the season of your marriage where, oh, it's just us again? How was that transition for you?

Was it easy? Did it come easy or was it difficult? I think all transitions are somewhat difficult. And our children were all here. I mean, we had them here for so long and it was so much fun. And they were a lot of focal point of our lives. But I actually live in Oxford where three of my children and three of my grandchildren live. which is a great reason for why I'm there. But I think that because my husband and I are both

very idealistically driven, we feel like until we're either senile or we get to go see the Lord, we have people to minister to, books to write, things to do. And we built our partnership around having an influence on the world for light and beauty and goodness. And so I'm very grateful that I've worked. Sometimes I need to tone it down a little bit. But I would say our work really inspires us and we spend a lot of time and a lot of money to go spend time with our kids. Yeah. They're our best friends and so we still invest in them. But I wanted my kids to flourish and to have a life and to pursue what they wanted to pursue. That was, you know, I think that was in my heart all along. So I would give graces. They don't need me to be to mommy them. They don't need me to

tell them what to do they're adults, I will ask them what they think I should do. So it was an understanding that there would be a point at which I needed to say, go fly. And I will be your best cheerleader. Has there been anything recently that surprised you some really good advice that one of your adult children gave you? Oh, yeah. I mean, they feel free to give me advice all the time now. But I asked them to speak into my life. And all my children are kind of in the writing world, too. So they give me advice in publishing and advice on actually the best advice they've given to me is setting boundaries. You know, Mom, you really need to just put that aside. You don't have to answer every letter. You don't have to help every person in the world. You know, just don't feel guilty if you close the

door on meeting that need. So they really help me a lot to set boundaries and to protect our time so that we can have time alone where no one's looking and no one is inside the circle. What are some above and beyond special things that you can do for an overnight guest? We kind of have this tradition where first when they walk in the door, there's a welcome sign. And sometimes we even erase the little board and put welcome, Shirley or Welcome Bill or whatever it is, you know, with their name. When they go upstairs in their room, they'll find a little card that says, I'm so happy. that you came to see us. Or, you know, we're so glad whatever you want to see in the car. There's always a little bowl of chocolates and probably some roasted, salted nuts of some kind,

and two or three bottles of water and towels laid out on the bed. And then something that I've learned because I travel a lot and go places, I think people need leadership. And by that, what I mean is they need to know, we're going to have dinner tonight at six o'clock. If you are hungry before then, here's the coffee maker. Here is, you know, here's some snacks for you because I've been places where I would be upstairs in the guest room and I would go, I don't know when we're going to eat again and I'm starving or, you know, I really need it of this or that. Is it okay for me to ask? I'm interrupting the people. So I think just guiding people and saying, this is my schedule.

I'll be out in just a minute. Clay will be home at this time. Does that make sense? Yes, a little itinerary. Yeah. Putting them at ease. That's what I mean by leaving them to know. what to expect. That's great advice. All right. So what are your what are some of your favorite

conversations recently that you've had on your podcast at home with Sally that you really recommend keep servatives go check out? Stuff that just really stuck with you lately. I don't have a lot of people on my podcast because I travel so much I may not always have the right microphone. I don't have the beautiful setup that you have but I do occasionally have some people on there and I just did a recording a little bit ago. And, um, It was actually about the tea time discipleship, but there was a really sweet woman that I enjoy so much. And she's right in the trenches. She has four kids and a business, and they're building a house.

And she said, how do you include all of these things? Why do these values matter? And we had the most wonderful conversation about how do you become an excellent, civilized, intelligent, you know, life giving home professional woman. And we talked a lot about what it looks like to make goals, to have time, to work on yourself, because people are going to be drawing from you your whole life. And we talked about that. It was a great talk. Where can people get tea time discipleship, your brand new book? They can get it on Amazon and almost any bookstore that you would want to order it through. you can even get it in England before we were able to get it here.

So any place that they want to, and they can find out all about it on sally Clarkson.com, where we have a book summary page and some pre-order gifts that will be there for a long time. Fabulous. And that'll be linked in the description notes. So if you're listening and you want to just click right there, you'll have a link right to her podcast, to her book, all of our fabulous things, her website, all of that. Miss Sally, as always, it is a pleasure to speak with you. You're one of my absolute favorite guest to have on this bill over. Oh, my show honored. Well, I love speaking with you. We could have so much fun. I would just be beside myself to stop by at some point if I'm ever in your neck of the

woods to see your lovely bookshelf. Well, you must come. I would love to have you and I would make you whatever you preferred to drink. We would have fun talking. Thank you, Miss Sally. Thank you so much, too. to be here today. We love Sally so much on this show. She is so much wisdom to give. And I feel like this audience is so blessed to be able to hear from her not just once, but twice now. And I believe the only other people that I've had on twice are former FBI serial killer

profiler Jim Clementi and then conservative commentator and host of human events daily, Jack Posobic. If you have not heard my first interview with Sally from last December, it is all about how to make a life-giving home. will make you want to transform your place, whether you live in a one-bedroom apartment, your in-law's basement, or a mansion. You will learn from Sally how to create a space that just pours life into anyone who comes in contact with it. Her new book, Tea Time Discipleship, is in the show notes. It is a beautiful book for yourself, or it is a fantastic gift for someone. If you've got a

birthday or housewarming party coming up, please leave a five-star review for this episode to support the show. Next week, our May is for the mom series. is going overseas. It's another international episode, baby. We are talking to an etiquette expert from the land of tea and crumpets and why state media decided to accuse her of white supremacy just because she wanted to stay at home and be a wife and a mom. Yes, I am dead serious. It is a wild story.

You're going to love it. Look for that on the spillover next Thursday at 9 p.m. Pacific, midnight eastern, anywhere you get your podcast. All interviews. are available to watch if you subscribe to Poplitics on YouTube. I'm Alex Clark, and this is The Spillover. Love you, mean it. Bye.