Dan Snow's History Hit - 28 Years on Death Row

Episode Date: January 18, 2022

Anthony Ray Hinton is an Alabama was held on death row after being wrongly convicted of the murders of two restaurant managers, John Davidson and Thomas Wayne Vasona, in Birmingham, Alabama on February 25 and July 2, 1985. In 2014 he was released after winning a new trial which demonstrated that the forensic evidence used against him during his original conviction was totally flawed. Since his exoneration and release Anthony has become an activist, writer, and author. In this episode, Anthony takes Dan around the streets of Birmingham, Alabama and they explore some of the most iconic locations of the civil rights movement. They also discuss his experiences as a death row inmate and the vital importance of forgiveness.If you'd like to learn more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad-free podcasts and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe today! To download the History Hit app please go to the Android or Apple store.

Hi everyone, welcome to Dancerless History. We've gone back to the archives now and we have taken out an episode that's a particular favourite of mine. It was an amazing opportunity. I took my family, well in fact my wife who is a criminal justice campaigner, she took me and my little daughter to meet someone wrongly imprisoned on death row for 28 years. His name is Anthony Ray Hinton. He has now been released by the state of Alabama, and he is an extraordinary and powerful campaigner for forgiveness and for justice. He was incorrectly convicted of the murders of two restaurant managers, John Davidson and Thomas Wayne Versona, in 1985, and he was released after nearly 30 years after he won a retrial. The evidence against him was flimsy to non-existent. So in this podcast, Antony and I talked about his experiences, talked about racial justice in the US, in the Deep South.

We walked the streets of Birmingham, Alabama, a place which saw so many of the remarkable incidents that have become familiar to millions of us from the great clash for civil rights that took place. And I was overwhelmed, really, by his generosity, his lack of animosity, his determination to live a good life, despite the fact that so many years were taken away from him. He wasn't allowed out of prison to go to his mother's funeral. I hope you enjoyed this episode of which me and, I suppose, my daughter as well. We asked Anthony lots of questions about his experiences and what he learned. If you wish to go and listen to other back episodes

of the podcast that aren't available on this free feed where you're listening now, you can go to History Hit TV. It's our digital history channel. And we've got hundreds of documentaries on there. We have got thousands of podcasts on there without the ads. And for a very small subscription,

you get to subscribe to the whole thing. It's a joy and a revolution, folks. It's going to be awesome. Please follow the link in the description of this podcast and it will take you right there i am gearing up i'm literally gearing up in fact i just bought a pair of very nice cold weather boots because i'm on my way to antarctica history hit is on the expedition to find shackleton's missing shipwreck endurance and you'll be able to follow all our adventures here on the podcast on our social channels and of course eventually on our tv channel history at tv where you'll be learning about exactly what goes down on the expedition in the meantime folks here's anthony

ray hinson enjoy so ray where are we now we at the br the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. And then is that the 14th Street Church? It's on the 16th Street Baptist Church. The 16th Street Church. Baptist Church, yes. And white extremists blew up that church? They did. I think it was on a Sunday morning. They was getting ready to attend Sunday school.

they was getting ready to attend Sunday school and four little young black girls between the ages of five and I think maybe eight lost their life that Sunday morning. The bomb was set off by the Ku Klux Klan back in the early 60s and that's the way it was. Do you remember, what was Birmingham like in that time for you growing up? Birmingham was perhaps the racist city or state of Alabama as a whole, but Birmingham was sure enough racist. We had this man by the name of Bull Connor,

who was the commissioner, police chief, and he hated black people with a passion. I mean, I don't even know if hate would even be the proper word to say. He sicked the dogs on them. This is Kelly England Park right here. And they set the hoses, the dogs from the fire trucks sprayed them with water and it was just

a mess back then the way black people was treated just because they was born black What's interesting about your story though is that people sometimes think maybe Martin Luther King came here and fixed it all. But you were subject to discrimination, what, in the years after this?

Absolutely. The problems weren't solved. The problem is not solved and they never will be solved until people learn that we all was God's creation. We all is here for a reason. There is no black hair, there is no white hair, and we might as well try to get along here. I have never,

to this day, understood racism. I have never understood what would make a human being hate another man simply because he was not born the same color that he was. I find it rewarding that we are different in ways. I mean, I can learn from you. Hopefully you can learn from me.

And I do believe that this world is big enough for all of us to enjoy it together. And where all this hatred comes from and why, I just don't understand. When lots of other people come here, I come here and think, oh, this is a happy place, and Dr. King was here. For you, is this a hollow place? Because these problems persisted, and then you end up being in prison for 30 years,

partly because of racial prejudice. Absolutely. Don't let... This might not be 1964 and 65, And this might not be 1964 and 65 and all the way in 2000, 2017. Racism still exists very much in this country. It exists more so in the South to me than other places that you could ever imagine. It is just done now on the cover better. I often tell people that the

Cluthor's clan took off the white robe and put on the black robe. They have more power now to do whatever they want. White men of pure hatred become judges. They become police officers. They become everything to show and to become more and more hatred, torture. And now they have the law on their side because they are the law. And where back then it was just mobs of people. But now look at how black men are being killed in this country. And so to me, racism haven't went away.

It's been here all along. It's just come into full circle now. But you still think what those campaigners out here, those demonstrators, the people who followed Dr. King, you still think they were doing an important job here? Oh, absolutely. I mean, make no mistake about it.

I think we have come a long ways. But the sad segment of it all is that we still have a long ways to go. I mean, people from other countries, they read about America. They see how you can come and make a decent living. You come and see all the good. They don't know the bad. And once they get here, after years or whatever, it might not take that long, they start seeing exactly the bad.

You take the Mexicans, you take anyone of color, they come here and after a while they're treated just as bad as the blacks. So, you know, I don't know where they're going to take it. But this is not a white world. This is not a white, predominantly state. We all got to learn to get along, and we got to all learn to share whatever we have. So we're just looking at some of the exhibits in the museum here.

It looks like the 60s were a crazy time in the South. Oh, the 60s were sure enough some crazy time. I mean, as a black man, you couldn't ride at night. You couldn't. If you did, you was asking to be killed. You was asking for trouble. Everybody thought that you was a part of a third coming of the world. I mean, just being black, you could be not even involved in the pickets or knowing the bus ride.

Just the fact that you was black was reasonable enough for the police to pull you over, kill you, beat you to death or whatever. I mean, I never seen so much hatred than I had at the age of 8, 9. My mom used to try to explain it to you. And how do you explain what's going on to children? All they know is how to go outside and play and and try to enjoy life but this is what was going on and even today I asked what was it all about I mean what was it so bad that the black man had to endure all of the harsh treatment that they went through simply because the color of their skin.

And as Martin Luther King said, if we're wrong, then God Almighty is wrong. And I mean, he created us. And those same men that would sit there and beat you because of the color of your skin is the same man that was blown to some church and believed in God and worshiped God and praised God. But outside of that, I guess they felt that God made a mistake by creating a black man. People just don't understand what black people have been through and what black people go through.

And they think that we truly have overcome, but really and truly, we haven't overcome anything. We still have no power when it comes to equal justice. We still have no power when it comes to making decisions. All decisions are made from white people. Make no mistake about it. is made from white people. Make no mistake about it. Right there in Montgomery where the decision making is made, yeah you have some black senators, but they don't even have a voice where they can get any kind of bill passed through. Think about it. Let's say there's 15 white men and there's 14 black men and we have to put this up to a vote for something. If the 15 white men stay together

Who win? They vote And this is what we have so all the decision-making all the law that is made and created White man making and so that's why I challenge people to tell me where have we progress in? Why haven't we got a little closer to help making decisions that is not just for black, but for everybody? All the power is still in the right place. In Alabama, you have 67 counties. 67.

And you only have one black DA in 67 counties. Now you tell me what's wrong with that picture. Okay, well, Ray, we're sitting in your house now. We've got it on a sofa here. We've got the Universal Declaration of Human Rights on the back of the sofa. That's important for a man who's been denied the most basic of rights.

Absolutely. I mean, I read it daily. I think about human rights. You know, this country that we live in called America is always criticizing another country about human rights. And America's house is not clean. Americans treat their citizens far worse than other countries. It's just what I call America's dirty little secret. And I just always wonder

how in the world can you criticize other countries about their citizens when you exactly do the same thing. So quickly, tell me, we'll start, what happened to you? At the age, early age of 29, the

state of Alabama had had two restaurant managers robbed and killed, and they was just out looking for any blackmail they could find. I just happened to be the one they found. Came and arrested me with no eyewitness, fingerprints no nothing and my mom owned an old pistol they came and my mom let them had the pistol they went back and instead of telling the truth they said that the pistol matched the bullets that they retrieved from the deceased bodies. That cost me 30 years of my life.

I wish I could say that Alabama made a mistake. I mean, I would love to be able to say, hey, they got it wrong. But Alabama knew exactly what they was doing. The authority knew exactly that their own bullets didn't match that pistol. But in America, when you're black, poor, you can go to prison for the rest of your life. But Alabama had every intention of executing me for a crime that they knew that I didn't do. So you were 30 years on death row.

Yes. Now, I've got my daughter here. She's got a question for you. Yeah. What was your day like at death row and what did you wear? What did you normally have for lunch and dinner? We wore all white, white pants, white shirts. All white, white pants, white shirts.

Dinner and lunch and breakfast was the worst food you could ever eat. In prison, it is designed for you not to fall in love with it. It is designed to make you feel less than a human being. and I had to endure 30 years of it, just sitting there eating the worst foods you could possibly be able to eat, wearing the same clothes day in and day out. You only could change clothes every six months. They'll give you a new pair of pants once every six months. month. They'll give you a new pair of pants once every six months. And sitting there, I hate this hell, but it was pure hell. That's what my day was like. Every day was pure hell, and I had to find a way to relieve myself from that hell. And so in my mind, I just imagined being gone. And that's the only way I was able to survive

that 30 years of pure hell. And you didn't just survive, because everyone that knows you now knows that you're a particularly positive, upbeat person. So somehow you came through that experience stronger. Well, I would like to think so. stronger? Well, I would like to think so. You know, my enemies was trying to help me execute it. And I believe that I was given this strength through my faith. I've always believed that no matter what your enemy tried to do for you if you

have God on your side you will prevail and this strength just came from the teaching of my mother as a young boy to believe in myself to never let anyone take anything from me that they don't. I couldn't do a thing about the 30 years because I had been before this so-called justice system. And the justice system sends me to die. But this mind, this joy that I developed while I'm in there for 30 years, there's nothing the system could do about it. They couldn't come in there and say, stop being happy. Stop pretending like you are in England visiting the queen. could do about it. They couldn't come in there and say stop being happy or stop pretending like you're in England visiting the Queen. Stop pretending that you're

talking to the Queen. There's nothing they could do about that. That's what I found joyful. The fact that I had the upper hand and I could just go where I want, when I want to, in my mind. And if they could, they probably would have charged me for escape because I definitely wasn't there. Okay, my daughter's got another question. What did you want from the state of Alabama and what did you miss the most? The thing that I missed the most was my mother. My mother was up in age and living here all alone, and I just thought that

it was a disservice to not only her, but to me to miss all of those years with the mother that I had. I had a loving, kind mother who went beyond the call of duty as a mother to provide for me. went beyond the call to duty as a mother to provide for me. My father lost his mind when I was four, and so my mother didn't stop. She provided me with food, shelter, clothes, whatever I needed, my mother was always there. Listen to Dan Snow's history. We've got Anthony Ray Hinton wrongly convicted spent 28 years on death row more coming up

I'm Matt Lewis and I'm Dr. Alan Orjanaga and in Gone Medieval we get into the greatest mysteries the gobsmacking details and latest groundbreaking research from the greatest millennium in human history. We're talking Vikings, Normans, kings and popes who were rarely the best of friends, murder, rebellions and crusades. Find out who we really were by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit wherever you get your podcasts. You'll say your father lost your mind because he was involved in an industrial accident working in the mines here in Birmingham, which is the great industrial city of the South. In a way, your family has been a great example of what happens to working black families here you've been subject to uh terrible working conditions and industrial practices uh travesties of justice and you're

a historian i mean it what what is it over the last decades over the last centuries you think that has that has made your family story what it is? Now, that's a little hard to say because, you know, strength. My mom was a strong woman. And can you just imagine having at least six of us who were still in the house when my father lost his mind? And my mom would work in white people houses, cleaning, whatever she had to do to provide for us. And so I think the extraordinary point would be that I drew strength from the fact that I could

go back and see how she made it. And I knew even on death row, if my mom can make it, I surely can make it. Because even on death row, I felt I had a little more advantage than she had. And so you draw a script from what you've seen her go through. You draw a script from the fact that she never complained. She just always kept a smile on her face and made it through another day. And that's really what I did. I just drew strength from her and the devastation that she had went through. You've told me that if people don't know the past, they don't know where they are in the

present. What's important about the history of the black community here in Alabama that you think people should know? Well, of all the wrongdoing, all the racism that they had to endure, and that type of thing was that blacks were hung just because they was black. The fear that was put in black back in the late 60s, afraid to be caught out at night. I want young people especially to know their history. Everything that they think they have as far as equal right, someone had to pay a heavy price for that. For instance, Martha Luther King paid a price,

gave his life so that we could be better, even I could be better. And I want young people, white people, everybody to know that for what we have now, there were some people paid a severe price for it. They lost their life simply because they was marching and trying to get equal right, voting rights. And here we are 200 years later, and here go America trying to make it even harder for people of color to vote. And so, one hand, I feel that we made progress, and on the other hand, I feel that we're still back in the late 60s. It just done more undercover where you can't see it and recognize it as though back in the 60s it was just out and open.

And I just want young people to stop believing in this American dream. Stop believing that you have the opportunity to be everything you want to do. No, you don't. You denied scholarships simply because of the color of your skin. You denied entries of a lot of things, a lot of programs that average white person get in America or blacks can get. But you don't hear nobody really talking about it because they don't want the world to know that America is racist to its core.

I'm talking about there's no other country that I think is more racist than America. I see it every day. I tend to stay away from it in the sense of I go where I feel I'm welcome or I don't go where I don't think I'm welcome. And so I want young people to understand, too, they need to educate themselves. And the first thing I would ask them to do is pick up history, go and talk to people that know history,

because American history books don't have a lot of the history in them. They don't want you to be up on history. They want you to be ignorant. And so I would invite young people to just go out and do their homework and learn the history because I am a true believer. There's no way you can have a future unless you know your past. I'm Matt Lewis. And I'm Dr. Eleanor Yonaga. And in Gone Medieval, we get into the greatest mysteries. The gobsmacking details and latest groundbreaking research

from the greatest millennium in human history. We're talking Vikings. Normans. Kings and popes. Who were rarely the best of friends. Murder. Rebellions. And crusades.

Find out who we really were. By subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. Wherever you get your podcasts. Do you forgive the people that put you in prison? I do, and I forgive them not because they have come up to me and said, Mr. Hinton, I'm sorry, will you accept my apology? No one in the state of Alabama have asked my forgiveness. I don't forgive those people because they asked me to. I don't forgive them so they can sleep good at night. I forgive them so I can sleep good at night.

I forgive them because it is my Christian duty to forgive them so I can sleep good at night. I forgive them because it is my Christian duty to forgive them. And it would be against everything my mother taught me if I was running around here hating the very people that did this to me. She used to tell me as a young boy, she said, there will be people that dislike you because of the color of your skin. She said, you are not to hate them. You are to pray for them. And so I took that as a man, and she is right. It's like weight.

I won't lie. For the first three years that I was on death row, I couldn't think of nothing but revenge, nothing but hatred. And that hatred was making me not smile. It was making me not laugh. It was making me not want to be around anybody. So I know what hatred was doing. It was eating me up inside. And I compared, and I apologize to anyone that have it, but I compare it to like cancer. It just slowly eat you up. And so I had to get rid of that hate. And the only way that I could get rid of it is that I had to forgive the men that did this to me. I won't sit here and say it came overnight. It came in a year, but gradually it just left me. And I could feel it when it had left me. I began to smile more. I began to laugh more.

I wanted to be around people again. And so it's not important to me that Alabama have yet to do what they're supposed to do. Alabama have not apologized. Alabama have not given me one penny. I got out of prison. I had nowhere to live. I had no clothes. I had nothing.

But thank God I had a friend. Him and his wife invited me into their home, bought me clothes. My family as well, they bought clothes. But I just had to start all over again. I'm talking about a place to live or everything I had to go get identification so it's not like I got out of prison and everything was set up good for me I had literally started over from scratch and in uh on death row are you held

in solitary on death row yes you're in solitary for really 24 hours, but every now and then they'll come by and let you go outside and get a breath of fresh air. That's rare, but they will do it occasionally. But for the most part, you're in solitary 23 hours a day. That's every day. And so you have nothing but time to reflect about life, whether you made a good decision or a bad decision. You have time to see the world for what it is.

You have time to see people for what they truly are. It is a thinking thing, a think. And I used it to think. I used a thinking thing, a tank. And I used it to think. I used it to hopefully to better myself. And one thing I always believed that I would get out, but I didn't want to get out and have this hate. I wanted to get out and enjoy life.

I want to tell people that are going to hear this, you may not have no money, you may not even have a place to live, but there's nothing more important than your freedom. And even with that freedom, you can find sunshine even on a rainy day. You can find warmth on a cold day. And you can find laughter when something is really not funny. I'm telling you, there is nothing in this world that is more important to me than my freedom. I may not have any money. I may not have a car. I may not have nothing. But just to be able to be free, to walk where I want to, to go where I want to, that's freedom. And for 30 years, I was told where to go, how far I could go.

And it put a perspective on me as far as freedom and what it all stands for. Is Trump going to make America great again? That's good. I don't think Trump can make America great again, and again, I will ask the question, I would like to know when was America great again and again I will ask the question I would like to know when was America great? I was born in 1956. I grew up in a

country that was full of racists. I grew up where men were being lynched on a daily basis. I grew up where you couldn't eat in certain places. I grew up where you couldn't ride in the front of buses so i wanted someone to ask mr trump or ask someone uh importance when was america great and if you find out please uh get in touch with me and let me know the answer

to that it's a very challenging conversation because i'm someone who's always looked up to america and i'm steeped in the history of the constitution and the americans coming helping britain in the first and second world war and all the amazing things so for me for me and i suppose that's because i'm an affluent white person english-speaking white person uh hearing, I still find it sort of, it's something that runs against everything that I deep down sort of believe and understand. Well you know I understand where you're coming from

because America haven't showed you their dirty secret. America haven't and don't want people to know they're dirty or secret. I have no reason to lie on America. America have been good to me. America, in the same token, have been perhaps the worst thing that could ever happen to me.

And so I want people to really understand something. America may put on this beautiful face, but when nightfall comes, the true America comes out. The backdoor deals are made. Only the rich make the decision for everybody in America. People of color have no say, so they have no power. And that is designed by this great country called America. America might came and helped the Brits in World War I and II,

but you can bet America did it not just because they loved the Brits. They had a motive for doing it. Did you, like, make friends with anybody in death row when you were, like, in your cage? Yes, I made lots of friends when I was in that cage. Being around people for 30 years, there's no way you can't make friends with people, other deaf or inmate. And not only did I make friends with deaf or inmate, I would like to think that I made friends with the guards. You know, I'm warned that I didn't have no animosity toward those guards.

They treated me with respect. They treated me like a human being. I didn't have no animosity toward those guards. They treated me with respect. They treated me like a human being. They didn't put me there. They didn't come to the courthouse and spread lies that wasn't true on me. I realized that they had a job to do, and their job was to keep me in that confinement. And when it was time for me to leave that prison, guess what? Those same guards that locked me up opened that door and escorted me out of the prison.

And so they just did their job. And I didn't go there with any hatred toward no guards or anything. I always believed treat human beings with respect and hopefully all I can do is ask that they give them back to me. And if it's not, it's not. But I'm going to always treat people with respect. You did meet that white supremacist on death row. Yes.

Henry Hayes was his name. Henry was at the time maybe 19 or 20 when he came to death row. He had hung a 17-year-old black youth in the middle of the street from the orders of his father, who was a grand wizard. was a grand wizard and Henry came to death row and while he was on death row no blacks mistreated Henry no blacks threatened Henry at all because they was there for crime as well and so how can

you point the finger at someone else when you're there for the exact same thing? They may not have hung anybody, but it was all they accused of killing someone. And if Hayes was still alive, he would be the first one to tell you that his mother and his father and all

the Klan members lied to him all his life. They told him these bizarre stories that black people was like animals. They had no feeling. They didn't hurt. They didn't cry. For some reason, we are built different than white people. And so when you feed a child at an early age, they believe that, and he believed that. But when he came to death row and got around blacks, he seen a side that his father and mother didn't tell him. And he seen that black people cared about him.

At least the guys on death row cared about him. When Hayes needed something, if someone had it, they gave it to him. And Hayes was quoted as saying before he was executed, all of his life, his mother and father and his community lied to him, but he learned what true love felt like. He learned what compassion felt like, and he got it while he was on death row by blacks. Henry Hayes left me some books in his will when he was executed.

The thing that I've always will remember is that parents, regardless of how you feel, you are to your children to be truthful to them. And there's no reason any white person, in my opinion, can sit down and give their kids a reason to hate anyone, especially black people. Black people have did everything they've been asked to do in this country. They fought for this country, and yet they are still treated like third-class citizens in this country. Well, your book is published. What's it called?

It is called The Sun Does Shine. The Sun Does Shine. Remarkably optimistic title. I think it reflects the incredible, incredible positivity and lessons within the book. Good luck with it all, Ray. See you next time. Thank you.

And may I say hello to the Queen. I should say, everyone, the Queen, you developed a relationship with the Queen whilst you were on death row, didn't you? I did. The Queen saved my insanity. And I would love one day to just say thank you. And she probably would look at me if I could say thank you.

And she probably would say say what is he talking about thank you but you know I developed this fascination that I escaped mind wise and went to the palace and the queen and I had this beautiful lovely conversation for hours and and it was one person helping another person you know and uh and so she will always be a part of someone that I give credit for helping me do those 30 years. Without her, I don't know what I'd been able to do. I think if you met the Queen in real life, she might just know exactly what you're talking about.

I would hope so. But again, I would love to say thank you to her. But if somehow someone can get her message and just tell her that she helped me and didn't even know she was helping someone thank you for making this episode of Dan Snow's History. I really appreciate listening to this podcast. I love doing these podcasts. It's a highlight of my career.

It's the best thing I've ever done. And your support, your listening is obviously crucial for that project. If you did feel like doing me a favour, if you go to wherever you get your podcasts and give it a review, give it a rating, obviously a good one, ideally, then that would be fantastic and feel free to share it. We obviously depend on listeners, depend on more and more people finding out about it, depend on good reviews to keep the listeners coming in. Really appreciate it.

Thank you. you