Dan Snow's History Hit - A Strange Bit of History

Episode Date: March 29, 2020

We were delighted to have comedy royalty on the podcast. Omid Djalili talked to me about one of his earliest stage creations, first performed at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival in 1993. Over the next four years it was performed 109 times in 10 different countries. The backdrop of this epic storytelling piece was the tumultuous expectation for a Promised One in Persia in 1844. The claims made by a young merchant of Shiraz - who became known as the Bab - caused a revolution, and laid the foundations for the Baha'i Faith - which numbers some seven million followers around the world today. Omid, who grew up in an Iranian Baha'i family, gave a fascinating insight into his relationship with history, comedy and family. Enjoy. For ad free versions of our entire podcast archive and hundreds of hours of history documentaries, interviews and films, including our new in depth documentary about the bombing war featuring James Holland and other historians, please signup to www.HistoryHit.TV Use code 'pod1' for a month free and the first month for just £/€/$1.For information regarding your data privacy, visit acast.com/privacy

Hello everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. I'm recording this from the History Hit bunker, news just in. That whilst a Russian fleet is on manoeuvres off the east coast of England, the heir to the throne and the First Lord of the Treasury, the Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, have both got this pandemic disease. That's a sentence I never thought I'd be speaking, even just a few weeks ago. But there we are. On the podcast this episode, we've got Omid Jalili. He's a wonderful actor, he's a comedian, and he's a writer too. And I'm going to talk to him about his new show, in which he plays about a million different characters himself. And it's all about 19th century Persia, based on a true story. I talked to him about his fascination with history. So many creative people,

so many poets, directors, comedians that we've had on the podcast just are obsessed with history. It's great to see their fellow travellers and Ahmed is definitely one of them. Lovely, lovely man. Got to reminisce a little bit about him playing the part of the slave trader in Gladiator.

Little did I imagine when I watched Gladiator for the first time as a first year undergrad student in an empty cinema in Oxford that one day I'd be chatting away to one of the actors in there about the experience. So it's as ever such an honour to be on this podcast and talk to these wonderful people. It's also an honour to be involved in History Hit TV. It's been strange times because in these times of isolation, these times of homeschooling, we've had a huge number of people signing up to History Hit TV. Thank you very much for that. It's all come as a bit of a shock. We're slightly overwhelmed actually, but we're going to do our best to make sure that we do try and meet the demand for teaching aids, supporting teachers

and parents. They try and keep their kids enthused and and learning through these really difficult times we're sort of gearing up we're gearing up you can get history hit tv for free for a month and then another month for just one pound euro or dollar so it's basically just one pound just for the first two months which should hopefully hopefully see us through this crisis if you use the code pod1 pod1 when you check out so please go and do that there are hundreds of history documentaries on there we've made we've lined them up by educational tier so you should be able to see if you're if you want to get it for your kids you'll be able to hopefully see relevant content for the ages and the stages that they're at and the topics as well. So thank you. Thank you very much. Lastly, I'm very excited that I've got my big collaboration

with the world's biggest history YouTube channel, Timeline. They're a fantastic YouTube channel. They have lots of documentaries on there for free. And we are now doing regular slots on there, talking to some of the world's best historians, basically doing history hit lives on there. So please go to Timeline on YouTube and check out the history hit lives on there so please go to timeline on youtube and check out the history hit lives as well in the meantime everyone at the end of this week of

isolation i hope we're not all going too crazy at home i hope things are going well i hope that the vast majority of people listening to this will will avoid getting sick we've had a couple of people on the team get sick thankfully they're looking like they've all recovered really well. And because we stood the team down and isolated them all quite a long time ago, we've played our small part. History Hit's played its small part in making sure that the disease hasn't spread. For those few of you who are in the middle of it, I hope you get well and I hope you find that listening to History Hit enables you to get to sleep quicker. I'm sure it does. Enjoy, Ahmed, everyone. Well, thank you so much for coming on.

This is an honour to have comedy royalty here. It's an honour to be here. I think you're my first Gladiator veteran as well, which is exciting. Gladiator, when I famously had my nether regions grabbed by Oliver Reed. He grabbed your balls. He grabbed my balls, yes. And he said to me, are you a method actor? I don't know if I've told you that there's a story behind that

where he said to me, are you a method actor? And I said, yeah. Because in the original script, he's supposed to punch me. OK. And we had, yeah, because in the original script, you're supposed to punch me. OK. And we had a little conflab. And Ridley Scott always had this guy. He goes, we're going to cut the punch. We want him to grab you.

Are you all right with that? And I said, whatever you want, Mr. Scott, whatever. Yeah, sure. I'm just glad to be here, buddy. And Oliver Reed said, we'll deal with it. And he goes, are you a method actor? And I said, I didn't know what it meant. I'm like, yeah.

He goes, do you mind if I really grab you? I said, just grab me. He goes, do you mind if I really grab you? I said, just grab me. He goes, no, but can I go under the tunic? And I said, what do you mean go under the tunic? He goes, just lift up. And I go under the tunic, make it more realistic. And I said, how would that work? Why would you do that?

He goes, no, the camera won't see it. We'll do a close-up afterwards. But if you allow me to just come up to me, lift up your tunic, I go under, I grab you, and then we'll do the scene up here. Gay giraffes. Yeah, it was all that gay giraffe stuff. And then I did the rehearsal, and I said, is this working? And then Ridley Scott was saying, I didn't know there was all a trick there playing on

me. And he grabbed me, and then we're ready for a take. And he goes, you're right, lift it up. So I come up, I say, Proxima, my old friend, lift up the tunic. He's having me go in, and he'd hold me. right lift it up so I come up I'd say I said Proxima my old friend is how we go in hold me and we do the scene and they shouted cut off the first thing and then usually they'll have a cup of tea but he carried on holding me in between the takes on this so I held and I just just asked him just try to be not not just

that you enjoying the hotel is fine and then by take three or four he started moving me around and I just thought is this a wind up and it was but you know in those days this is like

I could have like taken them to court for some kind of abuse but I just thought this was all kind of like male

lads on tour yeah that's what I thought because they all knew I was a bit scared of him as well I kind of stayed in my room away from

when they were all like drinking at night just stayed in my room quietly because he was a real rabble rous knew I was a bit scared of him as well I kind of stayed in my room away from when they were all like drinking at night just in my room quietly because he was a real rabble rouser I was a bit scared of him but uh anyway sorry but you like lots of you like lots of comedians uh history is a valuable history is a big reservoir for you guys history is huge for us yeah we we take history very very, the accuracy of history and we talk about a lot of stand-up routines are about what's real, what's not, so yeah. Isn't that, yeah, because I was watching one about the sort of returning stolen goods to people that are in the British Museum of the Day and the one you're touring at the moment

is about, I never know how to pronounce that like millenarianism um millennial millennial expectation for the return of christ around 18 between 1843 and 1845 all kinds of madness was going on how did you land on that particular well i'm a baha'i and then the baha'i faith started around this particular period of time but i was very interested from a historical point of view that this was something that a lot of people were expecting. There was the Millerites who were now the Seventh-day Adventists. And it wasn't just that, it was Christians. I even read that there were kind of Buddhists and Chinese people were like that the Messiah will come in

the West. So they were going from like east to west and all seemed to be congregating in Persia at that time. Whilst at the same time people were expecting Christ to come on a cloud in the west. You know like the Monty Python sketch, it goes, well, same again tomorrow and all that kind of stuff. So I just was fascinated that actually there was this global fever for this expectation for some kind of momentous thing to happen. And what the play is saying that something did actually happen and it's up to people to decide what it was because it was so tumultuous 20 000 people killed there's a lot of executions and craziness and there were profit figures and there were people dying for a noble cause. So I wanted to really look into it

and see if there's a great one-man show that we can do about it because it's not even a forgotten period of history because this is all recorded in British history. It's all recorded in the Times newspaper. People were going out, people like Professor Edward Granville Brown. A lot of the early suffragettes were hearing these stories, or people who became suffragettes, that there was this faith talking about the equality of men and women

and all that, and they got very inspired. So there was this tremendous, I suppose, movement and excitement and inspiration and people going backwards and forwards to the Middle East and coming back and talking about it. And it was just a very exciting period. So the play captures what was going on then. Well, it doesn't seem like the most obvious topic. I mean, what was it about it that attracted you? Is there a modern resonance with whether it's climate or people getting nervous about things like what or Trumpism? Yes, I think that the

this is a play i did many years ago it was it won it won the big award it won lots of awards and things and you know what you you forget about it because i i always look back at my days as a kind of young actor as someone who just wanted to well you're still young i'm still a young actor but i just wanted to do fresh original stuff and and it was story that I was raised with and no one had actually put it into any kind of dramatic context and when we put it together it was so well received by people who don't know anything about the Baha'i Faith, they don't know anything about this period and we had a lot of scholars come along and say yes this is absolutely right and And then we did it again in the British Library in 2019, just last year.

And there was a bloke who saw it in 1993 and said, would you do it again? And I said, what's it for? He said, it's for the bicentenary of the birth of one of these prophet figures. And I said, what do you remember, Barrett? What do you remember? And he said, not much much man to be honest because i was off my head i was on drinking drugs at the edmund festival but he goes i do remember that you had you played this executioner and this executioner was killing people and talking about it and i just thought i just thought you know it's time the executioners had their say because no one no one asked an executioner and i

thought that was very interesting and then he said i just remember time the executioners had their say. Because no one asked an executioner, and I thought that was very interesting. And then he said, I just remember when the executioner then meets the prophet figure, and they have this moment, and there are no words between them, but then the executioner expresses it in a Wicked Bongo solo.

I just want to see that again. So he did it again, and all these Oxford dons and all these kind of historical people came along and said, yes, what you don't know is this and yes, that was absolutely accurate. Then somebody came along who was the great, great, great grandson of one of the executioners that we're talking about and he showed us a photograph. It was a photograph that really affected me because they're saying this particular executioner

who was killing all these Barbies and Baha'is these two people two groups of people who had espoused this new faith he was killing them all and then an event they've caught the photograph ten seconds before an event that changed his life and they emailed it to me and I couldn't believe it because in those days they used to kill these Barbies by these new people who professed a new faith they used to put them in front of a cannon and blow them to pieces. So there's a photograph of a guy. And this is in Persia?

This is in Persia, yeah. It's in Persia. The photograph is from 1849. We actually put the photograph in the show now, and there's a credit section. And it's moments before they blow this guy up, and the executioner stood behind as normal. You stand behind the cannon,

blow this guy to pieces and then you pick up the pieces and bring the next one but apparently a bit of flesh flew back somehow and hit him on the shoulder and totally affected him i know this all sounds a bit gory but he um then became he espoused this faith we understand that that he then executed himself. But all his generations espoused this particular faith and they totally supported this play and totally said, you're absolutely right. And it was other scholars and people seem to know about this particular character.

So since then, I've had a lot of historical validation. Because, you know, you do a piece and you think, should we just play around with this bit of history? And then every time we've played around with it a little bit, we've actually been proved right, you know. So in the play, we also have a kind of tea party in the 1890s in the home counties where people used to talk about this. And there's a character who was called Millicent,

and her aunt is trying to marry her off to somebody. And then we said, she's first heard about equality of men and women, maybe we should make her Millicent Fawcett, who was a famous suffragette. And then people from Cambridge came along and said, you're absolutely right. Millicent Fawcett first heard about this

from people who came over talking about this crazy thing that was going on, this faith that was espousing equality members. You're absolutely right, that's where she first heard it. In fact, she was supposed to go. She was supposed to go and meet the son of the prophet figure, but just never went. So any turn that we've

done where we've tried to make it a little bit kind of, are we playing around with history, has turned out to be correct. You're like Hilary hillary mantel i mean historians are queuing up saying she's probably right we're probably wrong yeah exactly right about crumb land a viking longship on island shores scramble over the dunes of ancient egypt and avoid the poisoner's cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer.

Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. But does it matter? I often ask the actors and the directors I get on here, does it matter to you that you are getting that validation from the history side?

It does, very much. Because I want it to be accurate and I want it to be... Even a film like Gladiator, when you look back, I'm sure a lot of that is... I mean, you know it's a film when there are helicopter shots of Rome. You can see everything. So you know that they're playing around with creativity. You never get a shot like that. But a lot of that, I remember working on that and I remember asking Ridley Scott, so was Commodus killed?

And he was saying, well, some of it is fictitious. We're playing around with it. But it's very clear that we don't want to get nonsense from historians so as long as we keep the basis of it based in truth then we're okay because actually with the things that really happen is what the lessons for us in future generations about what really happened and is it particularly true because you're making a show that's about your it's about your identity as well yes it is because I was raised in Britain I'm a I'm a second generation Iranian fifth generation Baha'i so my forefathers were kind of traveling troubadours they were travel around

there were poets that's why we have poets in the show as well who are based in modern times it's me kind of saying this is me five generations back my family were traveling troubadours where they'd go around and do their poetry, set up a tent, and people would give them alms and money, and that was it. There's like passing a hat around. And then they became Baha'is,

and then they went around after their poetry, they said, look, we're gonna have a meeting if anybody wants to hear more about this, and then they get chased out. A lot of people become Baha'is a lot of people would try and kill them so poetry was something that I really wanted to have in the show as part of my heritage but also as a second generation Iranian I always struggled being raised you know being raised in the 1970s as you know an Iranian looking kid and I did a lot to kind of make myself look more Iranian

I was 14 I had a moustache I was already fully developed I had man boobs when I was like 15 and I just looked very dark and there weren't that many Iranian kids around and also it would have been okay if they thought I was a Muslim but I wasn't a Muslim I was part of this Baha'i faith it was what's that so there was always confusion around me and I've always said I'm a minority within a minority within a minority within a minority because I'm a British, I'm not British, I'm Iranian and even amongst the Iranians I'm not a Muslim, I'm a Baha'i so I'm a minority and even within the Baha'i community people thought my family were weird and then even within my family I thought they were all weird.

So I'm kind of, the kind of levels of cosmic kind of isolation are quite deep with me. But that's why doing this one particular play is me, I suppose, struggling to reclaim my identity and really say, actually, also from a historical point of view. This is this is a period of history Which I don't think we've paid enough attention to and the people who did pay attention to it kind of Ignoring it now. I mean there was an amazing thing that happened where this prophet figure was was executed

Excuse me was executed and it was covered in the Times newspaper that it was seen as some kind of crazy miracle where in those days they didn't just kill you. They had to bring out a regiment of 500 people and they were with bayonets. They'd shoot and then there'd be massive smoke. You have to wait for the smoke to clear. Then you go and pick up the bodies.

And they've usually enmeshed into each other and been hit by so many bullets. And this particular prophet figure, the Bab, was his name. And he was going to be killed with someone with him. And when they shot, and before it happened, the leader of the regiment, who was a guy called Sam Khan, who was a Christian, went up to him and said, look, this is our job. We really don't want to do this.

Is there anything you can do? And he said to him, if your intention is sincere, it will all be taken care of. I went, okay. And they shot. And when the smoke cleared, the barb and his, they disappeared.

And there was pandemonium. They couldn't find him. They found him back in his cell finishing off a conversation with his secretary. He said, I wasn't finished yet. It wasn't time for me to die yet. Like the prophets of God, they choose when to die like when Jesus on the cross it's not like as if they've killed you when Jesus chooses like you can kill me now he wasn't ready then so then that group that regiment left said well that's that's our sign we're gone they brought in another regiment

of 750 people now we don't know if't know what the exact miracle was. In those days they used to hold them up by ropes and apparently the gunshots severed the ropes. So it could be that 500 people didn't want to do it and they just lifted up. That could be the miracle. But still that is kind of miraculous that they did that. And this was covered in the Times newspaper there was some there were people this story by the way that we talked about in the show was in the newspapers all the time around 1850s in fact I did the show in Ireland and a historian said if you look at the Roscommon times people used to sit down

at you know for breakfast say now what's going on in Persia now in the 1850s? What's happened to the Bab? Has he been killed yet? So it was serialised and people were talking about it. But it's interesting, nobody has really, no film's been made about it, no one. So I'm hoping to start interest with this and get maybe proper filmmakers and proper historians to really go away and put together and make a film about it because it could be a big Hollywood blockbuster, you never know. Fingers crossed. filmmakers and proper historians to really go away and put together and make a film about it because

it could be a big Hollywood blockbuster you never know. Fingers crossed and I guess the problem is it's an orphan story because Iran in the theocracy they're not interested in this apostasy. Absolutely not. I had Iranians to see the show they were laughing. I said why are you laughing? In a good way because this is our heritage but if you even put the show on they wouldn't let you perform it you'd five minutes in that arrest you they put you in prison because this is not the story that we tell in in history classes and if we do it's very distorted those there was a mad group of people and they were suppressed they were all killed off so that's that's how iranian people are grown i went to university. When I was at university,

I played for a football team called the Persian Empire. I played for the university football team, but there was a five-a-side league. And I joined up with the other Iranians, and we got to the final. And you know, at the university, there's about 100 teams. So to get to the final, you've got to get through 16 rounds. And we got to the final and before the final I got dropped because they found out I was a Bahá'í they said you're a Bahá'í I said yeah and they were like what the hell we know about you people and I said first of all what's new people we're all Iranians is it and I remember them being really upset and then before the final they dropped me from the team

because I'd joined their team. They were third years and I was a fresher. And they made a decision to drop me from the team. And then they lost in the final. And I'd kind of got them to the final. I was the one scoring all the goals and everything. So I was really shocked and surprised. And then one of them said,

I really need to ask you questions about this because you look like a normal bloke. I said, I am a normal bloke. He goes, but the things we've been taught about the Baha'i faith are abnormal. I said, would you like to tell me? And he said, is it true that, and this is the kind of things he was taught, that in your meetings you play a kind of blind man's buff game. I said, what's that?

Like someone has to put on a blindfold and they walk around, they touch someone on the back. And whoever that is, even if it's your mum, you have to have sex with them there and then i said what are you what is that sounds totally i said i said that that is where did you hear that because that's what i was taught at school i said you were taught that at school because this is why this is after they dropped me because this is why we dropped you from the team we can't we don't want to be infected by you and i said how he could spiritually and we'd be infected by you It would actually we'd probably not get our degrees. We actually made a decision. He's gonna jinx it. So let's keep him out the team and Years later one of them came to my stand-up shows and I brought him up on stage

And I said is there something like to tell me and he said yes I do and I said I have to explain we're in a team. I'm a Baha'i then Muslims They taught me from the team and I never I have to explain. We're in a team. I'm a Baha'i. They're Muslims. They dropped me from the team and I never got to play the final. I'm sure he wants to. He goes, yeah, we dropped you. It wasn't because you were Baha'i. It was because you're crap.

And he got the biggest laugh I've ever had. I'm not surprised. And I was actually very upset by it because I had no comeback to it. I said, sit down. I said, sit down. I didn't really deal with it comedically. So is that because...

I've thought of you as a fan, as someone who's able to move, just pick up these identities. I mean, I know lots of comedians try, but you are, I think, unique in your ability to just pick up these identities and then just put them down again. Is that a product of that life, of that journey? Yes, absolutely, because you have to understand, at a very important part of my life, you know, in the Baha'i Faith, we talk about you have to understand, at a very important part of my life,

you know, in the Baha'i faith, we talk about this 12 to 15 is a very important, it's a kind of the age a lot of people dismiss kids, but actually where I come from and the faith I was raised with, this is the most, you're a sponge, and this is really where you form the basis of what your future life is going to be and for me between 12 and 15 we had the islamic revolution was going on on television between 78 and kind of 80 81 and i i took on different identities with different people at parties i just said my name is chico i'm from italy i just pretended i was something else so i would speak with a slight Italian accent.

I had to create a whole character for myself. Yeah, we're from Sicily and my family came over, they opened up a pizza. Is that because you were? I didn't want to be Iranian, I was hiding. I didn't want to be, and it's not just me, there were a few others. I had a friend of mine called Kishan Manocha,

who was an Indian Baha'i, and he became um i think patrick something who's like he had a very english name and he was like a tory support member of the tory party and he became he we used to create personas for ourselves in parties where people at school wouldn't see us so he was pat, the member of the Tory party, I was Chico from Sicily and it was a role I played on Saturday nights when I'd go out at parties and people would say, do you have to change your name? And I'd say, shut up, this is who I am now, for the next couple of hours, don't blow my cover. So I think that's probably where I picked up acting skills and so I think it was a survival it was it was a survival thing it was a survival because the impact of a young boy 13 14 where his people are on television

smacking their heads and looking like Islamic fundamentalists this is not it's not it's not attractive for girls at the time who just thought oh my god a Uranian but it was like the worst thing so I never had a girlfriend I was ostracized I remember really clearly in a Latin class these girls were passing bits of paper like who do you fancy they're all bored and I could see it and one of them said yeah and someone put I like Omid And my name was there. Literally, my heart was racing. And it wasn't the prettiest girl, but someone said,

are you mad? He's awful. And then she went, yeah, give it back. And she crossed it out. I was cancelled. I was cancelled straight away. One girl, one ugly girl thought I was attractive, and then I was cancelled.

So you spent your teenage years pretending you were other things, and now you're spending your days pretending that you're visiting your troubadour minstrel grandfather i am yes now acting yourself i'm acting myself i'm acting him and i'm also i'm doing 19 characters in this show it's 19 and it's it's not so much even i don't think i fully pull it off it was 19 characters and i think it might be a record. I don't know. I'm not sure. I've got to find out. But 19 specific characters.

I mean, there are a few characters that come in just for like two, three seconds, but I've still got to make them quite distinct. So, yes, I'm trying to... I'm just trying to capture a period of time in one hour with 19 characters. Having hidden your past, I'm broadcasting it in the most unimaginably public way. In terms of representation, and we joked about Gladiator when you were forced to play a cliched North African slave dealer, have you experienced that in your career? Have you been pigeonholed by your background?

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I used to joke about it. When I did the James, there was a James Bond film called The World Is Not Enough. And I was joking around on set. They goes, are you sure you're being pigeonholed again? And I said, excuse me, I'm known as an Arabs Comeback Specialist,

but in this film, I'm playing the second Azerbaijani oil pipe attendant. That's a major departure for me in my career. Central Asian. People thought I was mad. I was like, this is huge. But actually it was the same accent. Exactly the same.

So I think there was one film where I played Picasso. Actually I was very happy because I was 36 and I was playing Picasso, age 36. It was a film about the Italian painter Modigliani, and it was his relationship with Picasso. It was a film with Andy Garcia. Again, it wasn't released in Britain. It did very well in America and Europe.

For some reason, it was never released in England, in Britain. And that was interesting. That was the first time somebody just trusted that I could play a different character and I said why have you chosen me because your eyes are Picasso and I looked at Picasso's eyes and actually the just the eye sockets are pretty similar but the I remember thinking that they said you've got to lose weight and you have to shave off your hair I got some hair on my back and I remember I did it and I hadn't fully lost the weight and I was painting with my top off and they said

Put your shirt back on. This is not Picasso and it's really awful. So just put your shirt back on. So I didn't fully capture the essence of Picasso but it was nice that they trusted me with that role. Well I hope everyone trusts you enough to come and watch you. How do people come and watch the show? I'll be at the Edinburgh Festival at the Pleasance at 3.50pm. It's exactly one hour because I know... Actually, I'm trying to make it...

I've got to shave two minutes off it because it's an hour, but I want to make it 58 because people want to go to another show. But it'll be there. And I really hope that... I've set myself a very difficult thing to do. I'm trying to get the most serious thing ever said in a play, done in the most entertaining way. So there's bongos, there's dancing,

there is poetry, and there's a lot of insanity. And I think there's some laughs in it as well. And lots of 19th century judicial murder. Well, also, you have to, not just that, but you have to suspend your imagination because I'm playing a few English society ladies, which as a Balderanian man with a beard, it does require a bit of imagination.

Amazing. Well, I hope everyone goes and watches that. But thank you very much i hope you enjoyed the podcast just before you go bit of a favor to ask i totally understand if you don't want to become a subscriber or pay me any cash money makes sense but if you could just do me a favorites for free go to itunes or wherever you get your podcast if you give it a five-star rating and give it an absolutely glowing review, purge yourself, give it a glowing review, I'd really appreciate that. It's tough weather, the law of the jungle out there, and I need all the fire support I can get. So that will boost it up the charts. It's so tiresome, but if you could do it,

I'd be very, very grateful. Thank you. you