Dan Snow's History Hit - Achilles

Episode Date: October 3, 2023

This episode contains themes of a sexual natureAchilles is one of the greatest heroes in Greek mythology. The son of Peleus, a Greek King, and Thetis, a divine sea nymph, Achilles was a demigod with extraordinary strength and courage. The perfect combination to make a great warrior, he is perhaps best known from Homer's epic poem the Iliad, which details his adventures in the final year of the Trojan War.He's also gone down in history for his passionate love for his companion, Patroclus. Sources and mythology differ as to the nature of their relationship, and in this episode, we ask the question: was it really erotic? What do the sources say? Does our definition of love differ from that of the Ancient Greeks? And, how did it inspire one of the greatest military generals in history: Alexander of Macedon?To help explore these themes, host Tristan Hughes is joined by returning guest Professor Alastair Blanshard from the University of Queensland.Voiceover: Lucy DavidsonScript Writer: Andrew HulseEditor: Aidan LonerganAssistant Producer: Annie ColoeSenior Producer: Elena GuthrieDiscover the past on History Hit with ad-free original podcasts and documentaries released weekly presented by world-renowned historians like Dan Snow, Suzannah Lipscomb, Lucy Worsley, Matt Lewis, Tristan Hughes and more. Get 50% off your first 3 months with code DANSNOW. Download the app or sign up here.PLEASE VOTE HERE for Dan Snow’s History Hit in the 'Best Individual Episode - History' category for the 2023 Signal Awards. Every vote counts, thank you!We'd love to hear from you! You can email the podcast at [e-mail] can take part in our listener survey here.

Hey folks, Dan Snow here. Welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. On this episode, we're going to share an episode of a sibling podcast that's gone bonkers over on the ancients, the smash hit presented by Tristan Hughes, the Tristorian. It's about Achilles. How can everyone not love this? Achilles is one of the greatest heroes of Greek mythology. Well, is he? Find out more. This is everything you need to know about Achilles. Did he have an erotic relationship with Patroclus or were they just good buddies? And how did he inspire one of history's greatest real world commanders, Alexander the Great? All the answers here. Enjoy. Sing, muses. Sing to me a story of heroes and the deathless gods who govern earth, sea and sky. That is what Alexander of Macedon asks.

For years, ever since he heard the tales of Troy, he has dreamt of seeing it. A place suffused with history, with legend. And now that he is here, he can feel the muses close by. The lap of the tide, the whistle of the wind. These are their singing, their dancing, their playing of the lyre and the flute. They're dancing. They're playing of the lyre and the flute. But there is one story he wishes to hear above all others. That is why he has left his army in the plain below and climbed to this weather-beaten monument upon the coast. He has not gone alone. He climbs with a man his own age, Hephaestion,

his companion, his confidant, his lover. They work together to shed their armour. And the process is quick. They are accustomed to the angle of the straps upon each other's gilded greaves, the position of the ties upon each other's gilded greaves, the position of the ties upon each other's bronze blades. They disarm because they wish to stand before the monument not as soldiers, but as men. They come because they wish to hear the story of Achilles and Patroclus. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and in today's episode we're focusing on one of the most well-known heroes of the Trojan War, of Homer's Iliad, Achilles.

Trojan War of Homer's Iliad, Achilles. Now there's so much to Achilles' story from his heel to his clash with Hector and so on and so forth but today we're going to be delving into a particular aspect of Achilles' story and that is his relationship with Patroclus. This is a part of Achilles' story that has been discussed again and again and again since ancient Greek times. We're going to be talking about figures such as Plato and his Symposium, but also later writers such as Athenaeus and even a bit of Shakespeare too, and his play Troilus and Cressida. Now this episode we're following a special format similar to how we do our Greek Gods and Goddesses series. We're going to proceed the main interview

with a retelling of the Achilles and Patroclus myth. Following that retelling, we've got an interview with a man who's been at the centre of the ancients from its beginning. And I mean that because he is none other than Professor Alistair Blanchard from the University of Queensland. Now, Alistair, he was the guest for our very, very first Ancients episode ever released, The Plague of Athens. So you can always find Alistair right at the start. He is there and it was a pleasure to get him back on to talk all things Achilles and Patroclus.

pleasure to get him back on to talk all things Achilles and Patroclus. Now I must also mention, fair warning, that themes of a sexual nature do feature in today's episode, so if this episode's not for you, quite understand, but if you're now even more intrigued, then listen on. I really do hope you enjoy. Here's the story, and then here's Alistair. the story, and then here's Alistair. The Muses set their scene in the eye of a storm, a single Greek tent on the beaches of Troy. Beyond its canvas walls, the beating of drums and the blast of horns sound a muster. The drums and the blast of horns sound a muster. The Trojans have stormed the beach, putting so many ships to flame that the dawning sun shines as little more than a dirtied rind through the smoke. Now the Greeks are scrabbling, every soldier reaching for his armour, his weapons, in panic.

But inside the tent, all is calm. The only sounds are the creak of leather and the clink of metal. The occupants are two men, two soldiers. Swift-footed Achilles, the finest warrior in the Greek army, and Patroclus, his companion, his confidant, his lover. Only one of them is arming, though. Achilles will not fight. Agamemnon, the Greek king, has insulted him grievously. He has deprived

him of his war prizes, his glory. And now Achilles says nothing will return him to this war. No argument, no entreaty, no number of Greek dead. Patroclus is not so implacable. From the mouth of their tent, he has seen the wounded return each day. He has heard their wails. And with the Trojans so close, he can stand by no longer. If you will not take up your arms and armour to inspire the Greeks, I will. And Achilles sees that same obstinacy that has kept him from the fight reflected in Patroclus' desire to enter it. Already, Achilles' refusal has festered like a splinter in the flesh of their bond, red and raw and quick to irritation.

Every day they have quarrelled. Only the depth of their love for one another has seen them nightly reconciled. To refuse Patroclus now would be to lose him forever. And so Achilles agrees. Achilles is unaccustomed to arming another. He is unaccustomed to the angle of the straps upon his gilded greaves, the position of the ties upon his bronze blade. But he remains silent

so that the only sounds are the creak of leather and the clink of metal. He stands behind Patroclus, places his cuirass against the man's back and begins to tighten the fastenings. It is an imperfect fit. Patroclus is taller, his chest is broader, and the hardened leather of the armour does not quite meet.

The gap is just wide enough for Achilles to run a finger between, to feel the warm skin beneath. Patroclus leans into the touch, and the two share a look, a smile. But it barely hides Achilles' concern. The width of the finger. That is the width of a spearhead, too. And its touch will not be so gentle. He tells Patroclus so.

My armour will not protect you for long. Just enough for you to push the Trojans back from the beach. You must not carry on the assault to the high walls of Troy, promise me. Patroclus nods his agreement, but he laughs too. After all, who else but swift-footed Achilles could think of leading an assault on Troy now, when a mere defence of the Greek camp is already so desperate. It is his talent for war, his hunger for glory, it blinds Achilles to the limits of other men. But Patroclus is blind too, and it is exactly because he does not have Achilles' talent for war That he does not know it like Achilles does Patroclus understands war in terms of tactics and strategy These virtues of wise Athena

He has never tasted those vices of blood-soaked Ares He has never fought in vices of blood-soaked Ares. He has never fought in the melee at its thickest, where the god dances from blade to blade, slipping into men's hearts and minds as that most fatal intoxicant. Bloodlust. It obliterates all other concerns. You think not of safety.

You care not for glory. You forget even that promise you made to your companion, your confidant, your lover. The final item is Achilles' ashen spear. It stands proud and unused upon the rack outside. When Achilles presses it into Patroclus' hands, there are no more words to be said. They couldn't even be heard over the storm that rages about the tent.

So all they share is a nod. Then Patroclus is swept up in the throng, pumping the spear above his head till the Greek war cry splits the sky. Achilles keeps his eye on its glinting bronze head and reminds himself one final time. To refuse Patroclus now would be to lose him forever. But another thought intrudes upon his mind. It comes piercing like the head of a spear through the gap in Aquirus. Nothing will return Achilles to this war. No argument.

No entreaty. No number of Greek dead. Except one. of Greek dead, except one. Alistair, it's a pleasure to have you back on the podcast. Great to be back. Thank you for the invite. You're more than welcome. And for a topic like this, so Achilles, and I guess Achilles and Patroclus, but let's start with Achilles. Who was Achilles? Right. So Achilles, one of the really great heroes of the ancient world, probably the most famous

of the heroes, the son of Peleus and the goddess Thetis. So he's a semi-divine figure. And indeed, the story behind his birth is quite interesting because his mother, Thetis, was always destined to produce a son that was much greater than the father. And this prophecy that attended Achilles' mother always worried the gods because the concern was, well, look, if a god impregnates her, the child might be an offspring that would kind of overthrow the divine order, someone who could challenge Zeus himself. And so one of the things that they're very keen to do is marry Thetis off to a mortal so that she can produce an amazing child, but certainly one that won't affect the divine order. And so, that's what happens. So, Thetis is not particularly keen

to be married, but the gods help Peleus catch her as a wife. And when I say catch her as a wife, literally catch her. So, there's this description of Peleus going, grabbing Thetis. And Thetis, of course, is a sea goddess. And one of the things about sea goddesses is that they can change their shape. So she starts to change her shape. She turns into a snake. She turns into a lion. She turns into all these animals. And he keeps grabbing onto her, refusing to let her go until eventually she's defeated. And so Thetis and Peleus are married, and they produce a bouncing baby boy in the form of Achilles. And in regards to Achilles, what's there for the story about how he almost all parts of his body becomes immortal? Right, yes. So, this is the story about Thetis,

who really wants to protect her son, wants to ensure that, in fact, her son will never suffer any kind of damage. And so what she does is she takes the young infant and dips him in the river Styx. And this will make him absolutely invulnerable to any form of a weapon, blade, and so forth. But unfortunately, she makes the mistake of holding him by his heel as she dips him into the water, because you have to hold him by something. And this means that no water touches the heel, and so therefore he's vulnerable in the heel. And this means that eventually this will be his downfall, literally his Achilles' heel. Literally his Achilles' heel. Well, let's therefore go ahead to the story, therefore,

of Achilles in the Trojan War. So what is the background to Achilles, of all the Greek heroes, of Achilles going to Troy? So, it's a very interesting story. So, the thing about Achilles is Achilles is a person who knows that he's doomed to die, right? And so, he knows that if he goes to Troy, this is essentially a death sentence. And he knows it, his family knows it. And indeed, they try and, in fact, stop him going to Troy. So, they, in fact, hide him on the island of Skyros when Agamemnon and Odysseus are rounding up all the greatest heroes to go off to Troy. They're assembling their best men, and they know that Achilles is a fantastic fighter, wonderful speedster, just an all-round hyper-virile person, the kind of person you'd

want as part of your team. So they go and try and recruit him. Well, they can't find him. And so what's happened is that they've hidden him amongst the daughters of the king of Scyros. So in fact, Achilles is cross-dressing at this point. So he's wearing makeup, he's in his finery. Now, Odysseus knows or suspects that there's something not right about one of the daughters of the king of Scyros. And so, he tries to think, well, look, I'm sure that they've hidden Achilles amongst the daughters. But in the ancient world, women are secluded. You can't just barge into women's quarters and start looking under their dresses to see who's who. And so, Odysseus has to invent a stratagem

to decide how he's going to work out which is, in fact, Achilles. And so Odysseus has to invent a stratagem to decide how he's going to kind of work out which is, in fact, Achilles. And so what he does is he lays out all these absolutely beautiful ornaments, these golden jewels, these necklaces, these diadems out in front of the daughters. But in amongst them, he also puts a sword. And at a secret signal, But in amongst them, he also puts a sword. At a secret signal, he orders one of his men outside to blow a horn and to announce that the palace is under attack. Well, when the women hear that the palace is under attack, they grab the jewels and run. But Achilles leaps forward, grabs the sword to defend them, and at that point, outs himself. So, Odysseus knows who is Achilles. It's a kind of wonderful story, I think,

about gender binaries and about the way in which gender is, at least for the Greeks, a very essential kind of idea. So, the idea that even though Achilles might be dressed as a woman, maybe imitating a woman, at those kind of key moments, his masculinity will reassert itself, and he'll leap forward, grab the sword, and charge into battle. So anyway, Achilles is outed, Odysseus gets his man, and off they go to Troy. And so who accompanies Achilles? Does Achilles have a band of followers who go with him to Troy? He does. So these band of followers are called the Myrmidons, and they are essentially his crewmates, the people whose retinue. And of course, amongst them is the great Boone companion, his great friend, lover, Patroclus as well. And together,

they go off to Troy. And so, yeah, let's focus on Patroclus now. So, exactly who was Patroclus and his relationship to Achilles? Right. So, Patroclus is the son of a nearby royal family. He's a slightly troubled child. So, as a young man, he gets into a fight over a knuckle bones incident. He loses at knuckle bones, and he's so outraged at his loss of knuckle bones that he ends up killing the boy who beats him at knuckle bones. Now, this is a bit of scandal. He needs to be moved out of the palace. And also, I mean, one of the things about murder in the ancient world is that along with it comes this idea of pollution. So, he's a polluted individual. He's got blood guilt on his hands. And so, they need to negotiate getting him out of the place. And so, Helios very kindly takes him in

as a companion for Achilles. So, they're really companions from the very earlier stages. Achilles is slightly younger, but they're great boon companions. And indeed, I mean, all sorts of stories. Homer doesn't tell us anything about the kind of childhood of Achilles and Patroclus, but later writers do invent stories about them. One of the interesting stories I quite like is Homer describes Patroclus as the first horseman or the great horseman, and this interested grammarians. In fact, the later grammarian invents this whole kind of backstory for it about how the god Poseidon fell in love with Patroclus. I mean, everyone seems to fall in love with Patroclus, right? To woo him introduces him to the horse because Poseidon is both the god of the sea, but he's also the god

of horses, trains Patroclus as a great horseman. And that's why Homer refers to him as the first horseman. But we don't really know a lot about the childhood of Achilles and Patroclus, but people have tried to fill the gaps. Well, you mentioned Homer there, so let's go on to the story in the Iliad. The story of Achilles and Patroclus in the Iliad, what is told? It's this great tragic story, right? I mean, at the very centre of the Iliad is the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus. So the opening lines of the Iliad are, you know, sing muses of the wrath of Achilles. And it's the anger of Achilles in all sorts of different ways that is really the great theme that flows through the Iliad.

And he's angry for two reasons. One, because he's slighted by Agamemnon. They get into a dispute over a woman. But again, his other great anger is when Patroclus, his great companion, is killed, and that rage drives him forward as he murders Hector. But yes, the story of the Iliad is a story of essentially Achilles basically sulking for books. It opens with the gods punishing the Greeks for having abducted the daughter of a priest of Apollo. She's ended up in the retinue of Agamemnon. The gods punish the Greeks. They send a plague onto the Greek forces. Agamemnon is forced to give up this woman, but he's king of the Greeks, they send a plague onto the Greek forces. Agamemnon is forced to give up this woman. But he's king of the Greeks. He feels slighted by the fact that he's having to

give up a woman. So he says, look, I'm just going to take someone else's woman. At that point, Achilles, always extraordinarily proud, arcs up and says, look, hang on. You just can't take anyone's woman. He says, and Agamemnon responds, look, I'm not going to take anyone's woman. I'm going to take your woman, Achilles. I'm going to take Briseis from you. And at this point, Achilles is furious, absolutely furious about the way in which he's being treated, being slighted by Agamemnon. And basically, he sulks for a good number of books in the Iliad, and indeed does a number of things that really are very, very kind of almost reprehensible. I mean, not only does he sulk, which is one thing he would refuse to fight on the Greeks' forces, but he actually prays to the gods that they should, in fact, really harm

the Greek forces. So, it's one thing just to withdraw your fighting skills. It's another thing to actually pray for your so-called allies to suffer. But anyway, this happens, and the forces of the Trojan forces really give it to the Greeks. Things are not looking good. And indeed, the Trojan forces are so successful that they actually manage to beat the Greeks back to their very ships that are beached on the Trojan shore. And at this point, Patroclus can't bear it any longer. He stood by Achilles while Achilles has been slighted and sulking in his tent, but he really decides, look, this is just not on. We need to take a stand. And he says to Achilles, look, I know you can't go, but lend me your armour, and I will go in your stead, and I will fight the Trojan forces for you. And that's

what he does, but of course, to absolutely tragic consequences. I'm Matt Lewis. And I'm Dr. Alan Orjanaga. And in Gone Medieval, we get into the greatest mysteries. The gobsmacking details and latest groundbreaking research. From the greatest millennium in human history. We're talking Vikings. Normans. Kings and popes.

Who were rarely the best of friends. Murder. Rebellions. And crusades. Find out who we really were. By subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. Wherever you get your podcasts. How does Achilles react when he's in his tent and the news comes back that Patroclus has been slain? And also, who slays Patroclus? So Patroclus goes out and he's extraordinarily

successful. On the battlefield, he's this amazing figure of martial valour. One of the great Trojan heroes, Sarpedon, falls beneath Patroclus. Sarpedon, a son of Zeus, one of Zeus's most cherished sons, killed by Patroclus. Indeed, Zeus is looking at it, watching his son being killed. He wants to go down and save Sarpedon from the wrath of Patroclus. But Hera, his wife, says, look, so many other gods are losing their sons on this battlefield. You can't go down and just rescue yours because otherwise everyone will go down and rescue their own son. So Zeus has to watch this beloved son of his, Sarpedon, killed by Patroclus. And Patroclus strips him of his armour. And everything seems to be going so well for Patroclus, and Patroclus strips him of his armour. Everything seems to be going so

well for Patroclus. But Patroclus, rather than just defending the Greek ships, decides to pursue the retreating Trojans. Before he went, in one of those wonderful, tragic moments where you know that things are going to go wrong, Achilles says, whatever you do, don't pursue the Trojans. Of course, you know, first of all, that's what Patroclus is going to do, and B, that this is going to end badly. That's precisely what happens. Patroclus pursues the retreating Trojans and eventually encounters Hector. It's Hector and his off-siders who are responsible for the death of Patroclus. That's why Achilles has to avenge Patroclus by killing Hector. But you asked about, well, what's it like when news reaches Achilles? This is this extraordinary, beautiful, powerful, wonderful, horrific moment in the Iliad when you hear the news and Achilles

is just destroyed. He's absolutely destroyed. He scrapes at the earth. He covers his hair. Homer describes how his beautiful face is disfigured by this uncontrollable grief, grief that is then picked up by his men, by picked up the women who all start lamenting. The whole of Achilles' retinue and troops are all distraught, undone by the death of Patroclus. retinue and troops are all distraught, undone by the death of Patroclus. It's a grief of such magnitude that Achilles' anger finally towards Agamemnon dissipates. He realises that he's now going to go back into the field of battle. He's going to make it up with Agamemnon, and they have this rather awkward kind of encounter where they put aside their differences so that Achilles can pursue this vengeance against Hector. So this massive grief, this massive mourning,

and you also hinted there so that ultimately Achilles would go on to slay Hector in vengeance of Achilles. And it's quite a brutal treatment of Hector's body too, isn't it? That whole completion of vengeance for the death of Patroclus. Absolutely. So after he killed Hector, what he does is he mutilates the body. He ties it round his chariot and drags the body round and round the funeral pyre of Patroclus, and wanting to dismember the body, wanting to ensure that it's reduced to a sort of bloodied pulp. I mean, the gods take pity on them and preserve the body, which just gives Achilles greater fury that his actions are doing it. But this is the actions of a madman. This is completely barbaric to the Greek eyes. I mean, the gods themselves can barely bear to look at what Achilles is doing. So great is his rage

at the death of Patroclus. And one gets a sense of that kind of magnitude of the grief and rage for the death of Patroclus by the extraordinary funeral rites that Achilles performs for Patroclus. The ghost of Patroclus appears to Achilles and says, you need to bury me because he's so busy dragging Hector's body around that he's entirely forgotten that Patroclus needs a proper burial. Hector's body round that he's entirely forgotten that Patroclus needs a proper burial. And he does this extraordinary burial where, in this period, what happens is that the body is burnt, and then the bones are collected. They're then put in an urn and then buried in the ground. So, they don't bury bodies. They first burn the body, collect the bones, and then bury them. And so, Achilles organises this 100-foot pyre of wood onto which the body of Patroclus is laid. But also, dozens of sheep and cows, warhorses are added. Interestingly, this is a bit that always gets me. A number of Patroclus' dogs are slaughtered as well. So the dogs that he fed at his table now get added to that pyre, along with 12 Trojan prisoners of war as well.

I always worry about myself because I really feel for the dogs. I mean, I feel slightly for the prisoners of war, but somehow the dogs always feel to me kind of the real tragic centre of the funeral pyre of Patroclus. But anyway, it burns and the bodies are recovered. And now, interestingly, when the ghost of Patroclus had appeared to Achilles and discussed his sort of funeral arrangements, one of the things he'd suggested is that their bones, that both Achilles' and Patroclus' bones, be gathered together and buried in the same urn. And this is a sign for Homer's audience of their extraordinary bonds of friendship, their kind of brotherliness that will get them buried in the same urn together. Very unusual,

very unusual request. Well, you mentioned Achilles' bones there. So, does Achilles not last much longer, shall we say, in the Trojan War? Yes. Well, he lasts for a bit longer. But yes, yes, eventually Paris will see him off with an arrow to that infamously vulnerable heel, and that will be the end of Achilles, sadly. And he will then be, again, interred with Patroclus together in the same tomb. And then, interestingly, and again, sort of horrifically, one of the daughters of Priam, a young girl by the name of Polyxena, will actually have her throat slit and will be, as it were, offered as a bride to Achilles and will be also buried there as well.

And so this tomb with the urn of both Patroclus' and Achilles' bones, was it believed or is it stated, was it believed that this tomb was in the vicinity of Troy? They don't take the remains back to Greece, they leave them at Troy, they are buried at Troy. Yes, absolutely. And in fact, later people would go and visit the tomb. So perhaps I guess the most famous example of people visiting the tomb is Alexander the Great and his lover Hephaestion, who go and make sacrifices to the tomb of Achilles and Patroclus. And this is a very symbolic act. It's Alexander seeing himself as the new Achilles and Hephaestion, his lover, as Patroclus. It's also just about as Alexander's about to start on his big eastern campaign, which he's reimagining as

refighting the Trojan War. So the new Achilles is back with his lover Patroclus slash Hephaestion. They're off to refight the Trojan War, to reconquer Trojan lands, and of course, eventually they'll get as far as India. It is an interesting comparison, isn't it? Well, if we focus a bit more on Alexander then, and that Achilles link, because when Hephaestion dies in 324, there is that massive outpouring of grief, of mourning by Alexander, and that creation of an almost, dare I say, over-the-top funeral pyre for Hephaestion II. It's interesting similarities you can see, can't you, between Achilles' reaction to Patroclus' death in the Iliad and Alexander's reaction to the death of Hephaestion. That's

really interesting. Yeah, and symbolically, for example, Alexander cuts his hair, a lock of his hair, which is precisely what, in fact, Achilles does for Patroclus and adds a lock of his hair, which is precisely what, in fact, Achilles does for Patroclus. It adds a lock of his hair to Patroclus' funeral pyre. Well, we've gone on to Alexander the Great and to Feistian, but let's take a step back one last time. As we wrap up Homer and the story of Achilles and Patroclus in Homer, in Homer's wording, are Achilles and Patroclus portrayed as lovers or great companions, or is there a great debate around the whole wording in Homer? So look, I think most people would say that Homer doesn't portray them as lovers,

that they are extraordinarily passionate friends. And possibly what's happening here is, in fact, what we find is we lack the vocabulary to describe this extraordinary, deep kind of male friendship that they have. I mean, one of the things that people have often pointed out is that there seem to be all these kind of deep, passionate friendships in the ancient world, which sort of transcend our normal words that we use. I mean, part of the problem is with love, right? I mean, love itself is such a complicated word, right? When you say, I love ice cream, I love my mother, I love my boyfriend or girlfriend, right? Those are very different kinds of love.

I mean, hopefully the way that you love ice cream is not the way that you love either your boyfriend or girlfriend. And hopefully the way that you love your mother is also not the way that you love your boyfriend or girlfriend, right? Unless you're Oedipus. Love is a very complicated topic in which there are various kinds of manifestations. And so, what precisely the love of Achilles and Patroclus is? I mean, it's deep, it's consuming, whether it was erotic or not, I mean, it seems to be actually a kind of second-order question.

Now, certainly in the ancient world, it was debated, actually. There was a certain, what you might call, dissatisfaction in our ancient sources about how unexplicit Homer is. One writer later says, look, he didn't need to say anything. We all knew they were lovers, and really a sensitive reader can see that they're lovers. But you get this sense that they would have preferred it if he'd been a bit more explicit about the relationship. But certainly, it doesn't take long for the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus to be seen as deeply erotic. Absolutely. I mean, should we delve into a few examples of this, therefore, in antiquity? I mean, I've got in my notes Plato's Symposium. This feels like one of the key examples that we've got of it surviving. Yes. I think just before that, the key text you

want is Aeschylus' play The Myrmidons. Let's have a look at that. So this is a play. So it doesn't survive. It only survives in fragments. It's part of a trilogy of plays about the Trojan War. But one of the plays involves Achilles lamenting the death of Patroclus. And what has struck people is the way in which he laments him is deeply erotic in terms of the language that he involves. So one of the things that he says is he talks about the kisses that they'd exchanged, but also how beautiful the thighs were of Patroclus. Now, within Greek homoerotic discourse, the thighs are particularly signalled out as very beautiful kind of erotic objects. And the reason why that is, is because the acceptable

way of homosexual lovemaking is what we call intercruel lovemaking. That is to say, masturbating between the thighs of your lover. And so the thighs become kind of desirable, erotic objects. And this is always regarded as a much more kind of acceptable form of homosexual intercourse than, for example, anal sex, for example. So there's a distinction between the two. So Aeschylus is the person who has Achilles crying over his lover and lamenting the thighs that he will no longer have access to. And so clearly in Aeschylus' play, the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus

is erotic. Now, what's also interesting about Aeschylus' play is the homoerotic roles that he seems to be assigning to each of the figures there. Because one of the very distinctive features about Greek homosexual relationships is that they are what we call asymmetric. That is to say, there's always a much more active lover and a much more passive lover. Now, it's the active lover who derives pleasure by rubbing himself against the thighs of the more passive lover. Now, normally, it's the case that the active lover is an older man and the passive lover is a younger

person. In this case, we know that, in fact, Achilles is the younger, and yet he's lamenting these thighs he's no longer going to have access to, as if he's a kind of older lover. So, there seems to be some sort of imbalance in this. And indeed, other later writers actually criticise Aeschylus for getting, as it were, the ages wrong or sort of misrepresenting the relationship. But in any case, it's very clear that the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus in Aeschylus is erotic. And then this then gets picked up by Plato, who in fact actually discusses Aeschylus' plays. And he talks about how, in fact, Aeschylus is erotic. And then this then gets picked up by Plato, who in fact actually discusses Aeschylus' plays. And he talks about how, in fact, Aeschylus got this all wrong,

and that in fact, actually, it was Achilles who was the younger lover to the older Patroclus. Well, keeping on ancient Greece a little longer, then I'm going to ask one question about the Romans, and then we'll get on to Shakespeare, and then I think we might have to wrap up there. But in regards to their depictions on, well, let's say pottery, on ancient Greek pottery, particularly, say, from the classical periods, how are the likes of Achilles and Patroclus usually portrayed? And in Gone Medieval, we get into the greatest mysteries. The gobsmacking details and latest groundbreaking research. From the greatest millennium in human history. We're talking Vikings.

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Wherever you get your podcasts. We have a number of depictions of Achilles and Patroclus. I guess, you know, I mean, one of the most sort of touching ones is them binding each other's wounds. And there's a really lovely, lovely depiction of that as a figure. I mean, Achilles is always a very popular figure in Greek vase painting because he really is the sort of paradigm of the fighter, the he-man figure. And so he's always in the front line of battle. So he's a very popular figure in Greek vase painting. We see a lot of him. Depictions of Achilles and Patroclus, less common.

As I say, the dominant mode for Depictions of Achilles and Patroclus are less common. As I say, the dominant mode for the representation of Achilles is in battle, but we do see some quite touching scenes of them together. Okay, well, let's therefore go on from that. So we see a few examples of Achilles and Patroclus together, and as you said, that one of them binding their wounds is very, very poignant indeed. But let's talk a bit about the Romans. Do Greek writers, even down into the Roman period, do they still look and study almost that relationship of Achilles and Patroclus? It never goes away. And I guess what's sort of interesting is that it's a relationship that is very useful because it allows you to talk

about a homoerotic relationship without any really negative sides, that there's no sense of effeminacy, there's no sense that this leads to any kind of moral degeneracy, which is always in the background in a number of discussions, particularly in Rome. So, homosexuality in Rome was always regarded with a slight degree of suspicion, far more than it was in the Greek world. Now, it's very common. There are a number of homosexual relationships in Rome, but there was always a sense that it was slightly foreign. I mean, they talk about Greek love as a sort of import from Greece. There was a suggestion that it might be associated with kinds of notions of effeminacy, or at least it might lead to effeminacy. So there was

always a bit of suspicion around homosexual relationships in Rome. And as a result, Achilles and Patroclus becomes a sort of paradigm that you can evoke of an admirable, healthy, homosexual relationship that is worth imitating. Before we completely wrap up, sadly we're running out of time. I did have a few more questions, but one other figure that I know you wanted to talk about, if we go a bit further ahead to the early modern times, Shakespeare, Troilus, and Cressida. How does Achilles and Patroclus fit into this? Yeah, I mean, it's so interesting. So certainly by the time of the early modern period, the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus is regarded as a homoerotic one. And that's certainly how they appear in Shakespeare. In Troilus and Cressida, it's this

extraordinary play, which has more plot lines than you could possibly want in a play. It's got Troilus lusting after Cressida, Cressida treating him badly, but it's also got the Iliad as well, effectively in it there. In one moment of the play, we have Achilles who's retreated to his tent, Alaba, the Iliad, and he's being berated for spending all his time with Patroclus. There's a figure, Thucydides, who gets stuck into him, and he describes Patroclus as Achilles' male violet. Patroclus says, male violet? What do you mean, male varlet? It's even more explicit. He says, his masculine whore. This idea of Patroclus as

this kind of whore figure for Achilles. Indeed, it's the same in, for example, something like Marlowe's Edward II, where, again, a play about a homoerotic relationship between Edward II and his beloved Piers Gaveston. But in the course of the play, they compare the two to a whole series of figures from antiquity. The figures they list are Alexander and Hephaestion, Hercules and Hylus, and, of course, Patroclus and Achilles. These are the constellation, the pantheon of homoerotic relationships. At the very centre is Achilles and Patroclus the constellation, the pantheon of homoerotic relationships. And at the very centre is Achilles and Patroclus. It's a relationship that we just keep coming back to time and time again. How interesting indeed. Alistair, I wish I could ask more questions,

but of course, I feel like the legacy of Achilles and Patroclus and that depiction of their relationship in the last few hundred years is worthy of another podcast in its own right. Alistair, it just goes for me to say thank you so much, as always, for coming back on the podcast. Great pleasure. Always lovely to chat. Well, there you go. There was our special Achilles and Patroclus episode of The An the ancients i hope you enjoyed shout out to lucy davidson the narrator of the story the script writer was andrew house and nicolo has overseen the creation of this episode so well alongside our senior producer elena guthrie and of course aiden lonigan for editing it today i really do hope you enjoyed the episode and thank you also, lest I forget, to Alistair as the main man in our interview.

So engaging, so passionate about what he does. Always a pleasure having him back on the pod. Now, last things from me. You know what I'm going to say, but if you have been enjoying The Ancients recently and you want to help us out, well, you know what you can do. You can leave us a lovely rating

on Apple Podcasts, on Spotifyify wherever you get your podcast from it really helps us as we continue to grow the podcast and to share these amazing stories from our distant past with you and with as many people as possible but that's enough from me and i will see you in the next episode in the next episode. you