Dan Snow's History Hit - Amend: The Fight for America

Episode Date: May 2, 2021

Take a deep dive into the remaking of the American Constitution and the 14th amendment created in the wake of the American Civil War. The 14th amendment formed a key part of addressing citizenship rights and equal protection under the law, particularly for former slaves. Comedian, writer and actor Larry Wilmore is executive producer and one of the stars of the six-part series Amend: The Fight For America which examines why the 14th amendment mattered at the time and continues to be of vital importance to American society today.

Hi everybody, welcome to Downstairs History. What a treat this podcast was. I got to meet one of my heroes. I got to meet Larry Wilmore. He's an American comedian, writer, producer, actor, the whole works. I first saw him on The Daily Show, which I was addicted to. He was the senior black correspondent on there, but he also created the Bernie Mac Show and the Comedy Central Show as well. One of the many spinoffs from The Daily Show, The Nightly Show with Larry Wilmore, which was very funny. He's on the podcast because he's talking about Amend, the fight for America.

A deep dive on the 14th Amendment, folks, the kind of thing that comedy actors and writers are always talking about. This was the show made by him, Samuel L. Jackson, Will Smith, various other people, about the 14th Amendment, why it mattered at the time, why it still matters. Got to check it out. How the Constitution was remade in the years following the American Civil War.

I spoke to Larry about a week ago, just after the result had been handed down, the Derek Chauvin case, the man who was successfully prosecuted for the murder of George Floyd. So it was an opportunity to talk about that as well. Like so many comedians that I meet, interesting, comedians and actors, he's obsessed with history. Even when the mic wasn't running, he just wanted to talk history all the time. It was great. And that makes total sense because really, frankly, what sane individual isn't obsessed by history. It's how we all got here, folks. Only way to make sense of this mad ride.

Anyway, at the end of this episode, if you want to go and learn more about this mad ride that we're all on together, feel free. Go to historyhit.tv. We have got our own digital history channel. It's like Netflix for history. You pay a small subscription and we go out and we spend that. Yeah, we do. But we spend it wisely. We spend it on making the world's best history programs. We got a show up there at the moment, which is almost top of the charts. It's in a battle royal to be top of the charts. We got a show on that lost legion, the lost ninth legion. What happened? What happened to that mythical legion that disappeared into the north of Britain, into what is now Scotland? What happened to them and their eagle? And lots of people are watching that at the moment, but they're also watching Elna Janneger, who is a brilliant historian talking

about life in medieval Europe. So go and check either of those two out. But there's a whole range of other shows, some of them featuring me. Lots of things going on there, everybody. So head over to history.tv. Join the revolution, folks. But in the meantime, here is the very brilliant Larry Wilmore. Larry, thanks so much for coming on the podcast.

Oh, it's my pleasure, Dan. Thanks for having me on. Well, it was unintentional, but we are talking on a historic day. Last night, the jury didn't take long to decide that George Floyd was indeed murdered, as anybody with a cell phone and internet connection had kind of basically assumed. What is the mood like there? Well, I can only judge it from the internet and watching the news because, I mean, outside of everything, it's pretty calm, thank God. We know how things can be when the opposite happens. I think people are a combination of relieved, a little stunned maybe that he was

guilty on all three counts, which I didn't see coming. I mean, that kind of thing never happens. It was unprecedented in so many ways, Dan, because you had even police officers who were testifying against this other officer. That never happens. They have an expression here, the thin blue line, where they don't cross that blue line. It's very rare. And it wasn't just one officer, it was multiple officers. I think everybody found it abhorrent. And the fact that he'll go to prison for what was obviously not just a legal crime, but just morally reprehensible, I think, is a sense of relief, I think, that the right thing happened. But it's also caught up in this moment that we're living through. This documentary that you've made with all these luminaries did that come from this moment or was that in the planning works for years yeah it was in the planning works a while ago i talked with will smith about it in the summer of 2018 that's how long ago i talked to him about it and he was

interested in doing this documentary but he wanted it to be more than just a straightforward kind of academic explanation of the 14th Amendment, which would be fine, but he thought it'd be great for it to have some entertainment value, let's say, to be able to pull people in to be able to experience it in a different way, whether it was through music or performance or different ways of expressing the meanings behind this important amendment to the Constitution. So it started in the summer of 2018, and we started shooting some of the segments, the straightforward segments with the historians and that sort of thing, actually in November 2018. But Dan, I had a show called The Nightly Show where we covered these things in 2015.

Eric Garner, who was killed in York, where they choked him on the street for selling Lucy cigarettes. And when he said, I can't breathe, I can't breathe. Ironically, which is what George Floyd had said the same thing. And it's the need to want to cover these things has been around for a while. So yeah, it's kind of this unfortunate, vicious circle, if you will. I always love it when legends of stage and screen like you come out and self-identify secretly as history fans. I mean, is this... Oh, I love it. That's so cool. And so tell me why it was that even back in 2018, back when you were doing your

show, why does history matter in this conversation? Well, to me, history matters. And you guys didn't hear it, but I was giving Dan his props right before for his Lady Montague segment. But it's so informative listening to that episode. And I love that you guys brought up the anti-vax part of it. I think that was your question or bringing up that parallel, because through history, we understand the context of how people behave. It's not just events that happen, but how do people behave inside of these events? And it's funny, the human behavior repeats itself, repeats itself and repeats itself. The circumstances may be different, but the behavior is pretty constant.

And I think we can learn a lot by learning about the context of how situations unfolded with dealing with the things that we have to deal with today. I think I learned to love history more as an adult. I think as you get older, you appreciate history. But having a real appreciation for sacrifices that people made, for how hard it was to do certain things, things weren't always easy to do. How long it took for certain things to happen, Dan, is very humbling.

We live in kind of a microwave society, right? With our cell phones and literally microwaves and everything. But sometimes things can take hundreds of years to change. It's shocking how long it can take for change to happen. And this kind of remaking of the US Constitution in the 1860s, the so-called Reconstruction Amendments, which do remake the U.S. Constitution, right? And yet we're still not really seeing the intended consequences of those amendments, right?

Yeah, absolutely. Tell me about the 14th Amendment. What is the 14th Amendment? Sure. Well, the 14th Amendment, people must know that slaves were not considered citizens, Black slaves in the United States, nor were Black people in general. There really wasn't a designation. If you were born in the United States to a slave, you were considered a slave, not a citizen. So with the 13th Amendment, which basically freed the slaves through constitutional amendment, we had the Emancipation Proclamation in the 13th Amendment, which basically freed the slaves through constitutional amendment, we had the Emancipation Proclamation and the 13th Amendment, which actually freed the slaves. The 14th Amendment said that all persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject

to the jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States and the states where they reside. the states where they reside. Very important information, which immediately gives Blacks status, but causes a whole nother set of issues because it's really saying, okay, these Blacks that you had as slaves are now just like you. They have the same rights as you have. It just really changed everything overnight. But it took years and years and years for a lot of the ramifications of that to come out. And there's more to it also. It also said that a person cannot be denied due process under law, that you cannot take away their property without due process. And you can't deny that to any person within its jurisdiction, the equal protection of the laws. And because it guaranteed people equal protection of the laws, it because it guaranteed people equal protection of the laws,

it opened up the door for everything from the suffragette movement to gay marriage to eventually coming back around to the civil rights movement in the 60s, guaranteeing voting rights for Black Americans and all sorts of things. And it's still being used today, the 14th Amendment. The power of those words seemed so simple at the time, but were revolutionary in guaranteeing rights over and over and over again. You're listening to Dan Snow's History. We've got Larry Wilmore on. We're talking about the 14th Amendment, obviously. More after this.

Okay, Tristan, you've got 50 seconds. Go. Right. So Dan's given me a few seconds to sell the Ancients podcast. What is the Ancients, I hear you say? Well, it's like Dan's show, except just ancient history. We've got the groundbreaking new archaeological discoveries. This seems to be the oldest known dated depiction of the animal world,

as far as we can tell, anywhere in the world. We've got the big names. It's one of those great things, Pompeii. It's kind of forever rising from the dead and from destruction. We've got the big topics. The man destroys seven legions in a day. No one in history has done that. Subscribe to The Ancients from History Hit

wherever you get your podcasts from. Oh, and Russell Crowe, if you're listening, we would love to have you on the Ancients. Spread the word, people. Spread the word. We Brits find it so fascinating because you live in this country, this republic of words. Yes, correct. And you know where the commas go, that equal protection. The equal protection is so important, right? And we look back at also your related, but different, your parallel struggle around firearms

and what constitutes a militia and all this kind of stuff. You are literally living and dying by these words. Yeah, it's so true. It's a great observation. It's one of the first governments or republics, I guess you could say, that was built on an idea and not on land. Even though, of course, there was land, that was not the fight for the United States. It was built on this idea.

And so words have always been very important. And I always say, if you didn't mean something, you shouldn't have put it in the document. But that's how it goes. And when you guarantee certain rights, people are going to come one day and ask for that guarantee to be granted. It just goes to show you how powerful language can be. And look, a lot of this goes back to the Magna Carta and how powerful that document was in the Middle Ages, for Christ's sakes, almost. That you could have a document that ultimately is guaranteeing rights to people when they had no right to even ask for rights. This documentary that you guys have made, you wanted to educate, right? Why is it important

that people know that they should be able to quote those lines? Why does that matter to citizens? Well, because they have to know that they don't have to ask for rights, they already have them. And so knowing that something is already there for them, they don't have to ask for rights. They already have them. And so knowing that something is already there for them, they don't have to feel like something has to be granted to them. They're already there. You don't have to go begging with your pan out there for somebody to throw some coins in it. You already got it right there. You just need to elucidate that back to people and say, it's right here. You cannot trample on this. You cannot act like this doesn't exist. There was hard work put into this to make this language the way that it was and to guarantee the rights

for all citizens, not for some, but for all. Following on from this documentary, can I ask about your other work? Sure. I've been watching you for years and years. Oh, thanks, Dan. What does blackness mean to your career? Because I'm always struck like you were the Daily Show's senior black correspondent. Yeah, that's right. And then you went on brilliantly on The Office as like a diverse. Is that something that was forced on you because you didn't have access? You couldn't be like, I'm going to go and play Hamlet. Was it a decision or was it forced on you that you've had to constantly play these roles of like the black guy?

No, it's not quite like that. I started my career as a stand-up comic and as a comedy writer, of course, in television. One of my early jobs was on a show called In Living Color, which was kind of a satire of racial things here in this country and that kind of stuff. And I have always liked satire. I've always been attracted to it. And racial satire always made me laugh. I always found that as an interesting way in. One of my early jokes as a comedian, this is years ago, so forgive me. But I used to say, I'm light-skinned. And I would say, people always ask me what I'm mixed with.

They look, are you mixed with something? They would make that face. And I would say, look, if I was a beer, I'd be a Negro light, OK? And I would say, and I am a third less angry than the regular Negro. So it all kind of works together. And that was always a joke. I love the satire of race relations. I always tried to find the humor in that tension rather than just exploring it straightforward.

It was the humor in it. And I created shows on television before I even did The Office and The Daily Show. I created a show called The Bernie Mac Show with Bernie Mac. And the first show I co-created, I did with Eddie Murphy. It was called The PJs. It was this animated show, kind of like Claymation. And it was kind of a satire of living in the ghetto. And there were all these satirical jokes. It's kind of like our version of The Simpsons. In fact, I had a couple of Simpsons writers on my staff who were buddies of mine. And that's just how my brain works, Dan. It's like, I like looking at things that make us uncomfortable, turning it upside down, and finding humor in it. And I guess it reached its apex in The Nightly Show, the show that I did

for only a year and a half in Comedy Central. And we tackled tough issues like this. Like I said, the Eric Garner thing and issues that were really tough as well as finding the humor in absurd things as well. So it was more, I did kind of the thing that I was inspired to do, as opposed to, I felt like I was confined in a box. Has the mood changed? Are you able to keep finding the humor today? Well, unfortunately, I'm the type of person that finds humor in everything. That's kind of my lot in life. I always told you if I worked at a bank, I'd be making bank jokes all the time and probably get fired. But luckily, I'm in showbiz. But I tend

to find the humor in dark situations. The situations themselves aren't funny. It's just the way that I look at the world is funny. So there's nothing funny about what's going on, but I will find something to laugh at because that's just how my brain works. So I think that's the best way that I can explain it. But I also feel that we have to have pressure release valves for these situations. I think it's good to try to find a way to laugh at these situations because otherwise the bleakness of life is just too much as far as I'm concerned. It's way too much. And sometimes it's very difficult. It's

not that there's something funny about the situation. Like I said, is I find the world to be funny and I will find a way to get us to the side of looking at it with a little bit of humor, hopefully. Tell me, have you got any more history projects? Because we all want more history now that you've started. The A-team seems to be on the pitch now. We want some more history. Well, I'm developing an idea that deals with the period of time during the First World War, which I've suddenly become fascinated with over the past few years. World War I, it's really the ugly stepbrother of World War II, it seems like, you know. They don't give World War I its respect.

But that period of time is fascinating to me now because I feel like it's undertold. And I have this thriller that I'm working on that kind of takes place during that period of time. It's kind of interesting. Different kind of project. But we'll see what happens. But other than that, I love just reading about different periods and that type of stuff and listening to podcasts and all kinds of stuff like that well you need to get yourself up to kansas city missouri for world war one museum up there it's an amazing team i've been many times yeah just the technology is

underappreciated i think for the time just the move from where the technology was for war before that to world war one is an amazing leap, which kind of really changed the world at that time in ways that we couldn't appreciate until later. See, the atom bomb just hogged all the attention for the 20th century, just hogged all the attention. Poison gas came before that. Sorry to say, atom bomb. There were a lot of things that kind of changed the way that we fought, which is kind of a dark type of thing to think about, but it's part of our history. It is, and it was a time of extraordinary transformation.

But some of the generals could have been a little bit more careful about watching what had happened on the battlefields of the US Civil War. That's exactly right. Because there was a few little innovations that were starting to make themselves felt there, which would have been a big warning to the generals in the First World War. There you go. So thank you so much for coming on. Tell us, what's the name of the documentary and how we can watch it.

So the documentary is on Netflix, and it's called Amend. And it's hosted by Will Smith, who does a brilliant job. And my little face pops up in each episode. It's a six-part docuseries, and we kind of show how the 14th Amendment has been dealt with in America. We give you context for it. And then we deal with women's rights, LGBTQ rights, immigration rights, and all sorts of things. And there's so many stars in it. Mahershala Ali plays Frederick Douglass in it. It's amazing the way that he just brings his words to life. It really is a testament to how powerful those words were 150 years ago. Douglass is one of the best, that's for sure.

Absolutely. Thank you so much, Larry Wilmore. I really appreciate you coming on the podcast. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. I feel we have the history on our shoulders. All this tradition of ours, our school history, our songs, this part of the history of our country, all were gone and finished. Hi everyone, thanks for reaching the end of this podcast.

Most of you are probably asleep, so I'm talking to your snoring forms, but anyone who's awake, it would be great if you could do me a quick favour, head over to wherever you get your podcasts and rate it five stars, and then leave a nice glowing review. It makes a huge difference for some reason to how these podcasts do. Madness, I know, but them's the rules. Then we go further up the charts, more people listen to us, and everything will be awesome. So thank you so much. Now sleep well.