Dan Snow's History Hit - Anne Boleyn: Myths vs Reality

Episode Date: September 18, 2025

The life of Anne Boleyn has intrigued audiences for centuries. Everyone knows something about her time as Queen of England, and of course, her betrayal and execution. But her formative years in France remain a bit of a mystery.Joining us today is Estelle Paranque, an Associate Professor in History at Northeastern University London, and author of ‘Thorns, Lust and Glory: The Betrayal of Anne Boleyn’. She takes us back to where it all started and unravels the truth behind the story of Anne Boleyn.Produced by James Hickmann and edited by Dougal Patmore.We'd love to hear your feedback - you can take part in our podcast survey here: https://insights.historyhit.com/history-hit-podcast-always-on.You can also email the podcast directly at [e-mail]. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello folks, Dan Snow here. I am throwing a party to celebrate 10 years of Dan Snow's history hit. I'd love for you to be there. Join me for a very special live recording of the podcast in London, in England on the 12th of September to celebrate the 10 years. You can find out more about it and get tickets with the link in the show notes. Look forward to seeing you there. The executioner was foreign. It was a Frenchman. The English used axes, the tools of butchers and woodsmen. There were too, too many examples of incompetent executioners,

taking multiple swings at the nape of a traitor's neck. But this was a queen. The first queen to be executed since, well, the very queen. the very, very distant and obscure past of Britain. She was Anne of England, Anne Boleyn, the woman who had driven Henry VIII to distraction, the woman for whom Henry had upended his kingdom broken with Rome and shattered Christendom.

To end Anne's life, the Frenchman was recruited, a swordsman, deft, lethal, precise, It would be quick, at least, a final blessing. A last privilege of her brief status as the foremost woman in the realm. There was no head on the smash-scarred block for this style of execution. Instead, she knelt, bolt up right, hair tucked under a cap, eyes blindfolded, with the great men of the kingdom bearing witness. When the blow came, it was swift and true.

The Frenchman earned his fee As Anne's head hit the floorboards Henry VIII was free You listen to Dan Snow's history hit And this is a podcast about Anne She has captivated people for centuries

She's been portrayed on the big And little screen time after time Whenever we put on our Not Just the Tudors podcast up about Anne Boleyn It smashes all the audience records we remain obsessed with Anne. She wasn't a great noble, she wasn't a foreign princess, she was just a very, very clever, an ambitious woman who very improbably became Queen of England.

And the first Queen of England to be legally executed. But how exactly did this minor courtier's daughter rise such dizzying height? In this episode, we're going to go all the way back to the beginning, we're going to talk about Anne's formative years in various European. courtly settings where she mastered the art of politics and diplomacy and culture and love alongside Europe's elites. These experiences turned her in to the formidable, ambitious, intelligent, politically savvy woman who changed the course of English history. To help us tell that story, I'm very pleased to say we've got the one and only, the phenomenon that is Estelle Perank,

Associate Professor of History at Northeastern University London and author of Thorn's Lust and Glory, The Betrayal of Anne Boleyn. Enjoy. T-minus 10. The Thomas bombs dropped on Hiroshima. God save the king. No black white unity till there is first than black unity.

Never to go to war with one another again. And lift-off and the shuttle has cleared the power. Estelle, good to have her on the show. Thank you so much for having me, Dan. Amblin can be quite obscure her beginnings. Do we know when and where she was born? Oh, that's such a terrific question. So many people disagree, you know, like 1501, 15.07.

But for me, it's 1501. Okay. It's 15.01 because it makes sense for her time in France. Like, when we know she's in France, so she's about 14, 15. And that would make sense for her to be a lady in waiting at that. age, if she was seven or eight. Too young. I do think so. I do not see Thomas Boland sending his seven, eight-year-old to France or even to McClellan before. So 15-0-1 for me. The idea of my eight-old daughter by herself in France is just astonishing. But anyway, I digress. Point four to the

law. She broke before. Like 14, 15, it's already like you're considered more of an adult or a young adult, but it is totally possible, right? Seven or eight, I don't see it. I'm not saying it never happened, but I just think that it's highly unlikely. And so she's, we think so we're going 501. Yeah. Born in, people say heva castle in Kent, or it could be, no, okay. Norfolk. Norfolk. And that's important because she is part of that super dynasty of the Tudor period, which is the Norfolk's. Exactly. And also like, obviously from her mother's side, Elizabeth Bullen is the Norfolk, right? But from her father's side, Thomas Bullen, it's all these Irish law. as well.

Okay. So a big legacy. She's not, you know, everyone wants to believe that Anne Boleyn is a kind of a nobody. Obviously,

she's not Catherine of Vragon. She's not royal blood. But she's still very, someone with a big lineage herself. And I think we tend to forget that about her. Right.

So she's got posh ancestors on her dad's side, but the Howard family of the Dukes of Norfolk on her mum's side who are, yeah, they're the power behind the throne right through this period.

What about her, so what do we know about her childhood? So before she goes on her travels, how would a young girl like that have been raised in this period? Well, that's a very interesting question, because actually, I have a castle. We know that she went when she was young there, and she spent her childhood there. And people can still go visit that and can today. And they can visit it. And they were pretty, at some point, they had the Berlin apartments.

And it was an amazing exhibition by Kit McCaffrey and Dr. Wenamesson and Dr. Alison Palmer. And they did this amazing thing where they tried to make you feel like what it would have been like for Anne Boleyn to play with her brother and her sister, George and Mary. And they had like reproduced like toys, like wooden toys and all these type of things and playing in the gardens because the Heva Castle, obviously there's the castle, but that's the garden. So it's quite amazing as well. So there's all of this. And you can really picture Anne Boleyn playing there with, you know, wooden toys and all these type of stuff and where she would have learned a lot of skills. And her uncle was the Duke of Norfolk.

we discussed. She's very well connected. When do she get an education there? She did. Well, they started the education there, but actually, you know, it's her father at some point. It was like, you need to get a proper education. You know, there's also this big discussion. Like, was Anne Boleyn the eldest daughter? You know, again, not a very controversial question, but a lot of historians will tell you, no, Mary Bullen was the eldest. But because we don't know, for me, it's very hard to believe that Thomas Boland would have promoted Anne's education over his eldest daughter, Mary.

So for me, I believe that Anna was actually the eldest. It makes no sense to give her that. And it's because he would have favoured her and he would have loved her more. But again, I think, first of all, it would be harsh. I mean, if you have more than one kid, you should know that. It's very hard to choose one.

Very difficult. So, like, I don't see how you would prefer, you know, this daughter over the other one. It makes no sense to me. So we think she's the oldest, so she's a lot of attention being paid education. Yes. And why is that? Because he was very progressive or just because noble women ought to be, ought to know what's going on, be able to speak languages, read?

I think there's a bit of this. I think, you know, he wanted to advance the Bullen family, the name, his name, right? So obviously he married Elizabeth Bullen in Norfolk. So he really wanted to also push himself into that, to rise. But when you really think about it as well, I mean, that's my opinion. And I'm going to say something that's going to sound a bit also controversial. I'm sorry, Dan,

it's just a controversial episode. That's why we got you on. But I think that Thomas Boland also wanted Amble to have an education because it could serve him. Because when you think about he's going to send her,

he's going to use his own network with Cardinal Worsi, his patron, his own network, to offer his daughter to market Great of Austria in Macalem, right? And we're here in 1513, 1512, 1513.

So, Anne Boleyn would have been very young to be sent there. But he, where does he do this? He does it because obviously he wants Anne Boleyn to learn French, a very important language, then. Of course, but also he does this because for him, it's a way to promote Herbert, to have his ears and eyes in another country. and to forge himself his personal relationship well is it really personal it's always a bit political isn't it political relationship with margaret of austria and when everything's going to change you know when the alliance between england and spain is going to be more complicated he's going to switch

and it's where he's going to send or ask to send anne to france so we see a father that obviously i think he i think he believed in anne's abilities but we also have a father who was extremely ambitious just not in a bad way. I don't think he was using Anne as a pun only, but with the aim of advancing the whole family. Interesting. So his choices about education, where he'd send his children are also shadowing England's foreign policy

at the time and imperial and relationships. Okay, so talking about Mechalind, Anna of Austria, who is she, why, why does she want some English kid to be, you know, a patron of? That is a very interesting question because actually doesn't make a lot of sense that she would agree, for Thomas Boland to send his daughter.

But that's because Thomas Bolin was sent as a special envoy. And I think he she liked him. And when he said, would you mind having, I would like my daughter to learn from you. And Margaret of Australia is obviously from this big outborg family.

She's the aunt of Charles V. She is like, she's the governor of the Spanish Netherlands. A very, very strong woman. And why am I insisting on this? Because I want people to understand that. Anne Bolin

met a very strong. strong and powerful women at only 12 or 13 years old. And she's wielding power in her own right, as you say so. Absolutely. She's running of Charles V. One of the most powerful men in European history. Yeah. I mean, if you say that, your French person is very hard, but yes. I'm a difficult few to hear. I'm sorry, I'm not going to mention King Francis and his embarrassment at the hands of Charles Fift. I'm not even going to mention it. I'm not even

mention it. So I haven't even mentioned it. But so she's running what is now Holland and bits of Belgium for this empire. For this empire. Right. And she's a very, and she's a very much. And she's very powerful women. So when Thomas, I think she was, like, amused by the idea of how, like, and I think she liked the fact that he was bold to ask. So she said, yes. So he sent Anne there, and Anne spent time with her. Now, what do we know actually about her time there?

We don't know that much, but we have a surviving letter of Anne Boleyn during that time that she wrote in Mechelon to her father. And Mechleon is where, sorry? It's in, well, now Belgium. Now Belgium. Okay, fine, yeah. So she wrote to her father and she's saying like how much she's learned French and how much she's learned, you know, the court rules. And that was very interesting because obviously here we see what Thomas Bolin wanted and was trying to do.

He was trying to make, from a very young age, Anne Bolein politically astute, politically aware of how power worked. And that's quite incredible. But obviously, because of what's happening in Europe, things are going to become very complicated. Margaret of Australia is going to get very annoyed with English because someone is looking for a wife, Louise the 12th of France, because Anne of Brittany died, the Queen of France died.

And Henry thinks, hmm, if I give my sister a Mary Tudor, but the Spanish are furious. He had promised Mary Trudeau to one of them. And he's not, oh, you're going to break that treaty, you're going to break that agreement. And we know Henry Dave, of course he will break anything. He wants to break. He's a breaker. There's two big power blocks in West New York, if you're like.

There's the French, then there's the empire. Absolutely. Okay, so Anbelin's been sent to the imperial side at the moment. Absolutely. But now Henry's turned it all on its head. Well, Henry days, like for him, Anbulin, right? Right now means nothing. Of course, yeah.

But he's like, looking at the, I mean, why I say Henry Vieth, you know, we know it's also Cardinal Wolsey, who's really behind, you know, the power here, especially at that time. So here they're shifting kind of an alliance, they see an alliance possible with France. It would put an end to the war, it would, you know, the Italian wars, it's been bloody. And also it gives them an edge, it gives them like, it gives a more importance to England on the European political scene. And Thomas Boulogne is like, ooh, okay, Mary Tudor is going to be sent.

So Mary Tudor, not, you know, the sister of Henry Apes, is going to be sent to France. And Thomas Boulogne is, I want Anne to go with Mary Tudor. But Anne is with Margaret of Austria, who's already quite annoyed with all of this. So he wrote to Margaret of Austria. Margaret of Austria obviously had to agree. I mean, she can't, you know, keep Anne Boleyn.

But she's also very annoyed. So she likes Ambelin. She does. She said that she thought she was very intelligent. We have also a letter of her saying to Thomas that Anne Boleyn is very intelligent. She loves spending time with her. She learns quickly.

You know it's something that actually Anne Boleyn hasn't come in with Elizabeth the first. When you really look at their education, they learn so fast. They're smart. Very, very smart. And so Margaret of Austria is going to agree, but Anne Bolein can't get in time back to England to go to France.

So here, Dan is going to get very interesting here, Thomas Bullen managed to secure the place of Anne Boleyn in Mary Tudor's court, like, you know, when she sent to France, by sending Mary Bolin, the second daughter. Oh, a substitute. Exactly. A substitute. Exactly.

And what I love is that in the manuscripts, we have Mademoiselle Bolin, right? And so because they don't know if it's Anne or Mary who's going to go first and who's going to arrive there. And at first it's Mary. Anne is going to arrive after the coronation, actually, of Mary. So, but she arrives there, and then something else happened. You know, like, fate always strikes when you don't expect it to strike. Louis X-12 is going to die.

A married shooter is a widow. And she has to go back, you know, like all this saga, she's going to marry in secret Charles Brendan and it's going to be it. Yes, that's right. So she's briefly the Queen of France. briefly the Queen of France. Henry Day sent his mates out to go and get her and then they get married.

Unbelievable. Unbelievable. So sneaky. Yeah, I think that's a good term. I would have said something else, but that's a good term done. And then they go back to England. And here's something happens.

Mary Bullen comes back to England with Mary. But here we have a little Bullen who stayed. And what we don't know, we don't have it in the archives. I haven't found it. If someone else found it, bless you. I want you to find it. There are more stuff to find.

But here she doesn't come back. She stayed. So someone has asked for her to be a lady in waiting of the new queen, Claude of France, the wife of Francis I first. And they accepted. They accepted to have this English woman.

And I think, again, it's Thomas Boland. Why? Because Tomoluz Boland has also been sent as a special envoy. And I think he's a very charming person. I think he's very likable And I think everywhere he goes He knows how to flatter people in power

He creates a very strong bond And then he asks for special favours And it worked Extraordinary And Anne can play the part Because she's super smart She's super smart She's already in French

So it's not a problem And And she's the same age More less as Cloude-France So I think there's this bond as well With like young You know when I say younger as young women together.

And we know that they did get on because we have sources after that said that Anne Boleyn got on with Claude of France and Rone of France. Catherine Medici tried to convince Elizabeth to have a special friendship because she said your mother was a friend of Claude and Rone of France.

Rone is the sister of Claude of France. And she said, so we should be friends too. So that's fact. So we think of Anne Boleyn as just arriving at Henry the 8th Court and being attractive and turning Henry's head and making him fall in love with her. But she's had this really interesting, important,

an unusual journey through European high politics. Dan, do you know that actually Anne is more travel, well-traveled than Henry the 8th or even Catherine of Aragon? Isn't it crazy? Because we think of Anne, you know, when you think of France, you think of Paris, right? Newsflash, France is not Paris. she went to the Mediterranean.

Really? Yeah. As part of the Queen's entourage to travel in. Exactly. So in October 1515, Francis I had been in battles in Italy and had his first victory in Marignano. And he comes back. And so Louise of Savoy is amazing and wonderful mother,

France's the first mother, decided to take the court to the South to celebrate him and to welcome him back. So here you have Claude of France, Louise of Savoy, Marguerite of Angoulin, Francis of her sister, and their ladies-in-waiting the court, that is going to go through like the Chateau de la Loire, and go down, Lyon, Toulon, Tarascon, and Orange, and obviously Marseille. Now, we never talk about this.

It never appears anywhere in the books on Anne Boleyn. And I wonder why, because don't we understand, like, the impact? I want you to understand that each time these women stopped in a city, the, you know, the tapestries, the pageants were about women. It was about celebrating Louise of Savoy and Claude of France. And Anne witnessed that, witnessed women being powerful, influential, loved, praised I mean

and she's you know 50 years old and she's like oh my God and then she sees the Mediterranean for the first time

the only time of her life what an opportunity is an opportunity here for the English cause in France is she's learning

she's developing she's growing but is she able to represent English interests or is she able is she playing a role yet

on the stage that is so interesting because like she's a lady in waiting to Claudeau-France. So, technically, no, she's not, she's not an ambassador. But, but we don't have the letters. But somehow Thomas Boland seems to know what's going on with Clodofrance.

To the point where Frances was first himself, so for example, there was one night where Clodofan was pregnant, she's always pregnant, but she was pregnant, and she was really lots of pain. And Thomas Boland knew about it. about this, who else would have told him? Who else would I spend time with Clod of France being, you know, in lots of pain while pregnant? Anne. So we know there is a big correspondence between them too. There's another thing, you know,

I've been asked a lot about, it's like, do you think that, you know, and could have been an interpreter, you know, with the field of clothes of gold or other kind of meetings with ambassadors? Yes, I do. And people are like, but Catherine Ovaraguna and Henry Fitt, they did speak French. Yes, but can we see the difference between speaking French and being fluent? Yes, I'm familiar with that difference. It is a big difference. When you are completely absorbed in a country, you can understand when five, six people are speaking at the same time the language. When you when you just speak the language, even if Henry Vier was absolutely amazing with French, I'm sure he was, or Catherine Avarigan was absolutely amazing. At Catherine of Varigan, such a powerhouse as well.

but I'm sorry I think Anne was needed I think Anne played a role because I think she was able to understand everything that they were saying I think you're not the same when you become bilingual

you're faster you understand better you understand the jokes she becomes culturally French she spent seven years with them with the French poor her now I'm kidding it's great

and so and it's good for Thomas Berlin because if he's getting this brilliant Intel from the heart of the French state. It boosts his standing in English circles. And his relationship. Yeah.

So he's like, so Francis really like the fact that Thomas shows concerns and he knows. And they see them as friends. That's why when, you know, when they call back Anne Boleyn to England, we know that it's going to be, there's going to be a war as obviously starting between France and England. But Francis is like very hurt. It's like, why are you calling her back? She's been with with us for seven years. and it's when you knew like something was, you know, obviously going wrong here.

But I love the fact that we have Anne Boulogne, this nobody, was actually witnessing grandeur and, you know, magnificent things from France. Because Perry's call is, I mean, I have to say, like, it's the best court. I know, it's difficult for us to admit, but yeah, the English are always a bit of a pale shadow. And I think so. I'm sorry, then. And so let's talk, speaking of grandeur, you mentioned Field of the Cloth of Gold, just remind us what happens there. Henry VIII meets King Francis, whereabouts, and why is it called Field the Cloth of Gold? So the fill of cloth of gold happens just outside of

Kelly because we know, unfortunately, Kelly. The mighty English Empire in France. Still, little, the little town of Calais. It's done killing me. But yeah, so it is a very important event because Francis I and Henry VIII are basically showing that they are very good and strong friends. Here it's about the alliance. It's about showcasing the alliance that it's unshakable. And also it's very rare, right?

We know that it is unheard of to have two kings like meeting and having this magnificent time together. So there's going to be tournaments, celebrations, festivities, obviously beer and wine. A bit of wrestling. A bit of wrestling. a bit of right you want to talk about this

I mean it's not good for the English he lost he lost he lost he lost he lost Henry VIII wrestles Francis and loses

it's fine okay I know exactly let's see you and there's wine fountains and there's it's magnificent

it's such a very expensive time for I think for both courts actually it ruins them both and Anne is part of this

Anne is there you're saying possibly really a key part yeah and Elizabeth Bolin are there and Anne is there

she's the French side. Yeah, extraordinary. She's with Claude. But it's the first time she's going to meet Henry Lee and Catherine of Oregon. I would not get here just to remember, you know, because people are always saying that it starts with a big rivalry between the two queens, Catherine and Anne. No, it starts with a big respect, a big allegiance from Anne. I mean, let's not forget that the Bullains were like really respected Catherine of Oregon. At that time, like 15, 20, 50, there's no problem, right? between Anne Boleyn and Catherine of Argan at all.

So it starts like on something very good, very promising, and obviously it's going to go down here. But here we have Anne that is going to witness as well, these two kings. And I wonder sometimes, you know, I don't know if you do that when you do work on your own research, but sometimes I wonder, do you think like she was like, I can see their similarities because they are so similar in the type of men they were, like very, you know, warrior kings,

Renaissance king. It was very narcissistic. Like, both... Charismatic but narcissistic as well. Both of them. Both Francis and Henry. And I wonder if she realized that, witnessed that. I guess we will never know because we can't interview her.

But that's something I've always wondered when I was working on her. The fill of the cloth got, the diplomacy, there's lots of fancy words, but not much lasting legacy. because England and France will end up going to war. Well, we, I mean, we always do, don't we? Yeah, sure. The French and English, we love each other

and we love to hate each other. So it's, we fall in and out of love constantly. And I think that's exactly what happened. But at first, no, but they really tried. You know, actually, Amundice and France is the first relationship. It's so remarkable because there's a lot of, you know, of breakups, but they always come back together, don't they? It is interesting when you just look at,

Because, yeah, there's going to be, like, a fallout again. But then they're going to be friends again, a fallout again. So, I don't know, it never lasts. But after this, but during one of their periods of falling out, Anne is summoned back from France? She has to leave France, yeah. Okay. So she, they...

Because England and France are about to go to war. Yeah. And Thomas Bullen asked her to come back before, obviously, like, there's this fallout. So that's when France is the first, like, oh, my God, what's going on? Why are you asking your daughter to come back? Interesting. Because, and so that was the first warning for French something, something up is about to happen, right? And so, like, Anne comes back.

And we have this idea that Anne's come back and she, you know, she's still, you know, Henry Diaz's hot as soon as she comes back. That's not really true, is it? She comes back 1521. She's still very much nobody, but they're trying to put her as a lady in waiting to Catherine of Arrigan. So she's placed into Catherine of Arrigan Hasol, right?

Because she's now an accomplished remarkable woman. Oh, she's done it with Marquette of Austria with Claude of France. She's so, I mean,

she's the perfect lady in waiting apart from the fire like what happens next? Yeah, until that point. Just to finish off thing in France, scourless misogynistic rumours about her sort of sexual adventures in France.

Do we have any evidence for any of that? Nothing. Never happened, all right? Okay, fine. No. We feel. get something about Anne. We have this image. It comes from her, like, her detractors way after. Anne is a very pious and religious woman. She is a very Catholic. In France, she also meets Margaret

of Angoulin. France is the first sister. And we also, Margaret of Angoulogne, everyone is thinking, oh my God, you know, obviously this big reform is. Yes, she loved reformed ideas, but especially in the late 1530s and 1540s, and he's dead by then. In the 1520s, you know, and late 1510s, Margaret, yes, she reads some books, but she's not a full reformed person. She's not what we might,

a beginning of a Protestant. No, she's not. And I think we have a big problem with that, Dan, and I'm going to have a go on your podcast. I'm sorry, but I think people don't just change their religion like, you know oh yes today I'm going to be a Protestant it takes such a long time for you to read books it's not because you read a book like oh my God yes I'm going to become a Protestant it takes a long time for you to change your mind about something so important as religion we're talking

they all believed in God it's not it's not you know it's part of that daily life Anne Boland is extremely Catholic her family is extremely Catholic there's no other way Now, is she interested in the conversation? Did she hear some stuff that were interesting? Probably Anne loved reading. Margaret of Angolam loved the idea of women being well-educated. So I think Anne benefited from this. But I don't think she changed her mind about religion

and then came back to the front and tried to change everyone else's mind. I don't think that happened at all. Isn't Dans' News history? We're talking about Anne Boleyn, more coming up. Land a Viking longship on island shores, scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt and avoid the Poisoners' Cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into Feudal Japan in our special series Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and

Shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills. needed, not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. Okay, so she's arrived at English.

Court. She is, she's not burning with some secret Protestant zeal that she's picked up on the continent. So she's, and she's now a lady in waiting to Queen Catherine of Aragon. Yes. How does that go? Well, I was, I mean, the evidence, probably it went well. It went well until it didn't go well until, yeah, and again, again, I know the thing that's going to be very controversial, but I want to debunk the mess that Anne Boleyn pursued Henry VIII. And Boland is not the homewrecker that everyone thinks she is. Now, but like, we have to stop with this. She didn't care about Henry Leith.

She wanted to marry Henry Percy. So the Earl of Northern Berlin, very important family. Obviously, they were not sure about, you know, him marrying a Boland. You know, it was a bit below their status. But that's beyond the point. There's also Cardinal Worsi that stopped that marriage because Henry Lidd was starting to be interested in Anne Boleyn. Oh, I see. Okay. So you've got a Percy.

it's one of the great families of England they have got a burgeoning romance for falling in love at court and Henry the 8th actually orders that to well there is kind of like evidence that Cardin Walls is not is trying to do everything he can to make sure that it stopped

maybe he's the one who suggested that the Bullains were not high standard you know as high standards as the Percy so maybe it should not happen whatever we know what happened for sure is that damage never happened and then Anne Boleyn was kind of offered well would you like to be

my mistress. Okay. You know? And she's like, no. And this was normal in this period that kings would take mistresses. Yes. Well, he had mistresses before, Beth Blount, who had a children, Henry Fitzroy, like a child. And they would be, like Anne, from sort of aristocratic backgrounds, gentry and noble families.

Well, it really depends, depending on the kings and depending on it. But actually, I don't think Beth Blount was from a very nice background. And he gave her lots of lands and wealth. actually it's very interesting with Henry Heath if you compare him to Francis I who, you know, he was shacking any woman he could. Well, Henry the Heath I think is someone who's more

I mean, I hate the guy but he picks one. Yeah, he picks one at a time, right? So like he's like you and then you and then, but then I'll kill you, right? I don't know which one is best. He's a romantic on one level didn't he? He sort of falls in love. It's what people say. Okay. Yeah,

yeah, but I think there might be a bit of truth in that. But he's still, like, for me, a massive monster, but that's a... Okay, well, we can all agree on that. But yes, but it's not like Francis, he's not, he's not just having sex with people and then just getting rid of them straight away. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's not, he's not, or at least we don't have the evidence that he's doing that, right? We don't have that evidence. So he's going to pursue Anne Boleyn. He's, like, very interested in her. I think it's to find that she's, she's well-travel, she's well-educated. She's different. Yeah.

But Anne is like, okay, what are you offering me here? To be the second woman? You know, I've always felt like Anne Boleyn was so modern for her time. But honestly, if you have a friend and she tells you, Dan, you know, I met someone who is married. And I told him, no, you leave your wife and then you marry me. You'd be like, you go, girl, good for you. You don't want, right? But like, because here, you know, it's a queen.

You're like, oh, what. Do the right thing. What a bastard you. You're not nice You're stealing him She's not stealing anyone She's like, you want me You divorce your wife

I want the whole thing I want to become queen And then yes I mean You know what I don't know if she promised That she would have a son But obviously that was

You know like saying You don't have any Right with Catherine That you know We might have one Yeah sure So Should we just also

You've mentioned her sister You think younger sister Mary at this point Has Henry VIII also had an affair with her? Oh, darn, you're going to hate me. I'm more controversy for you. I don't buy it. You don't buy that.

And I want to tell you why. Because of the evidence. The evidence we have, the real one that we can really rely on, is Henry VIII himself, when you want to get rid of Anne. He said, well, actually, we can't really be married. You know, 1535, 1536, like, it's like, oh, because I had an affair with Mary. So he's doing what he does. did to Catherine of Oregon, you know, when he was like, you actually slept with my brother and

that's why we don't have a son. He's doing that again. Do I really believe him that after so many years, now he's saying that, yes, you know, he had unfair with Mary. I'm not saying it's impossible. I just say that, I just find it so convenient. And also, we know that the other sources we have, so Nicholas Sanders and stuff, it's in 1570s, so under Elizabeth the first reign. And I think it's to discredit Elizabeth as to kind of, really tarnish her legitimacy, saying, you know what, Mary Bolin, Anne Boleyn, your family. So I don't, I mean, again, I'm not saying it's not entirely,

that it's not possible, maybe it is. A lot of historians actually believe that Mary Boleyn was a mistress, and maybe she was. But I found it very convenient that it was used against Anne Boleyn, and then it was used against Elizabeth I'm just a bit cautious about it. Okay, interesting. So, but either way, Henry wants to make. her, his mistress, she is saying no.

She's saying no. That's quite remarkable, isn't it? It is remarkable. It is so remarkable. And she lived also to heaver castle and he's going to write, I mean, people call it love letters. Can we stop with that? They're lust letters, right? He's talking about her breast and stuff.

I'm sorry, you send me a letter where you talk about my breasts and all love letters. I mean, you see what I mean? So it is massively lust. Okay. But he's pursuing her. And I think the fan, you know, he sent her gifts. She rejects the gifts. Wow.

Does she want to be queen at this point? It's sort of unimaginable. I mean, it's quite a stretch, isn't it, that an anointed king would marry somebody, would fall in lust with someone and marry them, to get rid of his wife and marry them? It's on herd of, isn't it? It's on herdough, yeah.

It's anode of, it is quite something. So what do you think she's going for at the moment? What's her plan? I think I thought she's just saying no. And I think that her game is like, or is to be able to find a suiter for her. later on and I think she's just

not interested in playing that game with him but because he keeps pursuing her I think at some point she did fall in love with him and then I think that then she's like yeah okay well

I want it all I want the whole package so you know we have a very the breakworth room really starts in 1527 right it's all when all this discussion about the annulment

with Catherine you know when she's humiliated a court all it starts in 1527 when we start the idea that maybe Henry should not just rely on the Pope and what he's saying. And during that time, 1527 to 1532, when they actually get married, 1533 with Anne Boleyn's coronation and the birth of Elizabeth, it's quite a long time, five, six years together. And it's like they become very close.

He's like he's completely devoted to her, isn't it? Like, it almost seems like he loves her. I don't believe he can love anyone. And she does, I think, really love him. And they kind of this power couple together. And it's where, like, the reformed ideas that she read, it's like, that's starting to grow on her, like to be like, okay, well, there's too much grammar that's playing a role that's talking about,

you know, maybe we don't have really to conform to the church, you know, in Rome. They call him no longer the pub, but the bishop of Rome, you know. So that's, so Anne is going through her own, on her own personal journey with this man she loves and she's thinking, I'd like to become queen. And as it happens, there is this intellectual foreman in, in Europe at the moment, around changing church practice, reform, we call Protestantism. So both, instead of working on a bit of a twin track, she's like, hang on a second, this is, this might, the idea of reforming religion and reforming my personal life and prospects are sort of linked together here.

But it's also for Henry, right? Henry Vieth is like, why am I listening to someone... Yeah, just going to Rome? Exactly. Who's saying, I can't get divorced? Yeah, just because Charles VIII obviously sacked Rome and is in control, the nephew of Catherine of Arrigan. Yes, let's go through this bit.

So Charles VIII is super emperor we talked about, who I promised not to mention. Yeah, I know. He has captured Rome. He's got the Pope hostage. Yes. Unfortunately, he is the nephew of Catherine of Arrigan. And there's no way he's going to let the Pope agree

on an annulment. Which is weird because traditionally Pope's allowed kings to get annulled quite, it wasn't the end of the world getting in the world.

I mean, I mean, yeah, I honestly think if it wasn't for child of his it would have gone through. So the Pope would be like, fine, get to, I don't care,

annul and then marry someone else, which is not that unusual. Okay, so because of the family politics, the popes can't do it. Can't do it. And then Henry's like,

well, who's the Pope anyway? Well, it's more, well, first, okay, that's where it gets interesting. And that's where, I think, is, let's talk

about the French side here. Because the French have a huge involvement in that. Frances DeVos is like, hmm, he's interested in Anne Boleyn. I know Anne. Anne was in France. Oh, that would be interesting to have, you know, a queen. Very useful. Yeah, that could be like, she's a francophile. She loves the French. She's going to favor. She's already starting to favor the French anyway. He's like, oh, I love, he hates the Spanish, obviously. And so he's like, that's great. And so he gets involved. So he's like, okay, wait, because. He's very Catholic, Francis. Yeah.

Henry was also very Catholic. Anyway. And they talk, and Francis is like, let me see if my theologyans in Paris can agree that you can, you know, that you can be. So there's lots of things that happens actually in France. And they all agree that he can get an annulment, that it should be, it should be possible. Yeah, so King France is like, hey, Henry, I think you can get an old. But he doesn't just do that, Danny. He sends special invoice to Rome, to convince the Pope.

did you know actually that I found it crazy they try until until they really fell until there was no way they could work that makes me think that Anne Boleyn really really really really wanted the Pope to recognise her which shows that despite the fact that

she might have been interested in reformed ideas she's still extremely Catholic even in 1527 28 2930 and she still wants to be recognised as a Catholic queen of England to a point where in 1534, I call it like the impossible mission where Jean-Dubelet, a French ambassador, but also he's a bishop, is going to be sent by France I first to Rome. Jean-Dubelaire loves Anne Boleyn.

Not in a weird way. He just adore her. And he sent that, and he's going to try all he can to make the Pope agree on an annulment. You know who stopped her? Who betrayed him? Henry VIII? What? Yeah, Henry VIII

didn't send the special envoy he had to send you back to back up Jean-Dubelet and Jean-Dillet got betrayed by the Spanish there, the Spanish bishop, the Italian bishop and he was waiting for Henry to send him the backup he needed and Henry, you have letters of Henry VIII telling him

yeah, yeah, I'll do it, I'll send them now. He never does. And that tells me that's Henry's break. with room. Okay. And Anne actually never wanted

the brick with room. So Henry's decided I'm through with the Pope. Yeah, absolutely. And you know we talk also about

excommunication, you know, the fear of, it doesn't happen right away, does it? It takes a long time for him

to be excommunicated. It's like, bring it on. Interesting. So it is a very complex time politically, but what I thought,

for me, when I was doing the research, it was heartbreaking to see how the French tried so hard to make her the legitimate Queen of England. And when they failed, at that time that was a lot, you know,

that was the last thing they could try, then obviously they're like, you're on your hand. If Francis of France had managed to stop the Reformation happening in England, and Anne Boleyn had been crowned Catholic Queen of England, what a world we'd be living in now. I know. Extraordinary. It didn't happen because of Henry VIII.

It's definitely his reformation. but but not a religious one or not right of you know he doesn't he doesn't become Protestant he's a Catholic until his death is Catholic but who doesn't is fighting with the Pope rejecting the Pope but yeah for his own authority head of the church which is which people have been doing for you Henry the second did that I mean every there everyone's fighting with Philip Philip of France I mean that guy he fought the Pope the whole time okay so it's not yet a kind of deep rooted transformation of British English religious No yet. No, yeah. It comes later.

That will come later. Okay, so we're in the 1530s now. Henry decides, that's it. I don't need the Pope's permission. I'm annulling my marriage. Yeah, yeah. So, no, so that's where it's so interesting. 1532, there's the meeting in Boulogne and Calais between Francis, the first, Henry Vieth, and Anne Boleyn.

There's, you know, celebrations as well, festivities, and Henry this tell Anne Bolein, you do not come to that. she disobeyed him, went, and we knew for a fact she had a discussion at that time with Francis I. What we don't know is what they said each other. But what we know is that once the left Boulogne in Calais and went back to England,

Henry Vith and Anne Boleyn got married and obviously we're going to have a baby. You know, like later, nine months later, there's Elizabeth. Then Anne Boleyn is crowned. Queen of England. 1st, June 1533. And all I'm talking about is after the French didn't stop, they still tried. You know, Francis I could not believe what happened.

He was like, and that's why I don't really know what, like, what he told her for her to feel like, okay, we're going to do it. Because he must have said, I will back you, I will support you. And I think she misunderstood him, like support, like, I'm on your side. Yeah. but he can't go against the Pope Francis I was because he's trying to get his second cent to marry the Pope's niece, Catherine of Medici. So he's like, please don't f*** up.

So, you know, no, but you have to listen that everyone has their own agendas. And I think Francis de First really liked Anne Boleyn as a person, but he was like, don't mess with my plans. And everything I told you about Jean-Dubelet going to Rome is in 1534. So it's a year after

Anne Bolein being crowned in England and everything. she's still looking forward to be like recognized by everyone she wants to and so that's crazy because we don't talk about this we assume that boom 1523 you have the breakfast room that's not true it goes on for longer more embellin after this Land a Viking longship on island shores, scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt and avoid the Poisoners' Cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on echoes of history, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series

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Henry who's thinking, I don't even want the recognition. At that point, it's like, I don't care. How popular or otherwise is their marriage in England? Well, it depends, obviously. There are lots of supporters of Catherine of Arrigan. Obviously, Catherine of Arrigan, the way she was humiliated, like, cast away. Like, I mean, let's face it, it's been horrendous

for her from 1527 until a death... Embarrassing. Absolutely. But there are people that do like... You know, when people are like, oh, you know, our coronation, everyone was like, no one cared, and that's not... true. People loved having a party anyway. And she

had, obviously, you know, we don't talk enough about Anne and what she did for the people, but did you know, Dan, that she supported the poor, that she had charities set up. Did you know as well that Anne Boleyn, when she died, had lots, lots of debts? Do you know why? Because she was a very good

well, a very nice landlady, not good financially. Because if one of the tenants were like, oh, I can't pay this mom, she was like, no, it doesn't matter. You'll pay you'll pay next time, babe. Do you imagine Anne Boleyn being like this? No, we never talk about the fan that she was, yeah, yeah, she had a bad temper. She could be annoying.

She didn't treat well, Princess Mary, Cassonovarach. Of course, they wanted the same man, right? They loved the same man. But she was so loyal. So when you wear her friend on her side, she, you know, she was 100% loyal to her. And she was so good with her people With charities, the poor She was really trying

A good little lady as well Like she always under Oh, we're having a hard time Well, you'll pay me later And that's why she ended up with lots of debts Unfortunately, but I mean she was dead So who cares

Exactly, who cares Yeah, I know Die with debts That's my policy She has a child But it's very disappointingly A girl Yeah well, the best queen

Who turns out to be the best queen In the history of her I know, yeah, exactly Best monarch, not just best queen Yeah, exactly. Although, hang a second, we have done an episode with our Irish colleagues who would beg to differ on that one.

I know, I know. And they're right, though. They're right as well. But certainly someone who's often thought to be the best monarch in English history, Elizabeth. But at the time, she's second daughter, they wanted a son, she's a footnote. It is tough.

When does their relationship start to go sour? It's one. People will tell you when Elizabeth I was born. That's not true. I mean, not that time. So 7th September 1533, we have Elizabeth. And obviously, it's a big disappointment, right? But Anne Boleyn truly loved her daughter, cared for her, showered her with gifts.

But even Henry Leith, at the time, he really loved. And he thought, all right, okay, she's healthy. It's our first baby. She's healthy. Because the problem with Catherine of Oregon, and I think people don't really discuss that, is the fact that most of her children, some of them died unfortunately in infancy. but a boy like Henry died he was one or two years old

so all a baby apart from Princess Mary were kind of sick or ill and he was like okay first kid first healthy kid yeah so he was like okay so at that point there's no he's disappointed must be like a slap in the face but at the same time he's like okay

we can make it work so they keep trying but they keep having fights because obviously you start Ang Bolen is also she has an opinion about everything love her But she's starting to tell. Ash, did you know that she voiced her concerns about the dissolution of monasteries? So she didn't like what he was doing.

And she told him and Thomas Cromwell, she confronted both of them saying, like, you're doing that for money? And they hated that. They hated that what she was, you know, fighting for the dissolution of monasteries. She was sending money to the monks that were losing their homes and stuff. They hated that she was doing all of this. So they had lots of fights and the fights were public. we have fought massively public between Henry Theith and And Boland. So imagine in private, I don't even want to imagine.

But they always seem to make up. And so you, there's no, you know, it doesn't fall. It's up and down, up and down, up and down. And she gets pregnant again. But, oh, a miscarriage. Okay. And again, oh, another miscarriage. And again, she's pregnant again.

And this time, it's January 1536. But this time, 7th, January 1536, Catherine of Ragan died. I'm going to say five months, four, five months pregnant, 20 weeks. I mean, we can't really know for sure. You see what I mean? Like quite showing, but not too much either. Miscarage.

And here we see the fetus was a boy. And that time, it's not, I think January 1536 to, what's going to happen April and May 1536, so her downfall, that happened so quickly. You have Henry Ler's like, you know, I've had enough. And people are pushing Jane Seymour in his arms. And Anne is starting to get jealous because I call her a substitute French princess in my book, but she's not French. She doesn't bring, you know, a dynastic alliance.

Oh, interesting. Okay. her relationship with Henry there is the reason why she's Queen of England why she's so important. So losing that like losing his affection is losing everything. Yeah she can't fall back on being important foreign interests. No, she can't be and Catherine of Oregon is now dead so before

it's why it's so for people to understand that as long as Catherine was alive she was safe because for the Catholic he was already married to Catherine for the reformed or people who believe that there was more than Catholicism he was married to her. Anne, right? But if she died, people were like, the Catholics were like, where he can remarry, they don't believe in Anne Boleyn's marriage, right? Like, he can remarry. And everyone is telling him, get rid of her. And it's how do you get rid of her? And the problem with her

is that, with Anne is that she's going to be, she's going to make a very big enemy out of Cromwell. She actually is going to threaten him indirectly. And now Thomas Cromwell, people will know from the books and the wonderful TV shows is Henry's chief minister at this point, his fixer. He's, yeah, and he's the most powerful man in England. He's going to, you know,

he's so powerful, he controls everything. And Cromwell has had enough of that. At first he obviously supported her. I mean, at first he, he's behind her. But then he's like, he doesn't like the fact that she has an opinion on everything. He doesn't like that she voiced her concerns about the dissolution of monasteries.

She voiced her concerns about, what he was doing, you know, basically. And presumably you can also see Henry falling slightly out of love with her. Yeah, also like thinking, I need to make my king happy, right? To make my king happy, I need him to have a son. And but Cromwell is starting to also, he blames Anne for what happened to Worsi. You know, he thinks that she played a role in his downfall and Walsy was his master and patron. So there's like kind of like he's starting to get annoyed with her.

and Anne is going to indirectly threaten him and you don't threaten Cromwell unless you do it, you get rid of him or if you threaten him, you're done because then he was, she threatened him in March by approach he was gone, you know, like she was arrested. So you can see here that he was like, okay, what's awful though, Dan?

It's obviously what's going to happen to her and how they're going to think about of a downfall Henry Vith wanted the downfall he's the one who's going to tell Cromwell, get rid of her I've had enough and Cromwell

how, find a way and you know I know many people realize that story but Anne Boleyn at the end of April so Eustace Chappi who is the imperial ambassador the man of Charles the 5th you know the big guy

the emperor even him didn't understand what was going on at the end of April It's like the king and the queen, so, well, he doesn't need the concubine, Anne Boleyn, are supposed to go to Rochester. But here, I see the Privy Council meeting and no one is telling me what's going on. You know, he's always hearing it and he's everywhere. And he has no clue what's going on. And Anne is, the date where she's supposed to go to Rochester with Henry VIII gets delayed and she waits and she waits. and when they finally come to get her

it's not to get her so you send her to the tower you've been arrested for high treason what I thought I was going to Rochester you know do you see what like how your world flip upside down with what they did to her and then she's to the Tower of London 2nd May

1536 and she discovered quite the rap sheet against her it's Oh my God. Adultery. Incest. Incest.

High treason. A bit of witchcraft in there? Well, it's what Henry Diaz said. Okay. But still, pretty, and conspiring to high treason, so conspiring to kill the king? Yeah, yeah. That was, any truth into any of those allegations? Absolutely not.

Nothing. They have absolutely nothing. And incest with her brother. You know, when you look at the source about the trial of Anne Boleyn, well, all the accusations are made against her. You have to imagine, first of, you have to imagine Anne in front of all these men Her uncle, Duke of Norfolk, is there Most of the men that are have a seat

She put them there You know, they were part of the Bullion faction There's Cromwell that, you know, with whom They've obviously worked together for a long time And here she's listening to what they say So like that she And it's how it's written She violated

the mouth of a brother. In a way, no, worse than that. Honestly, you read, so you have the dates and the places where she would have had, you know, there's so many men, there's Mark Smith and the musician, there's the old music instructor, there's Henry Norris, there's so many, you know, all the men that are going to die.

And they said to her that two weeks, it's not funny, but 21st, September, 1533, it said in the trial, You went Hampton Court, shagging Henry Norris in the Garden of Hampton Court. She gave her the 7th September 1533, Greenwich. You are impure. You're not allowed to go anywhere after giving birth for six weeks. So they're saying she went on a boat, went to Hampton Court, of all the places, went to see Henry Norris. Ah, I just want sex right now.

and went in a garden, of all places, right? Oh, take me here. I mean, insane. You know, I'm going to paraphrase what Anne Bole. So I'm going to listen to all that bull. And then he said, you know what? I get it. You want me dead.

Oh, no, she said, he wants me dead. Fine. But please save the lives of these innocent men who did nothing. At a time where it was her trial, she knew that it was an endgame it was a foregone conclusion she didn't think about saving herself she wanted to save the men that were accused with her doesn't it tell you everything you need to know about anne

honestly i think we do not talk about this enough well i'm glad we're talking about it now no so she was found guilty the men in question were killed her efforts were not successful including her brother now she was killed at the tower London. Did Henry get married the same day? I can't remember. No, he's hunting with Jane's someone the same day and he married her 10 days later. He married her 10 days later.

Can you imagine for Jane as well? Like, you know, we love beating all these wives against one another, but like, can you imagine, oh great. Yeah. Next. That's lovely. And they sent the the final bit of the French connection, they sent a someone to get a French executioner to do the job on Anne. But what's very interesting is obviously, we know that it doesn't take, you know, It's not a two-hour, you know, kind of travel time, right? But her trial is on the 15th of May. She's executed on the 19th of May. So for the guy to arrive, he was already asked to come where earlier than that?

You know, they didn't, you know, you couldn't call someone and say, okay, she's guilty, please come. And you know, when you think about like the arrest, 2nd of May and then the execution 19th of May, to realize how quick it is. But what doesn't he tell you? It tells you that he doesn't want the news to spread. doesn't want France to know. The French, you know, so the, I mean, the French ambassador was not a huge, at the time,

was not a huge fan of Van Boulogne, but his secretary, L'Anse Lo de Cal, who is going to write the life and death of Anne Boulogne and he's going to require, he's a witness of her death. He wants everyone to know in France what Henry Thief did. Henry Lerner is going to try to censor that book. And Francis de First is going to say, okay, I will not let it get published, but he doesn't stop the book to be circulated in the French court. Because it shows Henry's cruelty. It shook Europe. For instance, the first after that, I was like, I'm not sure I want you to marry, you know, someone from France. You know, like my daughter, no, it's not going to happen. My sister,

not going to happen. You know, no one's going to happen. Because it's like when Marie Deguise, you know, he wants to marry Mary DeGis after Jean Seymour died. And Marie DeGis said, my neck is too small, you know, I don't, I don't, yeah, no one wants to marry Henry VIII. He's a murderer. There's no other explanation. But what's so interesting about Anne is that obviously she's executed at the Tower of London. But can I tell you a little story when she was imprisoned? She thought about two people, you know, Kingston, the one in charge of the Tower, met her a few times.

And twice she was crying. She was crying for Elizabeth, her daughter, leaving her behind. So she's going to ask a chaplain, Matthew Parker, he promised to her, I will look after her, and he did. Well, as much as he could. But the second time, she was still crying, and Kingston is like to him, why are you crying? And I'm thinking about my mother.

She's going to lose two of her children. And you know what? It's not the worst thing that happened, actually, Dan. For me, the worst thing is that you have to imagine the Berlin, so Thomas and Elizabeth are back at Hiva Castle. Do you know who arrived at Hiva Castle? Cromwell and his men, and they destroyed everything that Anne possessed.

That's why we don't have her letters. That's why everything has been destroyed, and it's so hard to get to her words. That's why also the work of Kate McCaffrey is so important, you know, with the book of ours, because Anne gave that to her ladies in waiting, and they passed it on women. You know, the women protected Anne's legacy.

But otherwise everything else has been destroyed because Henry the Eighth ordered Cromwell to destroy everything. Probably he didn't want, you know, the letters or stuff that could be remembered. And isn't it good now that we're still talking about her right now in your podcast? In defiance of Henry the 8th? Exactly. A tyrant. Well, thank you so much for coming the podcast and doing that. Thank you, Dad. Thanks so much for listening, folks.

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