Dan Snow's History Hit - Attila The Hun

Episode Date: August 7, 2023

Known to the Romans as the 'Scourge of God', Attila the Hun brought chaos to the world around him. He and his armies plundered, pillaged and looted their way across vast swathes of Europe, ultimately contributing to the fall of the Western Roman Empire. So who was Attila, what made him so successful, and was his success built on more than just bloodshed?In the first episode of this two-part series on nomadic conquerors, we're diving into the world of Attila the Hun. To talk us through his life, Dan is joined by Professor Kenneth W. Harl, an expert in ancient history. Tune in tomorrow to hear the second episode in this series, on the famed conqueror from the Central Asian steppes, Genghis Khan.Produced by James Hickmann and edited by Dougal Patmore.PLEASE VOTE NOW! for Dan Snow's History Hit in the British Podcast Awards Listener's Choice category here. Every vote counts, thank you!Discover the past on History Hit with ad-free original podcasts and documentaries released weekly presented by world renowned historians like Dan Snow, Suzannah Lipscomb, Lucy Worsley, Matt Lewis, Tristan Hughes and more.Get 50% off your first 3 months with code DANSNOW. Download the app or sign up here.If you want to get in touch with the podcast, you can email us at [e-mail], we'd love to hear from you!You can take part in our listener survey here.

Hi everyone, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. Over the next two episodes we're going to be talking about two of the greatest military commanders in history. Two men whose names have endured. Two men who built mighty empires using the unstoppable tactics of light cavalry, of ambush, speedy advance, retreat and manoeuvre. They were Genghis Khan and Attila the Hun, names that echo through the ages. To talk us through first Attila and then Genghis Khan and Attila the Hun, names that echo through the ages. To talk us through first Attila and then Genghis, we've got Dr Kenneth Harle. He's a professor of classical and Byzantine history at Tulane University in New Orleans. He's just written a fantastic book, Empires of the Steps, and he's joining us for this two-part series to talk about these two men. First though,

Attila the Hun. The Huns posed an existential threat to the Romans in the 5th century when they burst out of the steppe into Eastern Europe. One Roman chronicler writes, the barbarian nation of the Huns became so great that more than a hundred cities were captured and Constantinople almost came into danger and most men fled from it. And there were so many murders and bloodlettings that the dead could not be numbered. Aye, for they took captive the churches and monasteries and slew the monks and maidens in great numbers. Another chronicler describes them simply as wolves. Of their most famous leader, we have an eyewitness account. Attila was a man of short stature, with a broad chest and a large head. His eyes were small, his beard was thin, sprinkled with grey.

He had a flat nose and tanned skin, showing evidence of his origin. Attila the Hun was said to revel in battle. And at the time of his untimely death, when he was celebrating his own marriage to a young German maiden, a little too hard and had some kind of cerebral hemorrhage, the Roman Empire in the West was at his feet. to a young German maiden, a little too hard, and had some kind of cerebral hemorrhage, the Roman Empire in the West was at his feet. It's one of the great what-if moments in history.

Here is Professor Hall. Enjoy. T-minus 10. Atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima. God save the king. No black-white unity till there is first and black unity. Never to go to war with one another again. And liftoff, and the shuttle has cleared the tower. Ken, thank you very much for coming on the podcast.

I'm delighted to be here. So I share the Roman surprise at the advent of the Huns. Who are they? Where do they come from? Well, the Romans themselves were extremely surprised, and our best account of it is by Ammianus Marcellinus, who's writing in the 4th century from firsthand reports. He undoubtedly talked to people who had met the Huns, and this is around 370 AD. They burst into the South Russian steppes from the east, and their ancestors probably were vassals or somehow associated with the Shuangnu, who were a major confederation on the eastern steps that

had challenged Han China centuries earlier. And these tribes had moved rapidly over short periods, and then they would stay in an area if they found adequate water and grasslands, and then they would move on as a result of pressure from other tribes or bad seasons. And so the Huns arrived really out of the blue for the Romans. And to set the stage of why Attila was such a threat to the Romans, the two generations before Attila, when the Huns arrived, the Romans had very little experience with nomadic tribes that were organized. They had encountered these horse archers, mostly Iranian-speaking nomads, on the East European steppes of the Hungarian plain and the like. They went under various names,

such as the Roxolani, or usually they were collectively known as the Sarmatians. But Rome always had the upper hand. And what happened is the Huns crashed into these Goths, who were the most formidable of the Germanic foes, and beat them handily. The Goths, or many of them, fled into the Roman Empire, later rebelled and killed a Roman emperor, and the Huns continued to expand west so that by 400, they controlled all the lands north of the Danube River, which was two-thirds of the Roman boundary in Europe. And the Romans were really quite perplexed by these people. As far as we can tell, they spoke an Altaic language, which would be related to the languages of Turkish and Mongolian today. I know modern Turkish. My wife is Turkish.

So when you're in a bilingual marriage, it's really quite interesting. And my wife will recognize all these Mongol words and usually tell me it's bad Turkish. So in any case, this language is probably similar to that. But the Huns, of course, subjected many other peoples, people who spoke Iranian and Germanic languages. And so by the time Attila became the high king, and to use an anachronistic term, Khan, he ruled over a polyglot empire. Before we get to Attila's empire, tell me about the steppe itself. There's an expert in this, this enormous tract of land that runs from what is now Hungary all the way to China, basically.

Could these people cross it quickly? Was the horse an essential part of this story? Is it about rivers? What is the kind of geography which these groups are proving masters of? Well, I always used to jest as a classical historian that it was essentially a highway that connected Europe to China. And it straddles a wide swathe of land. To the north, you have forests and frozen tundra of Siberia. To the south, you'll have the civilized or the sedentary civilizations, but also large tracts of desert.

And it divides roughly into three zones. The eastern steppes centering on Mongolia. Then you're broken by the Altai Mountains. You have the great central steppes that would largely be Kazakhstan today, which in size is equal to Europe. It's an enormous region. And then somewhere around the Ural or Volga River, we would speak of the Western or Southern Russian steppes. And these are grasslands that were

essentially mastered by nomadic speaking peoples when they domesticated the horse. And they were able to turn all of this grass into foodstuffs, and that's largely stock animals. They developed the wheel, put it on mobile homes, called a yurt in Turkish and Mongolian. Today, that actually means a dormitory in modern Turkish. They were able to traverse great distances, and the movements were seasonal in their region, but invariably, as population grew, they began to split off and move out for new grasslands and pastures and above all, water. That was the key. And contrary to our notions of steppe movement in historic times, it always seems to be east to west. You know, the Huns come from the east, they invade the Roman Empire. The

Turks come from the east, they invade the Islamic world. Then we get the real invaders, the Mongols who just take over everything. But in the earliest times, the movements were actually west to east because the first nomads who perfected the stock raising, the domestication of the horse and the wheeled vehicles emerged on the South Russian steppes. And they spoke some kind of Indo-European language, which gave birth to many of the languages from Ireland to India. And those represent early historic and even prehistoric migrations from the west eastward in search of better pastures and water. It is the most difficult of conditions. Weak people and animals do not survive. The temperatures are extremes in the summer. On these vast grasslands, usually the only shade you have is underneath your wagon.

There's a report by one of the papal envoys to the Mongol court who at first complained very much that he had opted to use wagons to travel east. But then he was thankful on the steps because at midday, he and his group could find shelter under the wagon until the sun subsided and they could travel again. You have to stock up your food for stores in order to endure the winter. You live in these essentially tents. There's no privacy. You're huddled together for months. Ibn Fadlan, who was an envoy from Baghdad to nomadic people on the Volga, reports his experience in these tents. And he was in some ways absolutely offended by the lack of privacy, people relieving themselves right in front of you and the wives being in modest. And he complained to his hosts. And the host said, well, to you, it looks like my

wife is in modest, but I know she's faithful to me. Whereas in your world, they're all covered up. And we hear of all these scandals going on all the time in Baghdad. By the way, how is Baghdad? They're always fascinated about stories from the great cities. I should say at this point, if anyone wants to go and Google Ibn Fadlan, I strongly advise they do so and go and read his account of a Viking funeral, which is one of the great piece of literature. And it was wonderfully recreated in that rather strange movie called 13th Warrior, which apparently Michael Priton wrote on a dare to make Beowulf interesting, was his claim, any event. He's just as observant about the nomadic peoples he dwelled among as well as the Norse. And he's in a great Arabic tradition of geographers who are curious about the people outside of the Islamic world.

They are constantly trying to study them, understand who they are. And he's really remarkably objective in his comments. And I talk about him at great length in Empires of the Steppes because he's our best account of how Turkish nomads lived before the impact of Islam and the arrival in the Islamic world. Ken, these are people on the move. They're not settled urban farmers. They are capable of traveling huge distances. They're self-sufficient. How is that reflected in the way they make war? Were the Romans thrown off by this new military challenge, as well as just a demographic one? Well, tactically, the Romans were familiar with the tactics of the horse archer. These are men mounted on very sturdy ponies, animals actually that could forage under the snow and had great endurance.

And the composite bow was a very effective weapon. It had good penetrating power and they used stealth and ambush. They would attack, try to draw their enemy into a counterattack where they would lose cohesion and then they would turn about and attack them again, usually catching them in completely disorganized state. This happened to several Byzantine armies with fatal results for the Byzantines. And wasn't the wealthy Roman member of the triumvirate with Caesar, wasn't Crassus and a force of a couple of legions destroyed at the Battle of Cary by horse archers as well in, what was it, 50-ish BC? The Parthian army would be about 90% horse archers and about 10% heavy cavalry, men who could close in close

formation. And that fateful battle in 53 BC resulted in the annihilation of two-thirds of seven legions. It was a defeat that Rome never quite got over. And the survivors stumbled into the city of Carai, which is today Haran in Turkey. And I've been out there wondering what Crassus was thinking, offering battle on that plain. Conclusion is he wasn't thinking. And the survivors tried to break out and most of them surrendered and Crassus got seized and beheaded. His head was gilded and sent down to the Parthian capital to play the role of Pentheus in the Bacchae. That was his fate. Another little anecdote where the Parthian capital to play the role of Pentheus in the Bacchae. That was his fate. Another little anecdote where the Parthians, who could read Greek,

were shocked at the tacky novels that they found in the Roman camp. It had something to do with Roman readership at the time. The only survivor of that disaster was actually Cassius. He was in the early breakout. So Caesar's assassin, Cassius, was actually survived that battle. Yeah, he survived the battle. So Rome has got previous with these kind of tactics. So they're not a complete surprise, but it's hit and run.

It's exposed your enemy to deadly ranged fire, we might say today, shooting at range and then looking for weak spots, dashing in, opportunistic. Sounds challenging. Yeah, it is. And until you have handheld firearms, it's very difficult to counter these formations. Men under pressure, standing as infantry as the Roman army would, or even the Goths, which would have large infantry contingents, would buckle under this incessant barrage of arrows, especially if it was a hot sun that day and you were thirsty. And these feigned retreats would lure men into

ill-advised counterattacks. Officers could lose control of their men. Or in some cases, rumors would circulate and the army would just panic and break and run. And then the nomads had an easy job to mop up. We're told by Ammianus in those operations, the Huns were very good at lassoing men in order to drag them in and dispatch them. And they were fearless warriors. One thing about the Huns is it was their size and organization. Now, we don't have details of the organization, but I suspect it was comparable to the Mongol army. It was probably organized in some kind of decimal units. There was a strict order of command. Men were promoted based on merit and loyalty. Those

would be the two qualifications, and they would equally count. And so Attila or other Han Khans or high kings knew that their officers could carry out these tactics independently. And when the time came strategically to launch the final attack, they were all ready to go. This type of coordination on a grand scale must have surprised the Romans. They overwhelmed the Gothic tribes who had been allies of Rome since the early fourth century. And the Goths came rushing into the Roman Empire asking to be admitted as asylum seekers. Over 100,000 of them crossed the Danube in 376, 377 just to escape the Huns. That's pretty alarming to the Romans. They actually defeated the Goths. The Goths have the singular privilege of killing two Roman emperors. No other Germanic tribe had that record. And then once the Huns were

established in Europe and Rua, the uncle and predecessor of Attila, probably dwelled in a major tent city somewhere in the vicinity of Budapest, and entrenched their power in Europe, they brought more and more Germanic tribes under control and drove other Germanic tribes into the Roman Empire, who were again trying to escape. On New Year's Eve 406, a host of different Germanic tribes crossed the frozen Rhine and overran Gaul and Spain, and this really spelled the demise of the Western Roman Empire, the loss of those provinces. Simultaneously, the British army had some idea of putting up their own emperor, a guy named Constantine III. They rebelled and crossed into Gaul. So Britain was now subject to attacks. The entire Western Empire unraveled because of the

pressure of the Huns who were expanding and subjecting tribes. And once they had them in control, Attila's genius was to invade the Roman world and extort gold, treasure, slaves, crucial borderlands, and build this confederation into something like an empire. You listened to Dan Snow's History. Don't forget to go to the British Podcast Awards website and vote for us in the listener's favourite category. Thank you for that. More after this. mysteries, the gobsmacking details and latest groundbreaking research from the greatest millennium in human history. We're talking Vikings, Normans, kings and popes who were

rarely the best of friends, murder, rebellions and crusades. Find out who we really were by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit wherever you get your podcasts. Let's come on to Attila. When does he burst onto the scene? What do we know about him? Well, we know a great deal about him due to this work known as the Secret History of the Mongols, is how it's translated. And it's a Chinese version of a Mongol original that was ordered by the son and successor of Genghis Khan, Ogedai, who is the second great Khan. And it reflects different traditions. It records traditions about the miraculous birth of Genghis Khan, whose personal name was Timurjin. Genghis Khan, which has some kind of meaning as oceanic universal lord, was bestowed on him in 1206. He went by his personal name, Temujin, through most of his life.

He's different and in some significant ways from Attila. I always think of Genghis Khan and Attila as the two great nomadic conquerors who really transformed history. And in writing this book, it confirmed what I always believed since I was a young age, and I was fascinated with these figures. But I see Attila as the great what-if in history, and Genghis Khan is the what-was. In the case of Genghis, I admire him to no end of his successes. The trouble for Attila was that he left no heirs and he died prematurely. It was a sudden death, probably in the winter, well, maybe like January or February of 453.

He overindulged and burst a blood vessel and drowned in his blood. He was celebrating a marriage to one of these German girls. Her name is Ildiko. And then in German legend, she lives on as the wife who does in her husband for various reasons. And when he was found, his warriors and commanders were really puzzled and upset and slew the girl, thinking she had murdered him. And his sons were not up to the job. Attila's sons fought among themselves. There were rebellions among the Germanic tribes. And his empire just fragmented.

It didn't so much fall as it just fragmented into the component parts. So you had Hun princes ruling on the southern steppes of Russia. You had the dramatic tribes breaking away. This was a great relief to the Romans because it was much more easy to manipulate these tribes now that they were no longer under the control of a great charismatic leader. Tell me about his early life. He's born somewhere shortly after 400 AD. Moonluck, his father, had died young in age. He had an older brother called Bleda, B-L-E-D-A, is the usual rendition. And they were noble princes who served the then Khan or great king Rua or Rugala. He has several rendition of his names. We're basing it on Greek and Latin sources who render it different ways. By the time Attila was of age, when he came to the throne

jointly with his brother in 434, he inherited a great confederation of tribes and he would build on that and he would extend its power and sway. From the start, he and his brother had great tensions between them. Attila was noticed as the greater of the two, even though he was the younger. They had succeeded because their uncle had apparently no sons. They were the most charismatic figures of that generation. This is a very typical succession system among the steppe nomads. That is, when the ruler dies, it doesn't necessarily go to a son. It could go to a brother. It could go to nephews, even cousins, depending on how these men were believed to be capable and charismatic among the ruling elite.

And so there would be an assembly that would confirm that the two brothers would rule jointly. We don't know if it was a geographic division. The sources suggest they may have kept a common court. There are reports of tensions. These would eventually build up in 445 into Attila arranging the death of his brother in a hunting accident, and then Attila would take power on his own. For the first nine years of their joint reign, the Roman accounts always stress Attila. Attila's behind signing a treaty with the Eastern Roman Empire. You have to remember at the time, Rome was now divided into an Eastern and Western Empire. The court at Constantinople under the feckless Emperor Theodosius II, affectionately known as the calligrapher, he was about as lazy as they come.

He didn't even read the law that bears his name. And it was really his sister who ran the whole operation. And in any event, his representatives concluded a treaty in which they promised to pay 350 pounds of gold per year if the Huns just wouldn't raid the Eastern Roman Empire. And this is typical of steppe rulers. They would raid and extort money from the sedentary civilizations. And it wouldn't just be money, but it would be trade rights. And Till is very concerned about two aspects of his dealings with the Romans. One is access to markets. And the other is, I want all those exiles at your court because they may come back and plague me in a rebellion. And he would make these demands. And if the Romans temporized or did not deliver immediately, then he would release

his Huns and ravage the provinces and force them to terms. And he was extremely successful in doing this against the Eastern court. Now, the late Roman army really wasn't up to the job of fighting. The best units were German tribes hired, and sometimes they would desert or be hired away. Second, Attila had extremely good information because merchants would flock to the Hun tent city. And they brought all sorts of information. They're essentially tourists of the Roman Empire. And when you talk to a tourist, the problem is getting them to shut up, not to talk. And so these guys would babble on. Oh, by the way, the Vandals are attacking the Romans in Africa right now. Oh, really? What's going on? Well, I saw a lot of Romans. They were

leaving Constantinople. There's rumors there's a revolt going on in Armenia, and they're fighting the Persians. And so Attila had a marvelous source of information. He knew how to time his invasions. And every time he hit the Romans, not only could he defeat the armies, he had gotten enough Roman captives, he could capture cities with battering rams and siege towers, and he knew diplomatically the difficult position the Eastern court was in. And so he was able to extort vast sums of money and slaves and markets. He forced the Romans to retreat, essentially dismantle their fortifications on the frontiers. The only thing that stopped him was Constantinople.

Yeah, he got to the walls of Constantinople themselves. Wow. You've seen those walls? That will stop the Huns. And that will protect the eastern provinces that produce the gold to pay off the Huns. Unfortunately, the Western government doesn't have a city like that. Ravenna, Rome, Milan, they're all exposed, especially Rome. And so the Eastern court had a strategic advantage. And as humiliating as the treaties were, it would survive. And so up until 450 AD, Attila had an understanding with the Western court. He would provide his Huns as mercenaries to prop up Roman power to keep the Germanic tribes in line. And look at it. The late Roman state has all these barbarians now settled in the Western provinces, compliments of the Huns.

And the way to keep them in line was to go to the Huns and get Huns to terrorize the Germans to stay in line. The Western court is not in a particularly good situation. And furthermore, their leading general, Aetius, who's despised by the emperor, Valentinian III, he had lived among the Huns. In fact, he met Attila when he was quite young, and when Attila was quite young, and probably saw him as the promising prince. So Aetius felt that, you know, I understand the Huns. I can speak their language. I have an understanding with Attila.

So when the situation changed abruptly in 450 and the Huns invaded the Western Empire, Aetius was thinking, well, this was not in the game plan. How did this happen? Why did it? How did it happen? Why did Attila decide to move from coexistence to invasion in 451? It's the result of personality.

It's got to be true because it's so absurd. I mean, if you wrote it as a movie clip, you wouldn't believe it. But the sister of Valentinian III, who was caught in a scandal, some sexually as with a member of the court, actually a functionary of the court, was going to be married off to this boring senator. So she wouldn't scheme and wouldn't resent her brother, who was ruler. And so she sent a message to Attila, probably written in Latin, probably read by his secretary Orestes, in my opinion, and a ring, which said something to the effect that come and rescue me or help me. And Attila concluded that this was a marriage proposal. And so he informed the Western court, oh, I'm delighted to marry the Empress Honoria.

And by the way, Gaul and Spain is the dowry prepared to hand it over. And even the weak Emperor Valentinian III and his general Aetius couldn't agree to this. I mean, this was just too much. And so they refused. As I understand it, and this is my interpretation, Attila, and you asked about his origins, he's of some type of East Asian peoples who spoke in Altaic language and were familiar with the practices of Chinese emperors vis-a-vis nomadic conquerors. Chinese emperors kept harems. They had lots of princesses. They were more than happy to send a princess to the

leading nomadic ruler with all sorts of gifts, and she would be the entree of what were known as the five baits, which is to hook these nomads on Chinese wives and cuisine and silks and fancy gifts so that they'll behave themselves. Now, for the ruler, this was a great sign of prestige. He could impose his authority over the tribes better. The Chinese emperor came to me, offered me a bride. Well, Attila probably regarded this request in the same way. In fact, he may have thought, it's about time the Romans recognize me as the great ruler of the West. And so when this was turned down, this marriage proposal, he was enraged and he switched his attacks from the Eastern Empire to the Western Empire. In 451, he poured into Gaul with a who's

who of the barbarian world. They clashed in a great battle at Chalons, which was a strategic draw. Attila withdrew. He invaded Italy the next year. The road to Rome was open, but he did not march south. That's a story in itself. It's associated with the legend of Pope Leo approaching and imploring Attila not to march on the sacred city. And I wish we had a videotape of that session. I really wondered what went on in that tent. And Attila withdrew and then died that winter overindulging. That's why I call it the great if. If he had gone on to take Rome and marry that Roman empress, who knows what history would have been. The Huns may have, in an odd way, regenerated the Roman Empire the way nomadic

conquerors would conquer northern China and create one of these composite imperialist orders based on Chinese civilization and protected by nomadic horse archers. Maybe that would have been the fate of Western Europe. But instead, what happened was Attila died, his empire fragmented, and the Germanic tribes would be the heirs of Rome. So Attila died when the Western Empire was basically at his mercy? Absolutely. If he had returned the next year, I don't see how Aetius, especially if he had invaded Italy, I don't see how Aetius could have opposed him. In 452, the emperor was in Ravenna, which is surrounded by marshes and malaria, and there was no way you could defend Rome. In 410, the Goths had entered the city and it was more organized blackmail than a sack. But Rome is easily cut

off from its water supply. It's far from the sea. And the Huns would have done the same. They would have taken the city. And Valentinian may have had very little options other than to agree to the marriage. But the collapse of the Hun Empire ensured that when the Western Empire did sort of disintegrate, successor states would be Germanic in their nature and also would be diverse. There would be no one big imperial successor state in the West of Europe. But at least these Germanic peoples, and both you and I count many ancestors come from them, I'm sure, had been exposed to Roman civilization for two centuries. Many of them were Christians of sorts or would soon become Christians,

and they were willing to cooperate with the Roman provincial populations in running these kingdoms, and they did respect the organization of the Western Church, which became an institution important for running their kingdoms, especially since they provided the literate scribes. So that the transition to the medieval kingdoms is not as great as it would have been if there had been a Han conquest. We don't know what would have followed. Was Attila a Christian by this stage? No, he was probably a shaman. There's reports he actually consulted the charred sheep bones before the Battle of Shalom, Genghis Khan and his sons would do the same. They were shamans. They believed in the spirits, the ability of the

shaman to ascend a world tree in trances, sometimes induced by drugs, hashish, and could read the future. As you say, European history would have been very, very different if Attila the Hun had just had a lemonade at his own wedding party. That's right. Our best account, or actually our best description of Attila, is from a Byzantine envoy known as Priscius of Panium, who was sent on a mission to Attila in 448-449 and wrote an account which survives in parts. It's cited by later authors, and it's been reconstructed in several translations. And he gives a physical description of Attila. One of the things he notes about Attila is Attila is generally very abstenious. He eats on simple fare, you know, wooden plates. He has lots and lots of gold and

silver, but he hands it out to supporters. He revels in battle. He has rolling extraordinary eyes. Apparently that impressed Priscus. And some of these descriptions bear comparison to Genghis Khan, who had a similar type of personality, was also abstenious in habits. To them, it was glory and conquest. But glory and conquest gave them the means to reward their followers. And they rewarded loyal followers generously. And they won over their supporters. Well, Ken, I mean, we can't stop you. You're a man determined to make comparisons between Attila and Genghis. And the great thing is, on this podcast, we're going to give you that opportunity because tomorrow, we're going to hook back up and you're going to tell me all about

Genghis, our other great conqueror of the steppe. And then maybe at the end of that episode, we can perhaps compare the two a little bit more. So thank you for coming on today. Tell everyone what your book is called. The title of the book is Empires of the Steppes. I wrote it while I was imprisoned in my house during the pandemic. Well, I've said this to many historians.

You guys were working away on magnificent books. I was doing the vacuuming and drinking beer whilst looking after my kids. That's all I did during the pandemic. Well, I was telling anecdotes to my wife that I would be citing Mongol words particularly, and she kept just shaking her head. That's very bad Turkish, canım. Canum means my soul or spirit.

It's the Turkish equivalent of honey. Well, Ken, canım, I will see you tomorrow. Thank you so much. Bye-bye.