Dan Snow's History Hit - Battle of Waterloo Skeletons Found in Attic!

Episode Date: January 24, 2023

Waterloo was one of the bloodiest battles in European history, yet until now only two bodies have ever been found on the battlefield. The remains of 10 British and Prussian soldiers who died in battle have just been discovered by the Belgian-German team Waterloo Uncovered; some skeletons had been resting in an attic for more than 40 years. The bones bare the brutality of the battle with marks from bladed weapons, one skull showing horrific damage caused by bayonet thrust or sword blow.Historian Rob Schaefer and Researcher Bernard Wilkin from the Belgian State Archive who made the discovery, both join Dan on the podcast to break the news of the astonishing find. Dan hatches a plan to get over to the lab in Belgium asap to see the bones for himself and what they can tell us about the grim, violent reality of the 50,000 men who were killed or injured on the battlefield on 18th of June 1815.Produced by Mariana Des Forges and edited by Dougal PatmoreIf you'd like to learn more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad-free podcasts and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe to History Hit today!Download the History Hit app from the Google Play store.Download the History Hit app from the Apple Store.

All right, everyone, welcome to Dan Snow's History. I've got a big episode for you today. It's more breaking news over here at History. We're working with colleagues in Europe to bring you the very exciting news that bodies have been discovered on the battlefield of Waterloo. The great clash in June 1815, the final definitive end of Napoleon's reign over France and over much of Europe, the battle that was a watershed in early modern European history. That battle, despite looming so large in people's consciousness, has never produced much in the way of archaeology. We have a couple of bodies that have been found. We have human remains discovered by our friends and colleagues over at Waterloo Uncovered, a brilliant organisation, but this is the first time this many

bodies have been uncovered for rather macabre reasons that you're about to hear. I'm joined by the team responsible for it, Bernard Wilkins, who's a senior researcher at the Belgian State Archive, and he's collaborating with friend of the pod Rob Schaefer, who's a German military historian, researcher, and writer. He's been able to do some archival work helping to understand more about these bodies. This is big news you'll hear on the recording. I was surprised to learn there's a British body as well. So we have a British body from the Battle of Waterloo. Not just any British body, but it appears to be a body from the guards, the men who were responsible for defeating Napoleon's last gasp, the final throw of the dice, the final attack of the old guard, Napoleon's elite, who headed up, climbed up to

the ridge on which Wellington's allied army was standing in the very dying moments of the battle and were repulsed. If it is true that we have a British Guardsman, it would be very, very important and exciting indeed. As a result of this podcast, I'm heading out to Waterloo on the 1st of February. If you follow my social media themes, I'll be broadcasting live from the lab in which we'll be looking at these remains. We'll be producing more podcasts and videos for the History Hit YouTube feed and History Hit TV, so make sure you're a subscriber over there and can check out the World's Best History channel. But what about the Battle of Waterloo fought on the 18th of June,

1815? An Allied army led by the Duke of Wellington. Dutch troops, German troops, troops drawn from what is now modern-day Belgium, and course, British troops fought from the late morning through to the afternoon against Napoleon's French army as he tried to push north towards Brussels. It was a bloody slog. Infantry attacks, cavalry attacks launched and repulsed. Then in the afternoon of the 18th of June, the Prussian army under Field Marshal Blucher arrived on Napoleon's right flank, his eastern flank, and Napoleon was forced to start diverting troops and fight in a formation that looks like two sides of a square, like a right angle, pressured from both sides. The fighting against the Prussians was fiercest at a place called Ploncenois, a village which saw

house-to-house fighting. And as you'll hear, some of those bodies seem to have been buried and now recovered. This is fascinating and important stuff. These bodies will enable us to learn so much more about the men who fought and died at Waterloo, a battle in which the experience of the fighting men is often obscured by the focus on the big operational level, the strategic level movements, the decisions made by Wellington, Marshal Ney, Emperor Napoleon,

Field Marshal Blucher. But in fact, it's the experience of the men on that terrible bloody field that we should be remembering. And these bodies will help us do that. Enjoy this podcast. And remember, this is just the beginning. In partnership with the Belgian State Archive,

we will be in the lab with these bodies on the 1st of February. So watch and listen to this space. Enjoy. T-minus 10. The Thomas bomb dropped on Hiroshima. God save the king. No black-white unity till there is first and black unity. Never to go to war with one another again.

And lift off. And the shuttle has cleared the tower. Rob and Bernard, welcome back to the podcast. Hello. Hi Dan. What an extraordinary breakthrough. Last time you were on the podcast, we discussed why very few bodies have ever been found on the battlefield of Waterloo. Can you just remind the audience how many human remains have been found and why so few? So far, as far as I'm informed, Bernard might correct me there.

In recent years, only two sets of human remains have ever been discovered on the Waterloo battlefield by archaeology. One of the reasons being that there was industrial exploitation of human remains on that battlefield in the middle of the 19th century that took place. Maybe, Bernard, if you want to say something about this. We discovered that basically bones all over Europe, including Waterloo, were dug by farmers mostly and sold to the sugar industry to produce a certain type of charcoal. It was used to purify sugar. And we have plenty of evidence, which was, I think, quite groundbreaking as a research and made a lot of noise.

So these bodies were excavated and used in industrial agricultural processes. So it makes your new discoveries even more important. What, Bernard and Rob, have you found? Well, I was giving a conference paper in Waterloo, actually, at the Memorial of Waterloo, about the topic of bones and the industrial use by sugar factories. And after the end of the conference, I was approached by a man who told me, listen, that was very interesting. And you should know that I have a few Prussians in my attic. And of course, I was a bit surprised. And he asked a friend of his to show me a few pictures on the phone.

And indeed, there were some bones. And he explained to me that those had been found by a friend in Plancenoise, where the Prussians and the French fought during construction work. And they were brought to his attic because at the time he owned a small private museum. And the goal was to expose the bones as a display exhibition. And because he thought that was ethically unacceptable, he kept them all these years. thought that was ethically unacceptable. He kept them all these years. And since I was talking about bones, he thought this is perhaps the right moment to invite you, since you work for the National Archives of Belgium, and perhaps you could take care of those bones and bring them back to your institution. That is extraordinary. Now, we should say,

you mentioned it's the Prussian part of the battlefield. It's where later in the day, the Prussian army pushed in on Napoleon's eastern flank, catching Napoleon in a kind of pincer movement between well into the north and the Prussians to the east. What condition are the bones in? Have you been to see them? Yes, absolutely. I was invited to recover the boxes in which the bones were. So the skeletons are not complete. There are some bones obviously missing. But we have two skulls in very good condition and various bones. And we also have by side discoveries, mostly pieces of leather and bone buttons as well. Rob, this is extremely unusual, isn't it? Yes, it is. It is very unusual. And I

was very excited when I learned about this, because it's the first time that someone comes and says, I found some evidence of Prussians on the battlefield. So none of the human remains discovered so far are Prussian. And they tie nicely into this forgotten story of the second battle within the Battle of Waterloo, the Battle of Plain-sur-Noir, which is not much talked about in English historiography nowadays. So it's super, super exciting, in particular because, if I may say that, it's difficult to phrase that correctly for me because I don't want to be too excited about the fact that many of these bones we found there or that were found there in Plain-sur-Noir bear

signs of quite vicious trauma by weapons, bladed weapons, and it's really shocking to see. Yeah, please tell me more about what the bones can tell us at first sight about the Battle of Waterloo and about these individuals. Well, already, I mean, I have contacts with a forensic professor who's the top legal authority here, Liège, and he had a first look at the bones. There's going to be further scientific analysis, but he already determined

that one of the individuals was probably killed by a very hard blow on the face. And the skull definitely shows heavy signs of violence. The front teeth also were broken premortem as well. We have various signs of violence due to blades or perhaps bayonets as well. And everything fits. They have the right age, the right size as well. They're all made, obviously. And at first, we thought we had two individuals,

but actually there is four of them at least. Four individuals. Do we think they're all Prussians or might there be French skeletons in there as well? There might indeed be French material in there as well, which is why we have passed them on to Professor Boxot in Liège, who is now conducting DNA and strontium isotope analysis. So we're still waiting for the results there. Yes, and we should also have a facial reconstruction and various analysis to determine the ethnicity and the geographical location and everything.

The problem is the bifines that came with the bones which we saw. There might have been others earlier on. There's evidence for that but the by finds which we have at the moment are whereas bernard said there are some leather pieces which stem from a shoe or which seem to stem from a shoe and there are a few bone buttons and this is basically basic napoleonic kit for all armies of the 19th century the bones were identical five whole bones leather. The French did have patterned shoes, so they did indeed have a shoe pattern for the French army, but the Prussians didn't.

They used all kinds of materials they could get their hands on, in particular for their militia units, which fought at Blanc-sur-Noir in large numbers. So it's difficult to say from the finds we have that they are actually Prussian, but they were identified as Prussians when they were found. And as I said, there was evidence

that there were more by-finds than that. And from their location, it's pretty clear that they are Prussian, although there is a chance that they are French as well. You listen to Dan Snow's History Hit. We're talking about bodies found at the battlefield of Waterloo.

More coming up. I'm Matt Lewis. And I'm Dr. Alan Orjanaga. Coming up. And are there any other people come out of the woodwork and said i also have waterloo bones that you need to look at well the story is taking really a crazy turn because i was staying with the man who gave me the bones and he told me by the way i have a friend with a metal detectorist and he he has about four British as well. What? Yes. So I was very intrigued by that, of course. And I also enlisted the help of a colleague of mine who was called Dominique Bosquet,

who was an archaeologist for the Walloon Heritage Agency. And together, we indeed recovered the bones of perhaps four individuals. We don't know yet because they need to be examined by an anthropologist or a forensic, but they were discovered not far away from the Lion Mount. And alongside there was a badge, I think, from the First Guard Regiment. Of the First Guards. So they were on the ridge at Waterloo and they repulsed the attack of the old guard, the Imperial Guard. They leaked Napoleonic troops at the very end of the battle. That's extraordinary. Yes, presumably that's the story behind them. Of course, they need to be scientifically

analysed, but it seems that it's the case. And is it legal for metal detectors to... Well, you can have an authorisation from the Walloon Agency, Heritage Agency, but I think in this case, those were dug illegally. That said, at least the guy who found them won the authorities and they were finally given to us. At least they're now in the right hands. Yes, so the story ends in this case. But to be frank with you, I know of cases of bones that were discovered and just displayed in private collections. Oh, really? So you think there are more bones in the area? plus the horses, of course. So yes, although we explained why probably mass graves were dug out, there are still probably quite a lot of bodies to be found in the individual graves. This is significant news

because Waterloo was a huge battle involving nations from right across Europe. I think this will be the centre of interest from all over the continent, won't it? Yes, we suppose that will garner a lot of interest internationally. Where it goes, we don't know yet. It's also to be seen what else science

can discover about these people. Who were they? Where did they come from? How did they suffer? Did they suffer long? What are their cultural roots? And then we need to see. Yeah, it's highly interesting.

I find the whole detective work super, super interesting in general. We already learned that one of them was a heavy pipe smoker and right-handed, and one of them had several abscess in his mouth from rotten teeth, and it's just super, super interesting. But, you know, it just reminds us that, oh, that didn't happen that long ago. And it forms this tangible link to understanding the people and the battle and what they fought for and who they were. It's fantastic. Well, I'm very, very excited indeed. So I'm going to come out there as soon as possible.

And people should watch and listen to this space. We'll be doing much more on this. But tell me, Rob, you mentioned isotopic analysis and things, as well as the reconstruction, learning from the bones themselves. What are we expecting the science to tell us over the next few weeks? Well, in the best of cases, science will be able to tell us if they fought in the French army or in the Prussian to finally answer that, let's call it an open question. So that is what I'm looking for. That is not a given, because as you know, strontium analysis is very much based on geology. And the French army was a very international army. There were lots of Germans fighting on the French side.

So it might be a bit difficult to get a good result there, but this is something I'm very much looking forward to. I'm not sure, maybe Bernard can say a bit more about the DNA. Yes, there is a 30% chance that this will work. The bones are degraded. They are much lighter than they should be as well. So we don't know yet if it's going to work. But what is for sure is that we're going to try.

I think it's really exciting also to have the prospect of putting a face on the soldier because they will be reconstructed scientifically. And perhaps for the first time in a long time, we will have the face of private soldiers, the lower ranks, instead of having only generals, colonels and stuff like that. It is very exciting and the DNA raised the possibility we may be able to find descendants. That could be. We could think about comparing it to those popular genealogical databases. We could find relatives indeed. Imagine finding out that your ancestor or your relative was one of the bodies found on the

field of Waterloo. That is just mind-blowing. Bernardo, I should say, do you think this will lead to more people coming forward as the Belgians in the area realise that these family heirlooms in their attic, these strange curios might actually be, well, are very important human remains and should be handed into scientists and the relevant authorities? Well, it's a good question. I certainly hope so. I know that, you know, the Belgian attitude on bones is not the same as the British one. We usually don't look at them like sacred relics. There is not the same respect about casualties of war. But I think that more and more people are understanding nowadays

that this is important to come forward and to give them to the proper authorities for scientific analysis and just also to give them a place to rest. Yes, what will happen to the bodies once they've been analysed? Well, it's still a matter of debate as well, but I'm currently in contact with local authorities of Plan Sonor. The hope, of course, is to bury them as close as we can to where they fell and to give them perhaps a memorial or at least remember them.

Rob, in Germany, how is the Prussian forebears of the German state? How are they remembered? Are they thought of as fully German or the fact that they're from a pre-unification state somehow clouds the memory? It's difficult to answer. I think if you look at the current German population, most of the people won't even know what that period was, what happened, what went on. We talked about that before in the past. You probably remember you asked me the same question or a similar question in 2014 when you asked me whether the Germans remember the First World War. And I told you they don't really because it's all overshadowed by the great catastrophe that was the Second World War, the Third Reich, the crimes of the Nazis, etc., etc.

war, the Third Reich, the crimes of the Nazis, etc., etc. And very much the same applies to the German perception of the Napoleonic Wars, the wars of liberation that has more or less been forgotten. That's why I say to Bernard, for me personally, it's very important to give these men a proper, nice burial and a ceremony they would recognize. Because if you look back in history in Prussia, or let's call it in the german states at that time originating from prussia and radiating from prussia these casualties of war are the first which are remembered by name and commemorated by name i think in all of europe as early as 1813 these casualties of these wars were remembered by name in prussia you know their names went up in churches not only the officers every single prussian soldier killed during these wars was

remembered somewhere locally in name with a memorial when the veterans of these wars died in the 1860s their little campaign medals were nailed to these old boards to join their comrades in memory which had fallen in these wars of liberation. It was a very important thing, which was, of course, a matter of propaganda, because the Germans used this pseudo-religious idea of the struggle against the French to build the nation. That's the start of German nationalism, of the birth of the German nation. It's super, super interesting. Yes, and all that has been forgotten. Nowadays, no one remembers this. The old boards in the churches have been taken down. Many of them fell victim to the Second

World War, were plundered, burned. So the memory is very much forgotten. Here in the area where I live in Westphalia, there are still quite a lot of these memorials around, actually. So it might well be that the men we found at Plans-sur-Noir are remembered locally here in the church where I live. It's not impossible. And Bernard, do you think in terms of the Belgian people's relationship with Waterloo, there were Dutch and Belgian troops there. How is the battle remembered in Belgium today? And would human remains help new generations explore this extraordinary history? The battle is remembered mostly as something that is no concern for Belgium whatsoever,

because there is no Belgian army per se. Belgium doesn't exist at the time. And I think it's more a thing of tourism and local folklore. You know, you go with your parents when you were a child there, and then you completely forget about it unless you're you know a hardcore history buff so i'm not entirely sure that the bones will help but i think that the skull bearing the violence of the battle might be helpful because it really is something moving as i was explaining to rob when i was looking at the teeth that were, you know, broken by the battle of the rifle.

For the first time, really, I had a feeling to visualize the violence of the battle. I think the pictures that you've sent me definitely help you do that. Bernard and Rob, thank you very much indeed. I am looking forward to seeing you guys. Thank you. Thank you. thank you thank you see you

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