Dan Snow's History Hit - Britain's Black Power Movement

Episode Date: December 19, 2020

Leila Hassan Howe and Amanda Kirton joined me on the podcast to talk about the history of the Black Power movement in Britain.Subscribe to History Hit and you'll get access to hundreds of history documentaries, as well as every single episode of this podcast from the beginning (400 extra episodes). We're running live podcasts on Zoom, we've got weekly quizzes where you can win prizes, and exclusive subscriber only articles. It's the ultimate history package. Just go to historyhit.tv to subscribe. Use code 'pod1' at checkout for your first month free and the following month for just £/€/$1.

Douglas Adams, the genius behind The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, was a master satirist who cloaked a sharp political edge beneath his absurdist wit. Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth explores the ideas of the man who foresaw the dangers of the digital age and our failing politics with astounding clarity. Hear the recordings that inspired a generation of futurists, entrepreneurs and politicians. Get Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth now at pushkin.fm slash audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold. Hi everyone, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. We're talking about black power. Now, the black power movement, we're not talking about in the US, we're talking about in England. This

is the forgotten story of the UK black power movement. It's a remarkable story. It's sort of forgotten history. On this podcast, we're lucky enough to have a veteran of the black power movement. We've got Leela Hassan Howe. She was a founding member of the Race Today Collective. She was a member of the Black Unity and Freedom Party. the Race Today Collective. She was a member of the Black Unity and Freedom Party. She was at the forefront of the struggle for racial equality in the 1960s and 70s. We're also talking to Amanda Curtin. She's a BBC journalist and she was the one who put me in touch with Leela and has done so much research and broadcasting around this topic as well. So it's great to welcome these two to the podcast. If you've forgotten to buy some Christmasmas presents you want to gift something to someone you can head over to historyhit.com shop we've

got subscriptions to history hit tv the world's best history channel it's like netflix for history they're going cheap and they're going on there you can gift someone that subscription and they won't even know that it's because you forgot to get them something physical in a shop good for your carbon footprint too so please head over there and do that i hope everyone's looking forward to the christmas truce podcast and tv show launching next week can't wait to show you all that really excited about that but in the meantime everyone here's the excellent mandy cadden and lina san how enjoy lila and mandy thank you very much for coming on the podcast. Thank you. I hope we have a good discussion.

Lila, can I start with you? As a young person of colour growing up in the UK at that time, what was it like? So because I left when I was about 10 years old, I was aware that I was black, that I was different. There was definitely racism against me. But because I was young at that time I just knew that I was different and that people didn't like me because of my colour but I think my big experience came when I came back in 64 to live in England in 64 when at the time of mass immigration and then it stopped from not liking you insulting you to outright hostility. So there was very, very hostile feelings towards the newly immigrant population. But although people say Windrush is 48, mass immigration into Britain didn't happen until the 60s. And in the 60s, you have

swathes of people coming over from India, Pakistan and the Caribbean and a small population from Africa. And it's that mass immigration, which I kind of grew up in and the host, and a small population from Africa. And it's that mass immigration, which I kind of grew up in, and the hostility to immigrants in this country. So I went to school, I came back from Africa, because it was a colonial education, it was of a very high standard, probably higher than the standard I would have had if I'd stayed in the United Kingdom. So I went to a grammar school, I went to Plastow Grammar School and there were just three other black students in the school and in class in a geography lesson I remember apropos of nothing a student would get up and say or pupil would get up and say miss miss this isn't fair my dad says they're coming here to take our jobs why are these people coming to our country we don't want them here. So in the playground, nobody would play with us.

We were ostracised. And generally, it was a feeling of hostility. My mother was English and she had remarried an English person. They attended probably the West Ham Working Men's Club, which was in Plastow Canning Town. And they did not allow black people into that club. And I know once I went to find my mum who was in the club, that was their social life, the working men's club at that time.

When I got to the door, they stopped me. And then somebody said, oh, no, let her in. She's Lily's daughter. So they didn't allow black people in their social clubs. And just generally, the feeling was very, very, one of almost hatred of the immigrant population that had come here. Because I lived in East London, I saw the Dockers march in support of Enoch Powell's rivers of blood speech. And so very much I felt very alienated, very lonely, being a half black, half white person in East London.

And although there were other people like me, because I had come from Africa, I wasn't really prepared to accommodate the racism in a joke. from Africa I wasn't really prepared to accommodate the racism in a joke so many people who'd grown up who'd sort of been born in England and were around my age group and were probably half white half black they would accommodate racism and take it as a joke so people would crack jokes about you or about black people or their inferiority and people would shrug it off well I wasn't able to do that because I had lived in Africa my father was a pan-Africanist anti-colonial. So I was very much always, always in complete argument with my mother and stepfather, day in, day out. It was a very unhappy existence, actually. Mandy, you've interviewed so many people who found themselves in Lila's position.

Have you come across this across the board? Just before this one, I'd done another documentary. And in that documentary, I spoke to Leroy Logan and a guy called Sheldon Thomas about 1980s and the riots. And they'd explained a lot about the police brutality and the racism and the racism from the NF and stuff like that. So I was really interested to go on to this one. So when I was talking to Leela and Farouk and Agaika Tariq Ali and Winston True,

and they were talking about just the blatant kind of racism that they would get on a day-to-day basis, it just built a bigger picture for me, even though I had known that there was racism there from my parents from people in my family and just from history but like it built this picture of just kind of them being in a place where there was no choice there was no other choice than them kind of fighting against it like there was nowhere else for them to go apart from resistance basically well it's that resistance that was the really surprising part of your work

for me with becoming more and more familiar with with the stories of people of color from that period but what what i did not know was the extent of of the black power movement which we associate with the us and that's something that you just delved into so brilliantly. I'd heard of movements but I didn't know that they were that they had occurred with such depth and such passion in the UK and it's it's really sad actually because I found that it was easier to access the history that what happened in America and maybe happened in Jamaica or other countries than it was to access the history of the people who were right here in this country and they're still here you know people like Leela who we should be kind of learning from every single day about what happened and why it happened and you know kind of what she thinks things. So it was a bit of a challenge because the history is not as accessible.

The pictures aren't as accessible. The videos aren't as accessible. So that's why you're not seeing lots of stuff out there, which I think, you know, it should be made more accessible. I mean, a prime example is we were looking for a picture of Leela back in the day with her afro and in all of her glory and she sent us this fabulous picture of herself with an afro in the middle of a protest with her fist up and we were like great this is like our British Angela Davis you know we're definitely going to use this and

yeah we couldn't get the rights for the picture. And, you know, whoever had owned that picture before, it had been lost, their archives had been lost, so we just couldn't use the picture. And there were so many different pictures like that. There's so much good material that a lot of people can't use because it's just not accessible. So I think it's a shame because it's like, who owns the history? And, you know, that history can't stay hidden.

So the thing about the Black Power organisations is that there was a Black Power organisation in every single city in the UK, in Nottingham, in Birmingham, in Coventry, Leeds, Manchester. We all knew each other. So in every major city, there was a Black Power organisation who produced a newspaper. We all produced our own newspapers. And we talked about the racism and the fight that we were having against it in this country. And I think probably the Institute of Race Relations is the only place where you, and probably the British Library as well, of course, where you could see these journals that were published at the time. But it was quite a large movement. And I know the BBC, with Rogan Productions, have made a Black Power documentary on the British Black Power movement

that's going to be screened in January. I only know that because I was interviewed for it. So that will probably be the first time people will understand the range and the depth and the size of the Black Power movement in Britain in the 70s, well, the late 60s and through the 70s. Was this a British-led movement? Well, it was a British-led movement because at that time, a lot of us still had connections with the Caribbean,

much stronger connections than now. And the Caribbean was in political ferment as well. So it drew inspiration most definitely from the United States. There is no doubt that the Black Panther movement and the demands the Black Panthers had were adopted by every Black Power organization in Britain. But our coverage in our newspapers was much about the Caribbean and liberation movements in Africa, in Mozambique, Angola and Guinea-Bissau at that time, still ruled by the Portuguese. Our coverage was international as well as national. So it was kind of an international movement, I would say. And because many of the members of the movement had probably been born in the Caribbean and come over as children at that time,

there was that connection very much with the Caribbean. There was a kind of global agenda, but what did you want to achieve within the UK? So within the UK, the major demand of many of these organisations was that the police should stop beating up black people and framing them. That was very widespread. It's been documented now in the 50s, 60s, Steve McQueen's film on the mangrove has shown this. So one of the major demands for all of us was the end to police brutality, as we called it. That was the kind of phrase used, police brutality. But our demands were also for decent education,

better housing, basically that we should not be considered second-class citizens in this country, that we had rights as much as our white counterparts and that we were going to fight for them. I mean, I talk about that period in Black history very much like a renaissance because the cultural expression

of that political movement, Linton Crazy Johnson of course is one of the poets, but the arts, the music, it was the beginnings of the Black theatre co-op, Black artists had their first exhibitions in the early 80s, there was a whole cultural movement as well that went side by side with this political movement, writers, literature, forums, discussion, we'd organise that ourselves without any money from the state. None of this was funded. We funded it all ourselves. So definitely, it was really a big movement for change that was both political and cultural. This is History Hit. You're listening to Mandy Curtin and Lila Hassan Howe. More after this.

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Mandy Leela is too modest to tell us, but I mean, she was a leading light within that movement. And did you notice that when you were doing these interviews, this research, I mean, the role of women looms very large within this movement? Yeah, I mean, it's just amazing hearing Leela talk because I could listen to her all day talking about this stuff because it's just it feels so new. Just even hearing about their publications and major Black Power movements in every city, I think that the thing that struck me when I was doing this is the women and the fact that the people who we do know now, it's generally, we look back to the men of the movements, of the movement, not the women. When we went through all the archives of like the protests and you know everything that was happening then we have a research team at the bbc and you

know we kept saying why don't you research this and research this and can you find leela here and can you find leela there and they couldn't she wasn't astonished in any of the archive and we literally sat through hours of archive thinking maybe we'll see her in a protest and we saw her more than a protest we saw her hosting shows we saw her hosting panels we saw her as a guest and you know she had this message that she was giving you know we're not victims we're moving through this and we're you know kind of pushing through this and I thought she was an inspirational figure back then and then you have people like kind of Althea Jones-Leconte who she's featured in The Mangrove but you really hear about her and you know these are women who kind of I

don't know somehow through the years were were lost in history but I just think it's amazing now that they've got a voice again and they're speaking and people are listening because they've got so much to say and you know I think it's you know it's a thing with women through the years that you know they've had to kind of fight for their voice and so this movement has been no different listening to Leela and you know the other women of the movement, I just think they're so inspirational and they just need to be heard a lot more. Leela, let's hear a lot more.

What was it like? Was it exciting? I am so glad to have been born at that time because at that time, because there was a movement for change generally in the world. So you've got Paris 68, you've got the women's movement in America, you've got the big civil rights and black power movements in the United States, you've got freedom being fought for in southern Africa and across the world. So for us, when we woke up in the morning, the activists in this, we actually believed we were in control of our own destiny, that we were out to change the world,

we were out to reshape the world. So it was hugely exciting, really was I mean I moved to Brixton in 73 74 and I always tell people I would wake up in the morning in Brixton you would wake up walk into the market sound systems would be playing you'd pass the front line with all the guys out there saying hello to you you knew most of the people if you didn't know them by name you knew of them you knew the roads we were in a community and we grew up in a very strong community in Brixton. And that feeling, I mean, that has gone. I mean, most definitely. We've certainly gone in Brixton. That feeling we had of, you know, we are the shapers of our own destiny. We're out to do stuff. Yeah. Extremely exciting. Extremely inspirational.

But was it threatening as well because there was violence? Constantly, constantly. I mean, Darkus, who I later married, he was arrested six times, won his case on five occasions and was sent to prison on the sixth. We were always aware of the police presence. And more than that, we were aware of a lot, particularly young black men who were being brutalised by the police. And so we, particularly as women, we were aware of a lot, particularly young black men who were being brutalised by the police.

And so we, particularly as women, we saw our role as really defending the community, of making sure that these issues were raised, that we fought the cases, that we supported the community in their fight against the police. So there was always that arm of the police and that threat. But because of being young and fearless, that was never our major preoccupation. We were a set of fearless young and fearless, that was never our major preoccupation. We were a set of fearless young people at that time. Sitting here now in 2020 and looking at the world, looking at the next generation that have come through, the next couple of generations, do you feel that you made tangible gains? Did you move the needle? Did you win? Absolutely. No doubt about it. When I grew up, there were probably

three black people at Cambridge, maybe not even three, all overseas students. There are very few people in universities. If you came over to Britain at that time, as my husband had done, with a degree and with an education, people didn't believe you. His first job was in the post office, because when he went to the civil service with these qualifications, he was told he was lying, that he couldn't possibly have that education. So you had a set of professional people who came to Britain also with mass immigration, who ended up in working class life and in working class roles, which also added strength to our movement as well, I must say. So in terms of education achievement, without a doubt, our parents came over, the parents of that generation came over very much defeated because they had gone through colonialism,

thought their countries would have changed, didn't, and then all were forced, well, were invited to come to Britain in order to find a better life for themselves. The confidence of this younger generation in terms of what they want to achieve, they think they can achieve it is certainly different from the era in which I grew up in I mean you have to look at history people speak to me and they say not much has changed has it the police are still bad with you know there's still issues with exclusions with young black boys in education we're still at the bottom of the barrel but I say you have to look at it from a historical sense and if you look at where we were in the 60s the 70s and the 80s to where we are today we have come on leaps and bounds without a doubt. How did you personally stop yourself from letting the anger

gain the upper hand? I think because you are you've decided that you're not going to be a victim to it I think because you've decided you've got two options here. I can either accept everything that they say, accept that we can't change anything and just be at the bottom of the barrel or we can do something about it. And the minute our mindset or the community's mindset had changed, as we always said it, from victim to protagonist,

then your personality changes in order to kind of be that protagonist in society. Mandy, do you feel that you've benefited in your life and career from the sacrifices and struggles of leaders' generation? Yeah, definitely. As a black woman, I definitely appreciate and hold these people on my shoulders because, you know, I wouldn't be where I am if they hadn't kind of sacrificed and spoken out and pushed the boundaries. And, you know, just kind of speaking to Leela, working with her and, you know, just like seeing her in action just makes me see kind of as well what I can achieve, because if she could have achieved it back then and she's done all of this groundwork, then, you know, I should be kind of pushing it even further as a woman and as a black woman. that the thing that the one of the reasons as well why I wanted to do the piece is that if you don't know about this stuff then you know you can't be in you can't be inspired and propelled

and pushed forward by it so once you kind of know more about what was achieved how it was achieved why it was achieved then it almost gives you the strength and the energy to move yourself forward. And I think that that's the difference between, as Leela was talking about, remaining a victim, or, you know, kind of rising above that and going further. So yeah, I mean, I think that like, people like Leela, you know, all I can do is thank them and you know try to tell their story because I think that for all of us in England like we need to know this and for the people who are you know kind of involved in anti-racist struggles now and we're involved in BLM and stuff like that you know we can't move forward until we kind of learn from the people in the past so you know I feel grateful

that people like Leela are around to kind of still speak and still what's to still learn from them what have you witnessed those same people that were tempted not to let you in as a little girl into that into that social club those same people kids, people like me, what changed us? Well, I think the fact that we weren't victims, that we fought back. And I think the fact that we fought back in every area of society. I mean, the fight now we have, I understand, 40 MPs in Parliament who are not, you know, white British. Well, when we grew up, we had to fight

to get four people, Diane Abbott, Bernie Grant, Paul Boateng and Keith Vaz, to let the Labour Party accept that there should be black people in the Labour Party and had a right to have black sections. So at every stage, we have kind of pushed forward demands that have also enhanced the democracy of Britain. It isn't just, you know, a race struggle. But the major change that I see, and I've seen in my living life, I have one remaining white relative of my mother's generation, my uncle George, who is as right wing as anyone could be. But whenever he comes to the subject of race, partly because of me, but just generally, his attitudes have changed completely.

And he talks about the rights of people to be able to live and stay and work in this country. And the fact that we have contributed. I mean, there's an acknowledgement now that that working class generation that came in and service the health industry, that service London Transport and the foundries that we contributed. So he is as horrified about what happened to the windrush generation those people who were deported because they were brought here to work you know that whole thing as i am and i can see that change but the major change i have seen and i was reminded by steve mcqueen's program on sunday when he showed the black people's day of action and if you look closely at those photographs there are very very few white people on that demonstration supporting the demands of the Black People's Day of Action. If you look at the Black Lives Matter protests today, you will see thousands of young white

people who are demanding justice and equality side by side with young Black people. And that, to me, has shown the huge change on the subject of race, structural racism, the legacy of colonialism, that that change has happened in a major way by the thousands and thousands of young white people who have come out in support. I went on the Black Lives Matter demonstration outside the American embassy and I looked at the crowd and there were thousands of young white people taking the knee and chanting the slogans. When I grew up, believe you me, Dan, that would never have happened. Well, they were there in part because of your hard work.

Thank you very much for coming. Mandy, tell us where we can watch more of you and Leela. So you can go to YouTube and it's the BBC channel on YouTube. They've got the UK Black Power piece on their channel it should be going as a collection on the iPlayer as well sitting alongside the small act stuff I mean if you've got Instagram it's on Instagram as well you know and we may be doing more next year because it's the anniversary as well isn't it of a lot of the uprisings. But I just want to say that, you know, it's not completely easy for us now as Black people in industry or in traditional companies.

There's been a path made by people like Leela. But as Leela said, there were people who were on the protest who were supporting. And I think that we need to stick think that we we need to stick together we all need to stick together we want to have that future where everybody's equal and everybody's respected and so you know we need champions we need people who are allies and you know I think all of that helps in the kind of fight against injustices and inequalities basically. Thank you very much for coming on the pod both of you thank you very basically. Thank you very much for coming on the pod, both of you. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Hope you enjoyed the podcast. Just before you go, bit of a favour to ask. I totally understand if you don't want to become a subscriber or pay me any cash money, makes sense. But if you could just do me a favour, it's for free. Go to iTunes or wherever you get your podcast. If you give it a five-star rating and give it an absolutely glowing review, purge yourself, give it a glowing review, I'd really appreciate that. It's tough weather, the law of the jungle out there, and I need all the fire support I can get. So that will boost it up the charts. It's so tiresome, but if you could do it, I'd be very, very grateful. Thank you. boosted up the charts. It's so tiresome, but if you could do it, I'd be very, very grateful. Thank you.

Douglas Adams, the genius behind The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, was a master satirist who cloaked a sharp political edge beneath his absurdist wit. Douglas Adams, The Ends of the Earth, explores the ideas of the man who foresaw the dangers of the digital age and our failing politics with astounding clarity. Hear the recordings that inspired a generation of futurists, entrepreneurs and politicians. Get Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth now at pushkin.fm slash audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold.