Dan Snow's History Hit - Churchill's Daughters: The Privilege and the Pain

Episode Date: June 17, 2021

Winston Churchill's daughters Diana, Sarah, Marigold and Mary are often overshadowed by their father's extraordinary fame but they also lived fascinating lives and were often present at many of the seismic moments of history. Their lives were far from easy though. Marigold died at the age of two, Diana would suffer mental health problems and eventually committed suicide and Sarah wrestled with alcoholism. This is a story of a family at the very heart of political and social life and a story about what it's like to grow up as a child of greatness.To help tell this story Rachel Trethewey, author of The Churchill Girls: The Story of Winston's Daughters, is today's guest on the podcast and she discusses their upbringing, their relationship with their parents, the role the daughters played in supporting Winston's career and what they each aspired to do with their own lives

This is History's Heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas, and the courage to stand alone. Including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the First World War. You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, Sonny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you. Join me, Alex von Tunzelman, for History's Heroes. Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Dan Snow's History. We've had a lot of episodes on this podcast talking about Winston Churchill.

We've talked about his great successes, his failures, his attitude towards empire and race, his domestic policy, his leadership style. On this podcast we are going to talk about his daughters. Rachel Trethui has just written the first biography of Winston Churchill's daughters, Diana, Sarah, Marigold and Mary. They lived really extraordinary lives and they are present at many of the seismic moments of Churchill's career. Winston Churchill had had a very difficult relationship with his parents. They were remote. They were inaccessible. They were too busy to worry about what their son was up to. And Winston was desperate to do things differently. He spent a huge amount of time with his kids. He built them a tree house. He was probably more involved than many of his

generation and breeding would have been. Even so, there were enormous challenges growing up as the children of Winston Churchill. There was Diana, there was Randolph, his boy, of course, but Sarah, Marigold and Mary. Marigold died after just two and a half years, a deeply traumatic event in the early 1920s for the Churchill family. The others would go on remarkable life journeys, which weren't easy. Churchill suffered bouts of depression during his life. Diana would develop mental health problems and eventually committed suicide. Sarah wrestled with alcoholism. This is a story about a family at the very heart of British political and social life, and a story about what it's like to grow up as a child of greatness. Rachel Trithui has found all sorts of new archival material, and it's an absolutely fascinating

discussion of this over-scrutinized family, just demonstrating there's always more that we can learn. If you want to go and watch some more Churchill content, we've got quite a lot at the moment on historyhit.tv. It's obviously the big 80th anniversary of Humphrey Bismarck. Churchill features prominently there, but also we have our documentaries about Churchill in May 1940 when he hits the oratorical heights in convincing Britain and his cabinet, perhaps more importantly, to stay in the fight against Adolf Hitler. That's all there, available at historyhit.tv. It is the world's best history channel. Go and check it out, historyhit.tv. Go and sign up. It'd be great to have you on there. In the meantime, here's Rachel Trethui. Enjoy.

Rachel, great to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. I mean, I think having a super famous and celebrated and successful dad must be just the worst thing. Those girls, did they all have a similar response to their father's fame and success in their own lives, or did they have very different life outcomes? They all had really different life outcomes. There were four daughters and unfortunately Marigold, who was the third daughter, didn't live to fulfil her potential. She died when she was only two years and nine months from septicemia. But the other three women had lives that were full of

drama, romance and unfortunately a lot of tragedy. And they reacted in different ways, reflecting their different personalities. Diana was the oldest and she was shy. Sarah was full of confidence and wanted to go on the stage. Whereas Mary was a very happy character who had a very full life. What was expected of aristocratic girls when they were growing up? Most aristocratic girls were expected to come out as debutantes, have a good season, meet their husbands and then have children. And that didn't really interest the Churchill girls. Although they came from an aristocratic background, they had this great sense of public

service and doing their duty. So none of them really enjoyed being debutantes. And they all really wanted to prove themselves to their father and their mother. In what way do they want to prove themselves through sort of artistic accomplishment, creativity, or by getting jobs, by joining the huge regiment of women that were now in the workplace? Only Sarah wanted to be in the working world. She wanted to become an actress and dancer. And she went on the stage as soon as she'd left finishing school. And she was as driven as her father was in politics in that career. And she was always on the cusp of fame. She was nearly a great actress, nearly a great beauty, but she never quite made it because she had a self-destructive streak. The other two, Diana and Mary, were much more like their mother. And although they both did a lot of good work during the war, and in fact,

Mary had a very successful war career, both wanted to be wives and mothers primarily. And what about their dad? Did their dad care about what happened to his girls? Or was he sort of focused on his sort of patriarchy, you know, his boys following? Or did he focus on his kids at all? Because his dad had kind of ignored him growing up, hadn't he, old Randolph? Yes, Winston was very affected by his relationship with his father and he was determined not to have a relationship like that with any of his children. And he didn't. It was different. He wanted his son, Randolph, to follow in his footsteps and he believed that only boys could go into politics. So Randolph was always treated as the crown prince and the star. And he was literally treated as though he mattered more and could talk to politicians,

whereas the girls always took second place. And they were taught that their lives revolved around their father and then around their brother. So he loved them all very much. And I think he loved them all in a way equally, but in different ways, reflecting their different personalities. I think he loved them all in a way equally, but in different ways, reflecting their different personalities. And actually, in the long run, the girls did him much better than Randolph did. There were more clashes with Randolph and Randolph embarrassed him much more often, whereas the girls actually were really supportive and fitted their lives around him and made him proud, particularly during the war. Did he have time for them?

He didn't have a lot of time because Winston always believed in his destiny. He always believed he would lead the country. And so he was always either Home Secretary when the first children were born, later Chancellor of the Exchequer, and of course, when they were older, Prime Minister. And both he and his wife Clementine's life was dedicated to getting him to that point, which means he didn't have a lot of time for the children. However, when he was there, he was a very loving father and he could really get down to their level. They loved it because he'd do things like build sandcastles with them on the beach or play guerrilla with them in the garden.

And he had this real knack of playing with the children when he was there. And they appreciated any moments with him. And at quite an early age, probably once they were teenagers, they realised that he was a real genius. They'd hear him talk around the dining table at Chartwell and spout on about literature and politics. And they realised they were in the presence of genius. And did they find it easier to accommodate themselves like genius than perhaps than Randolph the son? Did they feel less pressure on themselves? I think that Diana and Mary felt less pressure on themselves. But Sarah was driven. She really needed to express herself. And this expectation which she placed on, really was quite harmful in later life. She wanted to be a great actress and she nearly did it.

She appeared in a Hollywood film with Fred Astaire and on Broadway and in the early days of television. But she never quite made it. And she minded that. The other two were quite happy with a fulfilling family life. So the childhood sounds quite happy. Winston not around that much, but playing with them when he was about? The childhood of Mary was very happy. The childhood of the younger ones, Diana and Sarah, was less happy because it was more nomadic. Clementine was away a lot often. She used to go on three-month holidays and leave the children with nannies. And in the first decade of Diana

and Sarah's lives, they were with staff who weren't very good. However, after Marigold died, I think the Churchills realised they needed to get their act together. And so Mary had a very happy, secure childhood because she had a very supportive nanny, Marriott White, and she had a very stable home at Chartwell. In the 1920s and 1930s, when Churchill's career looked like it was a busted flush, he hadn't met his potential and gone on to been the great leader that he was so convinced he would be. Did that spill into his family relations, you know, and his depressions, the black dogs he called? Did that affect his daughters? I think that it actually meant they had more time with

him than if he'd been Prime Minister at that stage. And certainly there's some lovely scenes of them doing things that chart well with him, like building walls, or Mary had this tremendous bond with him about animals. They had a complete menagerie of animals. And Winston was as keen on them as Mary was, and he'd do things like write a poem to the pug dog and to the cat. But it meant they had more time at home with him. But there were times when it was very depressing as well. For instance, in the run up to World War Two, he could see what was going to happen in Europe and he knew people weren't listening to him. And around the dining room table, it could become quite grim. He would talk about what might happen in a war. Crikey. And his descriptions, I mean,

I remember he told the cabinet that they could all take one German invader with them. So I'm sure his descriptions were quite graphic about what might happen to them all. Yes, he talked about gas attacks, and it would literally make people feel sick around the table. I think his niece Clarissa was particularly appalled by that. And sometimes he'd just sit there in silence, and the children would feel quite embarrassed and not know what to do to sort of alleviate this gloom. It's very difficult, isn't it? Having to accommodate yourself to kind of greatness or importance. I imagine around the dinner table, they're all just geared up to trying to get

through. No one goes, oh, Winston, sort yourself out for God's sakes. You know, it's all just shaping yourself to provide the support, the conversation, whatever that the great man needs. It must be exhausting. I think it was, and they reacted in different ways. From an early age, Sarah knew that she had to be entertaining at the table. And so sometimes you just sit there in silence feeling, I don't know what to say. And Winston would describe her as an oyster who wouldn't give up her secrets. Whereas Diana reacted in a very different way. And she would just chatter away, sort of saying nothing much. And in fact, it's said that she found it so stressful being around the dining room table that it pushed her into an unsuccessful first marriage. Mary just sort of took it all in her stride. She had a very sanguine temperament

and she was a very favoured daughter and she accommodated herself more easily perhaps than the others. Well that's interesting you mention marriage. I mean how did it go bringing boys home? Winston never thought anyone was really good enough but particularly Sarah and Sarah had a real rebellious streak so she would bring unsuitable men home. For instance, she fell very in love with a much older comedian, Vic Oliver, and Winston did not approve at all. And Sarah rebelled against him by eloping to America and marrying Vic Oliver against her parents' wishes. They accepted it once it had happened, but they were not happy about it. In contrast, Diana pleased her parents after an unsuccessful first marriage, which was to a friend of Churchill's son. She married Duncan Sands, and for a time, Winston thought that he could be one

of his political heirs, and they worked very, very closely together. However, Mary, as in all things, never put a foot wrong. And she brought Christopher Soames home to the family. And he became such a tremendous support to Winston, particularly during his final premiership. And they became close. And actually, Christopher Soames took over the role that Winston had once hoped that Randolph would play. Holmes took over the role that Winston had once hoped that Randolph would play. We listened to Dan Snow's history and we're talking about Winston Churchill's daughters. More after this. This is History's Heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas and the courage to stand alone, including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the First World War.

You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, Sonny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you. Join me, Alex von Tunzelman, for History's Heroes. Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcasts. Let's come to the war. How old were they and what role did they have during the war? Mary was 17 when the war began. Sarah was in her 20s and Diana was a young mother with two and finally three children. And all of them were very keen to play their part in the war and support their father. They did that in their own lives on going into the services. And Diana was the first to go in in the Wrens and helped in the welfare side of that. But she couldn't do as much because she had small children. Mary became a gunner girl in the ATS and had a very prestigious career. And Sarah went into the

WAFs and was a photographic interpreter at RAF Medmondham in Buckinghamshire. But they didn't just have their own careers, they also supported their parents tremendously. And it was a time when the Churchills had to keep very close as a family because there were so few people that they could trust. And so they'd go to checkers and be around the dinner table with top Americans and other leading generals. And they knew that they could never talk about what was discussed around the table. Perhaps even more importantly, as Winston suffered from health problems, the girls travelled with him. It was felt that after he had a suspected heart attack

at the White House in 1941, that he should have one of the family with him. But Clementine didn't always want to travel. So either Sarah or Mary went with him and they went to some of the most important conferences of the war, going with him to Tehran, Yalta and Potsdam and meeting the leading figures of that time, which was a tremendous experience for them. Did their active role there and their role in the war effort change Churchill's attitude towards women? Yes, I think it did. He was a Victorian who believed that women had separate spheres and that they could be supports to men and attractive adornments, but that they wouldn't have a political career or a very important career at all in their own right. I think it really changed his attitude and he began to believe that they could do things both in the home and in their own careers. And during the war, he wrote to Randolph about how heroic his daughters were being and that they were really challenging themselves.

And then I think that shows after the war, particularly in the 1945 general election. Sarah wrote to her father saying, you know, I can tell among my friends in the troops that they may well vote Labour and they want a more equal society. They're inspired by the Beveridge Report. And I think you really need to focus on housing. You need to show the same attention to that that you've shown to winning the war. And Winston was influenced by this and it went into the Conservative Party broadcast and he discussed it in Cabinet. And Clementine wrote to Sarah saying, you really are very shrewd politically. That's fascinating. How about after the war? Was the family hugely impacted by the catastrophic loss in the election of 1945? Yes, they were. They were all shocked by it.

They couldn't believe that people could be so ungrateful for their father. But they were also impressed by how he handled it. They couldn't believe that people could be so ungrateful for their father. But they were also impressed by how he handled it. He showed great magnanimity and he also showed a sense of humour. And Sarah said, in a way, she loved him most at that moment. And in the immediate aftermath, they all rallied round. Sarah took him on holiday and they painted together and relaxed and he rediscovered his hinterland and began to feel happy again. Mary gave up her role in the forces and supported Clementine as she sorted out Chartwell. But then after the war, they all had to find their own lives. In the war, it had been very clear what they needed to do. After the war, they had to find out their own path and that was in

some ways more difficult. And it didn't end well. There was problems with mental health and addiction. There certainly was. Unfortunately, Diana suffered from very severe mental health problems in the 1950s. Her marriage to Duncan Sands broke down and she ended up hospitalised and having electroconvulsive treatment and insulin treatment. She ended up hospitalised and having electroconvulsive treatment and insulin treatment. And she finally seemed to have found her sense of vocation working for the Samaritans and was seen to be very compassionate and helped many people. But then it all became too much for her. And tragically, she took her own life in 1963. Sarah had a great career in some ways after the war. She went to Hollywood, she appeared in a film with Fred Astaire, she was on Broadway, but she also had a series of tragedies in her private life, and that made her turn to drink. And there were some embarrassing

incidents where she'd be drunk and disorderly. She was arrested by the police in 1958 in Malibu, and she was being restrained by the police. And this made headlines across the world, which was really embarrassing for her parents and for her. And throughout the early 1960s, she had a very serious drink problem, which ended up seeing her remanded in custody for hospital reports in Holloway Prison. Wow. How much of that do you think is, well, we can't know, how much is that is the pressure of being a sort of national, international treasurer's daughter? I think there is a lot of that. There were perhaps genetic things and also a lot of things that

happened in her personal life. But I did come across reports by psychiatrists at a clinic she went to. And they discussed how hard it was for her having public life forced upon her that she wasn't in control of, and how she really wanted to please her parents always. And even when she went to see a psychiatrist, she couldn't really speak frankly, because she was afraid of exposing any family secrets so there was a tremendous pressure attached to her family name. When you were researching this book is there anything new to discover about Churchill and his family? Were you still coming across things for the first time? I think so. I think it was just seeing in

more depth exactly what their life was like and And of course, the wonderful thing was that the archives at Churchill College, Cambridge, are so complete. And I was able to see there thousands of letters between the sisters and their mother and their father, but also private diaries, things that had been written in the middle of the night by Sarah when she was really depressed. And also things like her psychiatrist's report. And those things, I think, flesh out a very different picture of Winston. I'd always known him as this great statesman, but I saw him now as a loving parent who suffered so much tragedy. He lost two of his daughters before him, and there can be no greater tragedy than that. Do you think he was aware of the complications it causes immediate family members, certainly his son and his daughters, of being that

international treasure? I've interviewed and met some very celebrated people. And you can tell the sensitive ones, they're worried about the effect it's having on their immediate family. I think Winston was perhaps too egocentric to really focus on other people's needs much because his wife Clementine also suffered because of the demands of the role of being either the wife or children of Winston. However, he was always very sympathetic when his daughters had problems and he didn't tell them off or get angry. He always was loving.

He would write to Sarah when she'd been arrested in America saying, don't worry, come home, it'll all be fine. He never was really angry with her. And perhaps he did, without openly acknowledging it, realise that there was a great cost to pay for being his daughter. How were they as parents, do you think? I mean, did they try and be ostentatiously different to their mother, to their father, with their own families? Sarah didn't have children, and that was quite an issue. She was nicknamed in the family the mule because she was obstinate and did not breed. And she knew that her parents would have wanted her to have children.

So she wrote to Winston saying, I just can't really do it. I love children, but I couldn't have a family of my own. saying, I just can't really do it. I love children, but I couldn't have a family of my own. Whereas I think Diana and Mary both tried to bring up their children in a slightly different way. They were certainly there for them more than their mother had been in their childhood. Diana had her three children and they were always coming first with her along with her husband. Mary also was like that. And it was interesting to hear from one of Mary's children that in some ways, Mary tried to recreate the best bits of her childhood, but she adapted it a bit to make it even better for her children. So they do the same

sort of things and have the same sort of seaside holidays and the horses and the animals and all that sort of thing. But she couldn't bear to be apart from her children as much. And she only really lived her own life and had a full career once her children had grown up. How important at the end of his life do you think Churchill rated the happiness and well-being of his family compared to his Nobel Prize for writing, his honours that he received for his political leadership. I mean, do you think he came to think later in life that family is essential to success? Or as you say, was he always so egotistical that he was happy to take all the great high offices

of state and look back on his scrapbooks and derive his happiness from there? He didn't actually derive that much happiness in those final years. And there's a very poignant scene at one birthday where he's got Diana and Sarah with him. And they're saying, Father, you must be so proud of all you've achieved. And he was very silent and implied he felt he'd achieved nothing at the end. And they said, but you've done so much. You've given people their freedom by what you did in the war. You've written great books that have inspired people, and you've had a family. You must be proud of that." And he was just very, very quiet. He was quite depressed in his final years about the way things went after the war in politics, and also about what happened in his family. So there was humility, perhaps, at the end, which wasn't there as much in the early part of his life. And I think although he didn't always openly acknowledge it, he did value family. He said at his 70th birthday, just before the end of the war, how much they'd done to support him, and that he couldn't have done as well without them.

Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, talking about that. It's so fascinating. The book is called? The Churchill Girls. Thank you very much. Good luck with it. Thank you very much for having me on. Hope you enjoyed the podcast. Just before you go, bit of a favour to ask. I totally understand if you don't want to become a subscriber or pay me any cash money,

makes sense. But if you could just do me a favour, it's for free. Go to iTunes or wherever you get your podcast. If you give it a five-star rating and give it an absolutely glowing review, purge yourself,

give it a glowing review, I'd really appreciate that. It's tough weather, the law of the jungle out there and I need all the fire support I can get. So that will boost it up the charts. It's so tiresome, but if you could do it, and I need all the fire support I can get. So that will boost it up the charts. It's so tiresome. But if you could do it, I'd be very, very grateful.

Thank you. This is History's Heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas, and the courage to stand alone. Including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the First World War. You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, Sonny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you. Join me, Alex von Tunzelman, for History's Heroes. Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcasts.