Dan Snow's History Hit - Churchill's Surprising Career in Scotland

Episode Date: January 16, 2023

Winston Churchill is possibly the most famous politician in British history. Throughout his career, he would hold numerous positions in government, including serving as the MP for 5 different constituencies. Perhaps the most unusual of these was his time representing the Scottish industrial city of Dundee - he would provoke the ire of a fascinating cast of characters, including the respected Dundonian and prohibitionist, Edwin Scrymgeour. But how did Churchill become MP for the Scottish city of Dundee? And why did he lose the 1922 by-election to Scrymgeour? Dan is joined by Andrew Liddle, historian and author of Cheers, Mr Churchill! Winston in Scotland, to learn about Churchill’s surprising career in Dundee and how he was beaten by a prohibitionist candidate.‌Produced by Mariana Des Forges and edited by Dougal Patmore.If you'd like to learn more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad-free podcasts and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe to History Hit today!Download the History Hit app from the Google Play store.Download the History Hit app from the Apple Store.

Hi everyone, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hits. Winston Churchill, you may have heard of him, one of Britain's greatest prime ministers and statesmen. But in this episode of this excellent podcast, we're going to look at a very different aspect of Churchill's political career. Him as a constituency MP. During the course of his parliamentary career, he represented five different constituencies. Two in the Manchester area, two in Southern England, and one in Dundee. And the story of how he came to be an MP in Dundee, and more importantly, how he stopped being an MP in Dundee, is one of the classics of Churchill's career, involving a real cast of characters. You're going to love it. In this episode, I'm going to talk to historian

Andrew Liddle. He's just written a book called Cheers, Mr. Churchill, about Churchill in Scotland. And you're going to hear the story of how and why Winston Churchill, the sign of one of the greatest aristocratic families in Britain, the grandson of the Duke of Marlborough, born in Blenheim Palace in one of the most genteel and aristocratic shires of southern England, just outside Oxford, how he ends up becoming an MP for the Scottish industrial city of Dundee. We should say, by the way, Winston Churchill was no stranger to losing elections. He lost plenty in his time. His first electoral experience was in 1899 in Oldham. He lost that. He won it the following year, narrowly becoming a very young MP at the age of 25. But in 1904, he crossed

the aisle. He joined the Liberal Party. Don't forget, Winston Churchill, that great liberal politician, joined the Liberal Party and won a Liberal seat in Manchester North West in 1906. He was then promoted to the Cabinet in 1908, becoming one of the youngest Cabinet ministers for decades. But in those days, as you'll hear, you had to go back to your constituency and seek re-election when you move from the back benches onto the front bench. And he lost. He lost North West Manchester by just a couple of hundred votes. The liberal machinery kicked in and a new seat was found for him in Dundee. He went to Dundee where he fought no fewer than six elections. And all the the time he had his great nemesis. Winston Churchill's nemesis, not Adolf Hitler, no.

Not Clement Attlee, no. But a man from Dundee called Edwin Nettie Scrimminger, leader of the Scottish Prohibition Party. of the Scottish Prohibition Party. He believed in the total prohibition of the sale of alcohol. And he was running against Winston Churchill, one of the most remarkable politicians who has ever walked these shores. He was nothing if not determined and optimistic. And you know what? He won in the end.

This is the story of how Neddy Scrimmager beat Winston Churchill. Enjoy. Andrew, thank you very the shuttle has cleared the tower. Andrew, thank you very much for coming on the podcast. It's an absolute pleasure to be here, Dan. Thanks so much for having me. We don't necessarily associate Winston Churchill with industrial Scotland. Was it more normal in that period of the 20th century for the kind of big beasts to rotate round seats and local party members perfectly happy, even if they didn't have a particular local connection? It certainly was actually, yeah. It's one of the interesting things, I think, that we have with politics today in Britain. Churchill wasn't unusual in representing the

Scottish seat at all. In fact, just over the Tay and East Fife, Asquith, his political patron at this time, was MP, despite not having connections with that area. So it was quite common. Of course, Churchill didn't end up in Dundee of his own choice, as it were. I mean, he was the MP in Manchester Northwest, but it certainly wasn't unusual for people to move around the country and change constituencies. When he was parachuted in, is the modern phrase we'd use probably, When he was parachuted in, is the modern phrase we'd use probably, parachuted in to Dundee by the Liberal Party, was it at all controversial at the time? Or were the local party and local electors happy to have him? Yes, there was controversy within the local party. That's absolutely right. Churchill's great ally in Dundee was the chair of the Liberal Association,

a guy called George Ritchie. And he worked tirelessly to secure the seat for Dundee. But there was a lot of local opposition in the party. At the previous general election in 1906, they'd had a candidate who had previously been mayor of Kensington, who was absolutely trounced at that election. And that obviously made the local party slightly reticent about having another outsider, I suppose, come and represent them. But George Ritchie, I think, recognised Churchill's ability, outsider, I suppose, come and represent them. But George Ritchie, I think, recognised Churchill's ability, recognised that he was a rising star, and almost in the Machiavellian way, actually kind of engineered the selection for Churchill and made sure that he was the only candidate the Dundee Liberal Association could choose. What was Churchill's relationship when he became MP?

Are we talking April 1908? That's right, yeah. And actually, he recognised, I think, that he was someone who perhaps didn't have a close association with the city. He was very clear about that in his election address. He was also very clear that they wouldn't be getting a conventional constituency MP when they voted for him. He was very much going to be focused on national issues. But he did have connections with the city.

He knew Dundee well. He'd actually been to speak in Dundee well. He'd actually been to speak in Dundee after the Boer War to talk about his escape there. So this wasn't the first time that he'd been to Dundee. And of course, his wife Clementine, who he'd meet shortly after his election, had very strong local ties there as well. How was he as an MP? Did he just focus on national politics? Or did he take an interest in the people of Dundee and being a constituency MP? It's something that a lot of biographers have looked at, obviously, is the fact that Churchill didn't go to Dundee very much. He would go once or twice a year, perhaps a few more times if there was an election.

But generally speaking, he was quite absent. But that didn't mean that he didn't take an interest in constituency issues. absent. But that didn't mean that he didn't take an interest in constituency issues. One of the things I found in my research was that he was a great advocate for the city on a macro level. So he advocated for the city's jute industry, that was its fabric industry, the big employer in the city. So he was a keen advocate for that even at cabinet level. But he also took a kind of more micro interest in some of the issues in the city. For instance, in 1912, he made a great effort to secure some new artillery pieces for the city's boys brigade. I wouldn't want to give the impression that he was a fantastic constituency MP. Obviously, apart from anything

else, the term is a bit anachronistic, sort of pre-welfare state. And there are some quite funny pieces in the archives. For instance, there's an effusive three-page invitation from the Dundee Horticultural Society for Churchill to open their annual meeting, and it just has a big no scribbled across the front of it. But he did take an interest in the constituency, and perhaps not as some people in his constituency would have liked, but he certainly wasn't the sort of absentee, at least in terms of issues that some people would think. There are famous stories, but are they urban myths? I don't know about him finding local hospitality wasn't quite to his princely tastes.

That is right. Yeah, he wrote to Clementine complaining about finding a maggot in his kipper. And he said, what trials and tribulations one has to suffer for one's country. One of the other things I found when looking in the archives was all of Churchill's hotel receipts from his days in Dundee. They reveal that he spent about as much on food, wine, champagne, cigars, even hot baths as he did on the hotels themselves. So he clearly tried to enjoy himself in Dundee, even if perhaps the standards were slightly lower than he was used to. I have been to Dundee recently and I had a wonderful hospitality on board the Antarctic survey vessel Discovery up there. So I don't know what he was complaining about. It's a wonderful

place. Did the fact he was a Scottish MP actually have any impact on his politics nationally? You mentioned he was supportive of things in Dundee. What about his view on Scotland's place within the union, for example? Churchill was a passionate supporter of Scotland's place within the union, but that didn't mean that he wasn't a supporter of Scotland's right to have a strong voice within that union. Indeed, at this time, he was a passionate supporter of devolution. In 1911, he took a plan to the cabinet that would have seen the creation of a Scottish parliament, along with parliaments in Wales and Ireland, and also would have divided England into a series of regions and given them regional assemblies. And all of these bodies would have divided England into a series of regions and given them regional assemblies.

And all of these bodies would have had power under Churchill's plan over areas like infrastructure, education, housing. So, you know, a really significant plan for devolution that Churchill advocated for, and indeed a plan that went further than the current devolution settlement that we have today. So he was an advocate for Scotland's place within the UK, but that extended to making sure that Scotland had a's place within the UK, but that extended to making sure that Scotland has a strong voice within the UK as well. And indeed, in 1913, in a speech in Dundee, Churchill actually predicted that there would be a federal United Kingdom along a similar line to the United States. So quite radical in terms of his interest in the constitutional

structure of the UK. So Churchill is elected in 1908. How many times does he stand for that seat? It's a turbulent time politically as well. So there's two elections in 1910, presumably stands both of those elections. That's right. Yeah. So Churchill actually stood six times in Dundee and won five times. He was first elected by election in 1908, won twice in the two general elections in 1910, and then another by-election in 1917. And indeed, in 1918, at the general election, he wins one of the biggest majorities in the country. Of course, in 1922, 100 years ago this year, he was defeated, but he did have a number of quite significant electoral successes in the city. Andrew, why did he stand in the by-election in 1917? Is that when he gave it all up after Glipoli and went to the trenches? That's right, yeah. So Churchill fought two ministerial by-elections in Dundee. This was a

rule that basically when you move from the back benches into the cabinet, you had to fight a by-election in your constituency. So Churchill first came into the cabinet in 1908 as president of the Board of Trade, which led to the Manchester North West by-election, which he very narrowly lost. But that kind of threw his political career a bit into jeopardy. And he ended up in Dundee. A similar thing happened in 1915 after Gallipoli and Churchill's resignation. Lloyd George brought him back into the cabinet, obviously, in 1917 as Minister of Munitions, but he had to fight another ministerial by-election in Dundee. And I think that election in Dundee itself actually is particularly significant because it helped cast off the aspersion that Churchill was a political liability

after the Dardanelles. You're listening to Dan Snow's History. This is the unlikely story of Winston Churchill and the battle for his Scottish constituency. More coming up. aeroplanes space suits condoms coffee plastic surgery warships over on the patented podcast by history hit we bring you the fascinating stories of history's most impactful inventions and the people who claim these ideas as their own we uncover exceptional stories behind everyday objects we managed to put two men on the moon before we put wheels on suitcases. Unpack invention myths. So the prince's widow immediately becomes certain. Thomas Edison stole her husband's invention and her husband disappeared around the same time.

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who were rarely the best of friends, murder, rebellions, and crusades. Find out who we really were by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. There was trouble, well, across Britain, but in Scotland in 1919 after the First World War, the world had been fractured in so many ways. There's the myth that Churchill sent tanks into, I think, Glasgow. Is that true? And is that important given his Scottish MP status? Well, this is absolutely an enduring myth that

people still talk about very much in Scotland today, and indeed is so widespread that it's actually been included as a correct answer on Scottish school syllabuses and marking keys. It's actually not the case at all. If you look at the War Cabinet minutes from 1919, Churchill was among the most reticent among the calmest members of the War Cabinet when they were discussing how to deal with the industrial strike that was taking place in Glasgow at that time. There were troops sent to Glasgow. They did include some tanks, although the tanks were never deployed and stayed in the depot. But that deployment came at the request of the local government in Glasgow. And indeed, Churchill was very clear that this should only be done as a

last resort. But nevertheless, this myth pervades that Churchill ordered tanks in to attack striking workers, and therefore is held up as this villain in Glasgow and indeed in Scotland. workers, therefore is held up as this villain in Glasgow and indeed in Scotland. Let's come on to the remarkable story of one of Britain and Scotland's great political, I don't know, survivors, committed characters. Tell me about Scrimmager. Well, he is this absolutely extraordinary figure, the like of which hasn't been seen before or since. So he was a committed teetotaler who came from a long line of temperance figures in Dundee. But he took it one stage further and embraced full prohibition. So his political platform was that he wanted a complete ban on the sale of alcohol across the UK.

And it could only be used for medical purposes. And even in that case, it would still be labelled poison. And he was a very religious figure, but he did also embrace left-wing politics. But his key platform was prohibition, and he made himself the leader of this nascent body, the Scottish Prohibition Party. He was very active in local politics in Dundee. He was elected to the city council, but obviously, he had his eyes on bigger things. He fought Churchill at every election that Churchill contested. So he fought him six times, lost to him five times. Vecuria, one of the local papers, even dubbed Scrimgeour the most defeated candidate in

Britain. But yet he kept going. And indeed, in 1922, on the sixth attempt, was actually able to defeat Churchill and to become, to date, the only prohibitionist MP ever elected in the UK. Was that just a slow, gradual doorstep campaign where he just got around, met everyone, pressed a lot of flesh, or was it the national picture? Why was he able to beat Churchill? And his votes just slowly crept up each election, didn't they? That's absolutely right. Yeah. And I think Scrimgeour was a very strong figure in the

community. He was a great kind of character. People knew him. And you're absolutely right. He did press the flesh and he really worked the constituency in a way that Churchill, because of his commitments as a cabinet minister, just couldn't. And he did steadily build a rapport with voters. I think he also benefited from the fact that particularly after the First World War, there was a rise in left-wing politics. There was a lot of disenchantment among Dundee's working class community. And I think Scrimgeour, because of his embrace of kind of left-wing politics, was really able to capitalize that and start to eat away at Churchill's working class base that had previously sustained him in the city. Yes, so I guess you're seeing what you see

in other constituents across the country, that liberal, working class vote, quite quickly transitioning towards the Labour Party. That's right, yes. And indeed, you know, in 1922, Bundy was a dual constituency, so he elected two MPs, and Scrimgeour stood on that joint ticket with E.D. Morrell, who was the Labour candidate. But they very much kind of, at least at this time, worked closely together. And, you know, I think that Labour voters would have been quite comfortable backing the Scrimgeour's Scottish Prohibition Party. And Churchill ended up grudgingly quite respectful of Scrimgeour, did he? Did they meet? Did they hang out in the House of Commons afterwards? Scrimgeour was someone who was a great character.

And like all of us us had a lot of um flaws as well as good things about him but one of the things i think definitely endeared him to churchill was this indefatigable quality his determination to keep going despite being on a number of occasions absolutely humiliated electorally scrimgeour's ability to wear that and to keep going um really endeared him to Churchill, and indeed Churchill reflecting a decade after his defeat was very complimentary about Scrimgeour for that reason. They didn't see eye to eye politically, obviously, but one of the things I found researching the book was that they did develop a bit of a relationship, perhaps not quite

a friendship, but certainly a begrudging respect. And there's this extraordinary moment in 1919 at the Paris Peace Conference, where Scrimgeour has decided as a journalist, he was the editor of the Prohibitionist, the newspaper of the Scottish Prohibition Party. And he decided as a correspondent to go to Paris to cover the Peace Conference. Of course, this didn't go down very well. He didn't have the proper accreditation. The officials weren't that enthusiastic about making lots of special arrangements for this slightly niche publication. But Scrimgeour decides to lean on Churchill, who was there. And in his hour of need, he goes to visit Churchill at the Hotel Majestic in Paris, Churchill's very fancy suite, and calls upon him and asks for Churchill's help. And Churchill's extremely gracious and offers him support with

his accreditation, offers him the use of his car and his driver in order that Scrimmager can better complete his assignment. So I think there was a respect there. There was a relationship there that perhaps people wouldn't first assume when they consider both their personalities and their politics. How did Scrimmager's campaign for prohibition, How did Scrimmage's campaign for prohibition, banning alcohol in the UK go? Well, it didn't go very well. As MP, he did put forward two private members bills calling for total prohibition. They were roundly defeated, although they did receive some support from a small section of the Labour Party. But generally, they were considered too extreme and too impractical, really, to implement. I think the second private members Bill Scrimgeour

introduced was in the late 1920s. And by then, I think, you know, people could begin to see that prohibition in America was not having the effect that was desired. And therefore, there was even less support for Scrimgeour's position than there might have been initially. Did Winston Churchill ever go back to Dundee? Winston Churchill didn't go back to Dundee. He left on the 17th of November on the sleeper train and never returned to the city. And I think this is one of the things that's really contributed to the view that exists that Churchill really resented the city for voting him out in 1922. But I actually think that when you look at what Churchill said about Dundee, even

though he didn't visit again, he remained complimentary about the city. He certainly never spoke ill of the city, as is suggested by some. There's no evidence for that. And I think he did retain a fondness. I mean, of course, like any politician, when you lose an election, you're probably not going to be too happy about it. You'd be a slightly eccentric politician if you were. But I don't think he resented Dundee for that. Is Churchill part of the culture wars today in Scotland with its raging debates about its place within the UK? What's Churchill's legacy like within Scotland? Churchill's legacy, you know, he's an emblematic figure of Britishness, you know, he was voted the greatest Briton by BBC viewers in 2002. And I think that for that reason,

he's become something of a political football for both pro and anti-independence supporters in Scotland today. I think that one of the reasons why you see myths and fake history emerging is because people want to make a contemporary argument about politics. They want to use the fact that Dundee voted Churchill out as a metaphor for perhaps Scotland rejecting Britishness. And ditto, you know, from the other side, I think that the fact that Churchill won five elections in Dundee is often used by anti-independence supporters to suggest that perhaps Scotland is comfortable with its British identity. So he's very much

a live figure today, I think, in the debate and is very much still relevant to contemporary political discussions in Scotland. Andrew, that was brilliant debate and is very much still relevant to contemporary political discussions in Scotland. Andrew, that was brilliant. Thank you very much for coming on and talking about Churchill and I think the forgotten chapter of Churchill's life. What is your book called? It's called Cheers, Mr. Churchill, Winston in Scotland. Brilliant. Thank you very much for coming on. Thanks, Dan. It's been a pleasure.