Dan Snow's History Hit - Coronavirus is NOT the plague

Episode Date: March 5, 2020

It came from Asia via the Middle East and Italy. But, says 17th Century historian, Rebecca Rideal, the parallels with the Black Death, The Plague, are not helpful.It was great to catch up with Rebecca again on the podcast. She tells me what effect plague had on British people and society when it struck throughout the 17th Century. Her ultimate conclusion seems to be: be very very grateful that youre not living three hundred years ago.Catch Rebecca and other wonderful historians on my new history channel, History Hit. There are also ad free versions of our entire podcast archive and hundreds of hours of history documentaries, interviews and films. Please signup to www.HistoryHit.TV Use code 'pod6' at checkout for six weeks free.

Douglas Adams, the genius behind The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, was a master satirist who cloaked a sharp political edge beneath his absurdist wit. Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth explores the ideas of the man who foresaw the dangers of the digital age and our failing politics with astounding clarity. Hear the recordings that inspired a generation of futurists, entrepreneurs and politicians. Get Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth now at pushkin.fm slash audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold. Hello everyone, welcome to Dan Snow's History. Rebecca O'Deal, fantastic historian, broadcaster, author, owner of HistFest, London's best history festival, got in touch.

She said she's alarmed by some of the weird, ill-informed historical parallels being drawn between corona outbreak and the plague, the Black Death of the medieval and early modern period. So she wants to come on the podcast, set everyone straight. So I said, definitely. So here she is. I set everyone straight. So I said, definitely. So here she is. If you are worried about corona, if you are worried about any of the issues raised in this episode, please, please, please follow

your local public health authority. And if you can, make sure that when you're amplifying messages, when you're sharing, retweeting, emailing among friends, please, please, please make sure that they're from official sources. This is not a time for the internet,

for Twitter to be at its worst. You can go to our TV channel and watch Rebecca Radiel talking about the 17th century. You can also watch other wonderful historians like Victoria Taylor, aviation historian, talking about the strategic bombing campaign in the Second World War.

All of that exists on our Netflix for History. It's called History Hit TV. If you use the code POD6, P-O-D-6, you get six weeks to try it out for free so uh after listening to this podcast please head over there and do just that historyhit.tv in the meantime everybody here is rebecca redeal talking plague rebecca redeal thank you very much for coming back on the podcast. It's an absolute pleasure.

The word is you're getting frustrated. You're an expert in 17th century pandemic outbreaks and you believe there's a pandemic of bad historical parallels going on. Yeah, a little bit frustrated. I just think it's always risky and sometimes a little bit dangerous to make comparisons between what's happening in the present and what happened in the past, particularly when things are entirely different. Well, let's get into it. Let's talk about these medieval pandemics. What caused these famous outbreaks? And early modern plague, or otherwise known as the Black Death, was caused by, well, we believe, I mean, there's debate, but it was caused by the bacterium Yersinia pestis, which would infiltrate a body, whether that be a human have a very, well, more often than not, have a very slow and painful death, whereby they would suffer, I suppose, flu-like symptoms to start with,

but then they'd become delirious. They developed the infamous buboes that would grow on lymphatic glands, so under the armpits, in the neck and the groin as well, and then they would slowly die. Mortality rate with medieval and early modern plague was around 60 to 70 percent. It's hard to say for definite, but we think it was around that number. So yes, that was the very wonderful black death of the early modern and medieval period a very painful disease which claimed the lives estimates put the medieval occurrence at around half of europe and losing their life well half of europeans losing their life to plague um and then during the 17th century which is the area that i study more specifically we can look at figures for isolated incidents. So in 1665,

for example, the Plague of London took around 100,000 lives of the 450,000 inhabitants of the city at that time. It is interesting, curious that it's followed that same route from Asia, Iran, Northern Italy, to the UK. It's true, actually, that and there was an awareness of that at the time as well. And Dr. Nathaniel Hodges, who was a physician in London during the Great Plague of 1665, did note that it had arrived to arrived in England, he believed, through bales of cotton that were transported from the Netherlands to England. And then before that, he claimed that plague had made its way to Northern Europe via Turkey and beyond. But of course, there's always risks and really important risks

to be aware of here, that when you label a geographic area as being the source point of a disease, whether that's plague, whether that's Spanishanish influenza whether that's any other number of diseases and more often than not it also encourages and it goes hand in hand really sadly with xenophobia and sometimes racism as well so that's something that has been true throughout history when it comes to disease and it's a very difficult fact, I suppose, to navigate. Why don't people get the plague today, or at least very, very few of us do? Well, we don't get plague today because there's a cure for plague.

It was towards the end of the 19th century that scientists finally understood what plague was, its biological makeup, and how it could be, then later, how it could be prevented and also cured. So obviously, we know about the arrival of antibiotics in the 20th century. If you were to contract plague today, I mean, there are hot spots around the world where it does still happen, but you would, statistically, you would be extremely unlucky, because it is very, very rare. And if you were to get it, you would more than likely survive because of the cures that we have. Here's hoping, dude. Listen, you're such an expert in the 17th century.

Give us a sense of what it was like in English society when those pandemics broke out. Was there any form of messaging of of of public health care yeah there were there was um public health so when the plague um whenever there was a plague occurrence in the early modern period um plague orders would be issued and these pretty much stayed the same um for well for over a century um almost they these plague orders would stipulate how citizens should behave. So if somebody was found to have plague or suspected of having it, that they would be shut up in their houses or quarantined for a period of 40 days. The outside of the house would be marked with a red cross.

There was also provisions to have guards outside the houses and they would be tasked with passing food into the home to sustain the inhabitants. Obviously when plague got to extreme levels during outbreaks like the Great Plague of 1665 and also in 1603, these provisions broke down slightly. Well, I say slightly, they broke down, we don't know how much. So obviously there were lots of people that not only had plague, but they would find themselves without the key provisions that they needed. So food and sustenance and that kind of thing. Other than that, there were also quite cruel things by today's measures. Plague was associated with public disorder. And in 1603, you find lots of plays with a Y emerging, kind of looking, exploring this theme.

So Ben Johnson wrote a play called The Alchemist, which is about a home that was left, you know, deserted during plague time and taken over by a so-called alchemist and his comrades. And they just get up to all kinds of trouble in London at that time. So there was this association, but because of that, anyone found to have plague sores wandering the streets would be whipped. That was one of the orders that were put out there, or executed in some cases as well. They were the orders too. So there was a very severe public health response I suppose to to plague. Did any of these special measures work? I mean lots of the medical like medicinal things did not work

whatsoever and some of them with 21st century eyes are just absolutely ridiculous I mean I was looking well revisiting some of my research recently, just given the coronavirus. And one of the ones that always, always makes me smile. I mean, it's kind of desperate in a way. But official plague guidance in 1603 advised and well advised ingesting toast sprinkled with vinegar and made with rose leaves and cinnamon. And those that were too poor to buy vinegar or cinnamon were told to simply eat toast with butter on if they could. And one of the quotes here is,

for butter is not only a preservative against the plague, but against all manner of poisons. So remember that next time you're buying your clover. What effect did plague have on society at the time? I mean, did it make it less cohesive? Did it loosen the bonds that bind us? It did. And, I mean, there is this, as I mentioned before,

this idea of a breakdown in public order. And it did do that. And it also did severe damage in some cases to whoever was tasked with leading the country at the time. So I've mentioned the outbreak in 1603. This happened just after the death of Elizabeth I. And it was believed to be important. It was believed to be to have religious resonance. So one commentator at the time saw her death and I I'm quoting here, like a thunderclap was able to kill thousands. So it was linked, disease and pandemics and outbreaks were linked

to religion and the idea of sin. So it was a punitive religious event. Whenever there was an outbreak of plague, people must have done something something wrong so it often led to a lot of you know thinking about about the wider society and the ills of society and what what people had been doing wrong but equally um it also caused extreme poverty so in times of war you get examples of um sailors that would have ordinarily been with the navy being discharged and actually one commentator described them as living more like dogs on the street than humans because they were just so poor. You know, there was a breakdown in industry in the country as well. So it did have many, many effects, cultural effects as well.

Land a Viking longship on island shores scramble over the dunes of ancient egypt and avoid the poisoner's cup in renaissance florence each week on echoes of history we uncover the epic stories that inspire assassin's creed we're stepping into feudal japan in our special series chasing shadows where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. hit. There are new episodes every week.

Douglas Adams, the genius behind The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, was a master satirist who cloaked a sharp political edge beneath his absurdist wit. Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth explores the ideas of the man who foresaw the dangers of the digital age and our failing politics with astounding clarity. Hear the recordings that inspired a generation of futurists, entrepreneurs and politicians. Get Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth now at pushkin.fm slash audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold. wherever audiobooks are sold. So let's come to today. What are the key differences between now and these outbreaks of disease in the 17th century? Obviously, there are similarities. We're very, in the Western world and in Britain, we're very sheltered in many ways from disease. I mean, the world in general, we're sheltered from these mass outbreaks of disease and these mass pandemics because we live in a world of 21st century medicine.

So whenever we have, you know, whenever there is an occurrence like this, scientists are straight away trying to create vaccines and, you know, if they can, a cure as well to these diseases. So right now we know that a vaccine is being developed and I think it's on the brink of being tested. So, you know, that's great. And that's why I would much rather live in the 21st century than any other period before. But it does get a bit frustrating because it's terrible. I mean, obviously, anybody that's affected by disease, it's a deeply sad situation. But I think at the same time for the wider public, we have to keep in mind that this isn't the Black Death. You know, there isn't a 70% mortality rate. It's not,

you know, we're not locked into centuries of bad science. We have 21st century science. So the outlook isn't as stark as it would have been several hundred years ago. But on the flip side of that, one thing that is interesting is how quickly it can travel in 2020 because of our global transport networks as well. And it's interesting objectively. our global transport networks as well. And it's interesting, objectively, it's interesting looking at the patterns and where it's been, coronavirus I mean, where it has been travelling to

and the cities that it's been affecting. What's the role of a historian at times like this? Is history important? Oh my gosh, what a question. Is history important? I don't know, is it important? Yes, it is important. It's important, I guess, because the plague is this, it's one of several events in British history, the Great Plague, in our collective cultural history. So it's understandable that whenever there's an outbreak or, you know, anything similar in nature to draw upon these previous examples. But I think the role of a historian is to, in these instances, is to perhaps just to say,

as I'm doing now, that it's not the Black Death. I mean, it is, you know, a serious situation, I mean, it is, you know, a serious situation, but it's not, you know, the outlook is not abysmal. Are there any useful lessons, anything that you've learned that you think is relevant? Useful lessons from plague prevention. used during medieval times and early modern times and has been used you know since time immemorial really is is the idea of quarantine and um you know looking for measures to slow down the progress of of a disease and i guess right now um i mean i'm not a scientist so if you know any scientists are listening then please feel free to tell me i'm wrong on Twitter or anywhere else um but I guess from my point of view this idea of slowing down the progress of a disease gives scientists time to do the work that they need to do and then hopefully more you know more people can be vaccinated before it progresses further, if that makes sense. What about culturally

as a society? I was talking to someone the other day about the fact that Jews were often turned on when there were outbreaks of disease. Do we have to be mindful of that kind of scapegoat, that kind of othering? Oh yes, absolutely. So one of the most unfortunate things about historic disease and disease in the contemporary world as well, whether that's the Black Death, whether that's leprosy, whether that's cholera, whether that's the Spanish influenza, is the way that it goes hand in hand, almost always with an othering of a section of society. And it's one of the most unfortunate and sad things to happen during disease because it encourages or makes space for xenophobia and often sometimes racism as well. And we need to be very mindful of that because we've seen it happen in the past. We've seen it happen, you know, more recently.

And it's just something to be mindful of, because we do know, you know, disease travels, but we have to be careful in how we view that disease. What about the long term, the strategic effects of the disease? Did England change after the Black Death? It's hard. It's a really hard thing to measure. And it's also a really hard thing to comment on because change can happen in small and huge ways. So it's been quite widely commentated upon how the Black Death had a big cultural impact. And we do see lots of visual imagery relating to plague from that period. do see lots of visual imagery relating to plague from that period. Also the period that I look at specifically the 17th century, pamphlets have these images of skeletons, you know, dancing upon cities, just to represent the idea that death is always close at hand. But then you also in the

early 17th century had a burst of plays and and um pamphlets pamphlets i should say by the likes of ben johnson and also um thomas decker so it does have it does have a cultural effect it also provides space after the incident i suppose to have a real you know look at how we deal with disease and whether our measures, contemporary measures are fit for purpose. And I imagine that after the outbreak of coronavirus, and you know, however, that progresses over the next few months, there will be a period of, you know, looking at looking at the measures that were taken and whether they were the correct measures and, you know, what they actually achieved. But one thing that just going back to this, this burst of cultural commentary on plague during the 17th century, one of my most favourite quotes is from Thomas Decker, who wrote lots of things, lots of plague pamphlets at the time.

And he was a real advocate of not, he wanted to take it seriously, but he did think that you also needed to retain your humanity and what it means to be human. So he really argued that humour is an antidote to despair. And one of his quotes is that if you read, you may happily laugh. Tis my desire you should, because mirth is both physical and wholesome against the plague so laughter one of our best weapons well apparently but i do think you i do think you know the very nature of being human is retaining your humanity and disease so often dehumanizes people in ways that we can't really imagine unless we're experiencing it so um i think yeah i think maybe that is one of the things that we should be should be doing a bit more of but charles second's government didn't

have a sort of sudden massive burst of public improvements after bouts of the plague no although there was they did clean the streets and they did they did work to remove debris or and by debris i mean um mess but also there were lots of dead cats and um dogs in the streets of london and during the time and they'd obviously well not obviously but i assume um the you know the mass death of these animals had was linked in some way to the spread of plague among amongst humans. So cleaning of the streets and making places hygienic as we would understand it, though their idea, I mean, their mentality behind doing this was rested upon the theory of the four humours and also the idea that bad air would encourage disease.

So they were more concerned with getting rid of bad smells. And obviously to do that, you have to get rid of rotten things like you know creatures and rubbish and all of that and business so there were there were changes and there were an awareness there was an awareness of what needed to be done to reduce the spread but it was locked into flawed medicine as ever i i'm fascinated to know what our descendants will be saying about our attempts to to wrestle pandemics yeah lovely now remind us about the books one of yours has even got plague in the title hasn't it it has got playing the title so my book is um 1666 plague war and hell fire um and it is a little bit more cheerful than the title suggests it certainly is

it certainly is oh hist fest uh 2020 it will be coming up at the british library between well from the 3rd to the 5th of april this year and we've got a whole host of amazing speakers there and performances workshops and all manner of things and tickets are on sale now if you if you like that kind of thing thank you very much for coming the podcast well thank you for having me one child one teacher one teacher, one book, and one pen can change the world.

He tells us what is possible not just in the pages of history books, but in our own lives as well. I have faith in you. Hope you enjoyed the podcast everyone just massive favour to ask if you could go to iTunes

wherever you get your podcasts give it a rating five stars obviously and then leave a glowing review that'd be great my mum is getting overwhelmed by the amount of different email accounts she's set up to leave good reviews for me

so you're gonna have to do some of the heavy lifting thank you Douglas Adams the genius behind The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, was a master satirist who cloaked a sharp political edge beneath his absurdist wit.

Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth explores the ideas of the man who foresaw the dangers of the digital age and our failing politics with astounding clarity. Hear the recordings that inspired a generation of futurists, entrepreneurs and politicians. Get Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth now at pushkin.fm slash audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold. you