Dan Snow's History Hit - Diary of an MP's Wife

Episode Date: December 7, 2020

Sasha Swire joined me on the podcast to talk about her diary, written during the Cameron years. Her husband was an MP and junior minister at the time.Subscribe to History Hit and you'll get access to hundreds of history documentaries, as well as every single episode of this podcast from the beginning (400 extra episodes). We're running live podcasts on Zoom, we've got weekly quizzes where you can win prizes, and exclusive subscriber only articles. It's the ultimate history package. Just go to historyhit.tv to subscribe. Use code 'pod1' at checkout for your first month free and the following month for just £/€/$1.

Hi everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History. I'm currently sitting in a dugout, the largest set of reconstructed trenches in the UK. We're filming our big Christmas drama documentary for History here. It's going to be absolutely brilliant but it's incredibly cold. It is about minus one at the moment and I'm huddled in a little dugout. The puddles are topped with ice. In fact, it's almost perfect conditions for this drama documentary. Very, very similar to the conditions over a hundred years ago on the Western Front. This podcast has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Western Front. This podcast features Sasha Swire.

She's just written a memoir called Diary of an MP. Her husband was a junior minister in David Cameron's government, but they were part of David Cameron's close personal circle of friends. The diary's been something of a sensation here in the UK because it's given all sorts of tidbits and insights, gossip into the lives of the most senior politicians in Britain during those years. But I was more interested in it because for me, it strikes me as the most effective account of Britain during those years. But I was more interested in it because, for me, it strikes me as the most effective account of what it is actually like to be at the pinnacle of government.

Her observations, I'm sure, will be of enormous use to future historians. She has an eye for detail. And it was a chance to ask her about what it feels like to be powerful. If you want to go to historyhit.tv, if you want to watch the hundreds of documentaries we've got on there, or watch the huge, mega, our biggest, most ambitious documentary we've ever produced, which will be out in two weeks' time, go to historyhit.tv, use the code POD1, P-O-D-1,

you get a month for free, and then your second month for just one pound, euro or dollar. It's a sweet, sweet deal. Head over there and get involved. In the meantime, everyone, here's Sasha Swyne. Sasha, thank you very much for coming on the podcast. Thank you for having me. You're not a politician. What was your relationship to how everything worked? Well, I was a housewife. No, I was my husband's political

researcher for about 20 years, mostly his media stuff and his writing and some newspaper columns for him. You're not allowed to do that as a wife anymore. It was sort of banned. So I mean, I had a background in local journalism. So I pretty much knew the structures of local government and all that stuff before he went into politics, because he was quite busy. He was working at Sotheby's at the time. So I helped him with all that sort of stuff. He was Hugo Swire. So he was a member of parliament, but also became a minister. First of all, he was Minister of State in Northern Ireland. And then he worked in the Foreign Office as Minister of State for about four years, I think it was, which I didn't see him very much because he was flying around the world the whole time.

In fact, I didn't see him at all, really, during politics very much. How close were you to decision makers? Because some politicians can hold important sounding jobs, but they're not really in the middle of it. How close were you to the high officers of state? Ever since I can remember, I've been around principal decision makers, because politicians were always coming in and out of our house in Cornwall. My father, Sir John Knott, was Defence Secretary during the Falklands War and he worked under Thatcher. So, you know, I can remember the Howes, Nick Ridley, Jim Pryor, Willie Whitelaw, Hailsham, even Enoch Powell came. And then Lady Thatcher was a

patron of my mother's charities. So I've always been around these sort of people. I don't recollect any conversations. And my father never discussed politics with his children. And then after I got married, I got to know Cameron and Osborne quite well. They were the same intake as my husband. So a bond formed pretty early on. And that usually happens when you're all on the circuit together, scrambling for seats. You kind of start out as rivals. And when you get placed, you become friends, if you can ever become friends in politics. And, you know, I knew Amber Rudd from when we were young, kicking around London. I got to know Kate Fall, who became Deputy Chief of Staff in Number 10.

But, you know, I have to stress here, I was not party to the decision-making process. I understood it because I was my husband's researcher, but I was not part of it in any way. You're such a good diarist. You've given the best sense of what life was like. Most diaries are sort of written by men, you know, trying to promote a legacy. So it's a sort of different thing, someone like me writing a diary. I think I brought colour to it and I think I humanised them because they're always trying to control their public images, you know, with standing by their kitchen sink or whatever they do. And I think just to be in the room and to see how they relax

and what matters to them. From what you saw, do you think decisions were quite casual? Are they up to individual sort of matter in their outlook? And can quite sweeping changes occur because of just what someone, David Cameron or someone else, just sort of thinks on the day? Well, I mean, that's a really big question, I have to say, because decisions in politics are made everywhere. You know, they're made in departments, they're made with ministers, the Commons, the House of Lords. It's a struggle of forces when it comes to making decisions.

I don't think we have much of a cabinet decision-making process in this country anymore, unlike my father's day. And, you know, even then, Thatcher was quite good at using cabinet as her rubber stamp. But I think, you know, Blair introduced so for government. Cameron carried it on. They sort of both relied heavily on unelected people in number 10. You know, Alastair Campbell, Steve Hilton. Boris did the same with

Cummings and May did it with Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill. The problem with this is it slightly undermines the democratic process, you know, because people aren't accountable or unaccountable to the electorate. But I think we are moving towards a more presidential system, which is sort of regrettable. But, you know, ministers are more difficult to control now from the centre of politics, from number 10, because of, you know, social media and there isn't a secret garden in politics anymore. So it's, you know, you say something and it's out in social media in two seconds. What effect does power have on people? I just think power is very seductive, all right?

There is no denying it. People swarm towards it. And so those receiving the attention clearly enjoy it. I do write about the trappings of power quite a lot. So, you know, the houses, the security, it's all quite intoxicating. But it's very important to understand that these are all transient tokens. You just learn to enjoy it while it lasts. And ultimately, these are the upsides of the job. And believe me, there are many, many, many more downsides. And I also think it's where a spouse has a role to play but of course you know ambition is very

intense in Westminster and some MPs are indeed motivated by power and determined to get to the top and you pretty much know which ones those are I mean I love watching those characters because it's almost Shakespearean and you know I just love it. I like recording it. I don't mean to be mean, you know, but someone like Gove in my diaries, you know, I'm a great, I really like Michael, you know, he's a very funny character in private. But, you know, when you're writing a diary, it's like threading a necklace. So you go to your desk and you put down, oh God, you know, Gove did this yesterday. And then you go three months later and Gove did that today. And then suddenly you're pulling together this narrative, this necklace, and you have this character portrait. So that's what's interesting with diaries. And you can see someone's

ambition. You know, this is over a 10 year period. So you very much see that through the diary. But I think the great majority of politicians, you know, genuinely derive their satisfaction from just being an MP, being at the centre of events and connecting with their community through their surgeries. I think a lot of politicians are just blocked at every way they turn. Theresa May, very unpowerful, completely incompetent, weak. Cameron was pretty strong at the centre. Then you've also got, you know, a government's majority comes into play and whether the executive can make the MPs follow the chosen course. You know, they usually do that if it doesn't threaten their status locally. But conflicts can arise. So, for example, now you look at the holders of the Red Wall seats,

you know, Boris has a huge majority, but these people hold his destiny, you know, and they formed into a lobby group and then lobby groups are stronger than individuals. What motivates the people that you knew well and wrote so brilliantly about in your diary? I just think you don't get very far in UK politics if you don't believe in something. You're found out pretty quickly. And also your interests, you know, are what define you as a politician. I get a lot of criticism on the diary of that it displays a sense of entitlement. And I think that's really unfair. It really isn't anything to do with privilege. No one wins at the ballot box unless they deserve to. When you're finishing this off and publishing it,

who's the audience, do you think? I'd like to say that there's an instinct in me to rescue my political experiences from oblivion, but it really is not the case. My diaries were only really a writing exercise and they were literally written for my own amusement. I just simply didn't set out to write political history. I usually wrote it in the morning when Hugo went to work,

but I mean, I just went to my desk and put down the stuff that interested me the day before. I have a sense of humour and my husband has a sense of humour, so it's quite light-hearted. My problem is always that I'd be so worried about upsetting people. These people are friends, is it nerve-wracking? When you see them again, they're like, hello, thank you very much, telling everyone that. I mean, it must be a bit awkward. I haven't seen anyone for a year, practically. I'm sort of sitting on the top of a hill in Devon. But I think for a diary to be good, it does involve some betrayal, you know, because it's mostly honest and, you know, it's written in the heat of the moment. But it's also, you know, it's also highly subjective.

So I just think politics is just not an occupation that supports loyalty because it's so fluid and it tests individuals' sort of emotions and personal morality so I just don't think loyalty in politics is a simple virtue like it might be in other walks of life. Thank you so much your diary is cold for people that want to go and read it immediately. Diary of an MP's wife. Thank you very much Sasha Swyfe for coming on the podcast. Pleasure. It's been a pleasure. Hi, everyone. Thanks for reaching the end of this podcast. Most of you are probably asleep, so I'm talking to your snoring forms. But anyone who's awake, it would be great if you could do me a quick favour. Head over to wherever you get your podcasts and rate it five stars.

And then leave a nice glowing review. It makes a huge difference for some reason to how these podcasts do. Madness, I know, but them's the rules. Then we go further up the charts, more people listen to us and everything will be awesome. So thank you so much. Now sleep well.