Dan Snow's History Hit - Duke of Windsor: The Nazi King?

Episode Date: September 25, 2021

When Edward VIII abdicated the throne in December 1936 his desire to marry the American divorcee Wallis Simpson was cited as the main cause but did his sympathy with Nazi Germany also play its part? Today's guest on the podcast author Andrew Lownie believes so and he goes as far as to say that Edward was actively intriguing with the Nazis to engineer his return as king should Britain be defeated. The Duke and Duchess of Windsor had made a well-publicized trip to Nazi Germany in 1937 and even met with Hitler. During the war, Edward was appointed as Governor of the Bahamas in order to keep him as far away as possible from the European theatre and to minimize the risk of him becoming a centre for Nazi intrigue. Andrew has scoured archives across the world and brings new evidence as to how deep the Duke of Windsor's ties with the Third Reich went.

Hi everyone, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. It is a long and glorious tradition within the royal family of the English and British that you hate your siblings and your parents, and vice versa, the parents hate the kids. Don't blame the players though folks, don't blame the players, blame the game. That's primogeniture for you. And whether you're talking about those Georgians who were infamous for it, whether you're talking about Victoria and Albert disapproving of their son Edward VII, William the Conqueror's kids, creepers, creepers.

It runs like a golden thread through this island's history, and it's something to be grateful for because it's great drama. And few episodes have provided greater drama than the abdication of Edward VIII and his subsequent, I mean, sort of troubling dalliances, shall we say, with continental despotism. On this podcast we've got Andrew Lowney. He's a best-selling author and on this podcast he goes all the way. He says he's found new material that suggests that Edward VIII was actually behaving in a traitorous way. He was committing treason with Nazi Germany, leaving the door open to a possible accommodation

which would see him reinstalled on the throne of Britain and Britain becoming a kind of puppet or close ally of Nazi Germany. It's powerful stuff, folks. Inflammatory stuff. So I've gone on the podcast to talk about it. Edward VIII, who obviously abdicated from the throne after just months on the throne as King Emperor, because he wanted to marry his girlfriend, his fiancee, Wallis Simpson, an American divorcee. He was made by the British establishment to choose

between marrying Wallis and the British throne. But was there something else going on? Was he just a complete liability who everyone was thrilled to get rid of? Andrew Lowney will tell us. If you wish to listen to other podcasts, if you wish to listen to them without the ads, because, you know, everyone loves the ads. I get that. I get that. Then you can do so at historyhit.tv. You get a historyhit.tv, 30 days free if you sign up now, and you take out a small subscription. You're supporting everything we do here at History Hit, and we are very grateful for it. We're about to go out on a massive tall ship next week off Cornwall, braving your tumnal gales, sailing through the crashing spume in order to make a great program for History Hit.tv and we do that thanks to your subscriptions. It's brilliant. So go and subscribe now, well after you've listened

to this podcast with Andrew Lowney. Enjoy. Andrew, thank you very much for coming on the pod. Delighted to be here. Thank you for asking me. As you point out in this book, over the years, the argument about the Duke of Windsor has gone on and on, but let's get straight to it. You've been pretty bold here. You think that the former king, Edward VIII, now Duke of Windsor, was, I don't know, what's travelled in Germany. And I think he was determined that there would not be a Second World War after the problems of the First World War. And I argue that one of the reasons that government officials were so keen that he shouldn't become king, they used the excuse of Wallace Simpson to actually get him to stand down,

was because of his pro-German views. And he'd been targeted by the Germans before the war by various relations like Saxe-Coburg, Hesse, and he tried to interfere in politics, much to the government's distress. And he continued to intrigue. So even after he abdicated, he of course went and visited Hitler in Germany. He in in fact, wrote to Hitler and was in touch with him. And then, during the war, when he escaped from France into Spain, the Germans thought they had their opportunity to, in a sense, install him as a British pétain. And he was very open to their overtures. He didn't report them to the British, and it's very clear from what he was saying, it's reported by diplomats. This is all from primary source material in archives, which has been there for years,

but historians just didn't sort of put the dots together. He was actively intriguing with them. He was going into the German embassy. He was very open to their overtures that he should perhaps come back. And I argue that the peace overtures in the summer of 1940 were partly influenced by the fact that the Germans thought that he might well come back, that Britain would fall and he would be restored and he would be able to give Wallace the throne that he, in a sense, had been denied. So this new evidence is

so interesting. Is it predominantly the summer of 40? So after France falls, he's left France for Portugal, is that right at that point? Yes, he's in Portugal waiting to be flown back to Britain. But this is going on for some time. So, for example, in January 1940, he comes back to Britain in an attempt to set up a peace party and has meetings with various people orchestrated by Beaverbrook. And this is recorded in various people's diaries. People like Neville Chamberlain knew about this. I think Churchill certainly knew what was going on.

The fact is that the Duke of Windsor had been under surveillance since before the abdication by MI5. And then when he went to the Bahamas later, after this episode in Spain and Portugal, he was under surveillance by the FBI. But even his Scotland Yard detectives were reporting back to the Home Office and the Metropolitan Commissioner about his movements and who he was seeing. And he moved with some very dubious characters, including a man called Charles Beddow, who was the man who lent him his castle for his wedding in June 1937, who was a Nazi agent. And so what was the single most damning thing that you found that you think has been overlooked?

Well, I think the most damning thing is that when he left Lisbon and went to the Bahamas, Churchill threatened to court-martial him. He sent him off to the Bahamas as governor to basically get him out of the way. Windsor actually communicated with a German agent, a man called Santo, in code saying that, you know, if the call comes, I'm ready to come back from the Bahamas. And this is recorded in both the diaries of an MI5 officer and also in Alan Lassell, who was the King's private secretary's diaries. And they're saying it's true. The argument had always been that he didn't engage with them. He was the innocent victim of a plot against him. But it's very clear that he knew exactly what was going on and was very involved in it. He, for example, got the Germans to keep

an eye on his house in Paris. His maid was allowed safe passage to go and collect clothes and linen. And we just know from all the communications that were going on that it was very clear that he was involved with them. And then, of course, after the war, there were these captured German documents, which were meant to have been destroyed. and someone basically used them as his passage to come off cross to Britain and they were not destroyed. This is known as the famous Marburg file and I have a huge section in the book dealing with the entreaties from Churchill to Eisenhower to have these files destroyed, certainly not made available and there was a big fight in which American academics insisted that for the sake of history, these shouldn't be destroyed. But there was a big disinformation

campaign in the 1950s when they were published to discredit them and to put up a smoke screen. But it's very clear from the correspondence in, for example, the cabinet papers, Churchill's own private correspondence, the correspondence of historians, that this was something that really worried them and they tried to suppress. How much encouragement did the Duke need to come back from Portugal when he was there? And why not just leave him rotting in Portugal for the rest of the war? Because the Germans might have kidnapped him? Is that one of the reasons you suggest?

Yes, there was certainly concern that he might be kidnapped. And he was a loose cannon. It was best to get him back to Britain and keep an eye on him. And it was only because his brother, the Duke of Kent, was in Portugal at the same time and they couldn't meet that there was a slight delay. Otherwise, he would have been flown out much earlier than he was. So he was allowed to hang around there with these German agents. It was a huge center for the German intelligence agencies. for the German intelligence agencies. And he was also playing a game, trying to leverage his position while he was there. He was insisting that Wallace should be recognised as Her Royal Highness, that there would be a meeting with the King and Queen, that he wouldn't have to pay tax if he came back. So he was delaying it. He insisted, for example, he should have his valet and piper, even though they'd been called up for service. He was a very tricky customer, and Churchill really got exasperated with him. And in fact, I argue that one of the reasons that even though they'd been called up for service. He was a very tricky customer, and Churchill

really got exasperated with him. And in fact, I argue that one of the reasons that he was cold-shouldered by the Royal Family and Churchill from this period onwards was not because of the abdication, but because of his treachery. Do you think that was part of a wider political worldview that he held, or was it just personal bitterness, the opportunity to get back his throne, as it were? Or do you think he was attracted by Hitler, fascism? I think it's a mixture of both. He felt he'd let Wallace down. He'd lost the throne. He showered her with jewels. He was constantly trying to, in a sense, win her favour. She was pretty pro-German. She'd been friendly with Ribbentrop before the war and had been open herself to these blandishments. One of the German spies that was sent was put in

an apartment next to her in her flat in London. But I think also he generally thought that Hitler should concentrate his energies on the Soviet Union, that the British Empire would be lost in this war, and that if he could save Britain from going to war, then he would have done his spit. And he'd been very open to these peace overtures, which really had been coming to him from 1936 onwards. Well, let's talk about him more as a prince, as a man. He had a, well, perhaps it runs in the family, he had a huge ability for, he felt very sorry for himself the whole time, by what I read. Yes, I mean, he'd had a difficult ability for, he felt very sorry for himself the whole time by what I read. Yes.

I mean, he'd had a difficult childhood. I mean, both his parents were very strict and bullied him. He had had all this adulation as a young prince on these world tours. He was a very charming, charismatic figure in many ways, but he had never really grown up. Physically, he hadn't fully grown because I think of mumps as a child, but emotionally he was stunted. He talked baby talk to his girlfriends. He wanted them to be dominant. They'd all been dominant. And of course, Wallace filled this role perfectly. She bossed him around,

and he liked that. He had a very strong sense of self-entitlement, and he had been very spoilt as a child. Even his private secretaries, before he came to the throne, rather wished that he had been very spoilt as a child. Even his private secretaries, before he came to the throne, rather wished that he'd been killed at one of his steeplechasing exploits. So he was seen as a pretty bad egg by the insiders, even though the public loved him. He was seen as politically very naive, and he was a very weak character, very open to not just Wallace, but these approaches from pro-German figures around him. It's that strange thing that you get with the Romanovs and all these great royal families of Europe at this time. You get this sense in which it is very protective about their right to rule, and yet also feel that it's a terrible burden that they have to bear and that they've been very unlucky in a way.

Yes, exactly. I think that's one of the extraordinary paradoxes. In some ways, he was relieved to not have to become king. And yet there he was intriguing to come back. I think he was a very vain man and he was open. I mean, he loved his clothes. I think he liked the attention of the Germans and they played him very well. They, of course, offered him large sums of money. He was rather greedy.

Again, one of the tensions of the abdication was over the fact he double-crossed his brother about actually how much money he had he'd been saving money from the civil list and had plenty of money they didn't really need to pay him off and he had actually tried to barter his ownership of Balmoral and Sandringham by threatening to rent it out to American businessmen so he really had no strong sense of public duty he was in it for himself and throughout his life he sponged off people he was involved in some pretty dubious black currency dealings, not just in the Bahamas, but after the war. In fact, the big scandal was hushed up. His secretary, who would be basically involved in doing it, a man called Victor Wadoloff, was sacked and paid off before he could go to the papers about it. before he could go to the papers about it. And there's certainly some suspicions that he covered up the murder of Harry Oakes

in the Bahamas when he was there because Harry Oakes was involved in some financial operations with him. You're listening to Dan Snow's History. We're talking about Edward VIII. Traitor or foolish? Or both? More after this. We're waiting here for you to join us. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and let everyone know that you've gone medieval with History Hit. scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt, and avoid the Poisoner's Cup in Renaissance Florence.

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There are new episodes every week. without getting a sort of conspiracy theory about it i mean he was unpopular before was there concerns before his relationship with the married wallace simpson within the british elite within the royal family about his fitness for the throne because even in recent memory there's been some pretty dodgy candidate i mean his grandfather, Edward VII, was regarded as a complete liability by his own parents and many people. Was there anything different about Edward VIII? Well, I don't think he was as intelligent as Edward VII. I don't think he had the same sense of duty. I agree, Edward VII grew into the role, but there were concerns before he inherited. I mean, his father had said that he will ruin himself within a year, and that's exactly what happened.

He reigned in effect for nine months, or less than a year, rather, 11 months. So yeah, I mean, if you look at the diaries of all the court officials that have been published, politicians, there were worries about his indiscretion that he passed on, state secrets. He left things lying around for his guests. He wanted a life of pleasure. I mean, this is, I suppose, the great trope, the division between public duty and private pleasure. And he, I'm afraid, wanted his private pleasure. I think if he'd married someone else, then probably the situation would be different. But Wallace Simpson was ambitious, and he became putty in her hands. What were Wallace's ambitions politically?

Well, I think she wanted to be something in the world. She'd had this very impoverished childhood, genteel poverty. She loved mixing with the great and the good. She loved attention. She loved wealth. And I think the fact that she was approached by these people and flattered again enhanced her own sense of her own importance and I think she felt that her husband had been let down by his family that they could have had a more ganatic marriage that he probably would have been a great modernizer so there was this great bitterness that they'd been denied in some ways he'd been denied his birthright and bitterness about the fact she'd been denied her position as a royal highness. And I think it was that sort of anger, as well as a sense that they could perhaps make a difference that motivated them. But previous to the abdication, how did she think she influenced his worldview, his politics?

Well, she mixed very heavily with, for example, people from the German embassy. A hostess called Emerald Cunard was always inviting them to parties. They were going to the German embassy a lot. I mean, she was very pro-German. I think there was also this sense that she had, too, of trying to avert the war. So I think they were trying to do it for the best of reasons to start with. And then they got drawn in further and further. And it was a mixture of their own personal advancement and a belief that they could change the course of the war. And a great jealousy, particularly of the future queen mother, who they called Cookie and the Witch of Glamis. So there was terrific tension between the two wives of the brothers. The brothers had always done well, but there was a sense neither of them could be trusted. And there are again reports from,

again in the National Archives, from senior civil servants like Horace Wilson saying this woman is very dangerous, she has huge ambitions, she needs to be watched, she's too sympathetic to the Germans, and we really need to, in fact they tried through various parties to separate the two, but the Duke of Windsor threatened to kill himself if he wasn't allowed to marry Wallace. And so she sort of was emotionally blackmailed into continuing the relationship. What does it tell us about the monarchy? I mean, it's a very democratic world. I mean, Edward was a threat to the institution of monarchy itself in Britain was he because people worried that the public would just wake up and go hang on this is mad this dysfunctional family

full of these kind of weird people ruling over us well I think he was popular with the public even during the application that was one of the worries he had a lot of supporters particularly supporters of Oswald Mosley and there was a worry that Bertie who clearly wasn't as accomplished a public performer might be overshadowed by his younger brother. And so that was one of the reasons he was kept in exile. But I think the officials felt that he wasn't up to the job. They were worried that he was trying to modernise too quickly and was perhaps going to let in too much transparency. But I think others were just concerned that he wasn't discreet, he mixed with people he shouldn't be mixing with, and that as a statesman, in effect, he was a liability. He was constantly trying to intervene in politics, particularly during the

Anglo-Naval discussions in 1935. In March 1936, his cousin, the Duke of Saxe-Coburg, was sent across to smooth things down after the Rhineland crisis. So he was seen as an apologist for the Germans, and that was of increasing concern as people prepared for war. Did Bertie, his brother, George VI, have a more modern view of what monarchy should be? Is that one of the disagreements is that his older brother Edward, as you say, wants to get involved in stuff. Was George VI happier to perform that modern constitutional figurehead role? Or did he have different politics, ones which intersected better with the British government's agenda? Well, I mean, the irony is that George VI was sympathetic to appeasement. I mean, he came out onto the balcony with Chamberlain after he came back from Munich and involved himself in politics. But very quickly, I think

he realised that Hitler couldn't be trusted. I don't think it was so much the politics, because in fact, many of you read the Chips Chanons volume two now, it's very clear how strong the interest in Parliament, how many Chamberlain supporters there were even through 1940 and plotting against Churchill. But I think there was a sense that he would do the job and not complain and do his duties and he would follow in the tradition of George V, which is exactly what he did do. And he had a stable marriage and clearly a wife who's prepared to do these things. So he was seen as a safe pair of hands. I don't think George wanted the job, but he stepped up to the mark. And thank goodness he did. I think we were saved by Wallace Simpson. Having written this, does this make you think that in a kind of an age of modern media of interrogation, of less forelock tugging, the monarchy is essentially unstable

because eventually someone like Edward will come back round and discredit the whole thing. I mean, someone like Edward will come back round and discredit the whole thing. I mean, it feels that Edward represented a threat to monarchy itself in a way that previous 18th to 19th century, George IV, for example, extraordinary, eccentric, pretty useless figure. The monarchy could survive with George IV, but it couldn't potentially have survived in Edward VIII. Possibly not. I think, clearly, we were in the era of the mass media, the fact that there were these demonstrations after the abdication that he had this support. There was a worry that he was, in some sense,

the king of the water, and it was more difficult. But I think that's always a problem with monarchy. We've been lucky that most of the monarchs have been pretty good. But I think most of the time people could be controlled. And I think the problem with Windsor, particularly after he got involved with Wallace, was that he really wasn't prepared to be controlled and that he was a loose cannon and something had to be done. And he, in effect, manoeuvred himself into the abdication. Baldwin acted very cleverly to basically force him to give up the throne. Well, the House of Windsor's got another errant

member at the moment. Do you think Windsor, late after the war, to what extent did he dream of undermining his brother and the institution itself? Or did he always remain essentially committed to monarchy in Britain? Well, after the war, he was desperate to get a job and he kept lobbying both Churchill and Natalie and his brother. But the problem was, what job could you give him, an ex-king? I mean, it's one of the problems. He wasn't invited to the coronation of the Queen because there was no precedent for that. And he wanted to be some sort of ambassador in Latin America or in the States. But he had these very dubious friends. And all the advice that was being given to the royal family was this man really just needs to

go off and keep away from Britain and do charitable work or whatever. But he cannot be involved in public life because he's a liability. You know what? Spare members of royal families, it's a big problem because you've got to have a few of them around in case of death. But the Ottomans had it right. It's the old silken thread or whatever it is. You just need to get rid of the spares. It was difficult. I mean, I sympathise with the royal family. What do you do with these people who perhaps, you know, you give them an inch and they'll take a mile? I think the royal family started off by being quite conciliatory. I've just been looking at letters in the royal archives and Bertie actually is very good to his brother initially and is sympathetic to his wish to come back and they're

going to try and do it gently and reintroduce him. This is before the war. But every time, Windsor goes off and does something that basically makes them put up their hands in horror and say, we can't have this happen. He gives indiscreet interviews, all the parallels that we see now. He has squabbles about security, about his finances. He goes public on his parenting and says awful things about his sister-in-law. So it's very difficult because every time they try and do something conciliatory to sort of keep him on side, he just pushes even further. Interesting stuff. Thank you very much, Andrew, for coming on the podcast. It's great to everyone, eventually. What is your book called?

It's called Traitor King, The Scandalous Exile of the Duke and Duchess of Windsor. Traitor King. You're not pulling your punches there. No, I've sort of put my mouth where it is. I mean, people have hinted at this in the past, but no one really has joined up everything and, I I think gone through the archives. There's a lot of stuff in the States. I think one of the interesting things too is when you compare files, for example, the files in the Bahamas with the ones in the National Archives here, which are identical, except they're not. The ones here have been heavily weeded and the ones in the Bahamas actually reveal a lot of this information. Well, thank you very much for doing all that archival research. It's exciting stuff. Andrew, thank you very much for coming on the podcast. Thank you for asking me. I feel we have the history on our shoulders.

All this tradition of ours, our school history, our songs, this part of the history of our country, all were gone and finished. Thank you for making it to the end of this episode of Dan Snow's History. I really appreciate listening to this podcast. I love doing these podcasts. It's a highlight of my career. It's the best thing I've ever done. And your support, your listening is obviously crucial for that project. If you did feel like doing me a favor, if you go to wherever you get your podcasts and give it a review, give it a rating, obviously a good one, ideally, then that would be fantastic. And feel free to share it. We obviously obviously depend on listeners depend on more and more people finding out about it

depend on good reviews to keep the listeners coming in really appreciate it thank you