Dan Snow's History Hit - Dunkirk Veterans

Episode Date: May 29, 2020

Dan meets some of the surviving Dunkirk veterans on the famous Little Ships which helped to rescue them from the beaches. The Little Ships of Dunkirk were 700 private boats that sailed from Ramsgate i...n England to Dunkirk in France between 26 May and 4 June 1940 as part of Operation Dynamo, helping to rescue more than 338,000 British and French soldiers who were trapped on the beaches at Dunkirk during the Second World War.Subscribe to History Hit and you'll get access to hundreds of history documentaries, as well as every single episode of this podcast from the beginning (400 extra episodes). We're running live podcasts on Zoom, we've got weekly quizzes where you can win prizes, and exclusive subscriber only articles. It's the ultimate history package. Just go to historyhit.tv to subscribe. Use code 'pod1' at checkout for your first month free and the following month for just £/€/$1.

Transcript
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Starting point is 00:00:00 Hi everyone, welcome to Dunstown's History. This week, 80 years ago, it was all happening. The Dunkirk evacuation was in full swing. The so-called miracle of Dunkirk, when British naval vessels and small ships from all across southern and eastern England gathered to lift an entrapped British and French army off the north French coast around the port of Dunkirk. That was all this week. We've been running podcasts about it. We've had Joshua Levine talking about Dunkirk. He was the historical advisor to the recent Christopher Nolan film. We've had Guy Beaumont talking about a group of Indian Muslim soldiers who found themselves caught up in the evacuation. And today we're going to reprise an old episode from a couple
Starting point is 00:00:43 of years ago on this podcast when I accepted the invitation of the wonderful Ian Gilbert, who is in charge of the Little Ships Association. He's one of the people keeping the memory of Dunkirk alive and keeping the ships that took part in that evacuation, keeping them afloat and with good owners and in good condition. I accepted an invitation. I went down to the River Thames at Windsor and we went for a little trip on some of the little ships. And I met some veterans as well.
Starting point is 00:01:10 I met Edward Oates, who you're going to hear from, William Matthews, Stanley Chappell, Arthur Taylor. Sadly, William and Arthur are now deceased. It was only a couple of years ago that I was lucky enough to meet them and hear their stories. In this episode, you'll hear from all of those people. You'll hear memories of what it was like on the beach and what it was like coming back in the little ships 80 years ago.
Starting point is 00:01:28 Sadly, every five years, all the little ships are still able to go back to Dunkirk. And I've made that journey twice with them now. We're meant to do it again this year, but it's been rescheduled for next year. History Hit will be there. We'll be filming. We'll be podcasting. We'll be live streaming. We'll be on drones.
Starting point is 00:01:43 We'll be doing the whole thing. So look forward to doing that. If you like listening to these back episodes of the podcast they're only available on history hit tv it's like netflix for history there's hundreds documentaries but there's also lots of back episodes of the podcast exclusively available there we really appreciate your support it's what keeps us all going you guys are subscribing to history hit and you're making it possible for us to go on making all this content and we're getting better and more ambitious all the time. If you use the code POD1, P-O-D-1, you get a month for free and then you get one month for just one pound, euro or dollar. We've got a new film up about Dunkirk.
Starting point is 00:02:15 We've got a film about the fall of France coming. We've got stuff about the Titanic coming and about global pandemics. We're in full flow, even though we're operating under lockdown conditions. But thank you to everyone for your support. Enjoy this episode about the little ships and the men they rescued. I'm so lucky to be sat here now. I think it's fantastic to see this lovely, smiling, Berkshire countryside with the Thames so placid and the Cerulean sky.
Starting point is 00:02:55 I'm so, so lucky. Did you think you'd be seeing this ever again when you were on the beaches of Dunkirk back in 1940? this ever again when you were on the beaches at Dunkirk back in 1940? There are many occasions in the First World War in the Second World War when I didn't
Starting point is 00:03:14 think I might live the next second let alone 10 years or 20 years or 30 years. I thought I was highly likely 10 years or 20 years or 30 years, I thought I was highly likely not to live very long. I've seen the bombs coming down like pebbles out of the sky from stookers diving on us. And the next second, I thought,
Starting point is 00:03:44 this one's coming, and then it would veer off and my mouth would be full of full of tingling sensation by the enzymes that were floating around my body and I really thought I wasn't going to live very long and that has been replicated on many occasions in that war so I'm so so lucky so lucky when so many of my friends didn't make it. How did you come to be in Dunkirk? Did you have to walk back there? My battery, El Neri battery,
Starting point is 00:04:35 was supporting the 3rd Division of Brigadier Montgomery, who later led the first battle of the Second World War for us to win. And we retreated. And I remember looking up into the sky and seeing the whole German Air Force, the Luftwaffe, thousands and thousands of planes droning on. And they were so lucky not to pay us any attention. They were going off to bomb Dunkirk and the ports, the French ports. And so we retreated, yes.
Starting point is 00:05:23 the French ports, and so we retreated, yes. And we, to cut a long story short, very, very short, we finished up on a hilltop called Monde Char, which was 50 or 60 miles away from east of Dunkirk, and we had one gun left. I wasn't a gunner in those days. I was a gunnery officer's assistant. But I watched our last gun firing over open sites
Starting point is 00:06:00 at the Germans who were down below about a thousand yards away, I should say. And then the order came that we were to destroy our guns and make our way to Dunkirk, where the Navy would pick us up. make our way to Dunkirk, where the Navy would pick us up. So our last gun was destroyed by putting a shell up the breach and one down the muzzle and then detonating it and glue the gun up. And then we come under very heavy fire. And I remember getting up onto the main road and seeing a truck come by.
Starting point is 00:06:52 And Trevor Leff, a friend of mine, said, jump. And I jumped onto it. And that was the last road out before being sealed off by the German army and we made our way until some measurements decided to pay us attention and they came straffing the road and the road was blocked up with refugees and all kinds and sorts of descriptions. We just dived into the ditches. And when they'd gone, we were left walking. But then a section of French cavalry came by
Starting point is 00:07:46 and they were leading quite a lot of horses. And being an ex-Royal Horse Theory man, I signalled, could I ride one of the horses? And they said yes. So I jumped on a horse and my friend, Bert Reid, jumped on a horse as well and rode along with the cavalry for about 20 miles, I suppose.
Starting point is 00:08:16 And then they decided to switch off and go south and we wanted to go continue going west and northwest so we said thanks very much and handed back the reins and we were left walking but then I noticed there was a motorbike in a courtyard and I looked into there was petrol in the tank so I tickled the carburettor and started up and it worked perfectly so
Starting point is 00:08:55 I said jump on the pillion and then we rode on for quite some time on this motorbike but then we came across a crossroads coming under heavy
Starting point is 00:09:11 enemy fire but it was a bit intermittent but I didn't like the look of crossing that crossroads because I'd read I'd read a book where people had to do that sort of thing
Starting point is 00:09:31 and it didn't end very nicely. So at any rate, I looked in the car and it was nearly empty so I said to Bert, we'll have to walk on from now. And so we did. We went across the open fields and I had a map which was a printout of the Daily Mirror and we
Starting point is 00:09:51 did a bit of orienteering with this and eventually we came to Dunkirk which was in the evening you didn't need a map to get to Dunkirk because the columns of smoke were going sky high.
Starting point is 00:10:13 And it was just a question of following that. And by the time we got into Dunkirk, all the bombing had stopped because it was night time and we made our way down onto the beach and there we saw hundreds of bodies laying out with blankets over them so I really thought surely they aren't all dead and then suddenly one of the blankets was pulled back
Starting point is 00:10:55 and I've always said what's the time mate it's the members of the guards brigade and they were having a good old doze so we walked on and eventually came to the dunes the next day it was absolutely we tried to there were people queuing into queues to be taken off but we were very unlucky we couldn't get out couldn't couldn't be taken off and it became more hazardous by the hour because the debris was so dense boats who had propellers
Starting point is 00:11:47 didn't come in or the propellers would get enmeshed in the rubbish that was littering the surface of the sea so I said I said to I said to my friend I said
Starting point is 00:12:02 I'll tell you what we're going to do. We're going to build a raft to get to to ferry us out beyond this hundred or two hundred yards of rubbish. And then we get picked up. So he said, OK. So we set to work and we built a raft and nobody bothered to say, what are you doing or anything? And the problem was we didn't have nails or a hammer, so most of it we had to tie, tie it together, tie them together
Starting point is 00:12:39 with ropes that we'd found lying around. So we built this raft and then we found it was so heavy we couldn't push it for enough money. And it was about three or four yards off the water. So I looked around and I saw under the sea wall was a Bren gun carrier. So it was about 250 yards away. So I went over to it, jumped in, pressed the key, and it bursted to life right away, no problem.
Starting point is 00:13:22 So I drove it back around, positioned it in front of the raft. We tied it on, and I said, I said, when I go out, give me the yell when it's floating, and I'll cut the engine. So I drove the brain gun carrier into the water until I couldn't drive it any further and the water it went on for a long time even though it was underwater which was amazing really but when it finally stopped and I looked around the raft was floating beautifully, so we cut it free, and we put our clothes onto the raft,
Starting point is 00:14:11 and then we pushed it out through the debris and paddled it out, oh, I should say 300 or 400 yards, until we were clear of all the rubbish. so we were clear of all the rubbish. But by that time, the wind had been getting up, and a swell began to break, and the raft being built out of spars with rope, they all became loose, and gradually they floated away, and we were left swimming in the water.
Starting point is 00:14:55 And I swam around, and the place was covered with oil from sunken ships and from their tanks. And then the next thing I knew, there was a big motorboat had pulled in and they were pulling me into the boat they pulled me into the boat and as soon as I was into the boat they shot off out to a large mother boat that had been anchored about a kilometre off,
Starting point is 00:15:27 out of range of the Messerschmitts and Stukas that were bombing at the time. And I walked up the slanting bridge, the walkway onto the ship, and somebody gave me an overcoat, and that was how I left Dunkirk. What was it like getting home? Brilliant. It was marvellous. I had a great, I hadn't had any food for some time because
Starting point is 00:16:13 the food was a bit scarce to come by on and so I sort of sat down and they brought me a lovely mug of navy cocoa. And that was one of the best drinks I've ever had in my life. It was gorgeous. I really liked nectar. And then the next thing I knew was somebody saying, pull on this rope. I was pulling the anchors up and pulling the boats on because they were fearing of being sunk any moment
Starting point is 00:16:59 by planes coming over. So that's how I left Dunkirk. And, of course, I went to sleep. The next thing I knew was it was Margate, wasn't it? Yeah, it Margate, not Ramsgate, Margate. And what's your name? Edward Oates. How old are you, sir?
Starting point is 00:17:18 97. And what were you doing in May and June of 1940? May and June? Waiting for a boat, I think. Land a Viking longship on island shores, scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt and avoid the Poisoner's Cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories
Starting point is 00:17:46 that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series, Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories,
Starting point is 00:18:06 listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. So you were with the BF, what unit were you in? I was in the 9th Army Field Workshop, REOC. And how long were you waiting in that perimeter before you got off the beach? It was five or six days, I think it was. I don't remember just exactly how long.
Starting point is 00:18:41 We were all we had to do was looking for food. And what do you remember about those days? Not a lot. I've got all the photographs, so I... I see the photographs and that brings some of it back. Were you on the mole waiting to get evacuated or were you on the beach? On the beach beach at Bray Dunes and then we walked from Bray Dunes into Dunkirk eventually after a few days when we
Starting point is 00:19:12 weren't getting away. And was it well organised or were things getting a little ragged by that stage? I don't know. I was worried as long as I got off. And so in the end, did you get off on a naval ship or one of the little ships? One of the little ships, yes. So did you wade it out to sea or how did it work? Well, we walked into Dunkirk and got on the docks. So I didn't have to go in and wade into the sea. We did wade into the sea before. We never managed to get on
Starting point is 00:19:48 anything. So we had to come back to the beach. But eventually when we got into Dunkirk, we got on the boat. But I tell you what, my boots polished up ever so shiny because they'd been in the sea
Starting point is 00:20:04 water, thoroughly wet for days and how many of you were on one of these little boats i don't know was it packed fairly yes he took as many as he could did you think this is it we must have lost the war or did you think you'd be back in Europe soon to take on Hitler? I didn't think anything about it. I was worried about getting off. And what was it like getting home? Oh, it was all right.
Starting point is 00:20:35 You must have been happy, though, seeing Kent. I was happy enough, yeah. On the crossing, was there any danger from German aircraft or any of that? No, I was asleep. Was there any danger from German aircraft or any of that? I was asleep. When I woke up, it was grey, misty dawn, and we finished up in Folkestone.
Starting point is 00:20:53 And that's all I remember of it. What did you do for the rest of the war? The Middle East. I was in army workshops, field workshops. What does it mean, coming back here, seeing all these boats alongside today? Do you love coming back and seeing these and meeting up with some of your old comrades? Yeah, if I see any of them, but there's not many of them left now. I think there's only me and George in our Dunkirk club that we're in.
Starting point is 00:21:28 All the others are supporters. All hangers-on. So what's your name, sir? William Matthews, Bill for France. Well, Bill, if I may. What were you doing at Dunkirk? Were you an infantryman? Infantryman? I was setting up in the sandhills.
Starting point is 00:21:48 We'd come off the beach, went back in the sandhills at the side of the beach for safety. And why was that? Was it artillery or German air attacks that were the problem? It was the Stukas. And then they could see us. So I had a stomach like a little white billiard ball and Bobby Clark beside me said, I told you not to upset them, he said. And they rock it down, straight down and then as they turned so the machine gunned the beach. But there's been worse things than when we got there, I come from Brussels to get down there and while we were in Brussels we found some papers. If you waved them to somebody, they would take you
Starting point is 00:22:50 prisoner, lay down your arms and you go back. Because all the regiments had moved back but they left a couple of platoons of guys to keep an eye on the people down there and report back. The Warwickshire Regiment, there was 88 bl in, he said, you've got to go through me. Anyway, we moved from Brussels across country to get to the seaside, and we found out afterwards that they'd executed the 88 Warwick's. executed the 88 Warwick's. Wow. Yeah, and when we got back home
Starting point is 00:23:49 and told them, oh look, the war's over now, don't want to worry about anything. It's basically, we've been striped trousers, isn't it? So what was it like being under German air attack? Did you feel completely helpless?
Starting point is 00:24:05 Yeah, we couldn't do anything. I had my face in the sand. Instead of having a stomach, it was like a billiard ball. Were you hungry as well and tired? Well, two days we'd been on the road, and we had no food. And then the Ben McCree, that's an all-I-man steamer,
Starting point is 00:24:34 came in. And he come in the grind side. The grind side of the water was deep. But this side, the water went out about a mile. And she backed into there we got aboard her and they grabbed your body equipment and they hold you and sling you aboard. I woke up in Folkestone and I don't know where I was, I know there were thousands of chaps there and then big marquee, thousands of new Dixies, I only got two dinners and I ate them. And when I finished those two, I'd cut the puddings and all. And that was Saturday night, half past eight.
Starting point is 00:25:31 And next minute, somebody's kicking me, and it's the sergeant sitting on your feet. It was Sunday, half past twelve. Slept out on the grass all night. And the regiment had gone down to Somerset. When you were in Dunkirk, how long were you hiding in those sand dunes in Dunkirk, waiting for a ride off that beach? Oh, that and a half. We were so disappointed in one place, we come along and we'd been told we were going to
Starting point is 00:26:11 a place called Dunkirk, so you'd be alright at Seaport. We come round the corner and there was an Normandy ship blazing from Stamfordstown. We said, we're here. When we got near it, it was brick built. It was a hotel. So we gave that the bounce and then we still carried on down the road. And you'd walked, retreating all the way
Starting point is 00:26:47 were you were you disillusioned were you feeling down or did you keep spirits up oh no uh clark and the rest of them and honey they um come on math pick your up. And for two days we walked down the outside because I had to get from Brussels. But we didn't know at the time that we were going the wrong way. The Germans had come in the Brussels and they were... We was in the palace. And a Frenchman come over he said the Germans are coming
Starting point is 00:27:32 through there so we said let's get out of it then there was no idea they had tanks there was 31 of us and there was big tanks and I carried an anti-tank rifle. Bullets that long. And I'm supposed to lay out in the middle of the road and as the tank comes towards me
Starting point is 00:28:06 line him up and then fire at him that's the point of the gun it wouldn't there's a boat like this laying on its side smoking
Starting point is 00:28:21 all over everywhere so the COE, sink that bloody thing. Land a Viking longship on island shores, scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt, and avoid the Poisoner's Cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer.
Starting point is 00:29:03 Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. And he fired. They've ricketyed off. Just bounced off. Yeah. He said, give me the gun. And he slung it.
Starting point is 00:29:32 And at that moment, I was standing by Captain Ricketts. And he gave, there was a big bang, a couple of big bangs and errors. And he went down and I looked at him. When I went down he got a wicked wound up here. So I grabbed him and told the other blokes and they held him on his feet and he got dirt, old tufts of grass there. And we can only imagine that it was a... Well, we don't know what it was, really. And we took him to the base where they got all this dirt. They said, leave him with us.
Starting point is 00:30:22 We'll take care of him. And we went back. Afterwards when I was at the Star and Garter, went up there to a dook, he was standing over there and I walked and he said don't i know you i said yeah i'm the bloke who me and the two others are taking us to the hospital and you're over but then everybody moved out so we didn't know what happened and he was back in England. And there he was alive. You saved his life. No, I wouldn't say that.
Starting point is 00:31:16 Somebody would have found him. What do you remember from those sand dunes? Were there dead and wounded lying around in those sand dunes from the air attacks? Oh, there's quite a lot. Those air attacks, when those suckers come down, straight down there, when you look up, you can see the green bomb fall away. And you get deeper in there. I wish I was a mole so I could dig a hole. A white billiard ball down here is a stark.
Starting point is 00:31:51 Can't keep set on me. We've been upset this lot like we have. Because then once they come out to dive, it's machine gun. But they'd be doing the beach, most of the beach, but where it's up the shelf part, where the long grass was. Was it every man for himself, or were men still obeying their officers and were still the military discipline? we did what the sergeant said.
Starting point is 00:32:28 Captain, Lieutenant Brooks Fox was a lieutenant of our battalion. And whenever you did anything, he used to say, the sergeant and I, the sergeant 34, we're going to do so and so. So whatever the sergeant said, we we did it and how did you get off the beach the on on the horizon the water there's a long groin and one side of the groin the water
Starting point is 00:33:01 went out about six feet all the way out. Big boats couldn't get in. So I had hundreds of little boats coming in. But I didn't fancy wading out on these jets like that. You can't run anywhere in the water. So the sergeant said, let's get back on the top of the beach in the sand dunes with the long grass. And when they must have seen us, they dropped a couple but they were nowhere near us. And it's just sand goes up in the air, a terrific noise. As fine as a dollar, it does. You've got a gun, it's like a white billiard ball. And I wish I was a mole.
Starting point is 00:33:58 And bleeding car, he turns round and says, we've upset him, mate. He said, we've had a horse for this. And then, so when did you what how which boat did you eventually manage to get off the beach on ben mccree the ben mccree it was a all-around uh steamer there's eight of them and this was one of them the plane was a bit noisy sorry so can i ask that again. The plane was a bit noisy, sorry. Can I ask that again? Because the plane was a bit noisy.
Starting point is 00:34:28 So what boat did you get off the beach on? Ben McCree. Ben McCree. And after the war, I wrote to the Isle of Man's first name and said, thank you very much. And they sent me a booklet and first class staffs and all stuff like that yeah so you got off on one of the little the little ships of dunkirk
Starting point is 00:34:56 yeah yeah well you'd say it was a little ship it was big to to me. Were there guys packed in there, standing room only? I don't know. I started climbing up the side and then Matt leaned over, grabbed me my equipment, and the next one. On the deck
Starting point is 00:35:23 I went and I woke up in Folkestone. That's all I know of the crossing. We'd been on the road all the way from Brussels. There was no food and everything like that we just kept going and the sergeant he kept us going no nobody ran or anything like that i'm doing he used to walk up and down he must have done it twice this sergeant but brook fox he'd walk up and down the unit making sure everyone was He must have done it twice. Yes, I did. But Brook Fox... So he'd walk up and down the unit, making sure everyone was... Yeah. And a terrible part was at Mundy Casino, Brook Fox was the first bloke killed.
Starting point is 00:36:18 He took a unit out and walked into that track. Yeah, he was a captain then. Well, thank you very much. Have a great day today. I will. So we're underway now. We're pottering along the River Thames on a nice sunny day in June. It's hard to imagine.
Starting point is 00:36:44 You've taken us across the channel, though. I mean, it's a different challenge, isn't it? Yeah, indeed. This is proper pleasure boating. Present company accepted, of course. No, it's a beautiful day at Windsor, and the water's flat. Completely different to the experience of crossing the channel. We're in a 26-foot boat.
Starting point is 00:37:03 Well, put it this way. We wouldn't do it for pleasure, probably, only if we needed to. What's interesting is every time one of us moves from one side of the boat to the other, the whole boat moves. So I don't quite know how that works with a load of soldiers on board in rough channel conditions. Yeah, indeed. And I don't think anybody would want to cross the channel with a load of soldiers on, under any circumstances.
Starting point is 00:37:22 Certainly when Firefly was at Dunkirk, we had an eyewitness account of the first thing that the skipper did, having loaded the boat up with men, and there was only five or six on board for a shuttle run out to HMS Antony. First thing he did was level them all up and order them around and get them in the right place, because it just makes it incredibly uncomfortable. You lean in and the boat doesn't go in a straight line and it's uh it's not pleasant um she's very uh very sensitive to
Starting point is 00:37:50 the way she's loaded i hope you enjoyed the podcast. Just before you go, bit of a favour to ask. I totally understand if you don't want to become a subscriber or pay me any cash money. Makes sense. But if you could just do me a favour, it's for free.
Starting point is 00:38:13 Go to iTunes or wherever you get your podcast. If you give it a five-star rating and give it an absolutely glowing review, purge yourself, give it a glowing review, I'd really appreciate that. It's tough weather, the law of the jungle out there
Starting point is 00:38:23 and I need all the fire support I can get. So that will boost it up the charts. It's so tiresome, but if you could do it, I'd be very, very grateful. Thank you. you

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