Dan Snow's History Hit - Emily Davison with Kate Willoughby

Episode Date: February 6, 2021

In this episode, originally released in 2018, Dan talks to actor, activist, and "part-time suffragette" Kate Willoughby about Emily Davison, the centenary of the Representation of the People Act, and what still needs to be done.

Douglas Adams, the genius behind The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, was a master satirist who cloaked a sharp political edge beneath his absurdist wit. Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth explores the ideas of the man who foresaw the dangers of the digital age and our failing politics with astounding clarity. Hear the recordings that inspired a generation of futurists, entrepreneurs, and politicians. Get Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth now at pushkin.fm slash audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold. Hi everybody, welcome. As always, the Dan Snow's History Hit. It's that time of the week, everybody. It's that time of the week when we revisit our archive. We crack open the ancient oak door. We tiptoe down the creaking

wooden floors. Great shelves covered in dusty manuscripts either side of us. And we lift out one particular item from the archive. And it is a previous episode of this podcast. It is an episode that we recorded two years ago on this very special day because the representation of the People Act 1918 was passed on the 6th of February 1918, 103 years ago this week. That act increased the male electorate in the UK, the number of men that could vote, from 5.2 million to 12.9 million, enfranchising millions and millions of working class men for the first time. And it allowed for the first time in national elections in the modern era, women to vote, or around eight and a half million women, two in five adult women. There was an age and a

property threshold for women. It's obviously a hugely important moment for the British Constitution. It was a hugely important moment, the centenary, three years ago. And we had the wonderful actor, activist, and historian Kate Willoughby on to talk about Emily Davison and that centenary of the representation of the People Act, and also what still needs to be done. Every week we put out an old classic, and it's worth remembering that we have several hundred episodes of this podcast stretching way back to 2015. They're all only available on History Hit TV. It's our digital history channel. We've got hundreds of podcasts on there. We've got hundreds of history documentaries on there. It's our digital history channel. We've got hundreds of podcasts on there. We've got

hundreds of history documentaries on there. It's just been relaunched. People seem to be loving the new version. They're watching it on Roku and all these other platforms. So thank you for all that feedback. Please head over to historyhit.tv and subscribe now. Thank you very much. In the in the meantime everyone enjoy the wonderful kate davis talking about the remarkable emily davis so kate we're sitting here in your hq you've got cuttings and press reports and lots of wonderful things all around us it feels like it doesn't it doesn't feel like a historian study it feels like a political action study to me.

Yeah, well, basically I'm drawing on the past and the legacy of the suffragettes. Obviously, I put one or two things out for you today and it's very much one of the things that I do with my project, Emily Matters, is for Emily Davison's birthday, Emily Davison, the suffragette, which is now International Day of the Girl.

We have a birthday tea for her and we broadcast that live and we get people involved from all over the world. And it's all about celebrating Emily herself, but also equality, social justice, access to good education for all. Did you come at this as an actor, as a historian, as an activist? How did you build this incredible campaign? It's all by accident. Well, I'm an actor-writer sort of by training. I've always loved history. When I was a little girl, my grandparents would drag me around in museums and castles until I

enjoyed it, which I do very much now. Sounds very familiar. And then I wrote this play called To Freedom's Cause about Emily Davison, but not just about her, about other real women, mainly working class women from the North who helped to get the right to vote, because it certainly wasn't just one woman that got the right to vote for all women in the UK. Yep. And of course, this year, 1918's anniversary, we're going to come on to that in a second. But let's talk about why did you choose Emily?

Why her? And talk to me a little bit about who she was. Well, I was doing some research in the Women's Library when it was actually near Aldgate. And I came across the letter that her mother sent her, which was the day after the Derby protest that Emily made in 1913. And that's a very famous protest. You may have seen the videos on YouTube. So this grainy footage of this woman at the Derby who sort of dips under the railings and stops. It was the king's horse and it was a huge, huge thing right in front of the cameras. And it was the letter that Margaret, her mother, had written. And she said that you've given your whole heart and soul

to the cause and it's done so little in return for you. And she said that you've given your whole heart and soul to the cause, and it's done so little in return for you. And then she signed it with oceans of love, your sorrowful mother. Now, that's just an extract from it. But as you can imagine, it was full of emotion, anger, love. And it really intrigued me this sort of relationship, I could tell between two very strong women. And I could sort of identify because myself and my mum, we sort of, you know, quite strong personalities and clash. And I really just sensed something. And that really, that's sort of what drew me in to Emily's story. And by the time Emily's mother had written that, was she dead? No, because she died four days later. So I believe it was read to her, but she never regained consciousness.

You've got to ask now that you've raised it, how is your mother proud of you? What does she think? You've done all this for so little. Well, I think she is proud, yes. She's a Yorkshire woman, so she doesn't necessarily always say it. But yeah, I think she is. Well, if you're listening, just drop your daughter a line. Tell her you're proud. Right. So tell me more about Emily's career. What kind of background? Where did she start from?

Well, she was actually born in London in Blackheath into a relatively affluent family. Her father was a lot older than her mother. And so she grew up, she had private tutors, and then she went to school in Blackheath. She went on to be a student at Royal Holloway, but it was there, partway through her studies, that her father died. And it turned out that he really didn't, well, he didn't leave anything. He had quite a large family before he'd married Emily's mum. And there was very little left for the newer family. So her mother had to move back to Northumberland and Emily tried to stay at Royal Holloway, but she couldn't afford it. So suddenly, from being really quite affluent, she had nothing.

And she had to then go and find work as a tutor. But she never gave up on her education. And she went back to it. And she ended up going to St. Hugh's in Oxford and graduated. Well, she didn't graduate, but she did get a first. Because at that point, women weren't allowed to graduate? That's right. Yes. So, yes, that was another injustice at that time,

something we take for granted today. But really, everything was stacked against women at that time. It wasn't just the vote, but the vote was a very symbolic and important step towards equality. And I think really, Emily's sort of background, she was known to be very sensitive to others as well, even though she'd had quite a wealthy start. Because of what happened to her, I think it really opened her eyes. And

this is why she was interested in the women's suffrage movement. And she joined the militant suffragettes in 1906. What was her journey like to direct action to militancy? I mean, had she tried suffragism and felt it wasn't getting anywhere? As far as I'm aware, it was really, I think it was Mrs Pankhurst, Emmeline Pankhurst, that really caught her attention because she was a great speaker. She was really inspired by her. And I think it was, there was something about the WSPU,

the Women's Social and Political Union, that they were really creative. A lot of the leaders were very educated. Emily was educated. So I think their arguments, their creativity really interested her. The fact that they'd had enough, it had been going on for decades and decades. And they just decided to step it up, to speak up more. But of course, the more they spoke up, then the establishment pushed back. And then that's when things really escalated. Why did we see the call for women voting growing by the end of the 19th century? What's going on with the role of women in society? Is it about them becoming more educated, enjoying more economic rights? Why did this sort of this tide reach such a high point?

Well, I would say it's a number of factors. I think you're right, there was better education, certainly for middle-class girls. And I think it was just a case that there were certain women out there who decided, maybe as individuals, but they started to come together, that really it was time, particularly as New Zealand, for example, women had been given the vote and the world didn't end. And it was obvious that this was a step.

And these bright, intelligent women just said, well, enough's enough. It's time that we got the right to vote. But also moving it towards equality. It wasn't just about the vote. So was it about political, social, economic rights as well? Yes, yes, very much so. One thing, because I think there's a bit of a myth that all the suffragettes were just about the vote and just about the vote for some women, women like us, as it were. That wasn't the case. Some of the leadership perhaps were, but women like Emily

Davison, Mary Lee, who's much lesser known now, but she features into Freedom's Cause and she was from Manchester, working class suffragette. There were a lot of women who were fighting for the vote as the first major step really to equality. But one thing I should say on the vote as well, there was a letter in the Evening Standard the other day and it did point out that in local elections, some women did actually have the vote. So it wasn't necessarily the first right to vote, but obviously it's more a higher level when it's national elections. So talk to me about Emily's journey to militancy. Was she frustrated by just the feeling that they weren't getting anywhere with going through conventional protest? Yes, and also on a personal level, she'd had to leave her education. She'd gone into being a governess and then a teacher

and really just not having the opportunities. She was really aware about equal pay. Of course, that's highly topical at the moment. And she was campaigning and writing about that as well, as I say, not just the vote. But I think really just seeing that there were so many bright, capable women out there who just didn't get the opportunities to use their skills and were being held back. And what form did her militancy take? her militancy you take well she was a very creative person and um in fairness to the organization the WSPU um they were quite regimental uh they sort of needed you know they had the top HQ and they directed things but Emily um she was very very imaginative and so she started to perhaps do

other things like she was the first suffragette who burnt some of the post boxes that were set alight. She also is rumoured to have set fire to a new house that Lloyd George was having built. It must be said, though, that with the really quite more extreme actions, the suffragettes were very careful to do these things when people weren't there. So it wasn't they weren't sort of trying to burn a house down with people in it. I'm not saying that was still a good thing, but they were mindful of that. But it was really the fact that they were trying to keep the issue of women's right to vote in the news because there were lots of other things like the Irish question at that time that were vying for attention. And as it always happened, there was a feeling of, oh, be patient, sisters. And they kept being put back. So it wasn't something that was taken up overnight. It was very much that it had gone on for decades. And to be honest, I think without the mix of perhaps more militancy,

not that we'd still be waiting now, but I don't know if you know what I mean, we might still be waiting for the vote now. Okay, so that's interesting, because that's now becoming more of a topic because we're seeing statues, a statue again in Parliament Square of someone who was very obviously not a suffragette but was a suffragist. So women who were using conventional and peaceful and legal methods to get the vote where it's become a bit of a thing and it probably shouldn't be because obviously there's a sliding scale. Do you think that the violent direct action accelerated the process or did it delay it, as some people are saying? I think in a way it's a bit of both. As I say, if it just stuck to the sort of lobbying and letter writing under the radar kind of campaigning, I think it would have been decades further on. And that really there needed to be some kind of campaigning. I think it would have been decades further on. And that really,

there needed to be some kind of agitation. So it was a combination of the two. And I, there is, I think at the moment, there's a feeling of was one better than the other. And I think you really needed both. land a viking longship on island shores scramble over the dunes of ancient egypt and avoid the poisoner's cup in renaissance florence each week on echoes History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series, Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows

or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. Douglas Adams, the genius behind The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, was a master satirist who cloaked a sharp political edge beneath his absurdist wit. Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth explores the ideas of the man who foresaw the dangers of the digital age and our failing politics with astounding clarity. Here are the recordings that inspired a generation of futurists, entrepreneurs and politicians. Get Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth now at pushkin.fm

slash audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold. Let's talk about, so Emily is, Emily Davison is taking direct action. She famously tries to burn down Lloyd George's house, which always makes me laugh. And then, I don't know why, and then most famous probably now for this, the final epic run at the King's Horse. Was that a suicide mission or was it a terrible accident?

Well, because I wasn't there and none of us were, we won't know for absolute certain. However, it looks like it was something that was a last minute thing. It is looking at the evidence, it seems that she was planning to take the colours of the WSPU to the paddock where the King's horse is being paraded. But it is rumoured that she was spotted by somebody because she was a very famous suffragette and she'd gone on her own as well. And she wasn't wearing anything sort of suffragette like, it was all hidden inside her coat. So it looks like she kind of had to do a plan B and she was watching the horses go by. She went to Tattenham Corner and she was marking off the race card.

And then obviously, as you can see on the clip, she nips under under the railings. And she obviously was going for the king's horse. But whether it was chance or, you know, that she did actually stop the king's horse. But one thing as well, I think that language matters because still there's that old thing where people say she threw herself under the horse. She obviously didn't when you watch the footage. It's quite chilling, actually, because she's just walking towards the horse and she reaches up to stop it. One theory, which is Irene Cockcroft, who's a women's suffrage expert, she feels that perhaps the paper in her hand, rather than being a scarf, was actually a petition to the king and it was a very symbolic gesture.

So when you see it actually fall to the ground, it doesn't fall like a piece of silk. It does fall like a card almost. So that is potentially what it was. Again, very symbolic. And she did obviously choose that the cameras were just opposite. She was very, very savvy about using new media. And had she and other suffragettes been here today, they would have been all over social media. What was the impact of that accident? Was it talked about everywhere? And did it encourage, do you think it helped or hindered or what what impact do you think it had well it was a huge huge impact um there were obviously those people

who said um in fact the queen had said oh that horrid woman when she wrote to the jockey Herbert Jones afterwards to see how he was he was absolutely he was injured but he you know with no um long- term ill effect. And the horse was fine as well. I know that bothers people. But there were so there were some people who were very cross and it kind of fuelled that, you know, suffraget the turnout of people who came to the huge gathering in London where her coffin was paraded and then went the service for her funeral. Well, it was the memorial service, really, in Bloomsbury. And then, of course, she was taken up to Morpeth where she's buried. And again, thousands of people turned up who were not shouting and screaming, you know, bad things.

It was there were one or two voices. I believe one voice in London was three cheers for Herbert Jones, which does feature into Freedom's Cause. So there was a little bit of opposition. But most people, I think, were very moved that she felt so strongly that women should have the right to vote, that she lost her life. But I wouldn't say it was deliberate suicide, but she knew the risks. You've received extraordinary accolades and you've launched an entire campaign, Emily Matters, but To Freedom's Cause was your play that you wrote. What was it, what do you think is, what modern audiences really enjoyed the most and gained the most, do you think, from your performances? One of the main things that came out, and I've taken it to all sorts of different places,

whether it's theatres, community halls, or I took it to Downview Prison as well. And it was the mother-daughter relationship, which is where it all began with that letter. And there are scenes with mother and daughter in Northumberland, and they clearly absolutely love each other. But the mother, Margaret, is really struggling that her daughter is passionate about the campaign, but she's coming back battered and bruised and, you know, physically weaker each time. So there's a whole lot of love, but at the same time, she's sort of fighting in herself to try and understand and to actually try and persuade Emily to pull back.

But Emily is very loyal to her friends in the suffragette movement. The thing about the suffrage, and I believe the suffragist movement, it was women coming together, and that's really an element in the play. It's not just about one woman. It's lesser known suffragettes like Mary Lee, Connie Ellis from Newcastle, and other women as well that came together and also with male allies, we mustn't forget that, to eventually push. And of course, 1918, we had the first group of women

that got the right to vote in UK elections. Yes, let's talk about 1918. Do you think, this is one of those really boring kind of A-level questions, but did the decision to give the vote to women in 1918, was that about the pre-war campaigning? Or was that about what had happened during the war and the huge societal changes that had gone on? Well, obviously, because all men got the vote, I think that was very much about the war effort, obviously, for the men. But for the women, there was definitely a feeling that militant campaigning would begin again. So I think it was a case of a bit of pragmatism to perhaps ward off the militancy starting up again. I do think that had definitely had a role to play.

But of course, it wasn't for all women. And I was looking at some of the anti-suffrage publications and they were absolutely horrified because there would be more women voters than men. So it was a gesture. But of course, it was another 10 years before all women got the right to vote. And obviously, that is the big one. However, this year, it's a very important anniversary. It's that first major step. Yeah, we should say the representation of people like 1918. So the votes massively extended out to what you might describe working class men. I guess, you know, they'd fought in the trenches. It's difficult to deny that. It's one of the great extensions of franchises.

But then women. Now, let's be let's be clear, not all women. It's women over 30. Yes. And they had to meet certain property qualifications as well. So it wouldn't be, you know, the working class suffragists and suffragettes, they wouldn't be included. And so obviously campaigning did still continue, but the militancy did stop. And when the politicians were justifying it, I mean, was it still very contentious in 1918? Or was it one of those, everyone was just war weary, had the women coming into the factories, the women helping out with the warfare, had that convinced even the most conservative people that women deserve the vote?

Well, I think there probably was still some opposition. However, I think the public mood had changed. So, as I say, it was quite pragmatic. It was only certain women that were allowed the right to vote. And I think it was also, again, not saying they were worried about the militancy, but to sort of put it on the war effort. So I think that's why there was a focus on that. But I do think on a sort of practical side, I think the threat of militancy, I think, would have focused minds as well.

A hundred years on, how do you think we should be thinking about 1918 and the suffrage movement generally? Well, the work I've been doing with Emily Matters, which I am sort of developing as a legacy project, it's actually at the moment, we're sort of adapting it slightly. So it's at a formative stage at the moment. But what I found speaking with young voters or young potential voters is this kind of feeling that, well, my voice doesn't really matter. It doesn't count. I don't count. And so the work that I've been doing has been drawing on the legacies of women like Emily Davison, who fought so hard for us to have the right to vote. And I sort of ask, if it was if

it meant so little to have that right to vote, do you think that suffragists, but particularly suffragettes, would have pushed so hard and the establishment would have pushed back so hard and employed forcible feeding, which was basically torture, to try and frighten the women, to stop them campaigning for the vote? Do you really think that they would have um fought back so hard if it didn't matter that's a very very powerful point um it's very inspiring to to i interview lots of historians on this it's lovely to meet an activist who but

who draws all their inspiration and motivation from history so So that's great. Now, you've got a, I think you've got a piece that you want to perform. That's from, and tell me where it's from. Yeah. So it's from the new version of To Freedom's Cause because there'll be in, the reason that Emily Matters started, it started by accident. by accident because I took the play to the House of Commons to support actually a campaign for a suffragette statue in Parliament which was Emily Thornberry was supporting that was leading that so it was all by chance and this I wrote this in 2015 this speech I wrote it by the sea and there's the idea this is just an extract from it, but there's an idea of the waves of feminism as it were

which I think obviously sitting by the sea and the waves that were obviously the sounds of the waves and that feeling and it's the idea that Emily's speaking in 1913 but she's reaching out to future generations and it's a call to action but a call to action as in

that equality matters matters the job isn't finished and i think when we look around today with campaigns like me too and there's some really interesting campaigns um there's a young woman who has a campaign about um sanitary products for uh girls who are on low parents are on low incomes these kind of things um there's still a lot to be done on a local and national and international level so yeah i'll um give it a go okay to be a suffragette takes courage the prize of equality is our pearl we are feminists and our noble struggle is for generations yet unborn. The powers that be may shame us, shun us and question our sanity.

But we will never give in, no matter the cost. Onwards to victory. But we are also human. And I'm so very tired. They do not listen to reason, these charming men who will preserve the status quo by all means necessary. It is truly sickening that something that is so simple and clear can be rebutted by the egos of a few narrow-minded men who happen to hold the keys to the door of the mother of all parliaments, a door that has been closed to us for far too long. We will continue to knock, to petition,

even though our fists bleed and bones are broken. We will not be bullied. Our voices will be heard. And we will continue to rise up, wave upon wave, in ever greater numbers until they silence us no more. I have suffered alongside my sister suffragettes. But we do it gladly because we trust that you will carry forwards that precious torch of democracy and freedom. Keep pushing until women and men are equal. When no child is told she is unworthy, that her voice simply doesn't matter because she is a girl. Thank you.

No surrender. How can people stay in touch with your campaign? Or come and see you perform? Well, we're all across social media. So if you're on Twitter, it's at Emily Matters. On Facebook, we're actually the name of the play, which is at To Freedom's Cause. And we're also at To Freedom's Cause on Instagram, which we absolutely love. Yes, it's a really fantastic week.

Some of the things I'll be doing I'm going to be attending the very special event in Parliament on the 6th of February which is the actual anniversary of the Representation of the People Act so I'm very excited about that and I'm due to actually perform the full speech at an event the next day in Westminster. And looking ahead further in the year, there are going to be performances, and I hope some performances of To Freedom's Cause in a new edition, which is very much about passing the baton to the next generation. So when you're in Parliament, where are we? 100 years, one third of MPs are women? Yeah, just over. So I mean, that shows you in the very heart of our democracy, how much further we've got to go. Well, as you say in your wonderful speech that you've written for Emily, keep pushing.

Hi, just a quick message at the end of this podcast. I've got a little tiny favour to ask. If you could go to wherever you get your podcasts, if you could give it a five-star rating, if you could share it, if you could give it a review, I'd really appreciate that. Then from the comfort of your own homes, you'll be doing me a massive favour. Then more people will listen to the podcast, we can do more and more ambitious things, and I can spend more of my time getting pummeled. Thank you. Douglas Adams, the genius behind The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, was a master satirist who cloaked a sharp political edge beneath his absurdist wit. Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth explores the ideas of the man who foresaw the dangers of the digital age and our failing politics with astounding clarity.

Hear the recordings that inspired a generation of futurists, entrepreneurs and politicians. Get Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth now at pushkin.fm slash audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold.