Dan Snow's History Hit - Eurovision

Episode Date: May 22, 2021

Eurovision is an annual extravaganza of European music and culture but what is its history and what role does it play? To help explore this subject Dan is joined by two men steeped in Eurviosion; TV and podcast critic Scotty Byran and Radio 1 DJ and Eurovision commentator Scott Mills. They describe what Eurovision means to them, some of the history of the competition, how the rest of Europe treat it much more seriously than the UK, why it still stands out in the era of streaming and, most importantly, which songs you should look out for this year.

Some things just take too long. A meeting that could have been an email, someone explaining crypto, or switching mobile providers. Except with Fizz. Switching to Fizz is quick and easy. Mobile plans start at $17 a month. Certain conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca. Everybody, welcome to the pod. It is the Eurovision episode, folks. By popular demand, we're back talking about Eurovision. It's history. What is it? Why is it? And how is it? Well, I think whenever I turn on the television to watch this annual extravaganza. I'm very lucky to have two Scots on this podcast. First up, you're gonna

hear from Scott Bryan. He's a TV critic. He's a broadcaster. He's got the Must Watch pod on BBC Five Live. And he's a lovely guy that knows all about Eurovision. And then I've got radio royalty. Always the best for you guys. Scott Mills. Scott Mills has had a show on BBC Radio 1 since 1998. That is a bonkers run. Am I still going to be doing this pod in 20 years time? Probably not,

you'll be glad to hear. Anyway, I'm very glad Scott Mills does still have his show. He's an absolute legend. He's been working on Eurovision for years. And it was great to hear from two professionals why they think Eurovision still matters, perhaps even more so in a music world rapidly changing. Wherever you are in the world do enjoy watching Eurovision tonight if you prefer understandably watching history documentaries then you may want to go to historyhit.tv it's the world's best history channel you sign up historyhit.tv and you've got access to hundreds of hours of history documentaries and you can be in the right place when my Bismarck program drops next week and potentially knocks Dr. Elna Janneger's medieval programs out of the top five. But I doubt it. They are proving

extremely popular. So well done to her and the team. So head over to historyhit.tv and make up your own mind. But in the meantime, everyone, here's our Eurovision special. Enjoy. Scott, thanks for coming on. Happy to be here. How big is Eurovision? It's huge. I mean, like, this is the thing. It's not just one of the biggest shows. It's also one of the longest running TV shows in history. I think it is a show that feels really big when you watch it on TV because this is a made for TV event. But when you're there, I think it's also a huge thing as well. It's also, I think, a huge honour if you actually win it because not only does it advertise your country,

I think it also massively can make a star from your own performance. But it's also, I think, something which is quite rare in that it brings everybody together around the world to a single moment. And I find it fascinating that at a time when you can pretty much watch anything at any time, you can still get 200 million or so people to watch the same event on a Saturday night and everyone has so many different talking points about it and opinions about it. I find that fascinating. I think if they planned it today, if they fought up the idea today, it probably just wouldn't work. Let's go all the way back to the beginning. Was it ever conceived as a giant global broadcasting event? Oh, absolutely not. No. So this was fought up by

the European Broadcasting Union, who is a sort of collective of public service broadcasters throughout Europe. And after the end of World War II, I think there was this idea that they wanted to have something to bring Europe together, at least in the televisual sense. And it started in a very small, eight countries in the mid-1950s. The UK weren't even participating in that first contest. We came in the second. But it came with this collective idea of, okay, well, what can we do if we have all of Europe together? Then they sort of came up quite quickly about, oh, okay,

we can make it a competition of some form. And it's like, well, what is the universal thing that brings people together no matter where they are? Songs and competition. And it just grew from there. So it's a fascinating portrait because it started black and white TV only a few years after the Queen's coronation. And then with every few years,

more countries would get in and get involved. And now you've got this weekend, 39 countries competing, so many countries knocking on the door, trying to compete. You've also got Australia competing from the other side of the world. It has also managed to push so many different grounds

by the fact that they had satellite technology, brand new innovations, years before it became the standard norm in terms of bringing everything together. And now it has just become this huge phenomena, which also, I think, alienates so many people around the world who watch this event, such as in America, and feel confused about why it's so big and so beloved. But it's all of those little customs and traditions that have kept going, like the televoting, the rules about how long a song can perform for. It's a tried and tested model of success and failure to where it is today.

It feels like a hugely successful and beloved European project compared to some of its parallel initiatives. I can see where you're coming from. I mean, I studied EU governance at uni, and of course, it's a lot more exciting seeing it from the music angle compared to the politics side. I find it fascinating in terms of how we have learned, I think, as viewers to Eurovision more about the different cultures and the different things that are viewed to be successful. And I think for many, particularly within Britain, it's an insight into where a lot of these countries are and what their music scenes are like. And I think when else are you going to find out about, you know, here's three minutes from a song from North Macedonia,

or here is what is currently top of the charts in Cyprus, or here's the X Factor contestant from Romania. You're never going to get that. And I think in terms of having an understanding about different cultures across Europe, I think you do get that from a three-minute performance, or you get that from wherever the contest is held that year. I mean, this is the thing also is that it's a popularity contest.

So whether the songs accurately reflect what's popular in the music sense in that country is another thing, because, of course, a lot of the songs can end up sounding quite generic and samey because they're all trying to win and gain popularity. But I also think it's interesting in terms of sometimes, particularly with sort of LGBT visibility, a lot of Eastern European countries that might not have the same legalisations in terms of laws would see depictions of gay relationships within songs or same-sex kisses within performances. And normally their TV channels would shy away from that and wouldn't show that. But Eurovision, because they all have to carry this feed, they all end up showing it. So it's, I think, an interesting kind of soft politics way into changing norms and societal values rather than having it through, let's say,

a EU governance sort of strategy. Yes, we can stick it to Viktor Orban by supporting it. Great stuff. Yeah, totally. In the UK, is it still a bit of a joke? Is it treated differently elsewhere? So that's the general historical sense. But you look at the ratings, and the ratings still get some years above 10 million people. And I keep thinking, wow, we all see this thing as a joke and yet a fifth of the entire population watches it. And in comparison to a lot of countries throughout Europe, it's a higher share

of viewers watching that main broadcast. So yes, we do mock it. We have Graham Norton doing wry commentary and essentially there'll be some performance, I think two years ago, he was making a comment about Albania performing second and then he would say, well, no one's ever won coming second. Will that change? No. You know, really wry things. And I think that draws in some viewers, but I think it's also people watching it primarily because they've known that they've always watched it it's like a once a year event and I think many people have grown up with this and have watched this from when they were kids so I think it's that tradition I do think though in the music sense the artists we put

forward are treated much more seriously in the continent so if if you look at the array of X Factor winners or reality show competition winners that have already won shows, they naturally get put forward to Eurovision now. You also have some artists who have had many strings of hits. So I think Sweden's entry this year, Malta's entry this year. These are songs that have already got tens of millions of plays on Spotify that have been brought through in some cases, particularly in Nordic countries, weeks upon weeks of knockout competitions to decide who they send forward for their entrant. I mean, we have had that in the past, but normally it's just decided by the BBC a few months before, oh, we're going

to send that person. And I think it's sometimes harder to get a real buzz behind that country just because we do a bit more short term whilst maybe in Europe they plan it a bit more, you know, months and months and months ahead. As a TV guru in a world of streaming and on demand, how much does it now matter that you have a TV property that can command millions of views like this? It is a massive thing, I think, particularly with young viewers. There's so many different forms of entertainment now from the Internet to TikTok to social media constantly. And it's very rare to bring something together. If you look at the last year, though, with viewing figures, it's been a very surreal year, of course, because we've all been inside in light of the pandemic.

And with TV particularly, it's had a very big year. So shows like Bake Off and Strictly Come Dancing and, of course, Line of Duty have had way more than 10 million viewers, which is much higher than I think everyone planned. And I think when we've all been apart from each other, TV is one of the rare things that can still bring us together. There's no feeling, I think, than watching a TV show, knowing that everybody else is watching it with you and dissecting it alongside with you and having their own takes on it.

And social media lends itself so much to event TV because everyone's now got an opinion or takes the mic or has their own sort of opinion on who will win and who will fail. That it's huge on such nights such as Eurovision is an interesting one as well because it's all swayed by popular opinion. And of course course music is aimed squarely a lot at young people who then decide which acts get put forward a lot of songs participating by artists are in their early 20s starting their big career so there's so many different things that I think while Eurovision still works so phenomenally well now there's nothing like live tv and I also sort of personally feel it's really quite unique

in terms of these are public service broadcasters across Europe joining together doing this at an age where there are streaming services such as Amazon or Netflix with billions of dollars worth of money trying to work out how they can go and get audiences to watch their programs. And I think they would love to have a version of something that they can do. But I just don't think that they would be able to because they don't have the history and tradition of a show like this. And I think it's an interesting fact that where the public service broadcasters, the EBU, the BBC have an advantage is over live events, because if you look at all of the shows on Netflix or on Amazon, they're all shows to watch on demand. They don't really do live events apart from sports.

Well, I'm sure that day is fast approaching. Scott, you're such an important guide to all things TV. How can people stay in touch with you, follow your work? So I would say the best way is to listen to the Must Watch podcast, which is on BBC Sounds, where myself, Nahal and Hayley basically review all of last week's TV, the good and the really bad. Also, I'm on Twitter at ScottyGB. And I just want to say that's not me being patriotic.

That's just my initials of my name. So it's Scotty with a Y and then GB. And I'm pretty much tweeting about TV constantly there. I follow you religiously to find out what's happening in my industry. Oh, great. Thank you. Will you be watching this weekend? I've already been watching the semifinals because, of course, it started on Tuesday and then there's Thursday. And it's interesting, you know, this year because of the way that is being set up indifferently according to the pandemic.

So there's a limited audience of only 3,500 people. A delegation and the entrants are still travelling, but they have to quarantine before they get there. They're not allowed to party. They're not allowed to even mix with other contestants. They have to stay in their hotel rooms essentially when they aren't performing or being backstage. So it's got a very different feel than what it would normally do because it's not this massive, large scale event that you would normally expect. But it's also, for me, like surprisingly emotional because with the exception of, let's say, the Brit Awards, which was also a test event, there's been no kind of live TV event on TV for nearly two years now, properly on that scale. And when it was starting on Tuesday, where they were

sort of showing the dancers and the hosts on, it was like a return to normality. Yes, it's Eurovision. I know it's not everyone's taste, but it felt so much more special because it's more accustomed to what we've had before, rather than this weird new normal that we've been having over the last sort of 18 months. Yeah, my annual tradition is also about to be rekindled. Can't wait. Thanks, Scott. No problem at all. Thank you. You're listening to Dan Snow's History.

We've got the two Scots on talking about Eurovision. More after this. Have you heard of the teenage werewolf prosecuted in 1603? Did you know that the 17th century British government relied heavily on female spies? And do you want to know about chin-chucking and thigh sex? Of course you do. I'm Susanna Lipscomb, and my new podcast, Not Just the Tudors,

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There are new episodes every week. Scott Mills, thank you so much for coming on Audio Royalty well thank you so much for asking me as soon as they said do you want to be on this one I was like uh yeah because as you know there are a million podcasts out there but I know that this is one of the best so appreciate you asking me you are a Eurovision guy what's it mean to you well I've now worked on it for 10 years not on the show that most people see but on the semi-finals now a lot of people in the UK didn't even realize there were semi-finals they some people still don't they think Eurovision is a one-off tv show on a Saturday night in May but the reason for is, is that the UK doesn't have to go

through a semi-final process. So most countries go through the semi-finals and then some get knocked out. So they don't even make it to the final that most people know on a TV on a Saturday night. It's something that I watched as a child and I just found it joyful. I enjoyed the kind of mixing of cultures and sometimes the language barrier and sometimes actually some great songs and some really weird songs and some bad songs. and some really weird songs, and some bad songs. But at the heart of it, it's just a really positive, actually huge event. I mean, when you watch it, you're like,

televisually, it's incredible. If you watch old Eurovisions, like back when ABBA won in like 74, I think it was in like a small theater in brighton and everyone sat down having dinner it's quite a small affair it's a bit like the 70s version of the brit awards you know everyone just sat there having a nice dinner and but now it's watched by 200 million people all over the world and it's launched a career of some massive musicians and it's about bringing people together it's really positive and it's a big party tell me about those artists because there is a sense that Eurovision success doesn't lead to real world success is that unfair I think it's a little unfair because I think that's the way that we see it in the UK.

If you go to any other country in Europe, I mean, let's pick a prime example, Sweden. There's no kind of sneering at the Eurovision Song Contest, which we still do a little bit. It's a bit like, oh, well, it's not real music, is it? which we still do a little bit, it's a bit like, oh, that's not real music, is it? If you go to the contest in Sweden when they hold it there, you will see the coolest 17-year-olds who would never go to it here. They wouldn't be seen dead admitting to liking Eurovision,

right up to 70- and 80-year-old people who have watched it all their lives on television to put it in perspective the show they have in sweden to find the entry to go to eurovision is an eight-week process on television called melody festival and they have it in the darkest months of sweden which is january and february where it never gets. So there's nothing to do but watch TV. And it's a bit like Eurovision itself. It's really bright. It's colorful. It's fun.

And I don't know if you've ever been to Sweden in the winter. It's bleak. So as a result of that, 80, 80% of the population watch just the process of who is going to be their Eurovision entry that year. So as you see, we kind of poo-poo it a bit. But if you go to any other country, it's a huge thing for artists to be the representative of their country. Because actually, if it gets held in lisbon or if it gets held in kiev or baku it's a huge boost for their tourism and it's a massive television advert for their country watched by 200 million people i remember when we went to azerbaijan a years ago now, they had skyscrapers built just so they could look good on Eurovision to encourage and entice people to come to Baku. I mean, we're spoiled here in the UK because everyone knows that we've got Big Ben and we've got blah, blah, blah.

And here's London. And like, it's famous around the world. Everybody knows it. Does anyone know what Baku looks like? They don't. So I think we're coming at it from a point of being quite spoiled. And like, well, everyone knows about the UK. And a lot of countries don't have that.

They see that as a massive opportunity to show off their country and it costs billions of euros to put on. What are some of the moments that you've witnessed that you think deserve their place in music history? Well, I mean, it's different, you see. If you take a country or any country like the Croatian entry this year, OK, that's already been number one in Croatia and all of the surrounding countries. If you take a song like Daddy Freya, which was last year's Iceland entry, that's been number one in all of the Scandinavian countries. So you see, locally or semi-locally these people do incredibly well and there have

been some breakout hits there's a song which i think changed the competition and made it more in the eyes of everyone made it more modern and that was laureen euphoria which won for sweden in 2012 number one hit all over the world. Unusually for a Eurovision song, made it into the charts here in the top 10. And then the last winner, which is the reason that the competition is in Rotterdam this year,

2019, because it didn't happen last year, Duncan Lawrence, Arcade. That has been the first Eurovision song in 45 years to chart in America. And it became a TikTok trend. And now that guy is set for life. And we don't think about that here. We're like, well, who's Duncan Lawrence? Oh, he won Eurovision once. I mean, I think he has something like 1 million Instagram followers now. And if you look at his Instagram maybe not here maybe he has like one date here but around the world he has tour dates and eurovision did that sounds to me like you think eurovision is

getting bigger and more globally relevant i think so i think it's very easy here because we've not been particularly good at it and we haven't had a success rate of late it's very easy to forget that we are a small island an important one but a small one and around the world i mean if you look up some of these contestants we're just not aware of them but in their own world in their own sphere they're super famous who are we looking out for this year okay so there's been quite a lot of drama this year so there are two semi-finals tuesday and thursday and then the final on saturday that's what always happens normally i would be in the host city and country but i'm doing it from london this year commentating from london because it's just not

possible with COVID. They do have an audience in there though, which was good to see. So there's 3,500 people in the arena because I thought there was not going to be any, but it's a test event like we've had here in the UK. So people get tested and it's all local people. It's all Dutch people, but at least there's an audience, you know, and also the contest has not been without its dramas this year. So the Iceland entry, who is one of the favourites, who I absolutely love, Daddy Freya with the track Ten Years,

I feel really sorry for him and for his band because it's a group of his best mates from school and his wife, who's heavily pregnant, on stage, and some of his family. I think it's his brother and sister. So they tried to enter in 2019, didn't get through the selection process. Last year, they made it. They represented Iceland.

They would have won, to be honest, with the track Think About Things. That was a massive track then the contest didn't happen then they got re-selected this year and then a member of the band who was on stage got a positive test result

and at the stage of recording this it looks like they're not going to be able to take part in the semi-final on Thursday or the live show and at that point what they do is they use the recording from one of the rehearsals but that's not the same because these guys have literally put their whole lives and actually their own money into this and it's been their whole life for three years and then I don't think it's going to happen now so I feel sad for them even though obviously everyone is following protocols and being safe

the pandemic is still affecting it you know two years later tough year for volcanic iceland all round really tough another one you should be looking out for is a girl called i mean i think she could win the whole thing now especially with iceland potentially out her name is destiny she's 18 it's a song about female empowerment she performs it brilliantly there are some ridiculously high notes which she hits all of them she's got form at eurovision because she this is another thing that everyone in europe cares about but we don't she won junior eurovision when she was 13 now she's 18 and i think see we're going to listen to this back and i'll be proved wrong but i think that she could win the whole thing it's just a great three minute pop song with everything you need from eurovision you've got me excited now big tradition Me and my mum watch it every year.

There's some good ones this year. Because there's not been a Eurovision now since 2019, it's almost like all the countries saved up, all got better. They've sent great songs this year. Yes, there are some bonkers ones. There are some ones that you won't understand at all and be like, okay, fine. But often that's down to

cultural references that maybe we don't get. And there are some decent pop bangers in there. So yeah, it's going to be a good show. How can everyone watch you, Scott? The grand final is on BBC One, 8pm on Saturday night. Thanks so much for coming on.

An absolute pleasure. I loved it. Thanks so much. I feel the hand of history upon our shoulders. All this tradition of ours, our school history, our songs, this part of the history of our country, all were gone and finished. I've got just a quick message at the end of this podcast. I'm currently sheltering in a small windswept building on a piece of rock in the Bristol Channel called Lundy. I'm here to make a podcast.

I'm here enduring weather that frankly is apocalyptic because I want to get some great podcast material for you guys. In return, I've got a little tiny favour to ask. If you could go to wherever you get your podcasts, if you could give it a five-star rating, if you could share it, if you could give it a review, I'd really appreciate that. Then from the comfort of your own homes, you'll be doing me a massive favor. Then more people will listen to the podcast. We can do more and more ambitious things,

and I can spend more of my time getting pummeled. Thank you. Some things just take too long. A meeting that could have been an email, someone explaining crypto, or switching mobile providers. Except with Fizz. Switching to Fizz is quick and easy. Mobile plans start at $17 a month. Certain conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca.