Dan Snow's History Hit - Falklands40: Return to Mount Tumbledown

Episode Date: June 12, 2022

The Battle of Mount Tumbledown was an attack by the British Army and the Royal Marines on the heights overlooking Stanley, the Falkland Islands' capital. One of a number of night battles that took place during the British advance towards Stanley, the battle led to British troops capturing all the heights above the town.Professor Tony Pollard is a Professor of Conflict History and Archaeology. Tony joins Dan to detail the battlefield of Mount Tumbledown, the events that led to the capture of Stanley, and the surrender of the Argentine forces on the islands. Tony and Dan also discuss the Falklands War Mapping Project (FWMP), which Tony co-founded with Dr. Timothy Clack. The first time that veterans have taken part- the project uses archaeology to try and alleviate the stresses of PTSD.Produced by Mariana Des Forges and Hannah WardMixed and Mastered by Dougal PatmoreIf you'd like to learn more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad-free podcasts and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe today! To download the History Hit app please go to the Android or Apple store.

Hi everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. It's the 40th anniversary on the 13th to the 14th of June of the Battle of Mount Tumbledown, one of the hill battles fought outside Stanley, the capital of Falkland Islands, during the war to liberate the Falklands from Argentinian occupation. This battle saw the 2nd Battalion of the Scots Guards, with some other units attached, but mainly the Scots Guards, attack a well-dug-in, fortified position of Argentine defenders astride one of the great hills that really guard the approach to Stanley. You may have heard the names of some of the other hill battles, like Longdon, Wireless Ridge. Well, Tumbledown was one of the bloodiest and hardest

fought in the campaign to liberate the islands. The Argentinian defenders were a mix of conscriptals, some professional troops, and that showed in the tenacity of their defence. The close quarters night battle has become one of the most memorialised, talked about moments of the Falklands War. There was a BBC TV drama called Tumbledown that millions of people watched when it first broadcast. And so we thought it was important to mark its anniversary. And we did so in a very special way. We've got friend of the pod, in fact, the very brilliant Tony Pollard. Everyone loves Tony Pollard. He's been on many times before. He's a professor of conflict history and archaeology in Glasgow

he co-founded a project to take veterans back to the Falkland Islands veterans suffering with the effects of trauma they sustained in battle the enduring effects of that trauma PTSD take those veterans back and encourage them to take part in archaeological investigations of the battlefield he talks very movingly about you'll hear in this podcast, not just about the battle itself, but also of the impact that going back has had on some of those veterans. Fascinating stuff. If you want to watch a documentary on the Falkland Islands, part one has gone out in history at TV. It's on one of our most successful ever shows, interviews with many veterans, Argentine and UK. And you

can check that out if you just go to History Hit TV. If you follow the link in the notes of this podcast, you get taken there, you get two weeks for free. And then for less than the price of a pint of beer, you get a certain glass of wine. You get unlimited History Hit TV. You can watch much like hundreds of hours of history documentaries on there there lots of podcasts on there please go and check it out in the meantime folks here's the brilliant Tony Pollard talking about his trip to the Falklands enjoy Tony great to have you back on the podcast nice to be here again Dan well you've just been on a fascinating trip overcoming Covid to get to the Falkland Islands. What was the idea behind this 40th anniversary trip and who did you go with?

Well, it's been a long time planning. I've had an aspiration to do what we might call the archaeology of the Falklands War since 2012, which was the 30th anniversary. It was the first trip I made and I've made several since. And I started talking to the Falklands government about the importance of recording all of the material remains from 1982. And they ultimately agreed that this was an important thing. It's part of their cultural heritage. And it really went nowhere until my co-director on the Falklands War mapping project, as it is now known, Dr. Tim Clack at the University of Oxford stepped in and we teamed up. He'd actually been in Stanley doing a bit of archaeology on a development site,

on a housing development and encountered remains from the Falklands War. He also has family connections to the conflict. countered remains from the Falklands War. He also has family connections to the conflict. So he, like me, shares a passion with the period and the material remains and indeed the people involved in the war. And so we teamed up together along with my old friends at Waterloo Uncovered because the aspiration was to take along veterans of the war. And this was a real challenge because obviously mental health is a serious issue. And it was the Falklands War which brought to light, certainly for the British,

the realities of what we now know as PTSD. So we brought in Waterloo Uncovered, who I've been working with for the past five or six years. And we take out military veterans to Belgium to work on the 200-year-old battlefield. And we have an incredible team of well-being specialists. And so we brought them in and shared their experience. And Rod Eldridge, who's the Waterloo Uncovered wellbeing lead, came down with us. And he was kind of the mentor and chaperone of our two veterans.

And we decided to focus on the Battle of Tumbledown. Given that I'm at Glasgow University, I was very interested in the Scottish side of things. So the Scots Guards were a natural choice. And through Major General Sir John Kisley, who was at the time a Major rather than a General, he was Commander of Left Flank Company Scots Guards and played a key role in the battle. He helped us to select two of his men, two veterans, and we ended up going with Jim Peters and John Littrick, who were both from Left Flank Company. And they went down and the rest, as they say, is history. It was an incredible experience, very emotional.

And we could talk about a bit of that. We had two Land Rovers with two wonderful drivers who every day took us up onto the mountain. And it was about half an hour, three quarters of an hour off road to actually get to the mountain. It gave you some idea of the toughness of the terrain and I know you've been down there yourself, you've experienced that and it's incredible that people achieved what they did in battle over that terrain. But we had the great privilege of spending the best part of 10 days, days off aside with field trips elsewhere, with two veterans of the battle on the battlefield itself. And as a conflict archaeologist, this for

me was a huge achievement because as far as we're aware, Tim and I, this is the first time that veterans of a battle have taken part in the archaeological survey of their own battlefield. So it's a real step up from Waterloo Uncovered, where the battle was 200 years ago. Would you be happy to share being out there, and before we talk about the battle, the effect it had on them? Yes, we built up a huge rapport. They both went through the mill, they were both in the front line, and Jim Peters was, towards the end of the battle, selected to assist with stretcher bearing, taking the wounded back from the east end of the mountain, the Stanley end,

back to the regimental aid post at the western end, which is where the attack began. And while he was carrying a stretcher over a long distance, Argentine mortar fire came in and hit the stretcher party. Two were killed instantly. I think eight were wounded. And Jim was one of them. He thought at first he'd lost his leg. He was then taken to the regimental aid post. And things looked a bit grim as far as his leg was concerned.

That was the end of his war. He received the amazing medical attention that was concerned. That was the end of his war. He received the amazing medical attention that was available. He recovered from that, but clearly that trauma has stayed with him. But he has been back. This was the fourth time that Jim had been back to the Falkland Islands since 1982. John Litterick, his comrade, was a different story. John wasn't wounded but was traumatised by his experiences and had tried to get back to the islands on several occasions, once getting as far as Bryce Norton Airport before turning back and going home. But the point was that because of the network that we'd set up and the support that we had available,

John made the trip this time. But on that first day, when we made our first trip up to the mountain, I was in the second Land Rover and the lead Land Rover that John was in stopped and he got out of the vehicle and just stood looking at the mountain. The mountain is a phenomenal piece of geology. It's this huge linear quartz outcrop running east to west. It's well over a mile long and the battle was fought over its entire distance. And he's just stood there with his back to me. I just took a photograph. My knee-jerk reaction was that his single figure with the mountain in the background made an interesting composition.

And what I didn't realize was that when he turned around to me, he actually said he didn't know whether he could go on. He got that far. He traveled 8,000 miles to the islands and was stood in front of the mountain and literally facing his demons. And we all got out of the Land Rover, the team. We had a conversation. We're very supportive. And within 15 minutes, we were back in the Land Rover and going up the mountain. And we started our first day's work, which was basically John and Jim giving us a guided tour of their part of the battlefield. And it was a phenomenal experience. And by the end of the day, John, who had almost turned back at that point,

turned around to me and said, I can't believe I'm here and engaging with you and the mountain and my past and my trauma in this way. And it was a hugely positive experience for them. But that's not to say it was easy. There were times on the mountain when they would have flashbacks to the events of 1982. But they came through it. And they were our guides showing us around the left flank approach through the stone run, through the positions that they fought. And it was then that we started to think it would work, that having them seriously involved in the project, not just as passengers, they were operating as archaeologists, but archaeologists with unique insight into the past that we were looking at. So we had this incredibly powerful meeting of the past and the present. We spent about eight days, hard work,

identifying sites, so fortifications, Argentine fortifications, debris dropped during the battle, cartridge cases, all sorts of material. And we mapped it. And the point was that archaeology brings a baggage with it. And it took me a while with the Falklands government to actually persuade them that no, just because I was an archaeologist, I wasn't there to dig holes. The great thing about, as far as conflict archaeology is concerned with the Falklands War is that a lot of the material is still on the surface, but it's disappearing. A lot's been taken away as trophies. A lot of it is actually just decayed. The iron rusts to nothing. 40 years is a fairly long time in that extreme environment. And so I think the time is now to catch what is left before a lot more

disappears. And it was a real eye-opener. I'd been back, I think, three times prior to that. This was my fourth trip. But it was just a huge privilege to visit, revisit that battlefield on a daily basis and get to know it and feel your way around it. And it was a great example of you can read all the history books you want with maps and photographs and descriptions of this platoon went here, that unit went there. You can't understand it until you're on the ground. And if we'd been there just as a bunch of historians and archaeologists, we wouldn't have learned half of what we learned having veterans of the battle with us. And I think they learned a lot about their experience as well, because obviously memory is a strange beast. Tony, can I ask, on the survey,

you mentioned mapping. So you guys, every day, you're just combing that landscape and any artefacts you find, any emplacements or defences, you're just marking up on the map and creating a complete record of the archaeology. Exactly. That was the idea. There are sketch maps of various locations, but we were finding stuff that we weren't aware of, some of which we're still doing historical research on. But for instance, we found a very long line of Argentine dug features, dugouts, stretching from the south foot of Mount Tumbledown across the valley floor

or the saddle floor up to Mount William, which is to the south of Tumbledown. And I think we counted something like 50 or 60 of these features. But these were phenomenal dugouts that we surveyed in detail. And we had Stu Eve with us, who's a genius as far as recording techniques are concerned. Once he'd recovered from COVID in the UK, but when Stu got out, he had with him drones. So he was taking photographs with drones. These are tiny ones. And I was amazed, as you've been there, you know, that you never escape from the wind in the Falkland Islands. And he was flying these things in the wind and taking photographs of the features on the ground. He also had with him a laser scanner, this gizmo that shoots laser beams at the ground or rock or whatever and creates a hugely

accurate 3D model. And so using photogrammetry and this laser scanning, we started to build a computer model of the features that we were looking at. And this is really exciting because this is the first time. This is the first time this material has been treated in this way, subject to survey. But the point was that there's a lot there. This is just one battle and it was one small part of that battlefield. We were there to prove that this works, to demonstrate that the techniques will work because it's a very difficult terrain. There are crags and rocks everywhere, very difficult to record, but the technology we have now allows us to do that. Now, I was just thinking back to the decade, I wrote a report for the Falklands government after my first visit in 2012, which was basically, you know, we could do this, we could do

this, we could do that. But I don't think at that point, this would have been possible because the technology wasn't there. Drone technology has improved phenomenally, laser scanning survey has developed and become accessible. So I think it's only now, 40 years later, we've actually got the techniques in place and the technology where we can start to do that. It's really very exciting. In fact, the regimental aid post, this huge overhanging rock where Jim was treated before being taken away in a helicopter, we recorded that. And what we want to do, part of our remit, Tim had brought Doug in as the artist, is to engage with the local community. And we had volunteers out working with us on the battlefield, but also to pass on knowledge, knowledge exchange.

And Jim and John, I mean, John, who went from getting out of Land Rover before he got to the mountain going, I'm not sure I can go through with this, is now desperate to get back and be a part of the team again. So what I would love to do actually is for us to take Jim and John back as kind of mentors and maybe take another couple. The point is that this has to remain small because of the pressures, because of the need to get to know one another. And I think it was Jim described it as a family. It can't grow into something like Waterloo Uncovered. I mean, when we're in Waterloo Uncovered in Belgium, there's over 100 people there and we maybe have 30 veterans. There just isn't the capacity because of the intensity of the experience to do that in the Falklands. It's obviously also a bit more

expensive to get to given it's 8,000 miles away. You're listening to Dan Snow's History, talking about the anniversary of Tumbledown. More coming up. Over on the Warfare podcast by History here, we bring you brand new military histories from around the world each week twice a week we release new episodes with world-leading historians expert policy makers and the veterans who served from the greatest tanks of the second world war and so what are you actually trying to get out of your tank you're trying to get maneuverability and you're trying to get a really big gun your tiger and your pamper there to dominate the battlefield primarily on the eastern

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Wherever you get your podcasts. Let's come on to the battle itself and what you learned about the landscape and talking to those two gentlemen. Could you take us through how that battle unfolded and what insights you've got? The British land on the western side of East Falkland on the 21st of May, and we've just been through the anniversary of hitting the beaches at San Carlos Water. And then there are battles like Goose Green, which is the first big set piece with Tupara. But then the British advance over the 40 or 50 kilometres of terrain to the area around Stanley, which is where the final battles were fought. Like Tumbledown, which is probably the biggest of these features. Mount Kent's the highest, but Tumbledown is massive. But then you've got Mount London to the north,

you've got Mount William, you've got Mount Harriet. Then closer in, you've got Wireless Ridge, which was the last battle with Tupara in their second engagement, and Sapa Hill. So there's a kind of ring of natural defences. And because of the nature of the geology, these outcrops, they're natural fortifications, very difficult to take if they're being defended. Over the last few days of the campaign, the Argentines surrender on the 14th of June. So they're there for 74 days before surrender in Stanley. Mount Longdon is fought on the 11th and 12th of June. And then Tumbledown, which is to the south, is the night of the 13th and into the 14th. And the point is that most of these battles were fought at night.

The British Army was very good at night fighting. It gave them an edge over much better prepared Argentine positions. They dug in, they created sangas out of the rocks. Where the earth was deep enough, they made dugouts. And so very challenging objectives. And it was down to 2nd Battalion Scots Guards, along with the Gurkhas. There were some Royal Marines attached. But in the main, taking the main objective, it was the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards.

And as I've said, Major John Kisley was leading left flank company. They flew in from the south where they'd landed by ship. They advanced around two miles of open ground to the western end of Tumbledown. It was a three company attack. So G company was given the first objective, which is an area of rocky terrain at the western end of Tumbledown. They were given that as the objective, which they took. The Argentines had basically left by the time they arrived. There wasn't much opposition there. They'd retired onto the main feature behind. And then once that objective was secured, which G Company did, left flank company under John Kisley, which included our guys, Jim and John, was to go around the southern flank of this long feature

and attack up towards the centre and move along the top. And they found very heavy resistance, largely from four platoon. The Argentine troops on Tumbledown were a mix of conscripts and professional soldiers, and they were Marines. It was the 5th Marine Infantry Regiment, and these were tough soldiers. And left flank platoon in among the rocks and the boulders were fighting 4th Platoon of Argentine Marines in a very, very tough battle. And as I said, in the dark, feeling their way through terrible weather conditions. It started to snow through the night. It's just impossible to imagine, even when you fall off a rock, just scrambling over it.

But it's impossible to imagine the reality. And it was up close and personal. It was bayonets. It was grenades. A very brutal fight. But it goes on and on and on. And it goes through the night. And at one point, there's a lull. Jim was goes on and on and on. And it goes through the night. And at one point,

there's a lull. Jim was a jimpy gunner. He fired the general purpose machine gun, a heavy belt fed weapon that provided infantry support. And so he was touting this thing up and down this mountain. And at one point, there's a lull in the fighting because they can't go forward. And we climbed up this rock. And Jim said, I ran up here. There's a sloping rock the fighting because they can't go forward. And we climbed up this rock and Jim said, I ran up here. There's a sloping rock. He calls it the charging rock. And he ran up this with his general purpose machine gun. And I was there with my camera video. I got a couple of members of our team, Katie and Rod, to recreate this run and they could barely get to the top. And he'd done it with a general purpose machine gun and all of his ammunition. But then when we got to the top of that, there's a kind of little shelter, an overhang.

He starts scrabbling around. And I'm going, Jim, what are you doing? He said, I'm looking for my curry. And I went, what? He said, well, there was a lull in the fight. We got up here and we rested and I ate a curry from my rations. And so I thought, this is it. My work here is done. I've got a veteran of Scots Guards looking for the archaeological remains of the curry that he ate in the middle of the Battle of Tumbledown. But it's an expression and a demonstration of how long these battles were all the way through the night. And at one point, it's John Kisley, who is awarded for his bravery and leadership here, leading from the front, he says, left flank, are you with me? And eventually the cry comes in, you know, Glaswegian or whatever,

aye, sir, we're effing with you. And then everybody says aye, and they follow him in. One of the stories that Jim and John told me was that some bright spark, you have to be old enough to remember the advert. But when he says, are you with me? Somebody sparks up, no, we're with the Woolwich, which was an old TV ad for an insurance company. But when he says, are you with me? Somebody sparks up, no, we're with the Woolwich, which was an old TV ad for an insurance company. But that's the sort of camaraderie in the thick of battle. And they advanced through these positions again. There are only seven of them, including Kisley, and Jim was among them that actually got to the Eastern Summit that was their objective. And some of them were wounded there. And it's from there that actually got to the eastern summit that was their objective.

And some of them were wounded there. And it's from there that Jim went to be a stretcher bearer. John was fighting further down. So left flank under Kisly take their objective, but Dawn's coming. And then it's right flank's job to pass through them. A lot of these battles, the units kind of leapfrog over one another once objectives are taken. So we've had G Company, then we've had Left Flank Company, now it's Right Flank Company, who come through to take it right the way to the western end and push the Argentines off. But eventually, along with the intervention of the Gurkhas, who have come along the north side

of Tumbledown, but their real objective was William, this mountain to the south, the Argentines start to retreat. The 6th Infantry Regiment comes up. It's one of their companies comes up, or platoons, in a counterattack to reinforce. And it's those guys rather than the Marines that right flank company are fighting towards the end. But then they start to retreat for platoon who fought incredibly hard, these Argentine Marines, against left-flanked Scots Guards. They actually surrender. And by then, it's all starting to break down for the Argentines. Mount William is kind of abandoned, and they move on to Sapper Hill Marines,

and the Gurkhas move along that flank. And the retreat, I once heard Chawndler, who took over from H. Jones when he was killed at Goose Green, famously Pursuant VC, and Chawndler was there at the end on Wireless Ridge and he said the most amazing thing you will ever see in war is an army in full retreat. This would be back in 2012 at a conference and Julian Thompson piped in and said,

somebody had to rugby tackle you to the ground because you were striking a silhouette on the skyline. But he was just so entranced by this entire Argentine army retiring into Stanley. And the nightmare scenario was that they would have made a stand in Stanley with urban fighting and the resulting civilian casualties. But fortunately, common sense won out and they surrendered on the 14th of June of 1982. So Tumble Down is a major battle. But when we look at the longevity of conflict and World War I or World War II, these battles are very small, the kind of company strength. So they're relatively small numbers of men engaged, but they're so brutal because of the nature of the defences and the terrain and the climate and everything else that they do stand out as striking examples of human conflict.

Well, thank you for that. And thank you for all the insights into what it's like going back with those veterans. It's absolutely extraordinary, Tony. Thank you. How do you want people to learn more about what's going on? extraordinary, Tony. Thank you. How do you want people to learn more about what's going on? I started this some time ago, but I'm now running it with my PhD student who's a Falklands veteran. He was a helicopter engineer, William Spencer, and we're running a thing called War Diary F82. So if you just follow us on that, we give daily updates on what's happening today, 40 years ago. We put up original documents and photographs and such like,

and we've got a lot of veterans following us now and putting up their own memories. It's really quite special, and we pushed 13,000 followers. I know in the press there have been worries about the Falklands War being a forgotten conflict, you know, from kind of both sides, but certainly our experience is there's a lot of interest. Definitely. I couldn't agree more, Tony, but partly because of all the hard work you're doing, man. So thank you for that, as ever. It's always so inspiring hearing the stuff you're working on.

We'll see you again soon. Thanks, Dan. Take care, mate. I feel we have the history upon our shoulders. All this tradition of ours, our school history, our songs, this part of the history of our country, all work on and finish. Thank you for making it to the end of this episode of Dan Snow's History. I really appreciate listening to this podcast. I love doing these podcasts. It's a highlight of my career. It's the best thing I've ever done. And your support, your listening is obviously crucial for that

project. If you did feel like doing me a favour, if you go to wherever you get your podcasts and give it a review, give it a rating, obviously rating obviously a good one ideally then that would be fantastic and feel free to share it we obviously depend on listeners depend on more and more people finding out about it depend on good reviews to keep the listeners coming in really appreciate it thank you you