Dan Snow's History Hit - Fall of the Berlin Wall

Episode Date: November 9, 2022

On November 9th, 1989, 33 years ago to the day, the Berlin Wall that had symbolised the ideological and physical division of Europe came crumbling down. We remember this in the West as a triumph of Democracy and the beginning of a new, post-Cold War world. But was it that clear cut for the people whose lives were most closely touched by this momentous occasion? How did people in Germany respond to events as they unfolded? For this special anniversary episode, Dan is joined by four people who experienced the 9th of November first-hand and hears their unique perspectives on the events of that day.This episode was produced by James Hickmann and edited by Dougal Patmore.If you'd like to learn more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad-free podcasts and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe to History Hit today!To download the History Hit app please go to the Android or Apple store.

I know that over the years, many of you have seen the pictures and news clips of the wall that divides Berlin. But believe me, no American who sees firsthand the concrete and mortar, the guard posts and machine gun towers, the dog runs and the barbed wire, can ever again take for granted his or her freedom or the precious gift that is America. That gift of freedom is actually the birthright of all humanity. And that's why, as I stood there, I urged the Soviet leader, Mr. Gorbachev, to send a new signal of openness to the world by tearing down that wall. The famous words of President Ronald Reagan, expressing a sentiment that we're all very familiar with, that the infamous regime in the East should inevitably give way to the freedoms

of the West. But when it came down to it, when the Berlin Wall was indeed torn down and Germany changed forever, was it that simple to the people most closely touched by it? What is the legacy of this event in the eyes of those who lived in Germany at the time? We're going to find out, but first we should take a step back and situate ourselves in the confusing twists and turns of Cold War history. On the 9th of November 1989, just over a month since anti-government protests in the East German cities of Dresden, Leipzig and East Berlin, the Berlin Wall that symbolised the division of East and West came crumbling down. A nervous East German government spokesman had mistakenly announced during a press conference that citizens of the German Democratic Republic, that's East Germany, would be allowed to travel freely without restrictions, effective immediately.

As the news spread, crowds of Berliners flocked to the city's major border crossings from both sides. East German border guards were overwhelmed by the unexpected throngs of excited citizens and for a moment it looked as if things might turn ugly. Fortunately for everyone, the unprepared border guards instead decided to open the gates and allow people to begin what was for many their first journey out of the GDR. The Iron Curtain had been well and truly pulled down. 33 years later to the day, you can still visit the ruins of parts of the Berlin Wall. The remnant and rubble of the divide between East and West, socialism and capitalism. For this anniversary episode, I've got snapshots into what life was

like on both sides of the wall and what it meant to people of different backgrounds, professions and world views. We have a Western diplomatic perspective describing what it meant to people of different backgrounds, professions and worldviews. We have a Western diplomatic perspective describing what it was like to be acutely aware that every day peace in Europe was on a knife's edge. We hear the perspective of a West German who, along with his film crew, was torn between covering events and getting involved. I stood between those pillars which were, and I looked up and there was the noise and die Mauer ist weg, die Mauer ist weg, the wall has fallen. And I suddenly broke into tears.

We have the impressions of a now internationally acclaimed archaeologist who presents the events as they unfolded as she was then through the eyes of a young East German teenager. And the insights of an East German rocker and lead singer who describes what it was like to pursue a career in music in the GDR and the unified Germany that followed. You could smell the smell of revolution. It was part of a revolution, I could say. And everybody was really excited and in a good mood

and everyone could feel that something will change. You listen to Dan Snow's history, you might have noticed that we got a cool new look for the podcast. I've been gracefully aged in the portrait, so I'm totally relaxed about that. And today, today, folks, we're debuting our new theme music. I'm messing about. I love this new music.

It really emphasises the drama, the sense of the extraordinary in the moments that we talk about on this podcast. We'd love to know what you think. Let us know. Get in touch with us on social medias. But in the meantime, let's take a trip back to a divided Berlin

and one of the most important moments of the 20th century. T minus 10, 9. First atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima. 8, 7. God bless you all. 20th century. Go to war with one another again. And lift off. And the shuttle has cleared the tower. First up, we have James Bindernagel, or JD. He's a retired US ambassador. Over the last, well, several decades, he has undertaken military, diplomatic and academic postings across East, West and then United Germany.

He was stationed in East Berlin as Deputy Chief of Mission at the US Embassy in 1989, and had a unique perspective on the diplomatic build-up and aftermath of this day. J.D., thank you very much for coming on the podcast. My pleasure, Dan, absolutely. How long were you in Berlin and Germany, and what was your job or your jobs there? Well, first of all, I came 50 years ago as an army officer for the 3rd Infantry Division during the Cold War. I came back as a diplomat and served four times in three Germanys. That would be West Germany, East Germany,

United Germany, and then came back now as a professor at Bonn University for the last eight years. So what was your job in 1989? You served served, as you said, in Berlin, East, West. What was your job in 89, just before the war came down? In 1989, I was the deputy ambassador. Richard Barclay was the ambassador. That was my job, to oversee the political and economic reporting and run the embassy. So you're in East Berlin. Right. Did you feel change coming? So we all

intellectually knew that there was change. We saw solidarity for the last 10 years coming in, and there was change blowing in the wind, but we didn't know exactly what was happening. But things started happening very rapidly from May 7th, when there were municipal elections in Berlin, and they were challenged by people on the streets, and then there were demonstrations. And then there was the Tiananmen Square attack in China, in Beijing, on June 4th, and things became unraveled. So, I mean, everything was happening so fast, and we couldn't keep up with it. What was your analysis of why the grip of those totalitarian states was weakening in those communist Eastern European countries? those totalitarian states was weakening in those communist Eastern European countries?

Well, it was absolutely critical that the Soviet Union under Gorbachev was trying to make a change. As an American, I look at it from what Roosevelt was doing in the 30s to save capitalism. It's kind of a parallel to what Gorbachev was trying to do with his so-called restructuring of perestroika and glasnost, openness, trying to save the Soviet Union and its system, but by doing so underestimated the willingness of people to go along with it. And the legitimacy always rests with the people. So when you have that kind of a change, you have a challenge to the existing government. That's really the dynamic that was happening. If you lose control of the people,

then you don't have the backup that you need to keep your legitimacy based on military. It must have been intoxicating visiting young organizers. And that was your job, right? You had to work out what was going on. Yeah, there was actually the very beginning was with a friend of mine, Thomas Kruger, who I met in Berlin in May, May 6th, 1989. And he took me to a conspiratorial

apartment where they had a mimeograph machine and they were going to do poll watching for the municipal elections. But that was the kind of excitement that they were. They were very brave to do this, but they were committed to do that. And it was very exciting to see them being successful and not being crushed. You know, there was always a question of, would there be military intervention to put them down? You were a man whose job it was to do U.S. interference from outside. Did you feel, were you actively contributing? No, actually, in the East German case, they were way ahead of us.

We were running behind what they were doing. They had come out to the position where there were so many people fleeing. In the case of East Germany, they had no future. When you lose hope, it's not outside interference. It's the relationship that they have with their governments. What did you feel that night when you said you were on your way home? Did you go home, or did you turn that car around and join the crowd? No, I figured there was a television camera across the bridge. And so I said, it's on television.

That's the best place to see what's happening. And sure enough, I went home. I called the ambassador. He was asleep, actually, just gone to bed. I said, Dick, you got to get up. This is happening. I called West Berlin. Harry Gilmore was our minister in West Berlin. And I said, Harry, I told you earlier that they're going to have visitors, but it looks like they're all coming tonight. This is amazing. Then I called the White House and the State Department Operation Center. Were you positive or were you nervous checking out those Soviet troop concentrations in their barracks, worrying about the fact this could be still stamped out? So we weren't really always sure that Gorbachev's order that they would stay on their barracks was true. So we had to deal with issues like in that little town of Buch, outside of Berlin there.

Apparently, the mayor had talked about moving a Soviet-era tank somewhere else. And of course, the report came back that the Germans had attacked a Soviet tank. Such rumors are what we had to deal with. At one point, we saw the Betriebskampfgruppen there, like the National Guard, the people that were armed and came out on the streets. And then shortly after, the East Germans had called them back. And so, yeah, we had to run errors and rumors down and see what was happening.

If the Soviets or the East German government had tried to do a 56 or a 60, you know, and Hungary or Czechoslovakia in 68 and had started machine gunning people, what was your little box? You know, you broke the glass and you took out the instructions from the box. Would it have been just to stand by and watch?

Or were things different this time? Would the US have intervened more robustly? The real question would be whether or not the Soviets had actually attacked West Berlin, where we had military forces, because that would then trigger NATO's Article 5. For us, we were only hoping that they'd go around us because we had no way to defend anything. So the sad truth is, had the Soviets done what Putin no doubt hoped, you would have had to stand by and watch this uprising stamped out. That's right.

Do you now know, have you gone back, have you talked to senior Soviets in the military and politics? I'm sure you have. Have you chatted about what was the debate within that? Or was it pretty clear they were always going to let East Germany go? No, there was no interest in letting East Germany go until the developments came to the point where Gorbachev couldn't afford it because he was also fighting with Honecker. Honecker was a Stalinist and did not want to give up and Gorbachev wanted Glasnost and Perestroika. So they had an internal problem. And that was why in Leipzig, the local people sided with Gorbachev. And that's why people started cheering Gorbachev,

especially in West Germany. But he was the one that kept his troops on the ground and didn't unleash them. Looking back, did it feel historic at the time? And looking back, do you think your feelings were justified? Oh, absolutely. There was no question it was historic. My whole life was Western.

Germany was oriented for the West and the East was East. And you were seeing it disintegrating. And as it disintegrated, you only worried about the breakout of war. But then it turned to how you resolve this. And the ability of the East Germans to host a fair and free election was really crucial. What are your reflections all these years later, looking back on having been privileged to witness history happening at first hand? It must be something you cherish. It is. I was 39. And, you know, it is the high point of our life.

I've talked to some British diplomats who were in Berlin in 1989. And they feel that they were able to move the needle a bit. They feel they prevented potentially nasty events happening. Did you feel at any stage in your career as a diplomat that you, well, did you help to avoid nuclear war? Or does the individual matter in history? The individual does matter. And we can say when you're a soldier and you're on the lines with other 368,000, that's a small effort you can make. But when you're sitting there in East Germany with just a few people, you can make a lot of difference. Thank you very much. What a place to end it. Ambassador, thank you very much for coming on the podcast.

Dan, my pleasure and good luck. Some really unique insights there into what was going on behind the scenes at the very top of international diplomacy. But of course, for most people, the fall of the Berlin Wall wasn't so much a culmination of diplomatic events, but instead it was a spontaneous, sometimes terrifying occurrence that fundamentally changed their lives forever. Next, I'll be speaking to West German Clifford Fullerton, who was at the time a recent graduate working for ABC News. Cliff and his film crew were right there in the fray at the Brandenburg Gate, and he joins us now to tell us how that day played out for him. Cliff, thank you very much for coming on the pod. Thank you for having me. What was it like growing up in a divided Germany? Was it scary? Was it sad? Well, I was born in Berlin and I moved back in the mid-80s to study here. And being

in Berlin in the 80s as a student was extremely exciting. It was a vibrant city with a unique atmosphere. Berlin being a Western city in the middle of the East during the Cold War and it was surrounded by a border, a lethal border, which made Berlin basically an island. So it was exciting. Did you sort of believe that the Cold War would go hot and the flashpoint might be Berlin? Was that a scary thing? Not really. There was always this feeling that, of course, West Berlin was a sort of front in the East, but we never actually did believe that the Cold War would turn hot. And tell me about the day of days. You're an extraordinary witness because you were working there. Your job was to be there and find out what was going on. So tell us what you saw.

Well, I had just finished an internship with ABC News in Frankfurt. ABC is one of the major networks in the US. And they came to Berlin because the ongoing story was East German refugees at that time. Due to Glasnost, the Iron Curtain had begun to partially open and East Germans started fleeing through other countries, mainly Hungary. And ABC News said, hey Cliff, would you like to work for us for a couple of days? And I said, yeah, sure, great. So they assigned me to a camera team and sent us to East Berlin. November 9th, 1989 was basically my first day on the job. On our schedule, we had a press conference for the late afternoon. The cameraman wasn't too fond of having to go to a press conference, but I was rather excited. It was my first press conference. The room was pretty crowded with

Glasnost refugees and everything. I spotted Tom Brokaw was the anchor for NBC News, our competitor. So I took a seat somewhere behind him just to see how he would react. Press conference started and it was boring. Günter Schabowski of the Politburo. A question here, a statement there. This went on and on. The press conference was scheduled for an hour. And towards the end, Schabowski asked, any more questions? One reporter asked about travel restrictions for GDR citizens. Schabowski was dazzled for a moment and talked about decisions the government had made that day that would ease travel. He reached into his pocket and pulled out a piece of paper.

He started mumbling something about, oh, I thought you knew. He then read out that travel restrictions are lifted and that citizens of the GDR would be free to cross the borders. I remember I heard what he had just said, and I considered that to be pretty important news. And I got a bit nervous. But as I looked around, most of the journalists were very calm. Tom Brokaw was one of the few journalists who actually realized what had just been said. And he turned to his colleagues and said, this is a real story. Now, back in the 80s, camera equipment was huge. Broadcast cameras had tapes the size of paper books with 20 minutes worth of tape, battery packs the size of bricks, and of course, there was no internet. So, what I had to do is take all the tapes we had shot that day and bring them to our

office in the West. I told the camera team we would meet back at the hotel and took off by car. Nowadays, it would be a 15-minute drive from one location to the other, but back then it meant I had to leave one country and enter another one through certain high-security border stations, in this case, Checkpoint Charlie. While going through all procedures, I had the radio on and I heard the first news flashes that came. The stations also weren't too certain what the announcement actually meant, but the longer I drove, the more interpretations I heard. By the time I arrived at the office in the West, the story had really started to unfold. Everyone you met was like, wow, awesome, incredible. So I dropped off the tapes, took some fresh ones and headed back. And the newscasters

became more and more self-secure in announcing that the borders are open again. I crossed Checkpoint Charlie again and drove to the hotel to meet the camera crew, but I didn't find them. Point Charlie again and drove to the hotel to meet the camera crew, but I didn't find them. The 80s, no mobiles, I couldn't call them. So I got back into the car and drove to one of the main border stations, Bornholm or Strasse. By the time I arrived there, the streets leading to the border were already pretty crowded and it seemed like there was a lot of tension back there. Floodlights in the dark, a lot of nervous people, the scenery added to that tension, but something was about to happen. I got nervous again. I had to find my team, my camera team. I drove back to the hotel, banged at the door of the cameraman's room,

and he actually opened. And I yelled at him, the wall has fallen. Come on, grab your stuff. We have to go. Like, really? Now? He looked at me to find out if I was drunk or on drugs, but he quickly realized that there had to be a reason for my excitement. And while he grabbed his equipment, I got ahold of a sound man. We got into the car and drove down the street to Brandenburg Gate, which was pretty close to the hotel. The scenery was incredibly spooky then. Looking from the east, the wall was dark, but there were floodlights on the other side, and we could hear chanting. Many people yelling and singing,

Die Mauer ist weg, die Mauer ist weg, the wall is gone. At that point, some of those people started to climb the wall. We're talking about the wall, the symbol of the Iron Curtain. Many people had lost their lives trying to cross that wall to the west, and now people started climbing it. Those armed guards standing there were the problem. The cameraman, who was actually pretty experienced and had worked in war zones, looked at us and said, we're going over there. I looked at him and said, wait a minute, you know that this is the death strip and you know why it is called the death strip. And I pointed to the soldiers and he said, Cliff, don't worry, I'll turn on the camera light and we will walk that way slowly. And if anyone over there has

a problem with that, they'll let us know. And that is what we did. He turned on the camera light and we will walk that way slowly. And if anyone over there has a problem with that, they'll let us know. And that is what we did. He turned on the camera light, carefully stepped over the fence, followed by the sound man, and very reluctantly followed by me. We walked towards the wall where the singing and shouting was coming from and the border guards did nothing to stop us. and shouting was coming from, and the border guards did nothing to stop us. They were too overwhelmed with the situation and clearly had no plan or orders. This was something they were not trained for, definitely. Now, as we walked, there was this one moment where we passed Brandenburg Gate. I stood between those pillars, which were illuminated, and I looked up, and there was the noise, and die Mauer ist weg, die Mauer ist weg, the wall has fallen. And I suddenly broke into tears.

Now, my grandfather had often told me about war times in Berlin, and my mother lived there in the post-war times, and when the wall was built. in the post-war times and when the wall was built. And now I was standing on the death strip underneath Brandenburg Gate while people were chanting, the wall is gone. But there wasn't too much time for emotion. I had to function pretty much. The camera team was frantically filming the whole time. Meanwhile, people had started not only to climb up the wall from the west, but to jump down into the east, into East Berlin.

I was pretty nervous. There were soldiers there who basically had the orders to shoot if the border is violated. And this was a massive violation of the border. The situation became pretty unpredictable. Would they just stand by watching people climb over the wall? Would someone open fire? And we were on the eastern side, not knowing what would happen. I began storing all 20-minute tapes we had shot, at first underneath my sweater. And when there were more, I brought them to the car and I hid those tapes in various places because I was afraid something might happen.

People would try to confiscate our camera or equipment. And then I suddenly saw a friend, a school friend. He had just climbed the wall with his girlfriend. And there they stood. And there was my chance to get the tapes across to the West after exchanging a few words. I asked them if they could climb back over the wall with the tapes, drop them off and tell them that we agreed on 100 Deutschmarks for the job. And that's what they did. And it worked. We were still there and the situation was unpredictable. And suddenly there was movement among the soldiers. Obviously, they had received some sort of orders, and indeed,

suddenly there was a voice coming through a loudspeaker, for your own safety, please leave the place at Brandenburg Gate. Soldiers moved in and began positioning along the wall. So, uh-oh, what was going to happen now? What we didn't know at this time was the other border crossings had already lost control of the situation. At Bornholmer Straße, so many people had gathered demanding to pass. There was one guy in charge that border post and people started flooding from the east to the west. Meanwhile, the guards at Branton Brigade only had one intention, clearing that area and prevent people from climbing the wall. So they brought in a water cannon. Thank goodness, the only thing fired that night was water. So the people climbed back over. The soldiers were gaining control of the situation.

And there was one point where they were back in charge. Brandenburg Gate was sealed off and we were now on the other side of that little fence. So that was a very strange, very, very strange night. And I hadn't realized what that would mean for the future of reunification and everything that would come. Looking back now, is it very special to have been there, that hinge point of history? It was one of the moments of my life that I will always remember. Being there at the press conference, a scene that you always see on TV every year regularly, and knowing that I was there at the press conference, and also knowing that I was

there under Brandt Burgate when it all happened, that was an emotional night. That was the night of my life, more or less. This is Dan Snow's History Hit. More after this. A hundred years ago, one of history's greatest discoveries ever was made in the Valley of the Kings. The tomb of Tutankhamun was found, intact with thousands of treasures.

And this month on the Ancients from History Hit, we're exploring how a discovery transformed a boy king from minor Egyptian monarch into immortalised ancient ruler. Join me, Tristan Hughes, every Thursday on The Ancients from History Hit as we delve into the life and legacy of Tutankhamen, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Matt Lewis. And I'm Dr. Alan Orjanaga.

And in Gone Medieval, we get into the greatest mysteries. The gobsmacking details and latest groundbreaking research from the greatest millennium in human history. We're talking Vikings, Normans, kings and popes, who were rarely the best of friends, murder, rebellions,

and crusades. Find out who we really were by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit wherever you get your podcasts. A big thank you to Cliff Fullerton, giving us a play-by-play of events as they unfold on the ground, in the thick of it, at the Brandenburg Gate. Joining us now is Daniela Rosnau. She's a friend of the podcast. She's a world-class Egyptologist and archaeologist.

In 1989, Daniela was a young teenager growing up just outside East Berlin. And she joins us to explain how significant this event was to her life and the lives of other East Berliners. Daniela, thanks for coming on the pod. Yes, hello. It's nice to be with you here. So you grew up in socialist East Germany. Tell me, what was that like? Well, it was an experience that obviously very much shaped me and it had good and bad sides to it. Good sides where I had quite a protected childhood.

But yeah, it had bad sides as well, of course. Like the fact that you couldn't leave the country, for instance. As a child, what did you notice about the sort of authoritarian government intruding into your life, not being able to travel? Were there other things that struck you as a young person? Well, no, because I mean, most of the time, I think in general, parents try to keep this away from children, at least until a certain age when it was necessarily to talk about it. You learned Russian in school, presumably? Oh yeah, we all had to learn Russian. I started learning Russian when I was eight. And what about, how old were you when

the wall fell? I had just turned 13 when the wall fell and I remember the night, or more to the point the days after, very well. Were you politically aware at 13? Were you aware of the changes going on around you in Eastern Europe in the build-up that? Yes. I mean, obviously, we had followed this very closely on the television for many, many months and we saw what was happening in Hungary. But it was still a surprise when it really happened. Were your family and your network community, was it largely excited about what was going on or was there nervousness? I think especially in the beginning, everyone was really, really excited. My family had a certain background of, you know, not always being extremely confirmed to the system. So it was definitely perceived as something very positive in my family. So there was excitement in the days leading up to it?

Yes, but more to the point in the days just after the wall came down, obviously, because until the very last second, you couldn't expect this to happen. And as we know now, it all was an accident, really. It was never planned like this. Was there a trigger? Was there a moment that when you heard, and what was that? Was it hearing about the travel ban being lifted? Was it hearing about people on the wall? What was your moment of realisation? of realization? I mean, actually, you know, this all happened on a Thursday night. And strangely, on that evening, my parents were out, and I didn't even watch the news. So I went to bed without realizing what was going on around me. And then the next morning, my parents had left and were at work as well. And I was on my own. And when I turned on the television, obviously, I saw what had happened last night in Berlin and saw people on the wall. And although I was only 13, it was very clear to me from the beginning that this is something huge happening that could

potentially change my life forever. Although in the first days, of course, we couldn't be sure that, you know, this whole decision wouldn't be returned. Was the action in Berlin or was it all along the wall? Were there scenes going on outside the city as well? What was your first interaction with what was going on physically? Well, I think it was mainly going on in Berlin. So we lived about an hour away from Berlin. And so on that Friday, I only saw things on television. But of course, everyone wanted to be in Berlin because that's where the war was on, you wanted to be and go to the West End side. So everyone was basically flooding to Berlin. And me and my parents did this on a Saturday because we didn't expect the situation to last.

We didn't trust that. So we decided to try it on the first possible day on that Saturday and crossed the Oberbaumbrücke to West Berlin. But that's quite dramatic, excepting that you might have got stuck there. So potentially you left your life behind or... No, no, it was very clear that you were always allowed to go back, obviously. So that was never a danger. Okay. I personally, I just found it more dangerous

to lose my parents because there were obviously thousands of people. And especially when you have these small checkpoints or in my case, a bridge, you have to make sure not to lose your parents because obviously you're just a child. And so there was a big crush. Was it quite intimidating, quite scary for you?

No, not necessarily scary. Obviously, I wanted to be on my parents' hand, not to lose them, but everyone was actually really excited. And we just wanted to see how it looks like on the other side. And then at least for my family and then just go back home. Oh, OK. So it was just a fun opportunity, a sightseeing trip.

Yes, of course, we really wanted to see the other side. Of course, we also wanted to buy certain things because, you know, we were craving for nice chocolate. because we were craving for nice chocolate. Or it was the first time I ever bought and ate a yogurt that tasted of maracuja, of passion fruit. We didn't have these things. I still remember every person crossing the border, we got a so-called Vekomsgeld, welcoming money, which was 100 mark per person.

And I remember we spent 70 of them on chocolate and sweets alone and coca-cola because that was something we never had and and we really wanted to try and do you remember what were the scenes do you remember I mean were your parents emotional did they see friends family that they hadn't seen was there anything no we didn't have family in west berlin and obviously at this point there was no way you could go anywhere else to western germany on like the regular border we had family in western germany but not in west berlin no it was more emotional my mom really wanted to go to the dechniskirche so that's this memorial church close to zoo station and the zoological Garden, which was in ruins.

Of course, you know, it was ruined from the Second World War. And my mom wanted to go there. But it was all, I think everyone was genuinely excited and very, very positive about it. We were welcome. You know, no one hugged us, but you were, metaphorically speaking, welcomed with open arms. What was your impression as a kid? I mean, apart from all the chocolate sweets, did it feel like a different world or did it feel recognizable?

It was, of course, very much a different world. It looked very different. It smelled very different. But I mean, also because my family, we lived very close to Berlin, we could receive Western television. So we kind of knew what it looked like. In contrast, maybe, to some people living in more remote areas. we get into the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details and latest groundbreaking research from the greatest millennium in human history. We're talking Vikings, Normans, kings and popes who were

rarely the best of friends, murder, rebellions and crusades. Find out who we really were by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit wherever you get your podcasts. Three Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. What's your sense now looking back on the legacy of it? There is no doubt about it for me that this is the single most important event that happened in my life and the best thing that happened in my life. It has completely changed my life and gave me the opportunity to do what I want in life. I mean, you know, two massive aspects of living in the GDR were, of course, that you were not really allowed to leave the country

unless maybe, you know, for a short holiday to another socialist country. And the other big thing was that you couldn't necessarily freely choose your profession if let's say you wanted to study which was the case for me it would have been extremely difficult for me to study anything let alone Egyptology what I eventually ended up studying. Unlike perhaps to foreign observers we think the reunification that's all done and dusted in fact the story is more complicated there's still deep division and the legacies of the

partition are still very much present. It is in certain regions and I think it will still take a while, but I'm quite hopeful that I belong to the last generation of people who still really, really remember. You know, 13 is not a child. You have a proper memory, but

probably everyone who was five at the time won't really remember the division anymore. And so I hope, let's say, with my generation gone, hopefully there won't be, you know, a division in people's head anymore. Daniela Rosser now there giving us a really moving and personal look into the world of her youth and the transition to the Germany that we all now know. Finally, we're joined by Tobias Kunzel, a German composer, musician, and one of the lead singers for the popular German band Die Prinzen. Tobias grew up in Leipzig, and by 1989 he was a committed rocker.

He was performing at a gig as the wall came down. Tobias joins us to tell us about life in the GDR for a musician, and what its collapse meant for East Germans like him. Tobias, how did you access Western music from behind the wall? Interesting question. In some regions of the GDR, you could reach the radio stations from West Germany. If you're in the south of the GDR,

you could reach the Bavarian radio. In Berlin, of course, you could reach the West Berlin stations. In the north, you could reach the Hamburg and Hanover stations. So it was accessible. And the East German radio stations also played West music. They played Die Poppelstaff

and the Rolling Stones and all the popular hits from West Germany. But there was a rule. They had to play 60% of music which came from socialist countries, including the GDR. And 40% have been allowed to play of West music, of British, American and West German music. Except the enemies of the politics, you know, of course. And as a young rocker, did you feel that lack of freedom? Were there frustrations?

I think we were born with the scissors in our minds, you know. We knew exactly how far we could go if we want to stay there and we want to do our jobs. A lot of bands have been forbidden because of the lyrics. There was a jury. When you started playing music and found a band, you had to play in front of a jury. And they decided if you're allowed to go on stage or not. And you have to show them the lyrics.

They didn't listen so much to the music. They had to read the German lyrics you wrote and if they had been okay and not too hard against the government, you've been allowed to go on stage and play. It seems crazy. What do you remember about when things started to change? All changes come slowly, you know. It's not to say from tomorrow it will change.

I think our band, Amor and the Kids, have been one of the first bands who've been allowed to be a little more edgy and could say things directly. And that's something to do with this new German wave, with the new wave stuff, because the lyrics became very straight and not as poetic anymore

as they used to be in the 70s in the GDR. And so people became more brave and then tried to say things louder and louder until they went to demonstrations and tried to change the whole system. But most people didn't want to be a part of West Germany, to be honest. Most people wanted to create a new state,

a new country, a new East German country with a democratic, a real democratic country. And then, you know, the history, then we became a part of West Germany. And now we are complete Germany. I think it's good. It's good for me. And it's good for all. But the main thought wasn't to be a part of West Germany. The main reason was to create something new, something real democratic, with a real democratic chosen government. Where were you when the wall came down? I was playing a gig with my band, actually, with Harmony Kids. And it was in a student's

club. And you could smell the smell of revolution. It was part of a revolution I could say and everybody was really excited and in a good mood and everyone could feel that something will change and we played a gig this night and no one knew what happened and I came back home and my wife said the telly was on and she said look now the wall is open

I said oh that's great next day we went to the town hall and got the stamp in our passports. And then we went off to West Germany just to look how it looks. And the funny thing is, when I arrived in West Germany, I thought I was really cool looking. I had purple trousers and my blonde haircut. And I was walking through this little city. And two children came and they asked me where I do park I'm from East Germany I must come from East Germany I don't know why they

why they realized it but I must have been looking like a typical East German boy and what changed for you was it was it liberating being able to go to the west what changed after that wall came down musically it was really hard for us because suddenly no one was interested in East German bands anymore. They wanted to see the West German bands. And all crap bands from West Germany came over and played gigs for sold out venues. And it took a couple of years until the East German people realized that not all what came from West Germany was as good as they expected or as seemed to be and so then the East German bands came back but it was a hard time for us and I was thinking about quit the job and do something totally

different but my wife again she said to me you know our children should know you how you are you're a musician you're a creative guy and you're not a you're not a used car dealer you are just a musician you should stay a musician so I kept on fighting and yeah I could make it. Some people we've been hearing the older people were a bit nervous about the wall coming down but for you it was a positive thing yeah i was young enough i was young enough and i was successful in east germany but not too successful i wasn't born you know there was known but we haven't been so close to the government they thought of what i mean we didn't have this passport where we could could go anywhere we want

and so it was easier for us to restart after the war came down. Some of the established musicians had a really, really hard time the first five, six, seven years after the war came down. I became a member of an a cappella group, Die Prinzen. We recorded our first album in 1991 in Hamburg with a very famous producer, Annette Humpe. This album, it was released, I think, in June. The first single came in May. It was somewhere in the 40s in the charts. And then we had the top 10 hit the next one. And then it went by itself. It was really successful. So it was, we've been really lucky that it happened to us, but it was not usual for every German musician.

Just very talented. That's it. Thank you. If you say this, okay, thank you very much. I'm not sure, maybe a little talented, but we had the right songs at the right time and we've been at the right place. Everyone that I've talked to says that when the wall came down, visiting the West, it felt like a festival. It felt like a party. It was pretty rock and roll in a way. Was it a very special time, those days, those weeks, following the wall coming down? Of course.

And I think for East Germans, of course, it was a big party. It was a big moment of freedom. We felt like all the chains have been taken from us and we felt really free and was really great to go anywhere, to say everything, to make every joke which is possible and felt really, really like freedom. For East German people, I don't know how the West German people think about it. Maybe the people in Berlin do because it was the divided city. You can't imagine London just split in two parts in in East London and West London, and the East London people are not allowed to go to West London. You can't imagine this,

but it was like this. The West Berlin people haven't been allowed to go to East Berlin, and the East Berlin people haven't been allowed to go to West Berlin without permission. So it was really, really a great moment to see that everything's possible now. Everything seemed to be possible. The truth came a little later when you saw that it's not so easy to be successful in the capitalist world. Tobias Kunzelau, with a truly unique perspective on what it was like to be a musician in the GDR and the united Germany that followed. The fall of the Berlin Wall is one of those great historical

events that encapsulates really a fundamental change in the course of history but for so many of us it remains something that we read about in books or see on the news it's so hard to get a tangible sense for its significance to the individual to understand exactly how multi-faceted something like this can be which is why we're so grateful to our guests for bringing it to life in such a personal way. You've been listening to Dan Snow's History Hit. This episode was produced by James Hickman and mixed by Dougal Patmore. Thanks for listening. Bye-bye. Thank you. you