Dan Snow's History Hit - Family History

Episode Date: June 22, 2020

Simon Pearce, a genealogist from Ancestry.com, joined me on the podcast to reveal the secrets of uncovering family history. Delving into the records of my own grandfather, Simon explained the methods, challenges and excitements he faces on a day to day basis. We also discussed how technology might open up a wealth of information - changing the face of genealogy forever. Subscribe to History Hit and you'll get access to hundreds of history documentaries, as well as every single episode of this podcast from the beginning (400 extra episodes). We're running live podcasts on Zoom, we've got weekly quizzes where you can win prizes, and exclusive subscriber only articles. It's the ultimate history package. Just go to historyhit.tv to subscribe. Use code 'pod1' at checkout for your first month free and the following month for just £/€/$1.

Hi everyone, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. It's funny, people always assume that I'm a massive family historian and then they get kind of suspicious when I say I'm not. I love family history and my grandma told me stories about her relatives, her ancestors. She was Welsh and she was in this wonderful oral historical tradition of just telling stories about those who'd gone before. I'm pretty sure most of them made up, but that's alright. They were lyrical and they gave my sisters and I a sense of our place in history,

who we were, where we were from, the people that had gone before, the sacrifices they'd made, the challenges that they'd faced, the women who sought to go to higher education and faced extraordinary obstacles. And in some way that made us proud of our forebears and more aware of the opportunities that we had at the end of the 20th century beginning of the 21st but i've never gone in for the whole family trees and births deaths and marriages and i think partly because if you love history you don't need the lens of the family to get into it like i'm interested in the polionic war i don't have any ancestors that fought in it or involved

in it i probably do but i don't know about it but i don't have any ancestors that fought in it or involved in it i probably do but i don't know about it but i don't care because i love other people's ancestors they're just as exciting and interesting as mine but for lots of people it is that family connection that personal connection it matters and so i think family history is wonderful i'm also increasingly interested in it as the technology changes i'm able to check these digital archives and databases and build such an extraordinary picture of people, not just elite members of society, but normal people in the past. During VE Day week, I had my family history researched a little bit, particularly to my two grandpas, researched by Ancestry.co.uk.

And they came back and told me some things I didn't even know about my own grandfathers. You know, it's extraordinary. You know, I never met one of them and the other was always a heroic figure to me and had a terrible stroke when I was in my early twenties. And then he died a few years after that. And I talked to him a lot about the stories of the war, but I never actually researched his vessel movements and what actions he might've been involved in during his time in the Battle of the Atlantic. So it was a very special thing. I thought I'd get the very nice guy from Ancestry, Simon Pearce, onto the podcast to talk about family history, talk about his job, talk a little

bit about my grandparents, talk about what we can now find out about our relatives. So yeah, this is a family history episode of this podcast. If you want to go to History Hit TV and check out the world's fastest growing, most dynamic digital history channel, please go and do that. If you use the code POD1, P-O-D-1, you can get a month for free and then your first month for just one pound, euro or dollar. We got hundreds of history documentaries on there. We got hundreds of podcasts on there. And then once a week, we offer our live Zoom live podcast recording. Let me tell you something. Let me tell you something. Next week is going to be quite the live podcast record from a special location you will have heard of this location it's one of the most famous historical

locations on planet earth that's what i'm saying that's what i'm saying so you want to sign up for that check your inboxes everybody you definitely want to sign up for that one in the meantime everybody here is simon pierce enjoy simon thanks so much for coming on the podcast thank you dan lovely to have me on thank you Enjoy. Simon, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you, Zan. Lovely to have you on. Thank you very much. Tell the world what you do. Well, I'm a genealogist for Ancestry Pro Genealogists, and I'm based out of our London office.

And I have the pleasure of every day helping clients to research their family history, break down their brick walls, and really find out where they came from, essentially. Are we living through a kind of upsurge of interest in family history research? And is that essentially because of the internet? Is it easier than ever? Yeah, I'd say so. I think that although the actual research can be very challenging, the access to it is becoming easier. I mean, we have online, there are so many records available now to help you research your family history, which are just absolutely fantastic. And, you know, you can do it from the comfort of your home you can do it on your phone your tablet your laptop and so yeah we are seeing an upsurge as i said the research itself can be very challenging and difficult at

times but the access to the records is getting easier and i think that's what's attractive to people as well you and i talked about this the other day because i'm one of these weird people i'm fascinated by history so i never really needed the hook of family history to get me into the past there's an oral sort of traditional family storytelling about ancestors and things that goes way back. But I'd never really looked into records, into the archives about my grandparents, great-grandparents. And then I did with your help. And I was sort of blown away because for the first time, my grandfather, for example, was lifted from a place where all he was was my wonderful old grandpa to being a human in his own

right he left behind a paper trail he was a you know a naval officer and he was a doctor and I found it showed me somebody that I thought I knew but I actually didn't know. I think it's so interesting you say that because we hear that quite regularly particularly from people that haven't done this kind of research before or maybe aren't too familiar with the records and sometimes you just have a name you know you might not have known a grandparent or a great-grandparent. And then suddenly to discover them in a record, you know, the 1939 register or a census or maybe, you know, a medal card, it adds like another layer to their life that in some respects

you might not have known about that event or that incident unless, you know, somebody in the family told you. And yeah, it really does start to bring it to life. And of course, you know, we would never have met our great-great-grandparents or, you know, ancestors from the 19th century. So to be able to discover, you know, information about their lives through these records, it really, it sounds like a cliche, but it does bring them to life. Especially ancestors I've been researching for, for years and years and years. After a while, you start to feel like you know them and, you know, you just want to discover more and more.

When people come to you, when does your heart lift? One of the things you go, oh, brilliant, I'm definitely going to find some stuff here. Or is it a bit more anarchic and random than that? We help clients with various research requests. So it can be anything from starting with a parent and a grandparent and going back as long as the time allows. Or it can be a really specific problem. Perhaps the early 1800s they found an ancestor that they just hit a brick wall and they're stuck and they need help trying to research this individual. But for me, I mean, personally, I love starting in the 20th century and working back

you know perhaps with a client or even if I'm doing for a friend or family you know starting with their parent or grandparent because you just feel like it's a blank canvas and you start to work backwards and you can make some really good discoveries early on and as I said you can for example hit the 1939 register we've discussed it before but you know it's like the closest thing we have to a census during the second World War. It's taken three weeks into the British declaration of war. I'm starting with that record, you know, finding a grandparent or a parent of a client and saying this is where they were living three weeks into the Second World War. This is what their occupation was, their date of birth, perhaps they were

volunteering as an ARP warden or an ambulance driver. My heart lifts when I start with that record and I start in the 20th century because I really feel like there's so much to discover and it's such an exciting period. Yeah, I agree. I mean, do you want to just quickly tell me what you found out about a couple of my grandparents? Because I was stunned. In my case, you managed to find a couple of things like a photograph from a local newspaper in Canada which featured my grandma as a kind of dutiful naval wife. And it was just brilliant. It was so interesting researching both your grandparents, because your grandfather served during the Second World War, but their stories are very different. So you have your paternal grandfather, John Fitzgerald Snow, who was a professional soldier.

He joined the British Army in the mid-1920s as an officer. He was a career soldier, as opposed to, on the other side, your maternal grandfather, Robert Laidlaw Macmillan. He was studying medicine before the Second World War, and then joins the Royal Canadian Naval Volunteer Reserve in the early 1940s as a volunteer. And it was just so fascinating to see these two different strands. You have one who's a professional soldier, one who's a civilian, essentially. And it was fascinating. I mean, if we go to your paternal grandfather, 1st John Fitzgerald Snow, he passes out of Sandhurst in the mid-1920s and joins the Somerset Light Infantry. And basically, I tracked him using the army lists. I don't know if you've come across these before in your own research or studies, but we have them on Ancestry. Essentially,

they're often half-yearly or quarterly lists for officers of the British Army. It records their promotions, perhaps appointments. It's a really good way of tracking their career. Because basically, when we start this kind of research, we want to get the service record, either from the Ministry of Defence, sometimes it's at the National Archives. But this will give you a blow-by-blow account of someone's service. But in this instance, we were using records online, a shorter time frame. So it was really interesting tracking your grandfather through the army list, his career, looking at his promotions. He had a really interesting career from the early, you know, the mid 1920s right through to the late 1950s.

And it was just really fascinating serving with the Somerset Light Infantry, staff officer with the Chief Imperial General's Staff. I think we discussed before that he was mentioned in dispatches a couple of times. You see, that's the one that we have no record in our family of that. I mean, it's not the highest decoration for valour, but it's a bit of an event. And neither my dad nor his brother had any idea that he's mentioned in dispatches. So that's now a mystery that we're all definitely trying to solve. It's really exciting. Well, it's interesting.

So I'm looking at his recommendation for honours and awards in front of me now i downloaded this via the national archives so he was awarded the cbe and i think it was the 1956 and the queen's birthday honors but it also mentions it kind of backdates and says previous awards and it says mentioned so shorthand for mentioned in dispatches and it says here that 1940 and then in 1946 and 1946 was in connection with a service in burma and it's so tantalizing you know I'm looking at this and I'm thinking well I want to know more you know what was he doing and I essentially I would say get the service record you know make an application to the Ministry of Defence apply for his service record because that should give you some more

meat on the bones as to what he was doing and why he was awarded these mentions. The 1941 I mean I'm looking at the London Gazette now if if anyone's interested, London Gazette is available online and it can tell you promotions of officers as well but it also mentions gallantry and your grandfather's mentioned it. It just says the names of the undermentioned have been brought to our notice in recognition of distinguished services rendered in connection with operations in the field. This is 1940. So there's a little bit of a reference there so I just want to get my hands on the service record now and find out what exactly he was doing. Yeah, see, my dad and his brother didn't know their dad was in the BEF, which I presume in 1940 is where it was, because

I don't think it was in Northeast Africa. So they thought their dad was at home and then deployed to the Indian Ocean, you know, India-Burma later in the war. So it's been quite emotional for those two, this work that you've done for me. You know, I'm really, really grateful. They're now in their 70s and 80s and they didn't know their dad was in the BEF. Now, what that tells you about their relationship with their dad or what it tells you about those veterans returning from war. I never met that grandfather, so I'm unable to kind of take a personal judgment on that.

But yeah, extraordinary stuff. Well, I would love to get my hand on the service record because that would really tell us where your grandfather was serving. I mean, it's not clear yet whether he was serving with the BEF. It just says in connection with services rendered in the field in 1940. It's a really tantalizing reference. We know he was a staff officer, so he could well have been stationed at home and working on operations a logistical side of things so yeah as i said we'll get hold of the service records it's not guaranteed he's with the BEF but we'd have to get the service record on the phone okay so yeah he could have been mentioned for

doing brilliant desk work in the uk could well have been but it certainly says here in connection with operations in the field so and i wouldn't be surprised given the time period there's got to be work with the BEF perhaps the evacuation of dunkirk yeah you'd have thought so wouldn't you definitely amazing and then he went on to fight in Burma and towards the end of the war but the Canadian grandfather I met he was sort of idle to me I spent my summers with him in his farm in Canada and we chopped wood all day and did the bees and mowed the long grass and all that kind of stuff and he never talked about the war apart from just funny anecdotes he would tell amusing stories like they had a grand piano in their wardroom of their converted cruise liner that became a convoy escort vessel and it meant that whenever they were in port they were the destination for

all of the crews of all the other ships they had a wild old time on board there so from your research it told me actually he had been in some fairly tight spots during some of those convoy battles. Land a Viking longship on island shores. Scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt and avoid the Poisoner's Cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed.

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There are new episodes every week. Absolutely. So again, I attract your maternal grandfather. So this is Robert Laylaw McMillan and he was an officer in the Royal Canadian Naval Volunteer Reserve in the Second World War. Looks like he joined up in the early 40s, and I just tracked his promotions and his work through the Navy list. First of all, it looks like he was a surgeon lieutenant, and then later a surgeon lieutenant commander.

But yeah, as you said, stationed at shore stations in Canada and Toronto to start off with, but then seems to have been involved with HMS Prince Robert in convoys in the Mediterranean. I did a little bit of research into the ship and it looks like that they were in a tight spot in the Bay of Biscay at one point. And yeah, we found a almost like an enthusiast site dedicated to HMS Prince Robert. And I had a photo of your grandfather on there as well in his uniform, which was amazing to see, to be able to put a face to the name as well. Yeah, the photographs are very special, aren't they? When when you see a picture it really does bring it all home and then you also found a picture of my grandma who we Welsh we call her nine because she was in North Wales and she was there in some sort of local newspaper in Canada as I say just being a sort of dutiful wife by the looks of it absolutely I mean I always whether it's civilian

kind of research or military I always go newspapers, but they're such an incredible source for research and tell you so much. And first of all, I found a really beautiful picture of your grandparents on their wedding day. There was an article about their marriage and obviously they were more interested maybe in your grandmother and her family background than your grandfather, but they had some really interesting snippets. And then, yeah, as you quite rightly say, there was another article dedicated to your grandmother and the Navy wives of Vancouver Island because they were stationed there because of your grandfather's service. So, yeah, newspapers really did help to bring this to life as well. And actually, I don't know if you had a chance to see, but we also, before getting into the military side of things, I also delved into some civilian records, some censuses. But I also found a couple of interesting references to your grandfather in the University of Toronto yearbooks. a couple of interesting references to your grandfather in the University of Toronto yearbooks. I don't know if you had a chance to look over them but North American Perspective, they are fantastic at keeping yearbooks for high schools and for universities and they contain these lovely like passport photos and they're grouped into categories of study and interests and societies they joined and I have one in front of me now and it's a great picture of your grandfather and it says

Robert Laidlaw Macmillan, university residence was on the Park Plaza and it says that he collects Byzantine pottery and he would like to pioneer canned beer in Canada. Well I think you might have been having a bit of a laugh. Had he pioneered canned beer I think we'd all been fairly well off. He should have stuck with that. Do you particularly enjoy the military research? Is it because it's easier? There's more record keeping or do you find it's a bit of a challenge when it's just looking at civilian life? I enjoy a bit of both, but I have to admit, I love doing military research because the records, not only do they give you a really amazing insight into the military career of an individual,

but the military were great at keeping records. Often when we're carrying out research into civilians, we will look for military records, and there's really great references to the next of kin, to addresses. Perhaps if an individual was pensioned, there'll be references to dresses after the service. I think that military records are a really good cornerstone of our research because they can tell us so much about the individual. And of course, the First and Second World Wars played such a huge part of the 20th century and in the lives of our ancestors that they are really great go-to records. But not just from a military perspective. I mean, people working on the home front,

I mean, the 39 Register is a really good resource for researching home front ancestors, but we've also got the gallantry awards, for example, of individuals commemorated for gallantry during the Second World War. That can be a really good source as well. And so I think military is my go-to. They can just tell you so much about the individual.

When you're researching all these people all day, did it exciting? And do you still come across stories that just blow your mind? Or are you quite inured to it now? I mean, I've been doing the genealogy for about four years and military research for 15. To be honest with you, I still get excited

because every, although there are similarities, every case is different. And you learn so much about different parts of the country. And there's always something that comes up and surprises you. I mean, a couple of years ago, I was helping a gentleman who was an evacuee. He was evacuated from the north of England to the countryside during the Second World War.

And he wanted to help us find descendants of the family that looked after him just to thank them. And because he actually had a good experience, of course, you know, some didn't. But he had a positive experience during his time as an evacuee. And so that for me was really challenging, trying to like trying to find records about evacuees and then track down descendants of the families just so he could write to them and say, thank you for your parents or grandparents that looked after me during the war. So that I got a real buzz from that. So there's still things that pop up that, you know, take me by surprise and shock me and keep me going. Have you done your family history?

I have, I think that's what got me into this. My great great uncle was killed at Gallipoli and that is kind of what hooked me in really. I just kept finding records and I was lucky, you know, there was so much about this individual to discover and, you know, I've done my tree, my wife's, my friends and family's, you know, it's sometimes you need a break. I love this kind of work, it's so interesting but sometimes you have to have a little bit of break and keep it fresh but yeah, there are times when I think, oh, I'll just do half an hour on this ancestor and see where it takes me and then it's 1am and you realise you've been up for hours but yeah, it's still exciting. What is technology going to give us? Are you excited by the DNA stuff? Are we all eventually just simply going to know where we sit in the giant tree of life? We'll

immediately know that person over there is our 10th cousin twice removed and we're all descended from Edward III via some illegitimate line. Is that where we're all going? I do wonder what kind of records people will be looking at in, say, 100 years, you know, whether social media like Facebook and Instagram will be a source that people use to research their ancestors. But I think DNA will have a part in it. I was relatively new to using DNA when I first started at Ancestry,

but I'm getting my head around it more and more as the years go on, and it is an incredible tool. I think as more people take the test and the database grows, that will help immensely. But I think there'll always be a need, I think, more people take the test and the database grows that will help immensely but I think there'll always be a need I think for paper research records you know like a census or a register or a military records I think they will always play a key part but it is intriguing to think what records people will be using in a hundred years time but I no doubt that technology

will be playing a big part because it has already I mean the digitization of records has made life so much easier I mean as a historian or as a researcher, I love going to the archive. I love going to the National Archives and flicking through a war diary or an old record. But you can't always do that. And if someone's in another country, it's not practical. So the digitisation of records is making genealogy far more accessible, I think, maybe easier in some respects. Are there any big archives or records that we know about that are sort of going to drop

in the next few years, are going to have a similar impact to, you know, the gallantry records, censuses, when they landed everyone got terribly excited, or the seam ship manifest? Is there, you know, somewhere in India or something that everyone's waiting for the big drop and it's just going to be another game changer? I think in the coming years the 1921 census will be really helpful because we currently have the 1911 census and the 1939 register. But the in-between period can be a little bit tricky at times. I mean, there are records you can use, but the 21 register will be really helpful.

And I think it'll be fascinating to see what households are like a few years after the First World War and the impact it's had on individuals. So I'm quite excited for that, just to see what households are like really you know see where you know my family were living I think from a military perspective I hope one day there'll be I guess access to Second World War service records like they are for the First World War. First World War we have online we have an ancestry they're an amazing collection but because of data protection understandably Second World War records are still not widely available unless you're the next of kin or unless the personnel has been deceased, I believe. I think it's for 25 years.

So I hope in the future we can have wider access to Second World War service records because that, for me as a military enthusiast, I would love that. Is it true that in the 1980s they just chucked out all the First World War casualty or service records or there was some absolute crime that was committed? From what I've heard, I believe that, I can't remember the decade but the officers service records aspects of them were weeded out the officers service records for the first world war were fantastic but i believe there are many instances where pages were pulped and removed i don't know if that was in the second world war or later well many listeners and yourself may be familiar with the first world war service records for example around about 60% were destroyed or badly damaged during the Blitz in 1940. So you have about a 40% chance of finding a service record.

So a couple of my ancestors I've never found. And I always think, what if, you know, what does that record contain the clues that I'm missing out on? But yeah, you do hear stories of instances like that. Oh, it's time to answer. Is this another question that genealogists always ask? How far back can you get to? I guess it depends on your specialty. I mean I've taken a couple of trees I've worked on to the early 1700s late 16s but it's a real skill. I mean I'm in huge admiration

of my colleagues that can push back into you know the 17th 16th century and learning tips from them and studying is that how you do it but it depends on the coverage of the records. The Church of England parish records can really help you you know baptisms marriages and burials from one county to another um that can really help you to push back that far land records tax records generally when i'm helping a client if you're starting in the 20th century usually obviously there can be some instances where it gets quite tricky but usually you can get into the sort of late 1700s perhaps maybe a bit earlier if you're lucky that's kind of a general rule but as I said parish records can really help you to push back into the 17th century and yeah it can get really tricky

then you need to brush up on latin at times and some of the handwriting can be really tricky and maybe studying paleography would help but yeah it's a challenge yeah it's telling paleography thank you so much for helping me and my family. You've started something, I'm sure you've heard this before, you've started something very interesting, I think, Simon, which is going to run and run. People, I guess, can just go to ancestry.com and they can start their own journey.

Absolutely, they can. There's lots to discover and particularly as the years go on and more records are released, there's plenty there to get your teeth into. Thanks so much for having me on, Dan. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much, Simon. I've always had the history of my heart's shelter. fit into and thanks so much for having me on dan i really appreciate it thank you so much simon hi everyone it's me dan snow just a quick request it's so annoying and i hate it when

other podcasts do this but now i'm doing it i hate myself please please go on to itunes wherever you get your podcasts and give us a five-star rating and a review it really helps basically boosts up the chart which is good and then more people listen, which is nice. So if you could do that, I'd be very grateful. I understand if you don't subscribe to my TV channel. I understand if you don't buy my calendar, but this is free. Come on, do me a favour. Thanks.