Dan Snow's History Hit - Freemasonry

Episode Date: August 19, 2020

John Dickie joined me on the pod to discuss the international story of an organisation which now has 6 million members across the globe. Tracing the origins from local fraternities of stonemasons at the turn of the fifteenth century, John took me on the freemasons' journey from Britain to America, Australia, Italy and India. We discussed exactly what the freemasons are, how they have been perceived, and why they seem to attract so many conspiracy theories. Subscribe to History Hit and you'll get access to hundreds of history documentaries, as well as every single episode of this podcast from the beginning (400 extra episodes). We're running live podcasts on Zoom, we've got weekly quizzes where you can win prizes, and exclusive subscriber only articles. It's the ultimate history package. Just go to historyhit.tv to subscribe. Use code 'pod1' at checkout for your first month free and the following month for just £/€/$1.

Hello everyone, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. This is Dan Snow himself calling. How are you doing? This episode of History Hit is very exciting because this features the Freemasons. Now we're getting full conspiracy theory everyone, but actually we're not. We're not putting the smack down on conspiracy theories because they are a cancer in the body politic. That's the truth. But I'll find out why because a lot of modern conspiracy theories, in fact John Dickey, Professor of Italian Studies at University College London, who's just written the brilliant history of the Freemasons called The Craft, How Freemasons Made the Modern World, he argues that in fact, all modern conspiracy theories are actually descended from

the response to Freemasons, the fascination, the suspicion, probably the jealousy with which outsiders looked in upon Freemasonry. He calls, the suspicion, probably the jealousy with which outsiders looked in upon Freemasonry. He calls it one of Britain's greatest exports, and he charts how it changed the modern world. This is a big old Freemason chat, everyone. It's exciting. If you want to listen to all these other episodes of Downsides History Hits, there are hundreds of them now, that are only available in one place. Only available. The entire five-year catalogue is only available at one place. That's History Hit TV. It's like Netflix for history. We've got hundreds of documentaries on there. We've got hundreds of podcasts on there. And it's basically all you need to sate

your love of history. I had someone on Twitter telling me yesterday they weren't going to subscribe because they didn't like me. I mean, totally get it. But you'll be happy to learn that I only appear in the tiny minority of documentaries on the channel. There are great sways of the channel. There are hundreds of hours of documentary and audio with no mention of or reference to or appearance by Dan Snow. Lucky you. If you want to check all that out, you go to historyhit.tv, use the code POD1, P-O-D-1, and you get a month for free, and then you get a second month for just one pound, euro, or dollar. This is first transmitted in the middle of August 2020, a year that's getting mixed reviews so far,

to be honest. And if you take up this offer, you'll pay just one pound, euro, or dollar, and that will get you through to the middle of October. Almost the US presidential election will be on our doorstep. We'll have bigger things to worry about than paying a slightly increased subscription for the world's best history channel. So I would do that straight away. In the meantime, everybody, here is John Dickey. Enjoy. Well, thank you very much for coming on the podcast. Pleasure. Great to be here. Well, who on earth are the Freemasons and where do they come from?

They are a brotherhood, an oathed secret society, shall we say, although they bridle when you describe them as a secret society. They say we're a society with secrets and we can talk more about that, who devote themselves essentially to a system of self-improvement through rituals that have a moral meaning. They're sort of allegorical plays. Their chief metaphor is that of building. Just as the stonemasons of yesteryear used to build buildings. The Freemasons are using building as a metaphor for building better men. That's the core of what they're about. And they're about 300 years old. Do they originate in Italy or whereabouts? No, no, they are very much a British invention. They're one of Britain's great cultural exports because they have gone... I've been reading too much Dan Brown in that case.

Yes, no, well, we can talk about the Dan Brown as well because that caused massive panic in the American Masonic world when his Masonic novel was due to come out. No, they're a British export and they went right round the world. I mean, in that sense, they can be compared to football or cricket or golf or something in that this sort of very typically British thing that then got adopted through the roots of commerce and empire and so on, got adopted right round the world. In the book, I try and tell that global story. But the beginnings happen in the 17th and 18th century. Really, the key locations are Edinburgh, first of all, and then

London. Everything happens in the 17th and 18th centuries. That's just the beginning, that's the crucible of everything. Okay, so it's groups of people that come together for social and educational purposes. I mean, there's all sorts of societies, the lunar society. Why did the Freemasons endure? Why did they become this kind of gigantic global export? Well, a lot of it is that sense of fellowship, of collective identity that they managed to forge through their rituals. They also made themselves open to men of different religions different class backgrounds

different races and that really was in tune with the kind of zeitgeist of the 18th century in a time when we were in a sort of world that was slowly secularizing and religion was kind of retreating slowly from its role in public life. The Freemasons allowed you to be from any religion, as long as you believed in God, you believed in the great architect of the universe, which is their code for God. And that was a very radical thing. And instead of the specifics of any particular theology, which of course had created such enormous bloodshed since the Reformation, they substituted secrecy to give a kind of sense of sacredness, of non-denominational sacredness, to their meetings, to their bonds of fellowship. What did they do? I mean, were they tilting at reform? Was it just social? Was it fun? What were they up to?

It was fun. They were notorious boozers in the 18th century, particularly. They met in... Who wasn't? Well, quite, but even in the 18th century, they were notorious, it seems. They met in pubs, taverns, classically. They were certainly a self-help network. They had a shared fund. And in times of distress, you might be able to dip into this fund.

And they united. They were a patronage network as well. There's no question about that. They took off when the Whig nobility of early 18th century London offered them their patronage. And men of all kinds of station, many of the early members, sort of driving members, were Huguenot or children of Huguenot, you know, sort of immigrants on the make kind of thing. And they would be able to latch themselves onto this patronage network and make contacts and so on and so forth. So there are different ingredients to their success. Yes, it was educational. Yes, it was self-improvement. There was a lot of back slapping and male bonding going on. There was the patronage aspect. And then also this strange mixture of law, L-O-R-E, and symbolism and quasi-religious mysticism and so on, that really was a kind of winning cocktail.

So it's a bit of a glorified drinking society. That's a bit harsh. Okay, so they make a sort of contribution. I mean, unlike many of the other clubs from that time, you identify that they were incredibly important. Yeah, I mean, the main asset they had is that they very quickly became global. And they were very important to military life. You know, the 18th century is the first century of global war. And if you were a soldier liable to be sent anywhere

from sort of Canada to India to Europe, you could find a kind of home from home and a sense of familiarity and the promise of a decent burial and contacts if you joined the lodge if you joined the Freemasons and ditto if you were in commerce or if you're an imperial bureaucrat you find your social life ready for you in the lodge when you arrived in your new destination and again a support system the promise that your widow might be looked after if you succumb to some tropical disease or other sounds brilliant why did anyone not join the Freemasons they generated suspicion from very, very early on. Secrecy is a double-edged sword in Freemasonry. The promise when you join is that you will join an elite band who are in possession of secrets. Secrecy creates this enormous esprit de corps within the Freemasons. But at the same time,

it generates great suspicion and ridicule from the outside. I mean, the suspicions that they were a gang of sodomites were very common in the 18th century. And very early on also, the Catholic Church took against them. They were excommunicated for the first time, if I remember the date rightly, in 1738. The problem the Catholic Church had is that the secrecy, again, they thought this must be a cover for heresy, for Satanism. And the Mason's code of sort of religious tolerance really ran right up against the Catholic Church's idea that it had a monopoly of truth. Also, they were suspected of being spies. They came from Britain, which had a much more open public and political life. It's newspapers, it's parliament, all of these scandalous things. And that, from the point of view of absolutist Europe,

looked really scary. And that triggered a long-running tradition of anti-Masonic phobia that runs right up to the present day. Did it take root in non-Anglophone places? Was it quite connected with where British settlers and traders and soldiers went? Land a Viking longship on island shores, scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt and avoid the Poisoner's Cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed.

We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series, Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. Very quickly established itself in mainland Europe and took off, particularly in France, for example, because Britain and France spent most of

the century at war. French Masonry took its own characteristics on, separated itself off from the sort of Grand Lodge in London, which was, if you like, the kind of Vatican of the Holy See of Freemasonry, but soon lost its authority in different parts of the world. I compared Freemasonry, but soon lost its authority in different parts of the world. I compared Freemasonry as a cultural export to football, say. But the differences that challenge somebody to a game of football, doesn't matter whether it's in Tierra del Fuego or Thailand, they play by the same rules. That's not the same in Freemasonry. Freemasons historically in different places, different times have argued the whole time about who controls the rules and what the rules are. Can you admit atheists? Can you admit Catholics? Can you admit Jews? You know, do Hindus count? You have to be a monotheist to be a

Freemason. And so there was a great debate about in the 19th century about whether Hindus counted as monotheists. Then, of course, is the issue of women. You know, are you allowed to admit women? And if so, under what conditions and with what status? So what you get is this great sort of fissuring of Freemasonry across the world. They lost control of the brand very quickly. Well, you know what? A British movement suffering from schism and with breakaway entities is a joke. Hundreds of years in the making, I'm sure Thomas More would have been very happy, had an ironic grin at that.

So we've got all sorts of problems with schism. When people about Freemasonry perhaps you know in a phobic way we think of that network having its impact on politics on trade are there any events around the world are there any great historical events that you can see the influence of the Freemasons as an organising body as a perhaps as an activist body sort of putting its finger on the scale, tipping the course of history? Yeah, in two senses. In the sort of dodgy networking sense, there are, you know, there are definitely examples of that. The prime example from Italy in the 1970s and 1980s is the Masonic Lodge P2, which was involved in everything from laundering money for the mafia to political corruption to right-wing terrorism, you name it. And the networks are different in different places, okay? And in some places, the masonry is just, you know, many places is what

it just claims to be, which is, you know, a sort of society of men dedicated to self-improvement and charity. But there's no doubt that it is a very compelling way of organising yourselves as a secret brotherhood with oaths and a mythology that can be adapted to all kinds of different purposes. Political, for a start. Very soon, revolutionaries and subversives, say during the Napoleonic and early Restoration era in Italy, lighted upon masonry as a way of organising revolutionary cells. That's what the charcoal burners were. They had a very close relationship

to Freemasonry. And, you know, the brand further span out of control so that a great many different organisations stole the model, adopted and adapted the model. The Sicilian Mafia, for example, for example, the Mormon Church, the Ku Klux Klan. All of these have very clear Masonic DNA, if you like. That's fascinating. So that's just a way of building an organisation that they're all descended from the sort of innovations made by these British Freemasons. Absolutely. What did the great totalitarians, I say great, what did these sort of powerful totalitarians or the authoritarians of the 20th century make of Freemasonry in Italy, Germany, elsewhere? Yes, that's where we really see the apogée of this tradition of anti-Masonic phobia that I referred to. All of those major dictatorships abolished Freemasonry with greater or lesser

degrees of violence, despite the fact that, for example, there are a great number of Freemasons in the early fascist movement, for example, in Italy. The idea was that it was kind of liberal or communist cabal. You know, the secrecy of Freemasonry, as I explain in the book, is like a kind of mirror, dark mirror, in which people see reflected kind of what their worst nightmare is, if you like, their enemy. And for the dictatorships, Hitler believed thoroughly in the idea of a Judeo-Masonic conspiracy. The worst, I think, the most brutal and paranoid of the dictatorships when it came to repressing Freemasonry was General Franco. Not coincidentally, I think, because he was the most Catholic of the dictators and the closest to that long-standing tradition of Catholic anti-Masonic

phobia. Franco, to his dying day, was talking about the Masonic conspiracy against Spain. He set up a special tribunal with a minimum sentence of 12 years and a day, minimum sentence of 12 years and a day, specially designed to try or basically to convict Freemasons. It was operative well into the 1960s. I've seen the archives of this tribunal, which are in Salamanca, and there are about 80,000 names in the card index files. And we think there were at most 1,000 Freemasons in Spain. It was just paranoia that cynical people within Franco's regime were very happy to feed. Really, the modern conspiracy theory we owe to the fear of the Freemason. There's no question it's got Masonic DNA all over it, the modern conspiracy theory. The greatest Freemason-related content I've ever seen

is the Simpsons song about the stonecutters when they describe how they kept the metric system down and killed off the electric car, that there is a conspiracy, that there is a dark organisation that controls affairs where you start an anti-Semitism. It springs from the opposition to Freemasonry in the mid-20th century does it? No that it's much older than that as I said it has its roots in the Catholic Church's fear in the 18th century the sort of absolutist era but it really takes off in a very specific time a very specific time, a very specific address, number 25 Edgware Road in London,

which is where, after the French Revolution, an exiled, he was a Jesuit, the Jesuits had been abolished, a French priest in exile from revolutionary France wrote this vast book, five volumes, on the origins of the French Revolution. And he explained it very simply. It's all a plot by the Freemasons. They thought it up at the start and they're the ones who carried it out.

And despite reading to us like raving paranoia, this was enormously successful. It just seemed to offer the simple explanation that people needed for this mind-boggling upheaval that had happened so rapidly in France and was spilling out all over Europe. And that's where it really took off. As with all conspiracy theories and anti-freemasonry, it is extraordinary how much we want there to be a dark guiding force in the world. The idea that actually it's all just a bit random and arbitrary is obviously more disturbing than anything. We need someone to be in charge somewhere, even if we completely disagree with all their aims. Yes, no, that's absolutely right. Conspiracy theories are a way

of giving us stupidly simplistic explanations for events, while at the same time making us think we're clever because we've seen through. So it's the perfect sort of double bind in the conspiracy theory. And it's still very active. You see the classic pattern and you see it still now in British newspapers. You will get a story that comes up the Freemasons masterminded the cover-up at the Titanic inquiry was one recent newspaper headline the Freemasons masterminded the cover-up at the Hillsborough disaster then the stories die

no evidence no denial, nothing happens. It's just left out there because I suppose that's what we assume. People of my generation grew up during the sort of 70s and 80s, particularly the second half of the 1980s, when there were all these stories about masons and police force and so on, which eventually led to a parliamentary committee looking into it turned out to be nothing and the book that gave rise to that by a guy called Stephen Knight called The Brotherhood was written by Cranks it's nuts but of course it fed to an era when we were used to stories of police corruption and so on and so

forth and it became almost an article of faith of the left in Britain that the Masons were a bad lot and they were controlling the police and the judiciary just as in the way it was an article of faith for the extreme right or for Catholics in other times and places. Also for evangelical Christians in the United States. Well, that's absolutely extraordinary. What's the book called? It's called The Craft, How the Freemasons Made the Modern World. Well, good luck with it. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed the podcast. Just before you go, a bit of a favour to ask. I totally understand if you don't want to become a subscriber or pay me any cash money,

makes sense. But if you could just do me a favour, it's for free. Go to iTunes or wherever you get your podcast. If you give it a five-star rating and give it an absolutely glowing review, purge yourself, give it a glowing review, I'd really appreciate that. It's tough weather, the law of the jungle out there, and I need all the fire support I can get. So that will boost it up the charts. It's so tiresome, but if you could do it, I'd be very, very grateful. Thank you. boosted up the charts it's so tiresome but if you could do it i'd be very very grateful thank you