Dan Snow's History Hit - French Resistance Heroine Heading to the Oscars?

Episode Date: March 2, 2021

Joining me on the podcast today are Alice Doyard and Anthony Giacchino to discuss their film Colette: The french resistance fighter confronting fascism which has been shortlisted for the Oscars 2021 in the Documentary Short category. The documentary tells the story of Colette Marin-Catherine who was part of the French Resistance during the Nazi occupation of France in the Second World War. 90-year-old Colette Marin-Catherine confronts her past by visiting for the first time the German concentration camp Mittelbau-Dora where her brother, also a resistance member, was killed. The trip opens old wounds and provides powerful lessons for us all even after the passing of so many years. Alice and Anthony talk about the process of meeting and working with Colette and what the project meant to them as filmmakers.I would thoroughly recommend you watch this powerful piece of work and you can do so by clicking this link: http://theguardian.com/colette

Douglas Adams, the genius behind The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, was a master satirist who cloaked a sharp political edge beneath his absurdist wit. Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth explores the ideas of the man who foresaw the dangers of the digital age and our failing politics with astounding clarity. Hear the recordings that inspired a generation of futurists, entrepreneurs and politicians. Get Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth now at pushkin.fm slash audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold. Hi everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. As you know, we like making videos here at History Hit.

We've got the world's best history channel, for example, historyhit.tv. Go and check it out, I'm sure you will. And I wanted to celebrate the work done by a friend and colleague of mine, Alice Doyard, who is a French producer. She hooked up with the American filmmaker Anthony Giacchino, and they met a remarkable woman, a French resistance veteran, the 90-year-old Colette Marie-Catherine. And she took them on a journey, really, across Europe and into her own

past. It's a great short film. It has been shortlisted for the Oscars in the documentary short category. And you can watch it if you follow the information in the link to this podcast, or I'll be tweeting it out as well. It's on the Guardian Films website. I want to ask the two filmmakers about their experience working with Colette and what the film meant to them to make. It's a fantastic film. Please go and check it out.

Good luck at the Oscars. And as ever, it just is a reminder of the extraordinary people that are living amongst us every day, both veterans of the Second World War, but also witnesses to history, participants in history from all sorts of periods ever since. If you want to come watch one of these podcasts recorded live, we're travelling all over Britain. We'll be in a city near you and you can come and check it out. We'll be recording live, we'll be talking about the history of the city and we'll be listening to one of the great

historians tell us all about her or his work. It's going to be good. Please come and check it out. Go to history.com slash tour. In the meantime, everyone here is Alice Doyald and Anthony Ciacino. Enjoy. Hi, guys.

Thank you very much for coming on the podcast. Oh, thanks for having us, Stan. Thank you, Dan. We're very happy to be with you. Who discovered the extraordinary Colette? We did this together. podcast. Oh, thanks for having us, Stan. Thank you, Dan. We're very happy to be with you. Who discovered the extraordinary Colette? We did this together. Yeah, we were in Normandy scouting an idea for a different film. And it was a tour guide over lunch who just told us, oh, I know this woman, Colette, she was in the French Resistance. I could introduce you if you'd like to meet her. It was really that simple.

And then we called Colette for an interview, as we usually do. And we were there to do some three, five minutes portraits of people who had a role in World War II. And we thought, oh, she might be a good candidate for a resistant woman. And we had this first interview and we were blown away. We arrived at her place. We were 10 of us, so it was quite a lot of people. But she was extremely strong-minded.

She had very vivid memories of the war. She was not impressed by any of the show that was going around. And she talked to us about her brother, Jean-Pierre, very truthfully, very frank, with a very frank but tender tone. And we liked so much what happened here that we need more than just an interview from her. So we tried to imagine what we could ask her to do beyond these three minutes, portrait, to do beyond these three minutes portrait and do a real documentary

that would convey who she was and what she was communicating, transmitting to us with such a strength. And months later, you've been shortlisted for the Oscars. That's an extraordinary backstory, inspiring everybody out there with a camera who wants to make documentaries, I'm sure.

Tell me guys, what did Colette do? Let's come on to her brother in a second and his fate. But what was she doing during the war in 1940 when France fell to the Nazis? What did she decide to do about it? So in 40, she was 11 years old. So at the beginning, she was doing nothing. But she said that as soon as her brother was captured, so in 1943, she was 15, and she started to gather intelligence. And it was as simple as sitting in front of her house and writing down the plate of the German trucks that were going on the line front. Because she was living near the beach and on a main road where all the German army had to pass by if they wanted to reach the beaches. I remember she also told us something else that sort of stuck with me.

Her father was very involved, right, in the resistance. And her father would also just ask her to do things. Hey, can you go into town and just tell me if what's his name is playing the piano at that bar? And she wouldn't even know what that would have meant, but she would go check it out and she could report back to him. Now that meant nothing to her, but certainly there would have been some kind of signal or symbol for her father then to pass on, I think, to someone else. And as she grew up in those war years, when did she become aware that she was doing something very dangerous? And how did her engagement with resistance activities deepen? I would say that if you ask her, what were your role in the resistance,

she would say not much until the D-Day and the landing, when in fact with her mother, they gathered injured people around her house and they took them to the military hospital nearby you where there was a hospital being set up and when she arrived at this hospital who was overloaded with new injured soldiers or people who were living there but had been injured by the bombing the people at the hospital asked her to stay they asked her mother to stay because she had the knowledge of a nurse. And she asked Colette to stay because they needed someone to clean the injured people before they were taken to the surgeon. And so this was her job, like a special maid. She said this for her was her first real important act of resistance or what she considered so. There was a story she told him there also, which was pretty interesting. He said there was an English nurse there who sort of was in charge of everyone. And at one point she was handed

the amputated limb of a child, Colette was. And she said she blacked out. I mean, she couldn't handle this. And the nurse came and just smacked her in the face, like really just hit her, boom, to sort of say, okay, come on, get back to work, to get over it. And Colette then said in typical sort of Colette fashion, that was a good thing that she did that because it sort of did wake me up

and made sure that I wasn't going to let her hit me again. So I was just going to do what she asked me. A brutal time. Now, you mentioned her dad there in her wider family. Her brother features very largely in your film. Talk to me about their relationship and his fate. He was three years older than Colette, and he was studying to be an engineer. He was, because he was older, I think also a bit more involved. And he and a group of other individuals in the town, they were collecting weapons. Now, when the Germans came, it was sort of this edict that everyone must give up their weapons, even old hunting rifles, anything. And they were collecting them.

And I believe the story is that one of the members was caught, was tortured, and gave up the other people, Jean-Pierre among them. And he was arrested, I think, while he was in school. The story Colette said that the Gestapo came actually into the classroom and pulled him out while he was at his studies. Yeah, he was doing this type of things, gathering weapons. Yeah, he was doing this type of things, gathering weapons. He was also putting flowers on the tombs of people who had been killed by the Germans or the Nazis and the Gestapo. And this was obviously forbidden. And as well as he attended a ceremony on the 11th of November, 1942. And this was forbidden too, because it was considered as a French patriotic ceremony. So all this put a red mark on his front. And he was, as Anthony said, after one of the members of their network, I think he belonged to the Front Patriotique de la Jeunesse, which was one of the network of the resistance and the fighters.

And during a day at school, during class, the Gestapo came and took him to a first prison, first jail in Caen called La Maladrerie. And this is where he stayed a few months. He was arrested in June 43. He was just 17.

And in September 43, he was taken out of the Maladrerie. So during these seven months, he was at a place where Colette and her father could visit him. So this is when they took the pictures that Colette and Lucie are bringing to Dora later on, which is on the poster of the film. So very moving pictures of Jean-Pierre was taken by the father, completely forbidden. But during the visit,

they had paid the guards to be allowed to do while he was in this jail who was not very far from their house. And unfortunately, afterwards, he was taken to Paris and then to Germany, to several camps

until he arrived in Mittelbaudura. It was in 1944, and he stayed there only two months, if I remember well, before he was too weak and died. Elise, I want to just add something in here, because we're talking about Jean-Pierre's resistance activities. Colette actually would make the bouquet of flowers for him to take to the graves. So that in itself was also an act of resistance, right? Being part of that.

Certainly if she had gotten caught, that would have been punishable. But typical Colette might not have really seen that as an act, something that was brave or standing up. But I find very deep meaning in that, that she was involved in that. I mean, Jean-Pierre wouldn't have anything to put on the grave if she didn't take the time to sort of make the flowers for that. And that story is really great about how they took that picture because the father hid the camera under his shirt. And they waited for the guard who was going back and forth. And I remember Colette talking about they timed it out, that they had practiced, that they would have a certain amount of seconds.

As soon as the guard would go by them, he could take it off and snap. And then they got out. That in itself is also an act of resistance. Imagine this is to take the last image of someone you love before he vanished into history. Because this is what happened. Afterwards, they did not see him anymore. to history. Because this is what happened. Afterwards, they did not see him anymore. You're listening to Dan Snow's History Hit. We're talking about Colette,

the 90-year-old French resistance fighter. More after this. Land a Viking longship on island shores. scramble over the dunes of ancient egypt and avoid the poisoner's cup in renaissance florence each week on echoes of history we uncover the epic stories that inspire assassin's creed we're stepping into feudal japan in our special series chasing shadows where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. new episodes every week.

Douglas Adams, the genius behind The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, was a master satirist who cloaked a sharp political edge beneath his absurdist wit. Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth explores the ideas of the man who foresaw the dangers of the digital age and our failing politics with astounding clarity. Hear the recordings that inspired a generation of futurists, entrepreneurs and politicians. Get Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth now at pushkin.fm slash audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold. Audiobooks are sold. And he died on the 22nd of March, 1945, three weeks before the camp was liberated.

Coletta's refused for the long decades that followed. She refused to go and visit that site. And you convinced her to go. I'll tell a little bit of the pre-story to that and Elise can really, I think, talk about that. But once we heard her story, we're like, yeah, there's a lot more here, right? I mean, this is worthy of more than three minutes. But the question is like, well, what could we do? Right? And this was a discussion with me and Elise. We weren't talking with Colette about this. She doesn't know that we're thinking about like, hey, we got to do something else with her. She has no idea. Elise and I are talking. And the question was, I had actually been to Zora, that concentration camp memorial,

before. I was familiar with it. It was surprising to me that that was the same place where Jean-Pierre had died. And it was just like, I wonder, you know, I know she said she doesn't want to go, but could we convince her, you think? But even in that discussion, we thought, what would it be like? Okay, we film her going there. I mean, it needed to be more than that. And then, you know, we sort of started to have deeper conversations. And then in the research, Elise hits on Lucy. You can certainly tell that story better than I.

Yes, because my role as producer is important to me, is that, okay, we have an idea, a possible story in mind, but it needs to make sense to the person you are imagining embarking into this adventure. And so we had to find a way that Colette would find it meaningful and that it would make sense in her life to change her mind and not to regret it. So the first thing was a strong bond of trust that grew for six months of conversation with me and Anthony on one side and me with Colette on the other side, where with Colette, we tried to bond it. And I tried to explain why I was interested in her story. So suddenly she started to trust us. And when we discovered that

what was most important for her was to pay tribute to her brother and to talk about her brother first and not about her, she would not pose as a hero and that her brother would lead to Dora that Anthony was knowing already, we thought, okay, what could be the click that would make her say, yes, I follow you. And researching Jean-Pierre, we discovered a project of documenting the life of the French deportees in Dora, who was taking place in a French museum, De la Coupole, at Saint-Omer. And there, there was a young aspiring historian, 17-year-old, who was working as an apprentice. And we thought, oh, but this could be a good match. First, before introducing Lucy, we talked

to Colette about this idea. And Colette said, I trust you guys. Let's go. And then we started to film. And the first encounter you see in the film between Lucy and Colette was the actual first encounter. Nothing is paused in the documentary, obviously. It's their story and their bond, which is growing during the trip to Dora together. They do a little bit more digging into the museum where Lucy worked. We don't get into this in the film, but there's a direct connection between the concentration camp and that museum,

in that the museum is created out of the former remains of a V2 launching site for the V2s that were created or built in Dora. So there's also that connection between that museum and Dora. It's so powerful. Tell everyone what happens when these two unlikely friends and traveling companions end up at the site of Colette's brother's death. For me, I thought what was kind of amazing was that Lucy went into this sort of very bright eyed and optimistic and like, this is going to be a great adventure. She talks about it before she leaves. She's thinking that we're going to do this so we can remember the past so it's not forgotten. So I think that there were like lots of lofty goals

that Lucy had. And certainly true. I think there's truth to all of that, but I'm not sure that she was ready for the emotional punch of everything. I was waiting at the camp when Lucy and Colette were arriving in the car. I was there just waiting for them. Elise was in the car with them and she could really tell you about that. What I can tell you is, is that I had headphones on and slowly it starts crackling. It's like, oh, they're coming into range. I could start hearing them. And the first thing I hear from the car is them crying, both Lucy and Colette. So Elise could take you inside the car. I saw the footage afterwards, but I think as an eyewitness to that,

Elise could really speak to that. Yes, there was something very grabbing, very striking in this car because this was these two women, a young Lucy without prejudice, a bit naive, not cold, but just holding herself very well. And next to her, there was this Colette, amazing character, but also very much in control of herself, of her emotion, about the words she uses. And she was leading the show until that point. In the car, there was suddenly an immense silence. And Colette said, you see the trees around us? Maybe they were already there when they were taking the deportees to the camp. And Lucy cracked, and it was a real surprise for us.

And it was also a surprise for Colette, who cracked as well. And really what happened during these two days in this slave labor camp was beyond words for all of us. Yeah, yeah. As a fan of history, I often look at the trees and think, I've been past trees that would have seen William the Conqueror, a thousand years old oaks. And I agree, the trees that we were watching what happened 80 years ago. Obviously, people will go and watch the film. The link is in the description of this podcast, and I will tweet it as well. Just describe what the effect do you think of visiting that camp was on Colette? It was profound, I think. You see the film and she talks on the train there. Oh, I wasn't really close to my brother.

He was brilliant and I was really a nothing and he was three years older. And I think that she really understood the loss in a way that she hadn't before, before going to that camp and being on the spot and Lucy talking to her about what happened, where he stayed. Yeah, it was profound. She says that, of course, when you visit a camp like this, you cannot come back intact. It moves you, of course. But for her, probably it was much different, probably more profound because of a past history. She said when we took her back home in Caen, she took us to a small restaurant that she likes in Caen and told us, okay, I'm going to tell you, thank you. Because I must admit that I was not close to my brother. And even there's something that was very difficult in my life is that one day I remember that my mother, who I took care of all her life, one day my mother told me, and God knows it's not you who left, but your brother. And so she has been carrying this legacy. And she was full of admiration for her brother. And so she has been carrying this legacy and she was full of admiration for brother, but there was also a deep wound that her family had been destroyed and maybe she had not

done what needed to be done to lift the sadness, the sorrow. When she was at the camp, she paid tribute to Jean-Pierre and she said that there's no closure, but maybe there is the beginning of a healing. Yeah, it's just an extraordinary film. For you guys, it was a passion film and now you've been shortlisted for the Oscars. Just what's that like as program makers and filmmakers? I mean, it's a tremendous honor.

Who wouldn't want this? But I can tell you it wasn't our goal when we were making this. We certainly wanted to tell this story and make sure people heard this story. And it caught on in festivals. People really responded to it. So certainly I'm grateful for this, for being shortlisted, because it brings it to a level that otherwise, you know, may live on the film festival circuit, certainly on The Guardian, which is also important because it's still getting out there. But it's a tremendous honor, and I'm really grateful for it. And it's an honor also for Colette, for people like Colette, because you see, this brings visibility to the story of this woman who embodies a lot of our complex relationship with our past. We've been occupied.

So we have this wound in our country where part of the country were resistant and other part was collaborationist. So our country has been divided. part was collaborationist. So our country has been divided. And often the collaborators, they made careers through the New Republic. I think of, for example, Maurice Papon. He was judged only years afterwards, brought to justice only in 1997. So in France, there's work to do to face and confront our past. At a time when the far-right ideas are gaining power, at a time when anti-Semitism is strong, we have to face and to take actions. You don't have to look in the United States, for that matter,

further than the events of January 6th, the insurrection at the Capitol. It's tied into the same idea, right? These are people who have a false idea of even the past in the United States, right? They're dealing with the United States and a history that they either wish had happened or believe had happened. And that's why you could have seen Confederate flags in the Capitol, right? Or somebody wearing a Camp Auschwitz t-shirt among them. So this idea of looking into the past, whether it's in France, whether it's really anywhere, is really important.

And I think that it's important to deal with the truth of the past, right? Because when we deal with the truth of the past, I think we become more tolerant of other people. And that's, I think, a deeper, deeper meaning in this film. It goes beyond just Colette's personal journey. Well, thank you, Anthony. Thank you, Elise. Thank you for finding Colette. Thank you for making this documentary and good luck with it as you go on this exciting journey together. Tell people how they search for the documentary. You can go to The Guardian's website. Theguardian.com slash documentaries and you will find many interesting

documentaries of The Guardian and Colette is among them and I'll put a link out in the description of this podcast as well so thank you very much

guys for coming on and good luck thank you Dan yeah thank you Dan thank you for having us of our school history, our songs, this part of the history of our country, all work out and finish. Hi everyone, thanks for reaching the end of this podcast. Most of you are probably asleep, so I'm talking to your snoring forms, but anyone who's awake, it would be great if you could do me a quick favour, head over to wherever you get your podcasts and rate it five stars, and then leave a

nice glowing review. It makes a huge difference for some reason to how these podcasts do. Madness, I know, but them's the rules. Then we go further up the charts, more people listen to us and everything will be awesome. So thank you so much. Now sleep well. Douglas Adams, the genius behind The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, was a master satirist who cloaked a sharp political edge beneath his absurdist wit. Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth explores the ideas of the man who foresaw the dangers of the digital age and our failing politics with astounding clarity. Hear the recordings that inspired a generation of futurists, entrepreneurs and politicians.

Get Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth now at pushkin.fm slash audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold.