Dan Snow's History Hit - George VI and Elizabeth, Queen Mother

Episode Date: June 19, 2023

This episode brings the marriage of King George VI and Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother to life, from the uproar of King Edward VIIIs abdication to the challenges of the Second World War. How did they shore up public faith in the monarchy? And how did they raise their daughters through such an uncertain period?Dan is joined by Sally Bedell Smith, a leading historian of the monarchy and author of George VI and Elizabeth: The Marriage That Saved the Monarchy. She was granted special access by Queen Elizabeth II to her parents' letters and diaries and shed some light on these questions and more.Produced by James Hickmann and edited by Tomos Delargy.Discover the past on History Hit with ad-free original podcasts and documentaries released weekly presented by world-renowned historians like Dan Snow, Suzannah Lipscomb, Lucy Worsley, Matt Lewis, Tristan Hughes and more. Get 50% off your first 3 months with code DANSNOW. Download the app or sign up here.We'd love to hear from you! You can email the podcast at [e-mail] can take part in our listener survey here.

This is History's Heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas, and the courage to stand alone. Including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the First World War. You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, Sonny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you. Join me, Alex von Tunzelman, for History's Heroes. Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. On the podcast I'm talking all about the coming of George VI and his wife

after his big brother Edward sacked it all off, abdicated for the woman he loved. I've got Sally Beddle-Smith, journalist, best-selling biographer. She's written all her accounts of Jackie Kennedy, Diana, Princess of Wales, Elizabeth II, all sorts of people. And she's just written George VI and Elizabeth, the marriage that saved the monarchy, because she was given exclusive access to the Royal Archives to look at things like the correspondence between them and the journals of those respective royals. And she's got some new insights into that remarkable relationship. The Duke and Duchess of York, they were never supposed to be king and queen.

And then they had to serve in that role through the Second World War. It's a remarkable story. And she makes the case, and I think I kind of agree with her, that the reason that Britain's Delisa monarchy and so many other monarchies around Europe ran out of road is largely down to the skill, the dexterity and the political nous of George VI, his wife, Elizabeth, and their daughter, Elizabeth II. It's a fascinating story. We're very lucky to have Sally back on the podcast. Enjoy. T-minus 10. Atomic bombs dropped on Hir much for coming on the pod. You're welcome. I'm delighted to be here. Let's start with the big moment, right? The abdication. I mean, how much of a shock was that? And talk to me about the impact on the family.

Well, the impact was profound and it sort of echoed across the decades. They were very well aware of Wallis Simpson. They disapproved of her. He knew they disapproved of her. She was, in fact, for many reasons, not least because her two marriages went against the Church of England rules and the government rules, and she was an unsuitable person for him to marry. And the abdication crisis, which unfolded really in November and December of 1936, Edward VIII's brother, the Duke of York, was really kept on the sidelines most of the time. He was desperately trying to get in touch with his brother who was ducking him. I mean, he did meet him a few times, his brother who was ducking him. I mean, he did meet him a few times, but from reading the letters of Queen Mary, the letters of then Duchess of York, and then Duke of York, they just couldn't

believe that David, as they all called him, was being so selfish and that he was not putting the crown above his wish to marry Wallis Simpson and make her his queen. I mean, Queen Mary, after she found out about it, said, oh, he's had many infatuations, and surely this one will go away too. But obviously it didn't. He behaved so badly, Obviously, he didn't. He behaved so badly, not only in his insistence on marrying her and making her his queen, but he was also a terrible king. And that was known by the people around him, including his brother. I mean, he was irresponsible. He flouted protocol. He didn't do his work. He was inattentive. He was selfish, and he was also treacherous. He lied to them about a lot of things. George VI, we have this image of him from film and TV,

as shy, as not wanting to inherit the throne. It was very much thrust upon him. Is that accurate from the research that you've done? It is accurate. He had made a life for himself. He had actually found quite a lot of meaning in being what was then not called the mayor. And he was very satisfied with his work that he was doing for the Industrial Welfare Society and promoting better relations between workers and owners of businesses. And this was not something he wanted at all. And as he wrote in his own account, and also Harold Nicholson, when he interviewed Queen Mary some years later, they said the same thing,

that when he heard that this was going to happen, he put his hand on his mother's shoulder and cried like a baby, his own words. But when it was thrust upon him and her, they embraced it and they were really superb at kingship and queenship. Only a few days after the abdication, they felt as if they had a blow to the head. But she said, the funny thing is, we're not afraid. We're ready to do our duty. Talked about her, talked about Elizabeth, George VI's wife, or the Duchess of York as she was. Was she born into royalty? What was her background? Well, her background was she was the daughter of the 14th Earl of Strathmore, a long entitled history of the family. They had a beautiful castle in

Scotland, Glom's. They had a house in Hertfordshire, an estate. They had a house in London and they lived the sort of typical aristocratic life moving from London to Scotland to Hertfordshire and back to London and following the birds, as they would say. And it was a big family. There were nine children. And her mother was sort of unusually maternal. So she grew up in a very happy family, unlike that of George VI, which was very circumscribed and very sort of emotionally deprived. It's a wonderful love story because he fell in love with her the moment he saw her on a dance floor in July of 1920. And he pursued her for 30 months and proposed to her three times. And the last one was the one she accepted, obviously. And a lot of it, I was very lucky to be given access to the Royal Archives. And I spent three

months there reading their diaries and letters. And I could see in a very intimate way how that courtship laid out and how they stepped up to their roles when he became king. Their courtship was really her reluctance and his determination. And in a way, she never really explained why she took so long to say yes. I think what her family members said was that she just didn't want to give up that life. She had a life of her family and her friends, and she had a measure of freedom and she well understood that going into the royal family for the rest of her life would require a level of duty and also that she would be cut off in a way from the world that she had enjoyed very much. It was kind of a love match, I guess, right? That in which at the time for a royal duke was reasonably unusual. They were still in the world of fairly

arranged marriages. Maybe that's what made it so successful. Yeah. Well, I mean, it was a love match certainly on his part. And I think as we all know from having watched the King's speech, he did suffer from a stutter that was very debilitating for a long time. And he didn't have a stutter all the time. When he was with people he knew very well, it sort of subsided. He had bottom. He had real character. I mean, if you compare what he was writing at the time with what, say, the then Prince of Wales was writing to his lover before Wallace Simpson. The letters were cynical and profane and self-absorbed and babyish. He was so unsuitable to be a king.

And those who were working around him knew that he wouldn't make a very good king. And they were trying their best to prop him up. But obviously, they were not very successful. But Bertie, on the other hand, had the wherewithal to embrace his duties and recognize the service that was required of him. And she did too. You know, it took her a little while. I mean, it was interesting to read in her diaries how she sort of loved to sleep until late in the morning and just lounge around and write letters and do this and that. But eventually she realized that she had to step up and she did a lot of charitable work and she took it very seriously.

You're listening to Dan Snow's History Hit, talking about George VI and his wife, more coming up. History's Heroes This is History's Heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas, and the courage to stand alone. Including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the First World War. You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, Sonny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you.

Join me, Alex von Tunzelman, for History's Heroes. Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcasts. What about their daughter, obviously the late Queen Elizabeth, one of the longest-serving monarchs of all time? Even detractors of the monarchy say she did a pretty damn good job. Do you think that's the example that was set by her parents? Absolutely. They modelled their behaviour. They had a very particular training for her. I thought it was fascinating to find out from various letters and diaries that they recognized, even when she was as young as four years old, that she might well be queen one day.

I mean, Queen Mary invited her at age four. Think of Prince Louis right now and imagine him in this situation. But she went to a luncheon with a group of wives of Indian princes, and her mother took her out on engagements. And really, from the age of 13, she had a very particular kind of education when she was tutored by Henry Martin, who was at Eaton College down the road from Windsor Castle. And she was a very assiduous student and had a very good memory. I had to remember a lot of poetry. It was surprisingly well-read, particularly for a young woman of that period. Of course, in World War II, she saw the example of her parents, which was their willingness, their eagerness to put themselves in jeopardy time after time when

they would go into London during air raids. And of course, Buckingham Palace was bombed nine times, and the second bomb nearly killed them. She was old enough to be aware of their courage and their commitment to the British people and how much she modeled after them. They really imbued her with their values. She always said that she admired her father's steadfastness more than anything. You know, having written a book about Queen Elizabeth II, I learned a lot, obviously, but I learned a lot more about it, her education in reading and doing the research for this book. There's been more research done recently on her uncle, on the Duke of Windsor,

the former King Edward VIII and his wartime activities. Did you come across much in the archives on that? Were they worried about his wartime activities, his loyalties at all, do you think? They absolutely were. I think I'm the first person to have read King George VI's diaries from their beginning on September 3rd, 1939, all the way to 1947. And I did a fairly forensic analysis of it all. And I have four single-spaced pages of more than 50 mentions of the Duke of Windsor. And when he was younger, he'd been intimidated by him. But when he became king and the Duke of Windsor was behaving badly over in France as the war began, and he went to Lisbon and Madrid, and he was consorting with Nazis. And of course, he, before the war, had made that a really inadvisable two-week visit to Germany to meet with Hitler and his high command.

So they were very aware that he was capable of treason. reason. They knew some of it during the war through intelligence, that he was with undesirable people with links to Nazi Germany, and that there had in fact been an effort on their part to give him things like codes. They gave him a code for when he went to the Bahamas to be the governor general there, that if Germany succeeded in invading England, they would bring him back and install him as king and Wallace would be queen. I don't think you can get more treacherous than that. That's a story that's going to, I think, continue to unfold over the years as more and more scholars like you are allowed into the archives. Why did the royal family let you into the archives? How does that work? Well, you know, the fact that they let me in was really all I needed to know. You know, I had written a biography of the queen and a biography

of the now king. And I had some very helpful advocates. And I wrote a proposal and gave it to one of them. And it was presented to the queen. And it took about six months for me to get the approval. And I assume, I mean, it was a very sensitive thing for her to hand over to somebody because it concerned her mother and father and their legacy. So I was just thrilled when I was given the word in the spring of 2018 that they would let me in. And so I spent three months, first of all, climbing up the hill from the train station, then climbing up the hill at Windsor Castle, and then climbing up 100 medieval stone steps, which is the only way you can get up to the archives. And obviously brought my lunch every day. Didn't want to go down and up those steps too many times. This is my eighth biography.

This is my eighth biography. And I would say that being able to read those papers, those diaries, those letters, which is such an intimate experience. And I was able to really feel as if almost I was standing by their side as they were going about their business and their personal life. And so I felt that it gave an intimacy to the book without being intrusive. A lot of other countries in Europe and the world got rid of their monarchies in the last hundred years. Do you think Britain survived because of big historical reasons or because of luck or because of the particular behaviour of the particular behavior, the comportment, the skill set of the people that you've been talking about, particularly George VI, his wife and daughter?

Yes. Well, I think in them, I mean, obviously, if we go back the centuries, we see some pretty rum characters who were kings and queens. But certainly from in the 20th century, from George V on. And even Edward VII, who was a playboy and not terribly responsible before he became king, he turned out to be quite a capable king, as did George V. I mean, I think the monarchy would have really been imperiled if Edward VIII had continued regardless of Wallace Simpson, because he was really a terrible monarch. I mean, I was able to see letters that were written by Lord Tweedsmear, letters to him.

This is a collection that I found in Canada, which nobody had ever looked at before. But he was corresponding regularly with people, grandees in England, and also people who were working for the king and working for the royal family and was hearing how irresponsible he was. could have jeopardized the monarchy's existence. And George VI and Queen Elizabeth had as their main task, after he took the throne in December 1936, of restoring people's faith in the monarchy and building it up and providing an example and providing inspiration. And they did that extremely well. and providing inspiration. And they did that extremely well. They weren't able to do it for very long because he died at such a young age, but they did do it for 15 years. And six of those

years were the most dangerous of the 20th century in World War II. How would George Dick and his wife received initially by public opinion? Because Edward was kind of popular, right? So was the war the making of them in a way? Yes, they had conducted themselves very well as Duke and Duchess of York. They went to Australia and New Zealand back in 1927. And really just, they were enormously popular and they carried out everything they were asked to do. And they were much acclaimed when they returned. But the Prince of Wales, then King Edward VIII, was much more of a show horse. And George VI was a workhorse, as was his daughter. And that's what a monarch needs to be. When he was Prince of Wales, Edward VIII would go off and he would make these very showy tours and make pronouncements.

But it was the Duke of York during those years who was really doing the work and making a difference. And I think that obviously continued when he became king. Amazing. Well, thank you very much, Sally, for coming on and talking to us about it. What is your book called? The book is George VI and Elizabeth, the Marriage that Saved the Monarchy. Thank you very much indeed. You're welcome. It was a pleasure. This is History's Heroes.

People with purpose, brave ideas, and the courage to stand alone. Including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the First World War. You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, Sonny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you. Join me, Alex von Tunzelman, for History's Heroes. Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcasts.