Dan Snow's History Hit - George Washington

Episode Date: March 31, 2024

As Commander-in-chief of the Continental Army, George Washington was a central feature of the American Revolutionary War. He was also the first President of the nascent United States, and his ethics permeated the nation's constitution.Dan is joined by Craig Bruce Smith, Associate Professor of History at the National Defense University specialising in the American Revolutionary era. Craig tells us all about the life, leadership and ethics of George Washington.Produced by James Hickmann and edited by Dougal Patmore.Enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts. Get a subscription for £1 per month for 3 months with code DANSNOW sign up at https://historyhit/subscription/We'd love to hear from you- what do you want to hear an episode on? You can email the podcast at [e-mail] can take part in our listener survey here.

Hi everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. We are getting into American Revolution 250. You'll have heard the Boston Tea Party podcast and the TV show on History Hit TV that went out at the end of last year. We are slowly working our way up, or rather down, through the various levels of crisis and catastrophe and misunderstanding, which will eventually lead to the first shots fired, or rather the first pitch battles at Lexington and Concord. Trust me, History Hit is going to be your home for all things American Revolution 250. Looking forward to some of those trips. A key figure in that revolution, clearly, is George Washington. He's the military commander without whom it's hard to see

the Continental Army staying together, remaining as effective as it did through, despite lack of funding, atrocious supply, recruitment problems, morale issues. He is the man who kept that army in being. And then, when the time was right, he struck hard and fast at the British, both in New Jersey and then ultimately further south in the Chesapeake. And so I thought we'd check in with George Washington in this podcast. We're going to be talking a lot about him over the next few years. Whenever I talk about the Seven Years' War, you'll have heard me bang on about George Washington. He was the young British militiaman who accidentally started the Seven Years' War in so many ways, the French-Indian War,

by ambushing a group of French troops and their Indian allies in what is now Western Pennsylvania. And so his fingerprints are all over American and world 18th century history. He is a titan. And unlike so many founders of nations, unlike so many generalissimos, he gave up power, military power and political power. Eventually, he just retired. George Washington's going home. And when news of that retirement reached Britain, it is said that George III of England remarked, if he does that, he'll be the greatest man in the world. And well, perhaps in 18th century terms, he was one of the greatest men in the world. Certainly he did more damage to the British Empire than Napoleon or the Kaiser. And yet, unlike them, when George Washington died, Royal Navy ships lowered their ensigns to half mast.

Truly a telling tribute to the man who'd proved one of the nation's greatest ever opponents. To talk about George Washington, we're very lucky to have a fabulous historian. We've got Craig Bruce Smith. He's an associate professor of history at the National Defence University. He specialises in the American Revolutionary era and in the leadership, the ethics, both military and political, of George Washington. This is such a treat to get Craig on the podcast. Enjoy. Craig, thanks so much for coming to the podcast, buddy. Oh, thanks so much for having me. I just need to get the one simple sort of question out of the way here first.

When George Washington was growing up, when he was a boy, when his worldview was forming, would he have considered himself a subject of King George II, much as someone living in Shropshire? He would have thought of himself as a true-born Englishman. he would have thought of himself as a true born Englishman. And he would have believed he was just as much a subject as anyone in the home islands. He was actually aspiring to be an English gentleman in the truest sense of the word. And his nearby neighbors, the Fairfax family were actually titled British aristocrats, one of the few aristocratic families in America. So he actually has a model of British aristocracy right next door. So he believes he's an Englishman. He wants to be an Englishman. He even at one point tries to enlist in the Royal Navy. His mother talks him out of it. Sensible man. in the Royal Navy. His mother talks him out of it. Sensible man. That's one of the great what-ifs of history. What if George Washington had been allowed to join the Royal Navy as a teenager? But

we'll never know. So yeah, even into his early 20s, French-Indian War, he views himself as English, and he wants to advance himself within the British Empire. So he's brought up into this very affluent sounding community in Virginia. He's highly educated. He gets a kind of technical education as well, doesn't he? He's skilled at reading the landscape, measuring all the kind of surveying skills that are obviously hugely valuable in this vast new continent. How does he come to serve in that first role and play such an enormous part in that kind of a hinge point of history? It's really interesting because a lot of the perception is he is from this elite background, and he is, but he's not as elite as others, even in America. And he's certainly nothing near the

Fairfax family or even English gentility. So he complains for his whole life about what he calls his defective education. And what he means by that is he doesn't have a traditional schooling. He has sort of like schoolhouse and maybe a private tutor, but his father dies when he's really young. So his older half brothers have educated in England and he can't go because he doesn't have the money. So he's got this sort of really rudimentary education.

He's learning how to write by copying, really limited. So he's probably not as elite as we imagine him to be. He's certainly better off than most in America. He's American sort of gentry class, but he really makes his way because his older half-brother, Lawrence, marries into the Fairfax family. And that's what really elevates him. His brother marries in, and therefore he gets sort of the invitation to all the grander sort of events.

So that's where he gets his entrance into the balls, the fox hunting. That's where he picks up a lot of the sort of trappings. He learns what to read. He learns how to act, how to talk. If you go to any historical site anywhere in the US, you could probably get a copy of George Washington Rules of Civility and Decent Behavior. It's this little pamphlet. He's credited as being the author of all these different social etiquette rules, what to do, how to treat people. He didn't actually write it. It's probably he was copying it as like a penmanship exercise. And so it's one of his old sort of like school books, but it's because George Washington wrote

it. He gets credit for a lot of things. So that's how he sort of advances himself. And he gets his first job as a surveyor, just like how he advanced himself, because of who he knows. He gets it because of the Fairfax family. And they're the largest landholders in Virginia. They've got, I don't even know how many acres, a lot. And he is sort of tasked with being the surveyor. He learns it because it's his career. It's a skill that a gentleman could have. If you worked with your hands, you are not a gentleman. But if you're out there with a telescope and some maps, that's really not working with your hands. So he gets his first job because of who he knows, which is basically because who his brother married into, which if you're thinking about sort of English society in the 18th century, that's pretty on par. English society in the 18th century, that's pretty on par. And it's a pretty complicated story, but he goes into the Ohio River Valley, into a piece of land that is claimed by both the British and French, but the French have built a line of forts there. And he ends up with his indigenous allies kind of massacring a small French force. And this is

the spark that ignites the so-called French-Indian war in North America, but what we in here in the UK call the Seven Years' War, a global superpower conflict. Yeah, you're absolutely right. So he literally, again, depends how you read the sources. He's certainly involved in the first sort of clash of the French-Indian war, or he may literally fire the first shot of the French-Ind Indian War, although it depends how you count. So the French and the British see things very differently. So for the British, they would argue that the French and Indian Wars already started when the British have forced them out of a little frontier fort called Fort Trent. They would argue, oh, the war's already started. No shots are fired. Whereas for the French, well, that was just

an English fort encroaching on French land. That isn't the start of the war. The start of the war is when Washington, not necessarily him particularly, but his band, kill a French ambassador. There's a series of reprisals, if you like, I guess. And then there's a disastrous expedition that Washington's on. He's lucky to survive that as well. So he's lucky not to join the Royal Navy. And then he's lucky to survive this expedition. He gets several bullet holes through his uniform and things, doesn't he? He's a kind of advisor to a British regular force that marches into this Ohio country and is massacred by the French and their indigenous allies. Yeah. So he goes from a really low point. So

his native allies get to kill this French diplomat. Washington's going to be shocked by this. They go their separate ways. Washington's also going to be forced to capitulate later after a battle at Fort Necessity, which is basically just a bunch of sticks in the ground surrounded by the French and natives. Not a really smart move to be in. But because of that, he is going to have to sign a treaty of capitulation, articles of capitulation. Washington, remember, defective education, doesn't speak any French. And no respectable gentleman in the 18th century doesn't speak French. So he goes to his translator, who is a Dutch fencing master, who also kind of doesn't speak French, who translates the document poorly. And it actually,

Washington signs it. It says he is the assassin of Monsieur Jean-Marie Bilso, who was this ambassador. So Washington goes from this really low point. The French call him the ambassador. The British are like shocked. They said, this is the blackest document an English subject has ever put his hand to. But then he comes back with General Edward Braddock. Why? Because he's actually been there. Braddock needs firsthand intel. So he basically serves as an advisor. He has no rank. Washington is really sensitive to this. And one of the reasons he's serving with Braddock is he wants a regular army king's commission. He wants to advance himself. So Braddock is killed. Washington is going to emerge as this great hero because he is going

to rise from his sickbed. He's sick with dysentery, sort of being dragged in a cart. And he's going to stop this ambush from being a full-on rout. So he grows in stature from that. And Braddock famously is going to give him his sash dying in the woods of Western Pennsylvania. So it's viewed as this sort of like symbol, this transition of Washington is this great hero. And what's interesting is that battle, you've got lots of people you're going to meet again in the American Revolution are all going to fight there from Thomas Gage to Horatio Gates to Daniel Morgan. So we're going to meet them all again. Yeah, It's such an interesting cast of characters on both sides. Washington then, for the rest of the French-Indian War, he doesn't serve in the big campaigns with the British regulars up in Quebec or even thrusting back in towards what is now Pittsburgh.

What does he do during that war? And how is this kind of phase really quite important in sort of creating his reputation? So he's at this point serving with the Virginia militia. And again, he comes to this position largely through who he knows rather than what he knows. Prior to the French Indian War, he really has no military training. He's read about Julius Caesar and Frederick the Great and things like that. But he's serving with the militia. And it's pivotal because the American militias during that period are not professional armies. It's anyone from roughly 16 to 60. If you've got a musket, well, you're in the militia. They are treated as sort of second-class citizens by the British. They're sort of mocked at. They're not in uniform.

They don't fight the same way. They're used to fighting against Native Americans for generations. And they're sort of laughed at. So Washington and other Americans start to sort of internalize this. And a sense of being American really starts to come as something different from being British, starts to come from the French and Indian War. And Washington really tries to show that the Virginia militia is the equal to any British force. For instance, anything from professionalizing their uniform. So the buff and blue that we think of as the Continental Army that starts off as the Virginia

militia and Washington trying to professionalize and show that his force is equal to that of the British. and show that his force is equal to that of the British. He also starts to push for the idea of merit, whereas he views the British as advancing those who are less deserving. Within his own units, he tries to promote based on competence, quality, rather than who you know. Although he does, the Fairfax family does reach out and, you know, we've got a couple of young sons that we want commissioned and Washington refuses to do it. Instead, he writes to the Lieutenant Governor and says, can you commission them for me? So he could maintain that, well, I am promoting only merit while actually still promoting patronage to some degree.

But an interesting break with his younger years and the European way of doing things. So is this evidence, do you think So is this evidence? Do you think if you were looking back at his career, is there some evidence here of the future direction in which he'd take the decision to join the Patriots against the British crown? I think he's still a true born Englishman. And I don't think he's even considering anything different. It's about trying to show that colonials are the same as the Englishmen. They're coming to it different ways. Looking back, you could say, look, here's some early rumblings, some early tension,

but I wouldn't call it anything like he's a proto-patriot yet. Washington actually comes a little bit later to the split than some of the more radicals that got more popularized by the 1760s, like your Samuel Adams or your Sons of Liberty. So there's something going on, but is it Washington the patriot? Not yet. But militarily then, has he learned useful lessons? I mean, is he a good militia commander at this point? So this is the interesting thing. He is better than he was, obviously. He has won some acclaim by this point, and he is learning on the job. So he is one of these few Americans that by the time the American Revolution breaks out, has had some high-level military

experience. But is he a skilled tactician? No. Is he going to be, and this is a big thing, how great of a general is Washington? Lots of the greatest generals and the worst generals. He's learning to use the forces he has to adapt. He wants to be a military commander in the traditional mindset, but he is learning to adapt. And he can take that from his sort of colonial experience. And, you know, the unglamorous stuff, right? Logistics. He's getting used to the idea of keeping the men on the muster roll, the shoes on the feet, the clothes on the back, the powder and ball in men's cartridges. And I guess that's a big

part of it as well. And again, he's leading a militia who are less regulated, less disciplined than a professional British army. So he has to learn to work with his men in a way that a British general does not. You're listening to Dan Snow's History. We're talking about George Washington. More coming up. I'm Matt Lewis. And I'm Dr. Alan Orjanaga.

And in Gone Medieval, we get into the greatest mysteries. The gobsmacking details and latest groundbreaking research. From the greatest millennium in human history. We're talking Vikings. Normans. Kings and popes. Who were rarely the best of friends. Murder.

Rebellions. And crusades. Find out who we really were. By subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. Wherever you get your podcasts. Let's skip forward now because we've done a few podcasts recently on the build up to the Boston Tea Party, which was the anniversary, the 250th last just before Christmas, and people can go back and check those out on the feed. What about George Washington? How does he come to his decision? What's the big moment? Which way is he going to jump? Loyalist or rebel? It's slow. Washington is largely very careful, but we see through his

career, he will take big risks when the moment's right. But he's often very careful. So when the Stamp Act comes about, and I know you've talked about the run-up to all the taxation, he's becoming a little sort of resistant and hesitant. The idea that the British are, again, I think the term was he uses, have their hand in his pocket. And he comes about it, first he sees himself, what he's facing individually. So how his first sort of rumblings are, Washington's a big fashionista. He has to have all the most fashionable things from London. So whether it's a suit, whether it's shoes, whether it's China, whether it's silverware, he has to have the best. Second, he will not have

second class. He's actually writing to merchants and he's complaining, you're sending me this last season's stuff. I want the new. So what happens is when the Stamp Act comes out, which is a tax on pretty much any paper good, the Americans are going to boycott and they're going to boycott British products. Now, this hurts British merchants. So British merchants are going to call in their debts. So gentlemen of the period would buy on credit, think like a credit card today. And it was a matter of honor, the idea that we trust that you will pay. So to call in someone's debt implied that they were not honorable. You didn't believe

they would pay. And so Washington starts to view this personal dishonor, like how dare you ask me to pay for those things I bought? Don't you know I'm good for it? And he starts to link that to the larger sort of process of the Americans being taxed. But he still, there's hesitance in how to resist. So for instance, his reaction to rioting, he is fervently opposed to rioting. He's sort of shocked by it. So something like the Boston Tea Party is not something Washington would be very comfortable with. But the reaction to the Boston Tea Party, the so-called intolerable acts or coercive acts, depending on which side you're on. When the ports are shut, when there's a military presence, that's when Washington starts to reemerge from his first retirement and joins the First Continental Congress. And that's where

you really see him taking on a role. So he has international prominence at the very beginning of the French and Indian War, and then everyone sort of forgets about him. And then he reappears in 1774 as one of these early patriot leaders. But where he really comes to forefront is after the first shots at Lexington and Concord, and this is blood has been spilled. And that's where Washington's going to ultimately become commander in chief of the Continental Army. Though he professes to not want the job, when you show up wearing your military uniform, you're kind of signaling, well, here I am. Was there much competition? Not as much as some would like to think.

You do have others, most prominently John Hancock, who is probably the wealthiest man in America at that point. Fighting's been in Massachusetts. He assumes it will be him, but John Hancock has fought literally, well, with his checkbook. So it's very clear it's going to be Washington for a number of reasons. Number one reason is the war at that point in 1775 is viewed by many as a Massachusetts war or a New England war, putting a Virginian in charge shows that this is an American war. So not a whole lot of competition, at least not for real, but there are others that are contending, including two Englishmen who are Horatio Gates and Charles Lay, who many view in America and also in Britain, well, they're British trained, therefore they

must be the best. And this is going to be a problem throughout the war. Well, it's a shame from the British point of view that they didn't put either of those two gentlemen in charge of the Patriot Army, because there might have been a different outcome. We'd all be singing off the same hymn sheet to this day, Craig. All be speaking English. All be speaking English, exactly. So how should we characterize Washington's war? Because it seems to me that he's trying to do two things. One is he's trying to be a bit of a sort of guerrilla commander almost. You know, he's opportunist and ambush and taking on a great military power, these red-coated infantrymen, and trying to use landscape like you mentioned earlier and trying to sort of gain local advantage and grind them down. But the other thing he's doing is he is trying to build a big modern national army, isn't he? This is not a guerrilla force. These are uniformed infantrymen who are expected to

stand in the line of battle and fire three volleys a minute. Yeah, exactly. So if you think about the great historical documentary, The Patriot, that was so beloved in Britain, that's not exactly what's going on. You do have militia men. You do have the so-called men that are using this sort of guerrilla style. You actually have Washington assign to his officers a book called The Partisan about how to fight like this. So most Americans don't have any real military training aside from fighting natives or perhaps French Indian War. So Washington gives them like a reading list.

Read this book. Aside from the partisan, most of it are your classical texts. Read about Julius Caesar. Read about these British generals. Read about Frederick the Great, Gustavus Adolphus, these great sort of European commanders. But Washington wants a professional army. He wants to be equal the British, maybe not necessarily one for one, but he's afraid of his reputation, the sort of honor of the nation. And he feels that if they win this war through guerrilla fighting, it will not be recognized by the rest of the world. So he wants to win it in a traditional European style. So he's very much trying to build a European army. At the same time, he is managing these militiamen, these guerrilla

bands. It's what we'd call today in the hybrid warfare, that he's taking all these sort of different approaches. And at the same time, he's running a military intelligence apparatus that is so successful that no one knows he was doing it until the 1930s. What he's doing is really modern. And he's sort of coordinating all these different regional elements with the sort of main body of the Continental Army. So, yeah, he wants a modern army. He wants a professional European army. And that's why you get the Americans are very keen to give a commission to anyone with an accent, whether or not their resume or their CV actually is real. If you say you can help sort of professionalize the army. But Washington, his early years of the

war, he wants to attack. He wants to beat the British like he was fighting in the fields of France. And he does get the chance to do that once or twice, the famous victories at Trenton and Princeton, very impressed, crossing the Delaware, stinging defeats on British regulars or British allied regulars. But what is his greatest achievement? Is it those victories, those kind of battlefield victories,

or is it just the sheer effort of keeping an army in the field, just against all obstacles? Yeah, so Washington is actually kind of laughed at by the British before the great crossing of the Delaware. And a lot of British don't think anything of him. They're like, well, we don't have to worry about Washington. We have to worry about Charles Lee, a British officer in American service. Washington gets crushed in New York. And so Lord General Cornwallis is going to basically be tasked with chasing him into New Jersey. And Cornwallis refers to him as the fox to be bagged. This is sport. This is not a real

military campaign. I think you're right. It's the ability to keep the army afloat or in the field, right? So Washington views the Continental Army as the revolution. So long as the Continental Army exists, the revolution continues. And I think he's right there. And the British are never able to destroy his army. He's the master of retreat. And this is what keeps the revolution going. Now, the crossing gets a lot of fanfare, particularly internationally. Allegedly, Frederick the Great calls it the greatest military achievement of history. That's sort of a dubious quote.

We can't really pin down. But it sounds good. So I'm going to give it to you. And it certainly puts some fear or apprehension in the minds of the British army, who after this are always sort of paranoid that whenever there's some river or there's some impossible, unlikely outcome, Washington's going to come crossing on whatever holiday it is and come and try to attack. So it starts to give him some prestige and some respect from his adversaries, who before

that, they refused to even call him general. So when Washington's in New York, for instance, the Howe brothers are going to send him letters. And they first go to Jesse to Mr. George Washington, letters sent back, we have no such person. Then they send it to George Washington, Esquire, sent back, we have no such person. Do you mean General Washington? So there is sort of this building recognition. But yeah, it's really the fact he keeps the army together. That is his great achievement throughout the war. When others may have been tempted to become more offensive and risk the army, he realizes this is the revolution. And then there is this great final battle at Yorktown, well, it's a siege and a battle down in his beloved Virginia. And because of a victory in the Battle of Saratoga,

which people may have heard of in 1777, when the British were defeated, well, actually, to be fair to General Gates, by General Gates, how much credit he deserves for that victory, we don't know. But because the Battle of Saratoga, 777, the French have come in, there's a big French fleet off the coast blockading this British force in, old Lord Conwallis, who you mentioned, and an American and French force besieging this British force at Yorktown. And so Washington gets the big set piece conventional military engagement that he was hoping for. He does. Again, he couldn't do it without the French. And the war continues for two years, but this is the last major battle for the British. Once news hits London in November, they recognize it's done. George III wants to keep on

pushing, but his parliament wants no part of that, and neither do the British subjects. And now it's a global war. The British are fighting in the Caribbean. They're defending Gibraltar. They're fighting in India. So by that point, the British are, we're done with this. But Washington does get his big, as you said, conventional military victory, and he does it over in command of an allied force. So this is the big final battle, though I would argue his most important military achievement is going to come two years later. Okay. Well, let's come to his greatest military achievement. What is that? After the end of the fighting? Okay. So I think it's tied up. So you have something called the Newburgh Conspiracy, and this is really shrouded in conspiracy. So again, we don't know

all the details and there's lots of contention. Was there a real conspiracy? Was this just grumbling? But the Continental Army hadn't been paid for years. Continental Congress had no money. So the officers and soldiers have been offered promises and promissory notes. And the officers in particular have been promised pensions, pay for life. But they were afraid that when the war was over, they would be sent home and they wouldn't be paid. So a secret sort of anonymous document makes its way throughout the camps. This is in New Windsor and Newburgh, New York, along the Hudson, about 60 miles north of New York City. And it's basically saying that something needs to be done. And the question is, what needs to be done? There's different interpretations. One, that the Continental Army would retreat past the Appalachian Mountains, let the British march out of New York

and do what they wanted until they got paid, and then they would re-engage. Or is it a march on Congress, literally a coup to take power, ensure they're getting paid? There's also some cahooting with congressmen who are using the situation of the army to sort of push a federal taxation plan. You remember Americans aren't too keen on taxes. Washington's going to stop this, and he's going to remind his men of their duty to what he calls sacred honor, the words of the Declaration of Independence and say, look what we have achieved. If you do this now, it's all for naught. You will risk it all. And he's not sure his men are moved, but then he pulls out a pair of glasses. No one's seen them in glasses, aside from a very few people. And he says, gentlemen, I have grown old and blind in your service. And all the officers start crying.

And basically, Washington wins them over with the cunning use of glasses. The whole thing, is it planned? Is it not planned? But it basically shows the army is going to conform to civilian supremacy. And then Washington follows this up shortly later in December 1783, December 23rd, 1783, by surrendering his commission to Congress, not becoming a Caesar, not becoming an Oliver Cromwell, not becoming a Napoleon. And I think that's his greatest military achievement. It forms the basis of civilian control of the military that still exists in the United States today. And the basis, obviously control of the military that still exists in the United States today. And the basis, obviously, of him giving up power again as president.

Because it was all there for him. He could have marched at the head of those men into New York, and he would have been a Cromwell that afternoon. One of his officers, an Irish-born, actually suggests that Washington take up the crown. And you actually have British officers, particularly Sir Guy Carlton, who is the commander in chief, believes there's no way a republic can work in America. It just won't happen. There has to be some form of monarch. George III is likewise, he's like, this must be what's happening. So the famous line of book I'm working on, George III is going to be shocked and he's going to ask his portrait painter, like you do, who is an American, what's Washington going to do if America is independent? And then portrait

painter replies, he's going to go retire to private life. And then George III replies, if he does that, then he'll be the greatest man in the world. So recognition of what was so different about this, going back to a sort of classical Cincinnatus and or Russell Crowe-esque performance. It's one of the great lines from George III there, and it's so astute as well. George Washington does go into partial retirement, but then accepts the offer of the presidency. What kind of president is he? Yeah, so it's sort of like, you know, Godfather III, just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in. So the Articles of Confederation aren't so great. Washington comes back as president of the Constitutional Convention.

First president wins unanimously. He doesn't run. He just sort of hangs out at home and then someone shows up. You've won. Oh, I never could have thought. Of course he knew. So he wins unanimously. As a president, he's the first. So everything he does is new. Everything he does sets a precedent for those who come later. He has an advantage in that he is such a monumental American figure that there's really no one else who could do this job at that point. So he has the buy-in, the respect of the American people. So everything he's doing is legitimizing the government, legitimizing the Constitution. And he takes the Constitution very seriously. And he says the Constitution is the guide from which I will never abandon.

And if you look at his copy of the, he has actually has a personal copy, bound copy of the constitution. You could see it today at Mount Vernon. And he annotates it in the margins of what powers are reserved for the president. It's not a lot of notation, but he sticks to that. These are the powers I have. Kings and popes. Who were rarely the best of friends. Murder, rebellions. And crusades. Find out who we really were. By subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. Wherever you get your podcasts. He does take some license in expanding the cabinet.

He famously is without party and fills his cabinet with individuals who are from different political perspectives and Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson. There's debate, is he really without party? He certainly leans Federalist who is in favor of stronger federal government. He is very much putting the nation first, nation above party, federal government. He is very much putting the nation first, nation above party, nation above self, nation above any other sort of agreements. So one of his more controversial acts is present is in 1793, France is in the midst of the revolution. They're at war with, well, everyone. And they call in the Treaty of Alliance from 1778 that was sparked by the Battle of Saratoga. And they call for aid.

Will you help us fight for liberty, brothers? And Washington has to take the interpretation that America cannot go to war with Britain or anyone else at that moment. He has to preserve the nation. And he creates a statement of neutrality, which is going to be obviously shocking to the French. But the idea was, well, was this treaty with the French nation, the French people, the French king, lawyer Alexander Hamilton, he takes the, well, that was with the French king, chopped his head off, treaty null and void. So this is really going to be a controversial issue,

but it really shows that Washington is trying to put the nation first, preserve the nation. And you see this again, when he gives up power after two terms, setting another precedent and giving his farewell address where he warns of many things, entangling foreign alliances, address where he warns of many things, entangling foreign alliances, political parties, and sectional or regional loyalty. So he gets a lot of things right. His words are as important today as they ever were. To what extent is the character of the presidency, but also the character of America itself, the federal government, how much of that is because of his upholding his interpretation of

that constitution as that first practitioner? Yeah, I get accused of saying Washington's responsible for everything. So maybe I'm over exaggerating, but I think he kind of is at the root of all of it. Again, he's there at the constitutional convention. If he does not preside, he does not lend his status, his reputation to it, it may not work. It may not even happen. I think he definitely establishes the presidency. And then there's lots of, if you look at it today, the modern presidency, you see elements of Washington there. We just had the State of the Union in the US last night, and this is something Washington starts. Granted, he wrote his out and sent it. He wasn't a big public speaker. Also,

he has the shortest presidential inauguration address in history. I don't think we're going to get to that again. But he basically sets the precedent for everything to do with the presidency. And he also gives that authority to the US Constitution. So if Washington is for it, it's pretty hard to go against it. Even if you have political rivals, people that disagree with him, for the American people, it's tough to go against Washington. And it even becomes tougher after his death when he becomes deified. to sort of say he's a great hero in his early life. He becomes a demigod after the revolution and he becomes like a full-blown god or civic god after his death. So he's basically the bar.

It's funny, isn't it? Because partly because of Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address or Martin Luther King's speeches, we talk a lot about the constitution. And actually, we should probably also, therefore, your argument is that we should talk as much about Washington, who could easily have taken the young republic down a different path in terms of executive power. Yeah, there's obviously others involved in this too. I don't want to say it's Washington alone, but he is that figure that's really pushing it forward.

When you have others that are maybe more politically motivated, he is very much nation first, stick to the Constitution. Others argue about the interpretation, and he does too. But he shows a willingness to deal with multiple sides and to say from very early, even during the American Revolution, it is nation first. It is civilian government first. Then we worry about all the rest of it. He believes in the transfer of power. Yeah. And he gets some flack because like, well, people knew history was paying attention. Well, yeah, he does, but he still does it. How many people have not? Yeah, for sure. Amazing guy. Thank you so much for coming on and talking does it. How many people have not? Yeah, for sure. Amazing guy. Thank you so much for coming on and talking about it. I hope to get a chance to chat with you over

the course of the next few years, hitting all these big 250th anniversaries. We can get into some of the detail of the story as those milestones pass us by. Tell everyone what your book is called. The book I have out now is called American Honor, the Creation of the Nation's Ideals During the Revolutionary Era. So it's basically an ethical history of the American Revolution, centered in Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams. And the new one I'm working on is called The Greatest Man in the World, a Global History of George Washington, which is going to look at how all the other nations of the world

looked at Washington. And he is represented on every continent of the world looked at Washington. And he is represented on every continent of the world, even Antarctica. Thank you very much indeed for coming on the show. Thanks for having me. you