Dan Snow's History Hit - Gone Medieval

Episode Date: May 18, 2021

Dan is joined by the wonderful Cat Jarman who, along with Matt Lewis, will be presenting History Hit's brand new podcast Gone Medieval. They discuss the medieval period, the new podcast, Dan and Cat's recent road trip and the exciting new Viking site that has been discovered. Plus there is a sample for the brilliant new podcast Gone Medieval.

Hi everyone, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. I've just run in off the beach. I've spent all day filming a new show for History Hit TV. We've been going up and down the south coast of England looking for D-Day embarkation areas. The archaeology of D-Day does a lot of it about. There are tanks that sunk during exercises. There are shipwrecks of D-Day landing craft that were brought back here and discarded. There are huge eroding concrete slabs leading into the sea, slowly being gnawed away by the ocean, where once, on the 3rd, the 4th, the 5th of June 1944, men and vehicles loaded for the greatest amphibious assault of all time.

For some of those men, it would be the last time they ever touched dry ground. Some never made it to the beaches. It's been a very special project. You can obviously subscribe to historyhit.tv in order to watch that documentary. It's going out on the anniversary of D-Day. Head over to historyhit.tv and check it out but in the meantime i've got a very special pod for you i've got dr kat jarman she's been on the pod before many times she's written her wonderful book about the viking age and in fact her book

was so brilliant we invited her to start a medieval pod for team History here, along with Matt Lewis, one of our other favourite medieval historians. In this little introduction, I talked to Kat a little bit about the medieval period, about Vikings, about her new pod, and how she thinks she might have discovered another brand new Viking site in the north of England. This, everyone, is Kat Jarman, and she is going medieval. Enjoy. Kat, great to have you back on the pod. Yeah, great to be back. Okay, the big question that people have been asking me, when is the medieval period? Right, so there's lots of different ways of defining it.

Yes, let's go. Okay, broadly speaking, we could say from pretty much after the Roman period, so around about 500 AD-ish, and then going all the way up to 1500 AD. And that's the very wide view of it. Another definition is just the sort of later, so after the Viking Age. But really, we divide into kind of early and the sort of high or later medieval period, really. And that encompasses a whole millennium. We've talked about this on the pod before.

Does it have a bad rep? It does, really. For a lot of people, this is a period where either nothing really exciting happens or it's all very negative. So what happens is not great for people as maybe wars and battles. negative. So what happens is not great for people as maybe wars and battles. But I think people have a bit of a misconception that life in the Middle Ages is pretty dreadful. And they're called the Dark Ages to a lot of people. This idea that there's not a lot of technology, religion is the centre of the universe. And I think that's really why it's got such a bad reputation. What I find so interesting about your recent work and many scholars is the emphasis on kind of continuity,

both from the classical world at the beginning of the period, but also into the kind of early modern. The early modern just doesn't birth from nowhere. Absolutely. I mean, obviously, I'm a bit biased because this is where I've spent my life and dedicated my life to studying this time period. But I think the Middle Ages really is the starting point of so many of those things that are to come later that we sort of recognize more in the modern world. And those, again, also didn't come out of nowhere. They all have roots in the earlier period. So actually, to make this division, it's a little bit arbitrary, really, because it is a great big continuum, really. But I think what's so fascinating is so many things like kingdoms and nations. I mean, look at England. That really becomes a country, becomes a nation

in the Middle Ages, the early Middle Ages. And a lot of other countries across not just Western Europe, but actually other parts of the world as well. This is really when they start to take form. That's so true. I mean, I guess the Scandinavian world, you know a huge amount about. In the 5th century, there weren't really recognisable kingdoms that now cover the same kind of territory as the modern countries that we now recognise. No, absolutely. There was lots of smaller kingdoms. But then in what we call the Viking Age or the end of the early medieval period, that's when the countries that we now know as Denmark, Sweden and Norway all formed at the end of that period. So that's

a really great example where actually what we then know as those modern countries, that's really where it all starts. So that's absolutely one of the really key points. And another is how religion becomes a part of that and how really so much of Western Europe becomes Christianized throughout this period, some places earlier than others, but certainly towards the sort of high Middle Ages, Christianity has taken a proper foothold across all of Western Europe. And also, if it's not lacrytistic, globalization. Yes, and that's one of the things that I'm very interested in, especially. I think that's really when we can start to see what we now refer to as globalization, often think of as quite a modern

concept. This really originates much earlier. And I would argue that in the Middle Ages, especially the early Middle Ages, that's when this happens on a much more of a sort of global scale. We have a lot of networks, we have a lot of connections in various places before that. But this is really when it starts to take on new proportions and where suddenly you can get really rapid links between the westernmost parts of Europe, so Britain, for example, and right the way into the Middle East and into Asia. And that's something quite new that really starts in the Middle Ages. Middle Ages, is it a useful category for non-European history? If you're looking at South Asian, East Asian, African history, and of course the Americas, but is it a useful designation?

Probably not so much, no. A lot of those other regions will also be affected by this ripple effect of what's happening in Europe, often with some devastating consequences. So I think the best thing ideally is to look at each region on its own. If you think about Southern Africa, for example, actually, you've got people living as hunter-gatherers in what we still define as the Stone Age up until about the 9th century when farming comes in. So the idea of the Middle Ages in that area is absolutely not a helpful one at all. So it's difficult to try and impose that same terminology, that same category all over the

world. But what is useful is to take that point in time and go, okay, this is what's happening in Western Europe. What is happening in Africa? What is happening in Asia and the Americas, and sort of start to try and pull those together and get a different perspective and not just focusing right on where we are placed in Western Europe. And as your recent work has shown, there's a lot of exchange going on between these parts of the world now as well in this period. Absolutely. And trade really is what's driving that whole sort of globalisation aspect. That's what we're seeing. That's why it's happening. We also have things like conquest and people trying to spread and religion spreading and so on. But trade and trading networks, that's the catalyst for contact between East and West and North and South.

We've got this medieval podcast launching and you're hosting and I love the fact we're getting away from this idea that it's just the kind of high medieval like 13th, 14th century sieges and actually you're reminding us there's a whole bunch of medieval history in there that we need to make sure we're not overlooking. Absolutely I think we need to get out of our little comfort zone a little bit and try and get away from that idea that so many of us have in our heads when we think of what the medieval really is and just treat this as a millennium, a sort of point in time between 500 and 1500 and go, what is happening? What are the connections? Can we see ripples from a stone thrown into the Indian Ocean going right the way

up to Northern Europe? And what does that matter? Because I think when we do that, when we go away from our very standard, typical idea of the medieval world, that's when we can really start to understand the effects the period has and what is to come later on. It's been hard to drag you away from the Viking period. There's a lot of Vikings going on this pod,

but that's because there's a lot more to find out and you keep turning up new stuff. Yeah, it's hard to leave it when you think you've got it all sorted. And then suddenly a new discovery comes along and start to change what you think you already knew. What kind of areas are you looking at at the moment for breaking news when it comes to our Viking ancestors? So I'm researching the Viking Great Army, especially in the 9th century, and those who come into England and essentially start to become some of the first settlers, but at this point are absolutely after political conquest and raiding. popping up. So I've been focusing a lot on central England and then also into southern England. But one place we haven't known that much about until now is the very north of England. But fortunately for us, new sites are coming up and we have made just one of those

discoveries very, very recently, which we are going to be telling people about. You're listening to Dan Snow's History Hit. we're talking to cat jarman about her new medieval podcast enjoy land a viking longship on island shores scramble over the dunes of ancient egypt and avoid the poisoner's cup in rena Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series, Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories,

listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. We are so lucky at History Hit that you are now on our team because you're bringing all your amazing research to us. I can't believe it. It's so awesome. And you and I went on a road trip across England as well. It was super fun. Yes, that was brilliant.

So looking at some of those sites that we know about and some of them that we don't yet. We speculated. We speculated. We did. I think we came up with some really quite good hypotheses, didn't we? Yeah, well, you did. I was surprised how much it's still quite uncharted. I mean, there are still features. There are still places that you were going,

oh, God, I need to have a look at this. This could be an overlooked Viking site. I mean, it really is an area where the next decade or two, we're going to be learning a huge amount more. Absolutely and these things keep on happening and I think because we've focused quite a lot on the written sources up until quite recently we're now starting to understand that the objects the artifacts can tell us and things like metal detectings are having a massive effect so we need to go back and interrogate some of those assumptions. So when you and I went on our road trip, we were looking at lots of mounds, for example, burial mounds. And

when I went back and looked at the records, I realised nobody had actually researched them properly. And all these assumptions were made about what they dated to. So there's a lot of those earlier assumptions that actually now that we've got all this new knowledge, we've got new technology, we need to go back over it. And that's why I'm still so excited about the Viking Age and probably never will stop. Well, I think that's almost certainly true. But to be fair, it must be quite fun for you on this pod because you're going to be looking at medieval history much more generally. Yeah, and that's a really exciting opportunity because it's great to look at all the topics and go, okay, what is interesting to know about what's new who is writing or researching or studying periods maybe

we didn't know so much about and trying to to do that exactly what I was saying earlier getting out of the comfort zone a little bit and it's a fantastic way to get the absolute top experts to come and talk about what they do so I'm really really excited I feel quite lucky and privileged to be able to do that and get them to spend half an hour or so talking about all these topics. Well, Kat Charman, let's listen to some highlights of your pod now.

Get everyone all excited. So the historical records do mention then that the great army or at least part of the great army goes north and goes actually into northumbria what exactly do they say and who we've got some names haven't we yeah we do and it's interesting because a lot of different written sources all say the same thing which is that a viking leader Halfdan, so one of the leaders of the great army, takes part of the troops there and they all agree, all the sources agree, that he enters Northumbria on the Tyne. So we're confident that along the Tyne somewhere is a Viking army base. But so far nobody's really worked out where that was. There is no evidence whatsoever there have been suggestions based on likely

positions like Tynemouth itself is a likely location because there were some Anglo-Saxon monasteries there and maybe that was a source of wealth for the Vikings there was a natural harbour in that area so it's been suggested that maybe they didn't sail that far down the Tyne and stayed near the coast but really we have no physical evidence. So we know Halfdan goes north we know he comes here but then what does he do I mean what else happens and could you possibly say a little bit more about the context of this kingdom of Northumbria you know what else was here what could he have wanted? He's already taken York so the Viking army have taken York in the 860s York is the centre of the Northumbrian Anglo-Saxon kingdom at that stage.

There are other centres that become very important. So Bamba, further north on the coast, and of course Lindisfarne, which the Vikings have earlier raided. And these monasteries I just mentioned around the mouth of the Tyne, a cluster of Anglo-Saxon monasteries also raided much earlier on around 800 by the Vikings. So this is an area that Vikings have previously attacked and extracted wealth out of but when we join them again in the 870s they're still interested in raiding but we're in a different phase of viking activity where raiding is soon turning to settlement let's bring it back to the new discovery and the reason why

we're up here why we were shivering in a very rainy wet april field today how did this new discovery come about what was it that made you narrow in on this particular location because the historical sources just mentioned the time but we're much further north than that so we've traveled up the Northumbrian coast during the beautiful Coquit Valley and the site first came to light from the metal detector finds and these metal detectors have been working the site for around 15 years they've been carefully recording where they discovered their finds reporting it to the national portable antiquity scheme and that has allowed us to identify this

site as really significant in its regional context and that's what first drew us here there was a lovely assemblage of viking age material not standout stuff not kind of gold and silver that attracts a lot of attention but actually more mundane pieces that nonetheless we tie now to viking camps and the great army so we have a selection of lead gaming pieces for instance so pieces that would have been used as markers on boards that members of the great army are playing during their copious downtime in between raiding activities whiling away their time in the same muddy field we were in today there are lots of anglo-saxon dress accessories although they're anglo-saxon they turn up at

viking camps we're not really sure how they're being used but these are fittings for belts and pins and things like that and also the local coinage which isn't actually a silver coinage but which is copper alloy so it's a very kind of low denominational coinage but it's a recurring feature at Viking campsites and we have it here. Yeah so that's the key isn't it this is essentially now we recognize as a kind of signature for these great army camps and they don't happen before we start hearing about the great army sites. And they don't really happen afterwards either. So, you know, if you go into the 900s, you don't get that same signature.

You don't get the gaming pieces. They seem extremely specific. And we know because we have them at somewhere like Repton, where we've got the historically documented evidence, you can use that evidence and you can sort of take that elsewhere. So that all fitted really well,'t it it did and the coinage is especially helpful because then we can say it's not an exact date that it offers but we can say this was coinage produced in the 850s 860s it points us towards a certain period of use so it's not purely guesswork you know we have some dating evidence there so we think this happens after 873 and you think it's not purely guesswork you know we have some dating evidence there.

So we think this happens after 873 and you think it's quite soon after in the next year or two probably? I do because the historical sources are clear that it's 875 that the Viking army part of the army heads to the Tyne and there the sources say Halfdan raided among the Picts and the Strathclyde Britons. These are populations of Scotland and northwest England and southern Scotland towards the west coast. These are populations further north than where we are now so it makes sense that the Viking Great Army is on the Tyne, they're heading up further north to raid in these northern zones and on the way they pass the coquette so the coquette is a river that goes from the north sea and a bit further inland and then the site is in that valley so it's accessible from the coast exactly it's perhaps best known today for walkworth castle which is a prominent local feature but also

on the coast itself you have coca islands a very small island today it's a bird reserve but a very convenient navigational waypoint so if you were sailing up the coast you come to this island you can turn in at modern day amble where're sitting now, and you can row up the river. It fits into that pattern. We've got the objects that sort of scream Viking Great Army at us. And it makes sense as a location. We know that some of them went up here. But let's talk a little bit more in sort of like general terms about the site.

Because that's another thing that we've been trying to understand in recent years. These campsites, these locations that were used by the vikings we know that they spend the winter there so some of it is literally somewhere you can shelter and you can settle they need to be defendable essentially you need to be able to make sure you keep people safe it used to be thought that these were fortifications because sometimes in the records they talk about fortifications we don't have any evidence or any sign of fortifications here do we and instead they are taking advantage of something else the site is a naturally defensive site it's an area of high ground with quite steep falls on at least three sides easy access to the river which is great for looking out and keeping an eye on potential enemies and it also gives you access if you need to get out to the coast to get away.

So we're not necessarily looking for built structures, the supports or ditches necessarily but we're more looking for a prominent position in the landscape that takes advantage of the natural features because these sites are temporary sites these are very short-lived probably a year or so maybe they come back after a little while but they these are not permanent settlements so we need to understand these is not sites that people are going to invest a great deal in terms of more permanent structures. So really when we continue with our excavations we're not really likely to find we're not going to find buildings we're not going to find anything major like that I mean what do you think we're going to find when we continue? I hope very much we'll find more finds like more small finds small pieces of metal work which are so informative about this

site we might find some burials one of the really interesting things about this site is that it is not just occupied in the viking age there is evidence for earlier anglo-saxon activity high status anglo-saxon activity whether this is something like a market site or more likely a cemetery is yet to be seen but there's clearly early Anglo-Saxon activity and going back even earlier there's Roman activity which is really interesting this far north here we're well north of Hadrian's Wall there's late Roman activity which you don't get a lot of in Northumberland and it might be connected to the building of the Antonine Wall even further north than where we are now so this has a longer history I guess this site it's a site that the Vikings didn't necessarily

have to identify for themselves as somewhere prominent they would have been attracted to an already high status site so there could possibly even have been some earlier features and actually we were walking around today we were looking at some of our maps drone images and lidars images and so on and looking for some sites that you know perhaps somebody else perhaps the romans had built something there before we're a bit uncertain at the moment so we've got to go back and investigate but it's quite possible that that could have been there indeed and if we think about Torksey for instance they do actually have a Roman villa in the middle of that site unclear about what would have been visible or in use at

that stage but it was a site that was occupied in the Roman period as well as then being occupied later by the Viking great army and I suspect it's highly likely that we have Roman activity and going back even earlier Iron Age activity it's a classic Iron Age fort source of sight. And actually other sites like Thetford as well for example where we again there's another winter camp we've not yet identified but that also has a very prominent Iron Age hill fort so there are fortifications again it's located by a river so it it fits that pattern extremely well, which is quite exciting. I feel we have the history on our shoulders. All this tradition of ours, our school history, our songs,

this part of the history of our country, all were gone and finished. I've got just a quick message at the end of this podcast. I'm currently sheltering in a small windswept building on a piece of rock in the Bristol Channel called Lundy. I'm here to make a podcast. I'm here enduring weather that frankly is apocalyptic because I want to get some great podcast material for you guys. In return, I've got a little tiny favour to ask. If you could go to wherever you get your podcasts, if you could give it a five-star rating, if you could share it, if you could give it a review, I'd really appreciate that. Then from the comfort of your own homes, you'll be doing me a massive favour. Then more

people will listen to the podcast, we can do more and more ambitious things, and I can spend more of my time getting pummeled. Thank you. you