Dan Snow's History Hit - Greek War of Independence

Episode Date: March 25, 2021

200 years ago the banner was raised which marked the beginning of the Greek War of Independence that would lead to their freedom from the Ottoman Empire. It was also a globally significant war as it is one of the first examples of a people fired up with nationalist sentiment rising up against a big transnational empire. It would act as an inspiration for nationalist movements across the world leading eventually to the destruction of those empires around the world. The Greek cause was championed around the world by the Greek diaspora and classicists and volunteers, including Lord Byron, flocked to join the Greek cause. Eventually, after several years of struggle the Great Powers intervened to ensure that Greece obtained its independence. Paschalis Kitromilides, editor of The Greek Revolution: A Critical Dictionary, joins Dan to talk about the war, its significance within Greece and the wider world and how the shockwaves sent out by the Greek Revolution are still being felt throughout the Balkans and Eastern Europe.

Hello everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History It. What a day it is today. March the 25th, 2021 marks the 200th anniversary of the raising of the banner that marked the beginning of the Greek War of Independence. It was a war for Greek freedom from the Ottoman Empire which covered much of North Africa, the Middle East and Southeast Europe. But it's also a globally significant war because it's one of the first examples of a people fired up with new nationalist sentiment rising up against big transnational empires. The kind of sentiment that would eventually see the destruction of so many of the huge continental empires within 100, 150 of this greek uprising various members of the greek diaspora and various classicists abroad championed the greek cause around the world and eventually

the great powers would intervene to help greece secure her independence some volunteers like lord byron flocked to join the greeks fired up by messages appealing for help from the greeks like this one sent to america i like this one sent to America I love this one sent to America in November 1821 to the citizens of the United States it is your land that liberty has fixed her abode so you will not assuredly imitate the culpable indifference or rather the long ingratitude of the Europeans I love that um the war would gone for years but March the 25th marks the anniversary of its beginning so I thought I'd that the war would go on for years but March the 25th marks the anniversary of its beginning so I thought I'd get the wonderful

Pascalis Kytromidilis on to talk about the war its significance within Greece and the wider world and as he points out in this podcast the shockwaves sent out by the Greek revolution are still being felt right through the Balkans and Eastern Europe

this was a podcast recommended by one of our listeners. So thank you very much for alerting us to this anniversary. It is a super important one that we otherwise might have let slip. Everyone else, please let us know on social media or via the website historyhit.com if you'd like us to cover an exciting story. If you want to watch documentaries as well as listen to these podcasts, you can do so at historyhit.tv. I don't think we have any Greek revolutionary history on there. We've got a lot of greek history stretching way back yep we do so head over there and check out historyhit.tv whether you're into the stone age or the nuclear age we got it all in the meantime everyone enjoy this coming on the show thank you dan thank you for inviting me

it's a big anniversary this it's a it's a big moment how long before independence do we need to think of this campaign this this this war really that eventually led to Greek freedom? Well, you know, you can take a really very long-term view and make it the whole of the 18th century, the period of intellectual change, gradual secularization of thought and values and so forth, but with much higher pace from the 1770s, following the Azov-Turkish War of 1768-1774, there is really a discernible movement whereby some Greeks

gradually begin to think about their future in terms of an independent state. So this is gradually maturing. independent state. So this is gradually maturing. In the 1770s, there were hopes that the Russians may sponsor such a state in territories to be liberated following a war with the Ottomans. But then Greek political thought picks up and we have one author after another visualizing the future in terms of a modern state rather than in terms of the earlier oracular tradition which dreamt of redemption from Ottoman rule in terms of a resurrection of the medieval empire and so forth. After the 1770s, they began thinking in terms of a future nation-state on the models of what they think is happening in Western Europe. And of course, what were major turning points were first the American Revolution, and then

much more affirmatively the French revolution. The 1790s things began to get much more clear and articulate as to what the future of Greeks and the Greek territories would look like. It's very interesting isn't it because these freedom struggles from big transnational imperial entities like big empires it feels like this is a story in the late 19th early 20th centuries greece is very early on in getting this and was greece early in developing a kind of modern nationalist identity you know around language and around autonomy what was going on in greece in in 18th century? This is what is happening indeed. It is very slow and it is limited in its social basis in terms of who is beginning to think along those terms. But first, there is an idea that speaking Greek,

an idea that speaking Greek, you form part of a long continuum going back to the remotest antiquity, and this begins to introduce a sense of differentiation from the other Christian Orthodox groups and nationalities under Ottoman rule. Initially, all of them, they thought they were the same thing because they conceived themselves in terms of their religious identity. Gradually, with the introduction of language and the politicization of the sense of the future in terms of an independent state, you have a modern sense of nationality being introduced and gradually through education working its way downwards into larger social groups producing a sense of a modern nation. So this is happening at an increasing pace.

We can follow that in the sources. In decade after decade, you can see it registered in the print culture that comes out and registers these thoughts. And what is very interesting is also a whole reorientation of the sense of historical time. And we have some milestones which can help us, in a way, see the signposts of this change. In the year 1750 there is a Greek translation of an important French historical work about ancient history, Charles Rollin, a very important French author who had published earlier in the 18th century a work, a multi-volume work entitled Istouaronci, an Ancient History.

It has volumes on Middle Eastern civilizations, Egyptians, Persians, Assyrians, and so forth, but then it focuses on the Greeks. And the Greeks translate that in the year 1750, and they begin using it as a textbook in schools. And this is telling people and children of these people who are speaking modern Greek that look these people who lived in the same areas and spoke ancient Greek are really related to us and they come to think of them as ancient ancestors. And this really is a very drastic change because they think of their lineage going back to a pagan ancient people, different from the Jews. The Jews think along an unbroken continuity in terms of religion.

The Greeks have gone through a radical break in the religious identity, but then they are discovered through cultural and linguistic ties. This remote Greek antiquity which makes them feel as different, separate national communities. All of this creates, in a way, expectations expectation that this national community eventually would claim its own national state. The French example is very important when the French armies and agents of revolutionary France begin roaming Europe and spreading these ideas of the sovereignty of the nation versus the sovereignty of the nation versus the sovereignty of kings. This happened in Paris in the 1790s

and we have a Greek testimony of that. The most important Greek author of the Enlightenment, Corail, is an eyewitness of the moment when the royal family in France is forced to move from Versailles to Paris to be close to their subjects. And they emerge from the courage which brought them. Instead of being hailed by Christ, long live the king, they are greeted by vive la nation. At this moment, you see this transition, which is really world historical, from legitimacy residing in dynasties and monarchical government by the grace of God, moving to the nation, to the collective community, which understands itself in cultural and political terms. Well, the Greeks are picking up all of that and they are combining

it with the sense that this monarch, the absolute despot who rules over us, is not only an agent of arbitrary rule but it's also foreign. It doesn't belong to our nation, to our group. foreigner doesn't belong to our nation to our group different religion different language different ethnic identity so we have to get our own state and this is really revolutionary and in the 1790s this is gradually taking shape and getting a revolutionary movement uh moving and eventually would sweep across the world over the next 200 years. No society would be free of it. And the Greeks were early into it. And I guess that nationalism weakened the Ottoman Empire from the beginning

because by the 1820s Greece was no longer dealing with the great superpower that the Ottomans had once been. I mean, breaking away, beating them in a war was now a reasonable proposition, was it? Yes, yes.

In the 1820s, things are very different in Europe than what they had been back in the period from 1789 to 1815, the period of the French Revolution. In 1814, 1815, the French Revolution was defeated and the Congress of Vienna brought back 1815, the French Revolution was defeated. The Congress of Vienna brought back the old legitimate monarchs, the old sort of legitimist understanding of government by putting back monarchs on their thrones. They imposed what they called restoration on Europe. And in this, of course, they formed the Holy Alliance,

the three absolutist powers, the Hague Empire, Austria, Prussia, and Russia, all ruled by absolutist monarchs. They formed the Holy Alliance. And with them, Britain and Restoration France formed the concept of Europe as a kind of supervising authority to make sure that the people remained quiet. And in the year 1820, there was the first outbreak, a revolution in Naples. It was put down by Austrian forces. Then there was another islet in Turin in northernples. It was put down by Austrian forces. Then there was another ISIS in Turin in northern

Italy. That was also put down. And a couple of months later, there was another revolution in Greece. And that greatly displaced the powers, but they didn't manage to put that down. They managed to live on for 10 years, securing eventually an independent state for the Greeks. So what has been written about the United States many years ago by a great American scientist, Martin Lipset, that the United States, when it became independent, was the first new nation. Lipset was responding to the idea of the new nations

which were emerging from the breakup of the colonial empires in the 1960s, British Empire, French Empire, and so forth. So people were speaking of new nations at the time. And Lipset said, but the first new nation, it was us, the United States. Now I say, but the second new nation after the United States were the Greeks, who managed to get their sovereign state in the 1820s, the first such case

in Europe after the imposition of the Restoration. So this was a very important example, which had far-reaching implications for all nations around Europe. First, for people in Italy, in Central Europe, and so forth, which were understanding themselves as distinct nationalities and wanted their own national states. That's why there was so much appeal through the Philhellenic movement. much appeal through the Philhellenic movement. Then to people who were looking forward for important reforms in their own countries, like people in Britain who were supporting the reform movement in Britain, reform of the electoral system, the system of parliamentary representation, and so forth. All of this, they become Philhellenists because through supporting the freedom of

the liberation of the Greeks, they were also supporting liberal causes at home. And the most important such confluence of ideals was the abolitionist movement in the United States. In the United States, there was important support, an important Hellenic movement, and the same people who were supporting the independence of the Greeks, they were supporting the abolition of slavery in the southern states of the United States. Therefore, the Greek revolution was functioning on all these different levels, and this ascribed to the claim of Greek independence, a kind of international significance that made it,

as one historian has recently put it, the most international of all revolutions. You're listening to Dan Snow's History Hit. I've got Pascalis Kytromelidis on the podcast. We're talking about the anniversary of the start of the Greek War of Independence. More coming up after this. Land a Viking longship on island shores.

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a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. That's a nice way of putting it it was very bloody within greece and the aegean world how important was that international aspect you know i've been to the the site of the battle of navarino where the british and french fleet uh destroyed a turkish fleet i mean was that merely the the straw that broke the camel's back? And was Greek resistance essential? Or did the outside powers, was this a kind of great power war as much as anything else? Well, the great powers were drawn into it originally by their own antagonists. Once

the revolution managed to survive and linger on, despite civil war among the Greeks, as it always happens in all revolutions, beginning with the English Revolution in the 17th century and the French Revolution in the 18th century, revolutions bring civil conflicts. So, there were civil conflicts in the Greek Revolution, but still the revolution managed to survive. It was spreading different parts of the Greek world, which is not very extensive territorially, but it is very complex territorially with mountains, regions, islands, and so forth. So, all of these areas were stirred up by revolution. The Greeks managed to keep the revolution going. There is an island in the eastern Aegean, Samos,

which is about one nautical mile from the coast of Asia Minor. And the Turkish armada besieged Samos, and they never managed for 10 years to lay foot on that island because the islanders resisted so well. So gradually, with the revolution managing to survive and keep going, the powers were drawn into it in the sense that the antagonists between themselves, especially between Russia and Britain, would dictate some kind of involvement so that what would come out of the revolution would not fall under the exclusive influence of one power or the other. And France was also drawn in and the three powers concluded a treaty finally between themselves that they would try to bring pacification of Greece after seven years of fighting,

which involved also a tremendous human cost. Many humanitarian tragedies were going on. So they sent their fleets. The fleets arrived at the Navarino Bay, which is a natural port of great significance because it's totally protected. a natural port of great significance because it was totally protected. And it has all these associations with ancient history from Homer's times through the Peloponnesian War. And then this flare-up of historical significance with the Battle of Navarino.

And they were there monitoring the situation. And accidentally, they got into a naval battle and they annihilated the Turko-Egyptian fleet. That sealed the prospect of the independence of Greece. The Egyptian armies were forced to withdraw from the Peloponnese, but none of that would make sense if the revolution hadn't been kept alive. And although the Egyptian armies, which had managed to put down the revolution on the island of Crete, were roaming up and down the Peloponnese, there were points in the Morea

Peninsula which were not overrun by the Egyptians. Therefore, the revolution was going through The revolution was going through phases of recovery every once in a while. And this made possible the eventual beginning of discussions as to the future of Greece. And at that point, it was Britain which finally insisted on an independent and sovereign state, not a form of autonomous principalities as the case had been with the Danubian principalities up in Romania and as eventually the Serbs would get. Although the Serbs had revolted first, they began their revolution in 1804. They kept going at intervals, but eventually in 1831, they got an autonomous principality,

whereas the Greeks got a sovereign state. And that was very important. Not that that was either a significant politically or militarily independent state, but symbolically it was very, very significant because it was telling people around Europe and around the world, those years people were revolting in South America also, that through revolution, through claiming modern liberty, peoples, nations could get their sovereign statehood. And this is what, in a way, made Greece the focus of so much attention in this period. Well, it wouldn't be the last time the Balkans sucked in great powers as the Ottoman Empire

collapsed. And within 100 years, obviously, the First World War would start in that neck and neck. So Greece is a very important trailblazer, as you say, for nations all over the world in terms of the national struggle against empire, but also just in that region of the world. It was very important because the other Christian nationalities in the Balkans, the Serbs had already revolted. The Romanians had revolted in 1821. And they tried to coordinate with the Greeks,

who actually had started the revolt in February 1821, up in Moldavia and Wallachia, but that movement collapsed. But it created a kind of precedent for the future of the Romanian principalities as an independent state. Many Bulgarians, people originating in the Bulgarian regions, took part actually in the Greek War of Independence, many Albanians also. So all of these nationalities were participating in the revolution of the Greeks, and some

of them were beginning to think of their own future liberation and formation of national states. And that's why the Greek Revolution was not a war of liberation only for the Greeks, but it signaled movements of liberation for the rest of the Balkans. Tomorrow, the University of Koritsa, Korče, in southern Albania, is organizing a meeting, an event, marking the anniversary of the Greek War of Independence. Why? Because the Greek Revolution was significant for them also, as the initiation of self-determination in the Balkans, which eventually carried all of these people to freedom. And, of course, at the very end of the 18th century, a Greek visionary who was inspired by the ideas of revolutionary France, Rikas Velestinlis, was in a revolutionary pamphlet inviting all of the other ethnic groups, nationalities, and

religious groups in the Balkans, including Muslims and Turks, to join in a revolt against despotism. This did not have a kind of sense of national confrontation against the Ottomans, but it was against despotism, against arbitrary and despotic rule. And all of these groups were invited to join. Therefore, from that base, the struggle of the Greeks is kind of shared heritage for all other Balkan groups and nationalities.

We see that the national struggle which began in the 1820s is still going on, actually, with new nationalities emerging in the Balkan region and also in Eastern Europe following the breakup of Yugoslavia or the Soviet Empire. We have all these new states emerging and claiming their identity, the recovery of their past, the redefinition of their past, as a kind of basis to visualise a future of freedom and the rule of law. Absolutely. Pascalis, thank you very much indeed for coming on on this huge, auspicious anniversary day.

What is your book called? The Greek Revolution, A Critical Dictionary. Go and get it, everybody. Thank you very much, Pascalis. Thank you. Thank you, Doug. I feel we have the history on our shoulders. All this tradition of ours, our school history, our songs,

this part of the history of our country, all were gone and finished. hope you enjoyed the podcast just before you go bit of a favor to ask i totally understand if you don't want to become a subscriber or pay me any cash money makes sense but if you could just do me a favor it's for free go to itunes or wherever you get your podcast if you give it a five-star rating and give it an absolutely glowing review, purge yourself, give it a glowing review, I'd really appreciate that. It's tough weather, the law of the jungle out there, and I need all the fire support I can get. So that will boost it up the charts. It's so tiresome, but if you could do it, I'd be very, very grateful. Thank you.