Dan Snow's History Hit - Guernsey: Voices of the Occupation

Episode Date: February 26, 2020

This year marks the 75th anniversary of the liberation of the Channel Islands. Dan went to meet four people who remember the war years on the islands and hear their experiences of occupation.

Hi everyone, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. Now over the last few months I've been working with the islands of Guernsey, that is Guernsey and the Channel Islands and the islands that surround it like Sark and Aldean Helm. I've been working with them to explore some of their rather remarkable Second World War history and the reason I've been doing that is because this year marks the 75th anniversary of their liberation by British forces following the E-Day. Amazingly after D-Day, after the fall of France, the German garrison in the Channel Islands was cut off and Churchill decided to leave them to

rot on the vine. No attempt was made to seize those islands back. So France was liberated, then Holland, Belgium, fighting movement of Germany, and the Channel Islands were still occupied by thousands and thousands of German soldiers, a time of great hardship, particularly for the inhabitants of those islands. So this year they are going to be celebrating hard. I attended Liberation Day last year. This year is going to be even bigger. I would advise you to head out to the islands of Guernsey

for that Liberation Day. It's going to be absolutely awesome. They know how to put on a party. I'll tell you that much. Get your gin drinking boots on. You're going to need need them so head out there they've got a massive festival going on and it will be a pretty cool place go visit particularly because you can see some of the things that were featured in my documentary on the irons of guernsey

some of the underground tunnels containing german military equipment great museums all that kind of stuff so head out there we're running a competition on the history hits web page we have a web presence as well guys you check it out history.com slash visit guernsey history.com slash visit guernsey that's guernsey spelled g-u-e-r-n-s-e-y and if you head over there you can enter a competition it closes on saturday the 29th of february so uh go and do it take advantage of the leap year that extra day go and sign up in this podcast i'm talking to some of the inhabitants of Guernsey and its islands, three who lived through the war, through the occupation on Guernsey itself, and one refugee who left Alderney and came back as soon as the war was finished. I talked to Molly Behay, I talked to Beda Thompson, I talked to

Dana Chesney, and I talked to Roy Damai. As you'll hear, they were fantastic storytellers. They've got vivid memories of what it was like being among the very few British subjects that lived under German occupation in the Second World War. The islands were occupied 80 years ago in June 1940 and they were liberated five years later in May 1945. If you like what you hear, you can go and check out the film I made featuring these four wonderful people and exploring the islands. It's called Secrets of Hitler's Island Fortress and it's on historyhit.tv. If you're listening to this podcast, use the code POD6, P-O-D-6,

you get six weeks for free. So you can go and watch that film for free. If you don't like it, don't subscribe. In the meantime, enjoy this one. I feel we have the history on our shoulders. All this tradition of ours, our school history, our songs, this part of the history of our country,

all were gone and finished and liquidated. One child, one teacher, one book, and one pen can change the world. In the spring of 1940, the British, the French and their allies suffered a catastrophic defeat in France and Belgium, 80 years ago. German armies tore the Allied armies in half, leaving troops up in the north left to surrender or escape back to the UK via Dunkirk, while France to the south was left to face overwhelming odds by itself. So when France surrendered just weeks later, the Channel Islands, owned by the British Crown but only a few miles off the French coast, were effectively indefensible. Bida Thompson was a young girl living in Alderney.

How old were you? Do you remember when the war came? Yes. I was sitting on the table in the front room at Devonshire House, which is now number one, the Hewlett, and I was sitting on the table and it came on about war has now been declared. So what did you think? Well, we were at war, but I didn't understand what it meant. Did you think it would affect your life here? No, it didn't, apparently, because they say it didn't in the First World War.

So you thought... It wasn't until we were actually being evacuated that we knew something was up. How old were you? I was 12 in the March and we left in the June. No! It didn't enter my head what was what. And the last words, I might give away later on, the last words my mother said to her, she said to her, now don't ever

let your little sister, always keep your little sister. Look after your little sister, never apart, never be apart. And I kept my word. Because they tried to part us in England, you know, to go to different foster homes. And I said, no. My mother said, we mustn't be parted. And I still call her my little sister now, to her most annoyance. When the ship was leaving, what was it like waving goodbye to your mum? Were you scared?

No, they wouldn't come down. We say goodbye at the door, on the steps of Devonshire House, which is number one. But the worst part was Uncle Archie standing on some crates, waving goodbye when they were singing Old Angzyne. And I can't stand that bloody song to this day. That's the worst I broke down.

Not everyone evacuated. Roy Day was a school boy in neighboring guernsey he remembers the fierce debates within families about whether it was best to stay or go his dad made a firm decision so he said no way we're either all going or we're all staying and that's how we come to stay and my grandparents if you're saying we're staying they weren't going anywhere so there was only one uncle and aunt that evacuated my mother's other brother stayed as well was that the right decision you glad you stayed I think so yeah I think we was the right decision we all stayed together and you know I mean we know of youngsters who were evacuated and their parents were

left behind but I mean they had all sorts of difficulties when they came back they would have been five years away you you know, they'd left there as, you know, some of them as youngsters and come back as teenagers and, you know, I think they had all sorts of problems adjusting to life again with their parents. So I think it was a good thing. Others came to the same decision. My name is Molly Beha,, which is B. Het B. Hay. It's a French, but I'm going to be born of course. And I was almost nine when the Germans came lot of panic at the evacuation before then.

I think it was the most awful time of the year, of the five years really, was partly those evacuations because panic, people didn't know what to do. And we went down three times because my mother was going to come as a, wanted to come as a carer. But because of the ages of my sister and I, we were too old and we would have had to go with the school children and teachers and my mother didn't want to separate us because we were at different schools at the time. So three times we walked down to the harbour being crushed, panicky, people crying. It was awful and then we came back with our little bags and my father said right I, I'm going to have to stay,

look after my grandfather, grandfather and my uncle with his cripple, he was, so we stayed. And it was only my mother that showed quite a bit of, a lot of worry when the Germans arrived. But when we saw them, they were, she eventually did say she realised that they looked normal. She thought they were before the war, square headed.

And that was said. I shouldn't say that now, but that's before when we knew the Germans were doing these atrocities and different you know so much worry. But eventually she did venture out. She was a very great character as well. Why didn't you evacuate? Why? Well, first of all, my grandfather was really stubborn. And he wasn't going to move for any jury. He'd been born in the house and his grandfather had been, and his father had been born in the house and he was old to his certainty. The Germans landed on Guernsey on the 30th of June. Do you remember them arriving?

Yes, well, yes. We were told that they'd arrived at the aircraft, at the airport, which was contrary. But my mother was at that time. She wasn't going to go out. She decided she didn't want to eat a germ and she was so frightened. So we remember them arriving quietly and saw them eventually in the streets, which was not too bad for my age, I suppose younger children, but we were a bit worried

because my father might have had to have been sent away to join the forces. Thousands of German troops would be stationed on Guernsey and they needed somewhere to stay. So the Germans just kicked people out of their houses? That's right, but we want all these houses to be left to our troops. So we had to move out. Prior to that, they were going around any empty houses and taking furniture and what have you. and we got heard of this. And so we went into my uncle's house at that time, which was empty. Contrary to the pre-invasion scaremongering,

the occupiers did not immediately carry out atrocities. In fact, many memories of the time were of childhood adventure and excitement. Diana Chesney's family had also decided to stay. Yes, it was, because we were very naughty children and we didn't have a lot of control, I don't think, especially to begin with, because there were no schools left once everything had evacuated and the states didn't get round to organising the few teachers

that were left into schools for about, this was June, and not till well on to September, October. So we were really having quite a lovely holiday. It was nice weather, so that was good. Were you not scared of the Germans? No, not really. No, I think I obviously, we picked up sort of certain amount of apprehension from my mother who was English, she wasn't a Guernsey woman. And she was very apprehensive. But no, we soon got over that little problem. And so that was fine.

Roy felt the same way. Were you scared of the Germans? Not really, no. No. As I say, the majority of them were normal people, normal. As I say, they didn't want to be here any more than we wanted them here. I mean we had one day, my mother was out with us, my oldest brother and myself, and we came walking down the lane and there's a troop of perhaps 50 German troops all lined up they'd been obviously doing something or other and

they were about to be dismissed by the officer and sure enough as we more or less walked past they were dismissed And one of the German soldiers came across to me and my brother and said, come with me. And he took us to his billet and he cooked us a meal, you know, for the two of us. As I say, they were just ordinary kids of their own, back in Germany, and they didn't want to be here. So they weren't frightening in that way at all. And I mean, it was a big adventure for us as kids. I mean, it was a bad time for our parents and

whatever, you know, struggling to keep things going. But I mean as youngsters you didn't worry about that, you know. It was exciting to see, like, in the fields opposite where we were living, the Germans would go on like manoeuvres and you'd see them all rushing across the field to a bank and put fire and blanks over the field. That was all exciting to watch, you know, as youngsters. But tough for your parents? Tough for the parents, yeah. We went six weeks without bread, eh?

Well, one of our favourite things was to wrap up, because we had a farm, and horse manure. I was going to say a rude word. And we used to wrap it up in newspaper and then brown paper and put it in the road for the Germans to come and pick up. And then we used to sort of shout at them then, I suppose. Certainly, they were quite nice to children. I don't think we came across many who weren't friendly.

Other people did. Only quick thinking by Molly's mum stopped their family from being kicked out of their house. I was with my mother and the two Germans came. This was early in 41 and they were taking over all these places and we went to the top of the house. It was only an ordinary terraced house but lovely views and the Germans were saying yeah it's good good my mother was a bit troubled I'm sure at that time and then came down to the next landing it was a sea views and the harbour views they were interested in and course when we got there again yeah it, good. They're on the landing. With that, my mother just fell at their feet. And then she's moaning and she's groaning.

And I said, what's the matter, Mum? She says, shut up, I'm all right, she said. And she carried on. And I'm like, the German's boss is lost. I said, my mother is sick. I didn't know what was going on either. And she carried on and she was actually by their boots and they were concerned and they said, yeah, yeah, and they went off. And they didn't come back to take the house over locally but we had two searchers after and that's that was again different

but she fooled the Germans and to move out with my uncle my grandfather and family two or three hours you get just to take a few belongings or maybe a little bit longer so it wasn't a good time. Molly will never forget a run-in with a gang of occupiers after they'd been out for a night's drinking. And we were coming back through the town and these Germans were staggering coming up the road. And they came directly over to my mother and just with this gun, the gun stuck it into her chest. And we were very frightened, you know, just ran home after that. And we didn't go there anymore. We used to have the neighbours come in.

We used to climb, put them over the wall and back again after curfew. So that's the kind of thing we had to do to give a bit of entertainment. The occupiers didn't just bring garrison troops along. They also moved an army of forced labourers to Guernsey and the rest of the Channel Islands to turn them into fortresses of concrete and steel. To prevent the British from seizing them back. These forced labourers were treated appallingly. Well, we had at the bottom of my aunt's property, where we were staying by then, they had a massive big wooden hut that they'd built him in a field. And it was full of foreign labourers. And I mean, they had rags on their feet and things like that.

They just had nothing. And they were served watery soup every day, and they were really in a bad way. So if they could find something, they would. And one night, apparently, we had a chicken house in the garden and we had rabbits. We used to raise rabbits in those days for food. And we closed it up overnight. The door opened outwards. One of us would go through the chicken but one of us would go through the chicken opening and get inside and put metal bars across this door but one night they ripped that door right off

with hinges without us hearing a thing and of course all the rabbits were gone. We had one chicken and that was gone. They'd even taken an item of one of our clothes, even like a boy's thing, you know, a small thing. And that had been taken off the clothes, was on the clothesline. That had gone as well, you know. Even, you know, something to wrap around their feet. They'd grab it, you know. Were you, was your family angry about that or did you feel sorry for these?

We felt sorry for them really, yeah. And I mean they used to, on top of that, they'd serve them once, once in a while, they'd serve them red wine, give them red wine would you believe and of course their stomachs, it was all over the road. They just brought it all up, you know. But why they did that, only the Germans would know, you know. Why they'd serve them up something like that, when they were scrabbling around for food. Yeah. they were scrabbling around for food. My father tried perhaps to give us a cigarette now and again, but the Germans were always there,

and that would have been very bad, or would have been a big thing to help them all. We didn't actually see any kind of cruelty, but there was brave people that did and they reported one lady Salvation Army lady and she reported it and she could hear them screaming you know and she she wrote in my book she wrote and she wrote and complained to the police. And eventually she was put in prison and she died soon after in the hospital. So there was bravery in the islands, you know.

Land a Viking longship on island shores. scramble over the dunes of ancient egypt and avoid the poisoner's cup in renaissance florence each week on echoes of history we uncover the epic stories that inspire assassin's creed we're stepping into feudal japan in our special series Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. But what did the forced labourers look like?

Did they look different? Well, yes, they were shabby, of course. No shoes, string around their feet, poorly dressed and we used to see them next to our school that we went to at first. There was a hospital for the foreign workers next door so we used to see them queuing up these foreign workers at the gate. It wasn't very pleasant. Yeah, you could pick them out easily. They just had nothing. I mean, it was all sorts of stories went on

that they were building a seawall at Lankress and there's talk that if one of them collapsed and died on the job they just put him in the concrete wall. In Alderney as well, they had almost a concentration camp up there and I believe there was literally hundreds that died up in Alderney. A lot of them say that they were just thrown into the sea, things like that. You could never imagine people treating other people that way, you know, was shocking really. They all had German guards with them. And, for instance, when we were walking to school one day and they were building a telephone exchange not very far from where we lived

and there were a group of them walking along and, you know, their feet were wrapped up in rags and they they were in a terrible situation because they had no really they were starving them to death and one of them fell over and I can remember the guard who had a guard each end prodding him with a bayonet, and he couldn't get up. So two of the other prisoners picked him up and put him back on his feet. And we felt absolutely dreadful. What were they dressed in? Can you remember? Rags.

They didn't issue them with... They didn't seem to have any uniform to identify them. But they had terrible... The clothes that they... I suppose they actually, as the clothes got torn or anything, I don't know whether they tried to mend them but they had terrible clothes did anyone try and help them we've heard some people trying to smuggle food or cigarettes yes well cigarettes of course I don't think well I don't know we didn't have any cigarettes. My father actually smoked, but he'd, by then

he'd, so we didn't have any. We could have given them, but if they came round begging, my mother would give them something to eat to take off with them. But it, I mean, you, that was punishable. You know, I think a lot of people in Jersey did it and finished up in concentration camps. It was regarded as a dreadful thing by the Germans to feed the slave labourers, because they were slaves. As the war went on, conditions deteriorated for everyone on the islands. Germany was fighting on several fronts cut off from global trade by allied naval blockade

food was scarce as Molly told me You were hungry? Yes, yes we were potatoes to a family if my mother felt she had two or three hours she'd have to queue at the markets every morning, take her pram. But if the Germans were there, they'd be served first, of course, priority wherever they went. But she found it difficult, but she was always smiling.

She was always getting on with life as she could. I don't speak about it too often because she was so brave, really, and she did so much, especially liberation. Roy's dad was a caretaker in some of the island's many greenhouses. As food dwindled, they became ever more vulnerable to looting. Oh, that was going on. That was in the latter part of the war because they were so badly off for food themselves

that they were killing cats and dogs. Your dogs weren't safe. And this two or three times he caught Germans in the greenhouses. One of them just dived straight through the glass to get away from him. Another one was about to jump over a low wall and there was a quarry the other side before they grabbed him. And then another day my mother heard voices and she could hear this like the Germans shouting, RAUST! RAUST! I mean she thought, oh my god, they're marching, the old man. So she went out to have a look,

and he was marching this young German through the vineyard, threatening him with a shovel. And it was him who was shouting and rousting. But, I mean, they used to be... If they were caught stealing, they used to be really punished by their own people, you know. This is why they were so desperate to get away, because they knew they were for it.

So your dad wasn't scared of the Germans? No, not really, no. My mother thought many a time that the way he carried on, he was going to get shot. But no, he he survived yeah. Molly remembers the Germans searching her house for contraband food. That's the other time when Germans searched our house. It's because my mother knew a man that would bring a cow down at night time down to a coal store near us and in this coal store he would they'd get a

man to kill the cow, cut into portions of beef and on the black market mum and dad had to go into savings of course because you know weren't rich but there was there was a my mother had it had an operation for appendicitis and she wanted to invite my other grandmother and my aunt down for a meal and that's when the Germans came and just opened the door didn't knock and they just come in and they just check the plates and we wondered whether, my dad said, I wonder if there was a letter sent about the beef because if you're hungry and you can smell the beef cooking, maybe it was that there might have been a letter

sent to the post office anonymously, but they used to tear them up. Postmen were very good, usually, because they'd guess that it was another letter. Informer. Yeah, they'd tear it up. Anonymous, yeah. Anonymous letters. After D-Day and the liberation of France,

the German-occupied Channel Islands were totally isolated, cut off from the shrinking German Empire and cut off from supplies. What about that last winter of 1944-45? Do you remember getting hungry then? Very much so, yes. And we had no water, no heating, hardly any food, no bread for three weeks. Awful.

I mean, that was the worst time when France was cut off from supply. We went to collect the Red Cross parcels and they brought them home. And I can remember my mother saying, you must all be responsible for your own Red Cross parcels, because by then people were breaking in at night, either the slave workers who were starving to death, or the Germans were very hungry by then. And she said, you must take them upstairs to bed, so that you're responsible for your own parcel. So with the first lot, it was very exciting. I took my Red Cross parcel out to bed,

and my brother, who was nearly two years older than me, brought his up and put his into his bedroom and then went downstairs because he didn't go to bed at the same time as I did. And by the time he came upstairs upstairs I had gone into his parcel taken his chocolate and eaten it all so he nearly killed me he was so furious because it was and my mother came up and said well you know that was a wicked thing to do and you will be punished and I thought thought, yes, I expect so, perhaps so. And when the next parcel comes,

you will give all your chocolate to Tony. So I thought, she'll forget about that. But of course she didn't. And when the next parcel came, I had to hand it all over, which was right and proper, so I never pinched anything out of his parcel after that. Yeah, so there was this lovely condensed milk in the parcels, and a spoonful of that was lovely. And my mother said, right, liberation, when we're liberated, you can have a tin each.

So Liberation Day, you put three tins on the table. My younger brother was, by then, I had a sister who was born in 1943. Only the three of us sat at the table and after about two spoonfuls we fell sick as dogs. That's as far as we got. It was so rich and our stomachs weren't used to food like that that we couldn't manage it anymore. Liberation came right at the end of the war in fact the german garrison held out until the final surrender of germany itself liberation day followed v day with the arrival of a british naval vessel there was obviously great excitement molly and diana both dashed down to the port and with that we just dashed down because i had long legs as well and we just ran down and got to these wonderful 25 soldiers and with their bayonets, their hats, everything was

disarrayed. They were crying with us, we were laughing, crying, eventually singing but at the time it was so emotional and I And this went on for quite a few minutes because we didn't want to lose them. They were so clean looking and they smelled so lovely. I mean, Germans were really starving and they were dirty. And eventually they had to get to the courthouse to put the flag, the English flag on. We didn't want them to go. I had two biscuits all day, just followed them everywhere. Where my sister and mother, father were, I don't know.

We just loved everybody in the town. There was a case of everybody was coming into the town and he just had a It's hard to imagine how wonderful it was. There were planes coming overhead eventually, then the clock at the town church That was striking for the first time We went to the courthouse and again followed I had two biscuits all day and that was from a window in a hotel from a soldier I take it and I know orange given from a sailor what I

was going to do with it I don't. By the time we got into town, there were quite a lot of them giving us sweeps and everything like that, which was very exciting. Was it a sort of carnival atmosphere? Yes, definitely, yes. It was great, very, very exciting. Land a Viking longship on island shores, scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt, and avoid the Poisoner's Cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series Chasing Shadows,

where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. And everybody had suddenly produced Union Jacks, which they'd obviously had secreted away. And there were flags everywhere and music and it was all you know very exciting and very happy we were all very happy as children of course we were. Beda's family fought to get back

to Alderney as quickly as possible. Yes it was. And apparently, we hugged the coast of France, whatever that meant. So instead of coming like this to England, from England to all, we come sort of that way. And we come in from the lighthouse. Instead of making for the breakwater, we come in that way. And then somebody said, oh, there's the lighthouse. instead of making for the breakwater, we come in that way. And then somebody said, oh, there's the lighthouse. And people were going, the men, like, looking.

And because I said, I want to have a look as well. So my father had to put his arms underneath my armpits to steady me to walk to the front of the boat so I could see the lighthouse flashing. Well, as soon as we got on the shore, I looked up, because the old crusher was still there, I looked up and I just said, Home. And it was like two great big blocks,

heavy blocks on my shoulder, lifted like that. Why? Why? Why did that happen? It was just like two heavy blocks there, and they just went like that. But home was almost unrecognisable. What did the town, the island look like?

Terrible. Very depressing. Bleak. town the island looked like terrible very depressing bleak you're awful but we were glad to be home but it was in a terrible they i mean all that down uh down there by um where bray beach hotel is that was all direct They were all just shells and all the rest of it. A lot of the island was as well. The islands recovered. The human toll was certainly not as high as other occupied territories. 570 Channel Islands were sent to prison camps on the continent and at least nine Guernsey residents never came home. The occupation is just about remembered now by some of the oldest people

on the islands, people like the wonderful Roy, Bida, Molly and Diana. They have very mixed feelings about the experience they went through. So looking back, it was a time, I mean, was it was an exciting time? Were you almost glad you lived through it? Yes, yes, I think so. glad you lived through it or was it? Yes, yes I think so because it was quite a unique experience to be brought up in an occupied territory and I'm not going to say that it was enjoyable but it was exciting. That was some of the memories of some of the older residents of the islands of Guernsey. I'm very sorry to say that since we recorded that, the wonderful Bida Thompson has passed away peacefully. So this podcast is very much dedicated to her. She left a huge impression on me and the whole crew who interviewed her that day last year. I feel we have the history on our shoulders.

All this tradition of ours, our school history, our songs, this part of the history of our country, all were gone and finished and liquidated. One child, one teacher, one book and one pen can change the world. One book and one pen can change the world. He tells us what is possible, not just in the pages of history books, but in our own lives as well. I have faith in you. I hope you enjoyed the podcast, everyone. Just a massive favour to ask if you could go to iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts, give it a rating, five stars, obviously, and then leave a glowing review. That'd be great. My mum is getting overwhelmed by the amount of different email

accounts she's set up to leave good reviews for me. So you're gonna have to do some of the heavy lifting. Thank you. you