Dan Snow's History Hit - History's Documents

Episode Date: August 10, 2020

In this pod I was joined by two people who have played quite an important part in my life: my mum and dad (known to the rest of the world as Peter Snow and Ann MacMillan). Their latest book is a bold examination of world history, told through 50 of our most important documents. They have been sourced from collections of national archives, museums, libraries, and private collections across the globe. From this selection of 50, I asked for a selection of six to discuss in this episode, telling a story of our political, military, artistic, and scientific challenges and achievements. Subscribe to History Hit and you'll get access to hundreds of history documentaries, as well as every single episode of this podcast from the beginning (400 extra episodes). We're running live podcasts on Zoom, we've got weekly quizzes where you can win prizes, and exclusive subscriber only articles. It's the ultimate history package. Just go to historyhit.tv to subscribe. Use code 'pod1' at checkout for your first month free and the following month for just £/€/$1.

Hi everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History. Here in the UK we have a heatwave. We have a heatwave so people are hopefully hiding inside, taking some shade, listening to podcasts to get them through the gruelling heat, which in other countries would be considered the heat of a gentle spring morning. Anyway, so it's total meltdown here. I've got another podcast for you. It's my mum and dad. Yeah, my mum and dad. You know what? Your mum and dad asked to come on the pod. You can't say no. And why would I want to say no?

Because they've written a great book. Another great book. You heard them last year on the podcast talking about their last book. Well, they've used lockdown very wisely and they've written another book. This time it is Treasures of World History. 50 incredibly important documents from every continent apart from Antarctica. So from all the rest of the continents. And it is a story of our journey, the rest of the continents and it is a story of

our journey of the history of the world through these documents and they loved it so much they're already launched into another book they're already halfway through writing another book shielding lockdown no child care to worry about neighbors bringing around delicious shepherd's pies and fruit to sustain them equals extreme productivity who knew Who knew? This is Mum and Dad. You can go and listen to all the back episodes of this podcast exclusively on History Hit TV. It's like our new history channel, our new Netflix for history. You subscribe using the code POD1, P-O-D-1, as a voucher.

And that means you get a month for free, and then you get one month for just £1 a year or dollars. You basically get two months for the cost of a pound, a buck, a euro, which is, I mean, pretty sweet. I mean, that's getting us towards Christmas, dare I say, two months from now. We're going to be looking at the back end of October. You know, you're going to be Christmas, going to be on the horizon. Anyway, that's a thought. So you do that, pod one, and then you get access to this amazing history channel. We've got hundreds of history documentaries, hundreds of podcasts. You're going to love it. Go and check it out. In the meantime, here is my mum and dad, Peter Snow and Anne Macmillan, talking about treasures of world history. Enjoy.

well hi guys got you back on the podcast great dan hi dan okay so what's the idea behind this one this time mum well we thought we'd look at documents from around the world after your book with dads on documents of british history famous documents we decided to go a little bit wider and so we looked at documents from all over the place, lots of different countries and over a huge time period. At least one from every continent and they're great monuments of human endeavour aren't they? I mean the Wright brothers have their first flight, the telegram they sent back their dad saying we've done it. One of my favourites, the Great New Zealand Petition for the Women. Yeah, the suffrage petition basically helped women get the vote in New Zealand making it the first country in the world that gave women the vote. And of course we had to include Tutankhamen's wonderful chalice, that lovely cup that Carter found in the tomb, which says,

you know, you're going to go into a paradise in heaven, be happy there. We also cover a huge time period, starting back about 4,000 years ago, with the Code of Hammurabi, the first complete legal code that has ever been found, right up to the 21st century map of the universe. Pretty good, pretty good. Okay, now listen, I've asked you to choose three each. I don't know how you chose, I was involved in the choosing of these documents. It's very, very difficult, but now I'm asking you to choose your three favourite ones. Mum, why don't you start? What documents have you chosen from the whole of human history that you think are important well as a woman I've chosen Mary Wollstonecraft's book The Vindication of the Rights of Woman which was published in 1792 she was a really remarkable woman who changed the role of females in the 18th

century like other philosophers of the time, John Locke, Thomas Paine, she believed that reason was the key to understanding and using it to change the world around us. But Wollstonecraft went one step further. She argued that since women were rational beings, they should be treated the same as men. She urged women to take control of their lives through education and to move on from what she called being spaniels and toys of men surprisingly the book was quite well received at the time of publication although one critic did call her a hyena in petticoats we had her on the podcast before and i think it probably was well received because the first edition no one knew it was written by a woman when they told people it was written by a woman it reviews kind of tailed off at that point well

also they tailed off a bit later in her life when her past was revealed because she had rather a crazy life after she wrote the book she went off to Paris because she supported the French Revolution and she fell in love with an American and had his baby he refused refused to marry her. She then tried to commit suicide twice and was basically very, very unhappy. She came back to England, met a British philosopher named Edward Godwin, and became pregnant with him. So even though she didn't believe in marriage, she did marry him. They had a child called Mary, who, fascinatingly enough, became Mary Shelley. She married the poet Shelley and wrote the book Frankenstein. Anyway, poor old Mary Elder died shortly after giving birth to her daughter,

and her husband decided to write her biography, and he wanted to be absolutely truthful about her life, so he told about her illicit affair. He wrote about her suicide attempts, her illegitimate child, and the fact that she didn't believe in marriage, and people literally just stopped reading her book and it wasn't until 100 years later when feminists in the late 1900s started demanding equal rights that they rediscovered her work so she finally became the mother of feminism a terrific person wonderful story amazing it's amazing she also went on some

mad treasure hunting expedition as well. Extraordinary. Dad, what's your first document you want to talk about? I will go right back to one of the most extraordinary moments in world history when the Athenians decided that the way to run a country was for every single man, unfortunately, and no women, no

slaves, every single man to be able to vote for decision making. And they all gathered in the Agora, which is down at the bottom of the marketplace, or they gathered up on a hill called the Pnyx, and it's up the top. They all put their hands up or down, depending on what they want to do something.

And one of their wonderful, most my favourite habit, and the one that led to the document we've chosen, which is just a piece of pottery with a writing on it, a bit of writing, which says the name of those they want to chuck out of the country. And what they would do is they would say, right, this year we're going to have about six names in front of us, and we're going to see which one gets 6,000 votes. So the one that got 6,000 votes is the one that Chop had to go into exile, this chap. And one of our four bits of

little pottery sherds is one with Megacles on it. And poor old Megacles, he may have been taken to cleaners because he may not have been guilty at all, but his family were thought to have signalled to the Persians that Athens was ripe for taking. If they went round the outside Cape Sunium and they came up to Athens, they'd find it unoccupied by the Athenians. And so his family was thought guilty. He was thought guilty. And the poor chap had got frightfully rich and prosperous after the war had all gone and ended. People got very jealous of him. And they all voted for Megakles to be thrown out. Poor chap was thrown out. And for 10 years, he had to stay outside Athens. So I just think this is a wonderful exercise in direct democracy. It's never been repeated.

No country's ever managed to give every single person, except in a referendum. It's like having a daily referendum to decide decisions that matter to people. I think it's absolutely wonderful experience they must have had in Athens. It must have been total chaos, but never mind. And didn't the word ostracon mean ostracism? wonderful experience they must have had in Athens. It must have been total chaos, but never mind. It was real democracy. And didn't the word ostracon mean ostracism? Yes, of course. I mean, the ostracon means if you were voted against, you were thrown out, you were ostracised, and that's become a sort of byword now for people being exiled

or being sort of put in coventry. Put in coventry? Haven't you heard that expression? No, no. Put in coventry? No. I'm delighted you haven't. You're sent to coventry and nobody will talk to you. Yes, it means that you're... You're sent to coventry? Haven't you heard that expression? No, I've never heard it. Put in Coventry? No. I'm delighted you haven't. And nobody will talk to you.

Yes, it means that you're sent to Coventry. Or put in Coventry. Or you're ostracised. Okay, well, okay. Poor old Coventry. Mum, what's your next document? It is another personal choice. It's the BNA Act, the British North America Act of 1867,

which created my country, Canada. And mine. I got a Canadian passport, Mum, thanks to you. I've actually seen it, actually, Dan, in the parliamentary archives in the Palace of Westminster. It's tucked away between the Metropolitan Poor Act and the Dog Licensing Act. So not a very auspicious place,

but it's sitting there, a little white scroll with a red ribbon around it, and it's wonderful to think that that created the country of Canada. I'll tell you a little bit of the background. There were three British colonies in North America, Canada, which was made up of Ontario and Quebec, and Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, and political leaders from all these provinces appealed to the British government in 1867 to become independent and they wanted to call the new country the Kingdom of Canada. The Brits said no to that so it was named the Dominion of Canada and on February the 12th 1867 a bill was introduced

into the British House of Lords allowing Canada to run its own domestic affairs but Britain continued controlling its foreign affairs and defence. It was quickly passed, and the British North America Act became law in Canada on July 1st, 1867. Hence Canada Day to this day. That's right. That's our national day. And it's sort of fun to read reports of how various cities celebrated the occasion. 101 gun salute in Ottawa, the nation's capital. Toronto had fireworks. Trumpets were blown in Montreal, and there was a military parade in Halifax, Nova Scotia.

Over the years, more and more provinces joined Canada. There are 10 today, and three territories. And gradually, more powers were transferred to Canada from London. But it wasn't until 1982 that Britain finally relinquished its power over Canada. Really? Yeah, the Constitution was taken back by Pierre Elliott Trudeau in 1982. Wow. Land a Viking longship on island shores,

scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt and avoid the Poisoner's Cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive but to conquer whether you're preparing for assassin's creed shadows or fascinated by history and great stories listen to echoes of history a ubisoft podcast brought to you by history hits there are new episodes every week the queen still had a state, didn't she?

Yes, she is. Oddly, in a way, but there we are. I mean, they still have that little tie with Britain, which is nice. OK, Dino, what is your next document? Well, I'd like to spring ahead now to the extraordinary moment in Mexico when people who'd never been found by Europeans suddenly were discovered and were invaded by Hernán Cortés in 1520. And the extraordinary thing that happened

was that Cortés and his chaps conquered this country. They took over Mexico. They took over the Aztec kingdom, the old Aztec empire. They took it over. They killed the king, Montezuma, and they discovered that the Aztecs couldn't write. They could draw pictures, they could do everything, they could run their country quite effectively, had some terrible, terrible practices like human sacrifice, but they couldn't write. And so this

meant that they had no history, because they hadn't written it down. Some of them, they remembered what had happened, and they had stories through their families. And so a very bright governor of the new state of Mexico, a chap called Antonio de Mendoza, said, look, before the Aztecs die out, as it were, before the memory of what it was all like die out, let's write it down in Spanish, and let's get the Aztecs to draw pictures about where they remembered real life was, the life under Montezuma, what they remember of the traditions. Let them tell us in their words what it was. We'll write it down and we'll get them also to draw pictures about what happened. So we'll have the history of this extraordinary empire all written down, all memorized in pictures, illustrations and so on. And so they sat down, it took them about five or ten years,

and they finally produced this wonderful, wonderful, it's the most beautiful thing, it's now in the Bodleian Library in Oxford, and you can see these beautiful pictures, all beautifully coloured, the Codex Mendoza it's called, it's called after Governor Mendoza himself, and it's absolutely smashing. It really is lovely. Pictures of women drinking. Apparently, it was a great thing to be known as a great drinker. So there's a wonderful picture of a woman drinking this wonderful sort of cocktail,

whatever it was, and getting very drunk indeed. And this is welcome. This is a good thing to do. It's welcomed. And the Spanish record this and so on. And they record all sorts of ways in which Montezuma ran his kingdom. this and so on. And they record all sorts of ways in which Montezuma ran his kingdom. It's a marvellous moment in history where a document is produced by a people who couldn't do it themselves. They had to do it with their conquerors, the Spanish. And you get this

remarkable, beautiful piece of kit, which is the Codex Mendoza, which is now in the Pondy Library. We just had a podcast, actually, Dad, which you should have listened to, last month with a professor of history at Rutgers called Camilla Townsend. She's been looking at all these amazing oral histories that were written down, the generations following the conquest as well. I've no idea about that stuff's existed. It's so cool. So I no wonder you chose that one, Dad. Excellent. Mum, what's your next one? Well, I'm moving into the 20th century rather rapidly. And we had a big debate when we were drawing up a list, a short list of the 50 documents, as you will remember because you helped us with it, about what exactly is a document.

And we decided that a used envelope with a list of cities drawn up for the Beatles' 1964 tour of North America was indeed a document. It was written by Brian Epstein, their manager, and it was the first time the Beatles toured the U.S. They had 33 concerts in 32 days in cities all the way from Montreal to San Francisco. The group was a huge hit in Britain by this point, but the Americans were a bit sniffy about them. Critics made jokes about the fact that they were, you know, floppy haired and wore these silly suits and funny boots. They hadn't really been taken seriously musically in the way they had in Britain, but they appeared on the Ed Sullivan show early in 1964, and the audiences just went mad about them. So this is when Brian decided we got to do a tour

and wrote on the back in front of this envelope where they'd go. They arrived in San Francisco in August 1964 and they were immediately surrounded by screaming fans everywhere. In that first concert, 50 people reached the stage in spite of huge barriers that the police had put up and 50 more were injured in the crush. In New York City, there were riots wherever they went. In Atlantic City, the Beatles had to jump into a seafood truck to get away from, you know, fans who were running down the street after them. So the tour was huge, and it was a great success. Were you one of those fans, Mom?

Yeah, I was. And, you know, they came to Toronto, and I didn't go to their concert, Yeah, I was. And, you know, they came to Toronto and I didn't go to their concert, much to my huge regret in later life. But my brother and I remember hearing the cheers coming from Maple Leaf Gardens, which was about a mile south of our house. We could hear the cheers as the Beatles sang song after song. It was great. I met the Beatles. I interviewed them back in 1964. And they were absolute charming guys, and they were a wonderful interview. Terribly easy and pleasant. Yeah, they looked very nice. I think, didn't John Lennon,

wasn't he quite rude to you? You may remember that, but I don't. Because you didn't know who he was. Oh, no, I did. No, no, no, no, that was, no, no, I knew who John Lennon was. No, no, I think you're talking about Barbara Streisand. Barbara Streisand. Terrible story, which I could tell you about. Nothing will ever do beautiful documents.

But I had to interview Barbara Streisand at London Airport. She was coming back from some trip. And I had no idea who she was or what she'd done. And I'd been thrown in. I think I was covering something else. And they said, go to the airport, interview Barbara Streisand. And I said to her, I said, so what's your latest hit? And she looked at me and said, look, if you don't know what my latest hit is

and I don't think you even know who I am, do you? You might as well stop this interview. And so I sort of struggled to make some sense of it all and I went back and I was in terrible trouble. But can I just finish my story about the Beatles? Of course. The Beatles then went on to tour all over the world but they really ended up hating it and within two years they'd stopped touring altogether because John Lennon said nobody was listening to

their music anymore they were just screaming and jumping around and Paul McCartney did an interview and it was rather sad he said I just dread the time I spend backstage after a live gig waiting for the armored car to take me back to my hotel. He said, let's just stop all this. We've made enough money. Let's all stop and go to Brighton. Very nice. OK, Dad, what have you got for us? Well, I want to take you on to one of these extraordinary documents. There are so many I could choose from, but I would plump, I think, for one that illustrates the extraordinarily intensely personal nature of diplomacy. And here we have Winston Churchill sitting with Joe Stalin in the autumn of 1944, and Stalin's armies are pouring all over the Eastern Bloc. I mean, they're all pouring into

Poland and Hungary and Czechoslovakia. And Churchill's there struggling to try and secure a sort of democratic future for these countries, because everybody in the West is pressing him to watch out for the Russians. They're all communists, and they mustn't make these countries communists. So Winston sat down there with Stalin. They probably had a few vodkas together. I'm sorry, Churchill enjoyed vodka. He made me some whiskey. Anyway, Churchill thought, I don't know, I'm going to scribble down a piece of paper

the way I think Eastern Europe should be divided. And so he scribbled down. He started with Greece, and he put the West, others, our slot, 90%, Russians, 10%. Then he went for Romania. Romania, funnily enough, was the first country the Russians poured into in Eastern Europe. They went down and then up. Romania, funnily enough, was the first country the Russians poured into in Eastern Europe. They went down and then up.

And Romania, Churchill said, all right, 90% Soviet, 10% the rest of the world. And then he went on. He was really pretty cheeky of him because the Russian army was virtually there already. And he said, Hungary, 50-50. Yugoslavia, 50-50. Then he had the cheek to say Bulgaria, which is absolutely, totally clobbered by the Soviet Union's armies. He said 75% all right, Stalin, 25% West. He didn't include Poland, which is interesting, because of course, Poland was the big country. And Churchill had many Polish friends. He knew about the Polish democratic movement. He knew he ought to be guaranteeing

Poland for democracy, but he didn't mention it for some reason. He knew Stalin would just laugh. Anyway, he passed it across to Stalin. Stalin looked at it and then ticked it in the top right-hand corner and passed it back to Churchill. And Churchill thought, well, that's interesting.

He sort of accepted one or two bits of my rather cheeky suggestion. And he said to Stalin, do you think I ought to burn this rather cynical piece of paper? Because, I mean, really, we're dividing up Europe rather disgracefully. And Stalin said, no, no, keep it. And so he kept it. But he described it later on as a naughty message he'd passed to Stalin.

And, of course, it didn't do Churchill a great deal of good, but he did get Greece. He was very proud of the fact that Stalin promised him that he wouldn't make Greece 100% communist. And Stalin, interestingly, never supported the communist revolution in Greece that followed the Second World War. And so Churchill thought he did a bit of paper. It wasn't a great use, had done something.

But for me, it's not so much the effect it had on Europe, but this amazing way in which two people of such importance can discuss the future of the world and leaders. It's through every century that leaders have enormous power. It's funny that he's arguably stuck to the Greek thing but the rest of the countries, Britain, are the West going to look into it? He laughed at Bulgaria and Hungary, the idea that you would divide Hungary up half and half.

Of course, in Hungary, the tragedy of Hungary was it was a communist regime that got increasingly unpopular and eventually, of course, the revolution of 1956. Indeed, we think they do. In 1956, they sort of thought, my God, maybe we've gone too far, but they could have had no choice but to crush it, which they did. And then, of course, eventually, in 1989, Hungary became independent and democratic.

Well, excellent, guys. Thank you very much. There are 50 documents in this book. So I am very excited about your new project. Can you tell the world yet what your next book is, your next bestseller? Well, we are embarking on a... It's been done before,

but we're going to do it in a quite new, readable and exciting and clear way, is the story of England's and then Britain's kings and queens, the monarchy in this country from start to finish. And it's a very exciting project. We've got about 50 monarchs, starting with Alfred the Great, and we're getting on with it. We're getting on rather well. Are you including Lady Jane Grey?

Of course. She's a monarch on her own right. Interesting. What about the Empress Matilda? Of course she's a monogam of her own right. Interesting. What about the Empress Matilda? Yes. She gets a mention. I think Anne's will certainly get a mention. I haven't got to her yet. And Prince Louis, are you going to do Louis in 1216? I wondered if you would ask about Prince

Fleming Louis. You mean King Louis I. Well, who knows? He was. He was proclaimed. He was acclaimed wasn't he? By a lot of the barons in England as king. And he lasted a month or two, didn't he? Yeah, but never crowned. And Mark Morris will get angry at me because you're meant to crown medieval kings. Well, thank you very much, guys.

So good luck with this other documents book. What's it called, Mum? Read it out. It's called Treasures of World History, the Story of Civilization, told through its 50 most important documents. That's pretty bold. It's a pretty bold claim. Good luck with it, guys. Thank you, Dan. Thank you, Dan.

Hi, everyone. It One child, one teacher. Hi everyone, it's me, Dan Snow. Just a quick request. It's so annoying, and I hate it when other podcasts do this, but now I'm doing it, and I hate myself. Please, please go onto iTunes, wherever you get your podcasts, and give us a five-star rating and a review. It really helps, and basically boosts up the chart,

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