Dan Snow's History Hit - Inside the JFK White House

Episode Date: January 6, 2023

November 22nd marks 59 years since the assassination of US President John F. Kennedy. One of the most famous assassinations in history, JFK's death sent shockwaves not only through the United States but across the world. However, before that fateful day in history, JFK was a journalist, a Senator, and finally President - but what do we know about his early political career? And what actually went on behind the closed doors of the Oval office?James Rogers from the Warfare Podcast is joined by Deirdre Henderson, a former colleague and friend of JFK. Deirdre had worked with JFK when he was a senator, and played a significant role in helping to form a group of key advisors to secure his Presidential election. Not only that, but Deirdre went on to work in matters of defence and security for the state - and in the early years of their friendship, was gifted JFK's personal diary. Together, Deirdre and James talk about how Deirdre came to work for the then Senator, her experience at the 1961 Inauguration, and her final moments with JFK. Deirdre offers an unprecedented look inside JFK's White House, allowing for a new side of John F. Kennedy to be seen.If you'd like to learn more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad-free podcasts and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe to History Hit today!Download the History Hit app from the Google Play store.Download the History Hit app from the Apple Store.

This is History's Heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas, and the courage to stand alone. Including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the First World War. You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, Sonny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you. Join me, Alex von Tunzelman, for History's Heroes. Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, welcome to Dan Snow's History. I've got an episode of Warfare for you today.

It's our special military history podcast. Go and subscribe wherever you get your pods. Presented by Dr James Rogers. It covers, well, warfare from the early modern period, but particularly First and Second World War. So recently reading a lot on Ukraine as well. It's fascinating stuff. He gets great guests. Enjoy this episode. It's an eye-opener. On November 22nd, 1963, President John F. Kennedy was assassinated as he rode in a motorcade through downtown Dallas,

Texas. Tomorrow marks 59 years since that fateful day, a day that changed the history of the United States and the lives of those around him forever. One of those people was a young researcher named Deidre Henderson. Now, Deidre had been working for JFK since he'd been a senator. She'd helped to develop his famous brain trust of key advisors that in turn had helped him to get elected. In fact, Deirdre would go on to work for the Kennedy administration on defence, security and matters of state. I'm your host James Rogers, this is the Warfare podcast and over many years now I've become good friends with Deirdre and I've never failed to be astonished by her insights into that period. And so as we mark the anniversary of JFK's death, I asked Deirdre if

she wanted to come onto the podcast, and she said yes. So I travelled to her house, not far from Kennedy's old stomping ground in Boston, Massachusetts, where Deirdre kindly gave us personal insights into key moments from the Kennedy years, from Kennedy's famous inauguration, which she attended, through to the lows of the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Vietnam War, and the day that Kennedy was killed. These are truly rare and unique insights. inauguration which she attended, through to the lows of the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Vietnam War, and the day that Kennedy was killed. These are truly rare and unique insights. And so here is Deirdre Henderson on life inside the JFK White House. Deirdre, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us today. It is wonderful to be in your New England home.

I've got a book in my hand with the president himself, JFK, on the front. This was your book. We have a glass of wine in hand. You are the best host possible. Cheers. Oh, of course, I've got coffee in my hand. Kate, yeah, that is coffee. Yeah, good save. Good save. And we're here today to talk about President Kennedy, someone who you worked closely with over a number of years. So let's start at the start. How did you start working for then

Senator Kennedy? I first met him on June 15th, 1954. And I was a sophomore in college on my way to the University of Edinburgh for my junior year abroad. My sister, Cecily Pannoya, who was married to Paul Pannoya, was a good friend of the senator's. First thing he said to us in his office was, where's Paul? And Cecily said, oh, he's arguing before the Supreme Court. Just so happens Cecily was pushing him up. He did argue later before the Supreme Court, but his brother told me that she had pushed

the button a little ahead of time. So she was showing off what her husband was doing. That's right. And they met during the war, Paul and JFK. They served together, right? Not really served. They found each other on a vessel going into the Pacific. Ah, okay. Paul was much higher rank than JFK, and they got to know each other. And JFK immediately recognized that his grandfather was JP Morgan. That was an attraction, but not the

whole way. They had great admiration for each other. And they both understood history. And Paul told me that's all they discussed. They didn't discuss blondes or anything. And even after the war. So they had that mutual passion, that mutual connection. Oh, yeah, they did indeed. And at one point during their trip into the Pacific, JFK said, I'm going up to the tent or the radio shack, and I'm going to see what's going on in the world. And he came back in about 10 minutes. and he said, Paul, I'm sorry to tell you, but your grandfather died today. So this is J.P. Morgan of the banking fame. Exactly. So they became very good friends. And then after the war, Paul had left law school. I think he left law school to go into the war. And then when they came back,

he finished and JFK was writing his thesis. And that's history, but quite interesting. Yeah, very interesting. And so when you met him in 1954, this was kind of through Paul, through your sister, but you got to meet the then senator. How did he rub off on you? What did you think of the senator when you first met him? Very polite, very gracious, and very down to earth. And he said, he chose the menu. He didn't say, what do you want? He said, we're going to have fish chowder and a glass of milk. And was there anything else? There might've been a little bun thrown in there. There you go, luxury.

And then he, obviously, you know, poor guy, he's leaving his office to come and talk to two ladies. And he dragged me up and he introduced me to Senator Green, who was the oldest senator in the body. And I shook hands with Senator Green, great honor. And then we went back and talked for a while. I forgot what we were talking about. I'm sure Cecily. And Cecily was very, very attractive and intelligent, much more than me. So I'm just a skinny little kid going to Edinburgh. And when I got to Edinburgh, I got a little overweight because all I do is drink, eat pastries. But anyway, he gave me a ticket to the hearings that were then going on. I have to check, but I think

they're probably with the Army McCarthy hearings. So I listened to them and I forgot if Cecily came along. So there were a few gaps in the brain but anyway that was the first meeting and did you leave that meeting thinking you know one day i want to work i was thinking of anything but no i mean subconsciously yes yeah but i'm not one to go bellowing around and say look what i just did so it's just like, I want that Times article, not because to blow up my prestige, which I don't have much of, but to say to history, this is what happened. Okay, so I feel things in a conservative way. So when did you come back around to start working for the senator? Oh, then when I graduated from college,

I got an introduction. And then I became a member, administrative assistant to the Harvard Defense Studies Program, which was funded by the Ford Foundation and which was for fellows, senior fellows, to come and study war and the implications thereof. And one of the people, Professor Archibald Leach, you ought to look him up. He's, I think, Brigadier General. He wrote me the nicest letter of introduction. And he also told me to go and work for John F. Kennedy because they were good friends. Barton Leach. Barton Leach. Yeah.

I think he was Brigadier General. Anyway, very nice man. And he gave me some good advice. I had hired somebody that wasn't the right kind of person. So he told me to get rid of him. We did, because I was not terribly sophisticated about things like that. Yeah. And so you're learning lessons, you're cutting your teeth with the trade before going on to work for the senator himself. Yes. And so I was administrative assistant, but I extended that to going to all the seminars with the senior fellows and getting to know and reading all the assignments, which they didn't always.

And getting to know the bigwigs that came to address the lectures. And I didn't ever have much connection with the then head of it, whose name was Henry Kissinger. But people like General James Gavin, I did get to know very well. But people like General James Gavin, I did get to know very well. They would go on to advise President Kennedy on defense issues because General James Gavin was jumping gym from the Second World War. Absolutely. A hero. And of course, there were other people that came there, admirals, generals, but also just people that knew a lot. And I would somehow get to know them because as somebody once said to me, you're very pushy. And I said, oh, no, I'm not pushy. I just want to get things done.

So you knew the right people that could then perhaps help the senator in his next step, which was to run for being president. Right. And he'd already decided to run. OK. I think way back. He decided to run after his brother, Joseph, got killed in World War II. And then he knew that he couldn't go on to be a, I think he wanted to be a journalist. And he had worked for the Hearst newspapers. And so that was cut off.

And his father, he knew, wanted him to run for the presidency. So that was that. That was that. And then once you started working for JFK in a researcher role, what was it that you started to do? Was it piecing together a team of advisors that would be able to help him on defense issues and maybe a range of other issues that could then help him secure that victory over Nixon? over Nixon. That's right. But he already had a team. It was about 25 advisors and they had assignments, some of them. The best thing he told me, which made my job much more feasible, was he said, add to this list advisors who you think would help. And then I'd call up Professor Galbraith or Professor Rostow or somebody that knew somebody that would fill the field. That's quite a responsibility.

Very much. And it also made the job easier because it was the things were moving very fast. And it was Hugh Sidey who wrote the introduction to Prelude to Leadership. The book in my hand. Yes, absolutely. In that, Hugh Sidey remarked in his introduction that JFK was a serious man on a serious mission. And that he was. Because you knew when you had an assignment that he wanted it done right away. And you've told me before that JFK was a man in a hurry as well. Certainly.

He wasn't a well man, was he? So he needed to achieve things quickly and at a young age. Well, I didn't remember seeing the crutches under his desk, but you couldn't dwell on that kind of thing. You had to just go on doing your work because you knew that's what he wanted. And you knew that he wanted to be president. Now, he didn't give a damn what you were, Republican or Democrat. He never asked me. I was obviously a Republican and he never asked me. And then he wanted to get things done. He was very bipartisan. He wanted people working for them who knew their stuff. And of course, you did do your job. You did do it right, because JFK goes on to be president-elect.

Tell us what it was like at that period of time when you were, you're just around the election. It must have been so chaotic, so hectic. Well, it was. But then again, if you were doing a job and you're taking care of things, the only thing is I just wanted to learn more about politics. And that was when I gave that party for him on Beacon Hill, which he asked me to give for him, all his advisors. And I invited everybody, all the academic advisors,

and I invited the then governor, Chubb Peabody, and various other politicians. And everybody accepted. And because I was quite naive, I thought, what the devil? They're all accepting. And then I was told to get the wine at the Kennedy Wine Company. And I got all the best wines that I could find. My father told me what to order.

And I had one bartender, not two or three, one. I remember saying, and get plenty of limes and lemons. I thought I knew what I was doing. I had never given a cocktail party before, and I didn't know what the devil I was doing. But anyway, everyone came. It was very festive. And I stayed next to JFK the whole time. And when I asked him what he wanted to drink, he said ginger ale.

Yeah, he didn't drink very much, did he, or at all? He couldn't because of his health situation. So it was milk or ginger ale? Well, those are the two I saw. Anyway, so that was that. And then when it was time to go, I walked down the street with him, Mount Vernon Street, and I said, Senator, may I ask you a favor? Ask him a favor. Can I go to the convention? And within seconds, he said, yes, if you spend half your time working for my top people at the convention site and the other

half at the Rand Corporation, you're on. Yeah. okay, because the Rand Corporation, which was one of the world's first think tanks located down in Santa Monica in California, that was where some of the most cutting-edged thought was taking place. Thought on nuclear strategy specifically that was against what Nixon was saying, or Nixon-Eisenhower. So these are people that JFK wanted on side and to help him break through, well, some of the noise that was going on around nuclear. The old line people. Yeah.

And of course, Eisenhower and Kennedy had great respect for each other afterwards. And Eisenhower helped President Kennedy greatly. Advising. On presidential things. Of course, yeah. So I think it was a question of just absorbing all the information, which Kennedy did. He didn't look at the small items. He looked at the larger picture. Now, Deidre, one of the things that I wanted to ask you, you've got your pile of documents

in front of you, so much history bound up there. I'd like to go through some of the key moments that you think from the Kennedy administration during the time that you were working closely there. And I suppose one of the most important points of this, the point that we should start at, is the inauguration itself. What was it like there on that day? Because you attended the inauguration, didn't you? Downright. And I had with me my father, who was Australian, my brother, who was a World War II veteran, and my sister-in-law, Elizabeth, who was delightful. And it was a cold, cold, beautiful, snow-driven day.

Eight inches of snow, blue skies, and we were all down there. And the people I remember on the podium were the president, Mrs. Kennedy, the vice president, Mrs. Kennedy, the vice president, Mrs. Johnson, Archbishop, or he might have been Cardinal, but then I have to check that out. I think he was Archbishop Cushing, who was a very close person to President Kennedy, and of course, a lot of other people. Now, JFK had a very strong delivery. And I remember, I just want to read you a couple of the snippets. Yeah, take us through the key moments of the speech from your point of view.

He said, the world is very different now, for man holds in his mortal hands the power to abolish all forms of human poverty and all forms of human life. And yet, human poverty, and all forms of human life. And yet, the same revolutionary beliefs our forebears fought are still at issue around the globe. The belief that rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God. Very stirring words. And quite foreboding in terms of the challenges that would be faced during his administration, especially in terms of the existential threats faced. Exactly. And then I go down and think of what he said in a couple of other paragraphs. He said, let us never negotiate out of fear, but let us never fear to negotiate. That's not bad to remember. And so my fellow Americans,

this is the famous line, which everybody remembers from the inauguration. And so my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. Very, very important. And having the heater on the stage blow out smoke, and it seemed to go in Archbishop Cushing's face. But it didn't matter because it was so cold. You wanted to be up there to take part in that. But anyway, that was a very moving day, and I think the most important part of it was the beginning for me. And let me not repeat this if I already told you.

The morning was about nine o'clock. And I told my sister-in-law that the president was going to be coming down when he wasn't president. He's coming down 34th Street on his way to Mass in an open car with Mrs. Kennedy sitting down. I couldn't see any Secret Service, but I wasn't looking for them. And I just yelled out, congratulations, Mr. President. And he yelled back, thank you, Deidre. And that was when my sister-in-law said, but he knows you. And I said, he better. I've been working 14 hour days for him. Yeah, you've been helping get elected. He made reference to that because when I saw him in the Oval Office later on, he said, I just want to ask you on inauguration day, I saw you outside

a brick house. Did you buy that? And I said, no, that was just a rental for the inauguration. He said, how are you doing on finding a place? And I said, it's very difficult. And he said, well, call up Mrs. Kennedy's assistant and she will get you a place right away. And she did. Wow. So he looked out for you. He was very kind. Very kind man. Right. I think he was kind to everybody. So that's the story of Inauguration Day. And like I mentioned, there's some lines in there about negotiation that perhaps

tell us a broader story about JFK's mindset. And this takes us into another one of those key moments from the administration. That is the Cuban Missile Crisis. What do you remember about that period? I remember a lot. Mainly, I was in the State Department at that point. I remember going over the White House and walking over there, but everything was very, very quiet. And you really remember that it was top secret, and no one was to say anything. My boss, Roger Hilsman, director of the Bureau of Intelligence Research, he knew the president very, very well. And he was a great guerrilla war man.

And so Cuba was looming, but of course, none of us knew what was going on. This is History's Heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas, and the courage to stand alone. Including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the First World War. You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, Sonny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you. Join me, Alex von Tunzelman, for History's Heroes.

Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcasts. It must have been quite strange looking back into the history of this, because at the time, you know it's top secret. You know there's something going on. You don't know quite what's going on, but it's the history now that helps you piece together those events that you lived at the time. Well, I knew it was the Cuban Missile Crisis because I was in the Bureau of Intelligence and Research, but I also knew keep your mouth shut. So later on when Sheldon Stern offered to write his version of, he called it the Seeds of Leadership, and he was an historian at the Kennedy Library in Boston from 77 to 2000.

And he's the first non-member of President Kennedy's key advisors on the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis, known as the EXCOMM, to listen to all the tapes. Mr. Stern has written many books on the crisis, and most notable being averting the final failure. Now, to give an introduction to that message that Stern sends, I want to read, if I may, what he wrote to me upon request about the crisis. He said, if any of the key members of the White House Executive Committee, EXCOMM, during the Cuban Missile Crisis, McNamara, Bundy, Thompson, Rusk, or Robert F. Kennedy had made the decision on Black Friday, October 7, 1962, we would very likely have been in a thermonuclear war. The decision to compromise by trading the Soviet missiles in Cuba for the US missiles in Turkey was President Kennedy's alone. Powerful statement for the day, perhaps.

It is a powerful statement for the day. And Kennedy had been tried and tested by Khrushchev for a long time by this point. He had been pressing the buttons of the young president. He had set off the first test, above ground test, of the largest nuclear weapon ever, the Tsar bomber, over in the Russian Arctic. He was showing Kennedy that he was someone not to mess with. But does it ring true to you, what Sheldon Stern is saying there, that Kennedy is a man who could negotiate like that. He's someone who perhaps uniquely could, in a calm manner, see reason and bring an end to the Cuban Missile Crisis, the closest we've been to date to thermonuclear war.

Right. But only because he knew history. And he'd lived as a young man. He had studied war. He had bad health, as you know. He had been reading books all his life about foreign leaders. Mostly Churchill was his idol. And he knew what war was about. He knew what peace was about. He knew World War II. And therefore, he had, I want to say, guts to stand up to leaders and say, this is what history told me about this, and I'm going to

do it. And you, Paul Nitz, are not going to tell me what to do. But it was peace through strength. But he was interested in the peace part of it, as well as the strength part of it. So therefore, you've got somebody that's unique and a leader, a leader of men. All right, now let's just take some of these quotes and see what Kennedy did during that negotiation. Absolutely, yeah. He lectured the Joint Chiefs of Staff that military force in Cuba could easily escalate to nuclear war and was a hell of an alternative, which in the U.S. alone would mean 80 to 100,000 million casualties. That's quite a statement.

In other words, he wasn't going to be pushed around. He also said during that time, on Black Saturday, October 27, he actually faced down all the major advisors, including the self-appointed hero of 13 days, Robert Kennedy, his brother, and made the private concession necessary to avert a war. Because he had lots of people around him pressuring him to take very firm military action. I mean, it's famous now, it's well known, but General Curtis LeMay was pushing for a military strike on Cuba. Oh, absolutely. LeMay was the heaviest push there was. And he yelled loudly. If the US attacked Cuba, the president told the Joint Chiefs of Staff it would give the Soviets a clear

line to take Berlin. Very concerned about Berlin, way on the other side. And the NATO allies would condemn the US for losing Berlin because we didn't have the guts to endure a situation in Cuba. There you go. So these are the broader geopolitical considerations that Kennedy's marking up here. And again, it shows that understanding of the political dynamics and of history as well. Right. Paul Nitzer was somebody who took on negotiating during the Cuban Missile Crisis. He was Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs. Good looking, tough, very intelligent. And he argued with the president on every single point.

The president had asked him to tell the Joint Chiefs to remind the men on the ground in Turkey not to be pushed into any negotiation about the missiles until they talked to him. He kept saying that the Joint Chiefs had already issued the order, and he didn't think they should have to issue it again. Well, President Kennedy said, I want the order reissued. President Kennedy said, I want the order reissued. And Nizza never gave up until finally Kennedy banged on the table and said, this is it. You reissue that order or? Nizza finally agreed, but he didn't give up easily. So he had a real firm control of the situation.

Oh, yeah. In other words, he wasn't pussyfooting around. And he'd do what he could to avoid war again, having known war himself and quite a terrible campaign in the Pacific. How does that lead us into Vietnam then? Because, of course, that was one of America's longest wars. It's one that the president himself starts to slowly roll America more and more into committing forces. Although perhaps you couldn't blame the longevity of the war on the president. What was his view on Vietnam? I would blame it. You would blame it on Kennedy?

No, I would blame it on his followers. I think when I learned that there were 25 advisors sent into Vietnam, that was very top secret. Didn't tell a soul. I think I told you that there was a reporter that I used to go out with occasionally to dinner and it was a good place to go to dinner. It was an interesting conversation and all that. And then afterwards, he said, I don't know how you could have not told me about the 25 advisors going in. And I said, it wasn't hard at all. I had a top secret clearance. So I think he must've thought he was terribly good looking and interesting. But not that good looking and interesting. Not to give up a top secret clearance.

But the steak was good. But the steak was good. Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. So anyway, that's about it. And so Kennedy, you know, beat them all down. I mean, discussed it.

He didn't cut off discussion. He just said, this is what it's going to be. Yeah. And came to a reasoned judgment. Right. So where does that go wrong with Vietnam then? Oh, well, Vietnam, I think, well, I just wasn't interested at all. And I didn't see any signs of him making it into a great big war.

And when people asked me to give money to continue the war, I said, I'm not giving any money to anything like that. The only time I ever marched was in Boston with President Bush's sister, who was delightful, and some friends of mine. Never marched before, but we went from Cambridge to Boston, marching against the Vietnam War. Now, after that was all blurry, and I blame LBJ and others for prolonging the war, the Vietnam War. I think that JFK, given his strong, he would have found a way to settle it. So JFK's assassination then is another turning point here. A moment in history that if things had gone a different way, then Vietnam may not have happened the way it did, in your opinion. I think that's right.

So take us through to that day of the assassination itself. You must remember exactly where you were and what was happening. A day like that doesn't leave your memory. No, it doesn't. But it was an everyday day at the State Department. And this young Foreign Service officer was very nice. And it was just a routine lunch and he invited me to and there was a lovely little restaurant near the state department i'm sure it's long

underground decimated and you could have a little lunch and you might have a little glass of wine or you might not so anyway we were walking out and there was a radio broadcast saying the president has been shot. And I said, I can't remember his name. I said, let's run back to the State Department and go into my boss and he will know. I think he's still alive. I don't think he's been shot dead. So I ran into the State Department, ran up to the front door and his secretary said, go right in. He's waiting for you, Deidre. Ran up to the front door and his secretary said, go right in. He's waiting for you, Deidre. And I could see these tears just streaming down his face.

And then I knew it was over. This was Roger Hilsman? Correct. So he knew the president was dead? Absolutely. It was one o'clock, I think, that Cronkite announced it. What happened from that point onwards? It must have been chaos. Well, not so much chaos as you felt as a person that the world had been stripped out from you.

In other words, you had lost it all and there was no leader. It was just down. And so on the day of the inauguration, I told you about where he was so buoyed up. And now all of us who knew him were on the White House lawn. And we couldn't all go to St. Matthew's Cathedral because it was just incredible. But I remember walking into the White House on that day, and all the rugs were being pulled up from his office. And one of his staff people, who happened to be a very nice gentleman, he said, hello, Deidre, nice to see you. And he said, essentially, let me know if I can do anything for you.

And I said, that's very kind of you. He was sitting in the president's desk, but he was a nice gentleman. But it was just wrenching to see that already being pulled up. This is the way it works, right? The moment it happens, you have to bring in the next president and keep the country moving. President Johnson had graciously told Mrs. Kennedy she could stay in the White House for the duration of whenever she wanted. And that was good of him. But on the other hand, there's a famous photo of him with a almost wry smile on his face, leading to lots of conspiracy theories that we won't go into. But it was definitely a destiny he was happy to accept. Absolutely. Without a doubt.

And our friend Fred Clough, who's a photographer, has some very interesting shots of President Johnson during that time period. He wouldn't have been your pick as vice president. Hell no. Johnson during that time period. He wouldn't have been your pick as vice president. Hell no. Now, did I tell you about that? No, no. Well, the convention. And I had been told. So that convention was the moment when he was made nominee for the Democratic Party to run for the presidency. Against Nixon. Yes. Okay. And that's where they decide also who the vice president and running mate is going to be. Correct. And that's where they decided it would be LBJ. Right. I see. And I was sitting with, I was told, I don't think the president told me directly, but the word was sent down that

Deidre, you sit with the owner of the Washington Post who was named Mrs. You know the name. I do. I know the name. Carol? Caroline? Graham. Kay Graham. I got it when you got it.

You got it before me. Kay Graham. Mrs. Catherine Graham. Okay, the word had come down. That was probably because they knew Deidre would get into trouble, which I proceeded to do. But anyway, I sat with her. She was very gracious,

very kind, but she didn't seem to be enamored of President Kennedy, President to be. And so after a day and a half, I said, Mrs. Graham, do you think it would be all right if I go down to the floor of the convention? Because I want to say hello to a few people. Oh, yes, Deidre, that'd be fine. In other words, she's probably happy to get rid of me. But anyway, I went down and at the door to the convention, who should I find is Chubb Peabody, governor of the state of Massachusetts. A good friend of JFK's, a good friend of my brother-in-law. Everybody knew him. He was delightful. So I said, oh, Mr. Governor, how are you? And he said, how are you? And I said, I'm fine, but I got a little problem.

I don't have a ticket pass to the floor because I was just sent there as a friend. So anyway, he took the credentials off his neck and handed them to me. And I said, oh, I'll give them back. Oh, he said, don't bother. Oh, wow. That was pretty nice. He was a nice guy. Anyway, so I went down to the floor, said hello to some of the Massachusetts delegation.

I didn't know too many of them. And then what caught my eye was a rally for Scoop Jackson over in the corner. Signs, everything, enthusiasm. And I had read about it, heard about him. And I thought, hum, I'm going to join that little rally. So I was going around with him. You know, we were all young. And this was the rally for Scoop Jackson to be vice president.

He goes on to be chair of the Democratic National Committee. But at this point, he was in the vying to be vice. That's right. So I said after a while of this,. That's right. So I said, after a while of this, so maybe a day of it, I said, I'm going to find out what's really going on. And so I went over and I found Robert Kennedy, who I knew and he knew me. And I said, I don't know what I called him, Mr. Kennedy or what the heck. But anyway, I said, can you tell me what I said? I think Scoop Jackson would be a wonderful vice president.

And he looked up with his tired eyes and he said, Deidre, he couldn't say Deidre either. It's all gone. Last night. It's all over. Then I knew that JFK had had to choose what his father said he wouldn't win if he didn't. LBJ. So then I went back to the scoop and I told him. I mean, I had to report back to my friends, right?

Yeah, of course. So that was rather interesting. And that takes us and it skips us back that moment after the assassination when LBJ comes to power as president, but then you have the funeral. Did you bring yourself, were you able to attend the funeral? No, but what I did was given by Robert Kennedy. I would send a telegram to come to the White House, I think it was 11 o'clock on a certain day to view his casket. And that was moving, amazing. And I'll never forget that. I almost, you know, because they couldn't invite all the staff people to St. Matthew's Cathedral. It was absolutely tight. But we were all on the White House lawn and we watched the procession.

new book coming out as well, Insights for Our Time, which is a republication of the JFK diary, which he personally gifted to you. That's right. And hopefully we'll see that out soon. Well, it better be because it is Insights for Our Time. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening. But before you go, a reminder that you can now follow along online on Twitter at HistoryHitWW2, on Instagram at JamesRogersHistory, and on TikTok also at JamesRogersHistory. You can also subscribe to our free Warfare Wednesdays newsletter by the link in the show notes. This is History's Heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas, and the courage to stand alone. Including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the First World War.

You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, Sonny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you. Join me, Alex von Tunzelman, for History's Heroes. Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcasts.