Dan Snow's History Hit - Insurrection in America

Episode Date: January 8, 2021

As an armed mob broke into the US Capitol, Dan talked long into the night to his friend and star blogger known only as the Angry Staff Officer. He is a serving officer in the US military and is unable to use his own name for broadcasting. During the course of a long conversation they talked about the American constitutional experiment, the history of insurrection in America, the battle of Gettysburg, the meaning of the word militia and, yes, Star Wars.

Douglas Adams, the genius behind The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, was a master satirist who cloaked a sharp political edge beneath his absurdist wit. Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth explores the ideas of the man who foresaw the dangers of the digital age and our failing politics with astounding clarity. Hear the recordings that inspired a generation of futurists, entrepreneurs and politicians. Get Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth now at pushkin.fm slash audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold. Hi everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. The world watched in fascinated horror as the US Capitol was stormed

by protesters this week. I really want to address this on the podcast. And I couldn't be happier to have an American on the podcast today, for the first time on this pod, whose name has to remain a secret. He is a serving military officer. He has a huge following on social media under the name Angry Staff Officer. He is, as everybody knows, who follows him online. He's a brilliant historian. He's a fascinating source of information about the US military, US history, and Star Wars. He's obsessed with Star Wars. He and I have been communicating

over the years, we've become firm friends, and this was the first time that we've been able to meet, albeit via the internet, thousands of miles apart. I asked him about the history of insurrection in the US, and he wanted to share with me one very particular moment of insurrectionary history that occurred in Maine at the end of the 19th century, involving one of the most remarkable soldiers, scholars and statesmen in US history. This is a rambling chat recorded late, late at night as the events in Washington, D.C. unfolded. If you wish to watch history documentaries alongside listening to podcasts, please do so at historyhit.tv. It's our new digital history channel. It's like Netflix for history. Hundreds of hours of documentaries on there, the world's best historians,

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That takes us through to post-vaccine, everyone. We can get back outside. We can celebrate. We can hug. In the meantime, everyone, please enjoy this interview with the anonymous but very brilliant angry staff officer. officer. Hey, buddy, it's great to have you finally on the show. It is absolutely terrific to be here. We've been messaging for so many years. We've been in touch. We've been friends for years, but we haven't talked before. I'm kind of nervous now. We're actually finally talking.

I like to call this the great anglo-american bromance uh i think is is the most accurate way to portray this uh and and likewise i'm i feel like i'm speaking with a legend and i'm not sure should i be standing at attention i don't know so i'll just i'll just have another drink of a gin and tonic well i don't know more appropriate i think you should be uh citing artillery batteries with lethal effectiveness somewhere north of Albany. So, dude, we were in close contact as we watched the assault on the capital. I can only imagine what was going through your head as an American, as a citizen, as a serving soldier, and as someone steeped in American history. as a serving soldier and as someone steeped in American history,

what was going through your head? And also, what bits of history have you been reaching for in the last days and hours? Well, I think, like most people, I was obviously shocked. You know, you don't, you see the Capitol building, you visit it, standing outside, you know, I assume you've stood outside in that building. It's such an imposing edifice. It is a very literal translation of U.S. power, of U.S. dignity, and just sort of this awe-inspiring building.

I mean, it is very much in the way of the old cathedrals. You go in and go, oh, wow. And it inspires you to, at least for me, whenever I visit, it's just this space of, you know, I should be a better American, I should be, I should be a more virtuous citizen in the lines of, you know, as some of the founders thought about virtue. And so, of course, seeing that space violated, overturned, broken into, my first reactions were very visceral, lots of anger, sadness, grief, shock. And then as I sort of have been processing through it all,

and I go, all right, we are a hopeful nation. We are a nation of those who overcome. And so as I sort of think about that, as you say, we look back in time for those anchor moments, for those anchor points in history. So that way we kind of feel like uh we have something to hold on to something to guide by and there there's goodness there's no shortage of insurrections in american history um we barely we'd barely uh gotten away from the uh um the lovely the lovely british uh your folks uh before we'd uh then decided to turn on ourselves with a couple of different rebellions, the Whiskey Rebellion and several others, usually small farmers protesting against what

they saw was an overreach of government power. Those drove us from the Articles of Confederation, a flawed, weak document, really, that was just too much compromise and no teeth, to the Constitution developed in 1787, which is a remarkable document. we've had these moments that have driven us and shaped us. Of course, our largest insurrection was the Civil War, which resulted in the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments that began to slowly move away from the horrors of slavery and what we'd done as a nation to keep people enslaved. But there's so much caught up in that. There's so much emotion in that. But there's so much caught up in that.

There's so much emotion in that. And honestly, my first thoughts were to someone who I sort of, I don't know, I've gone to him for sort of guidance, for historical guidance, ever since I think I saw the movie Gettysburg when I was nine or ten. And the great portrayal by Jeff Daniels of Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain. His father wanted him in the military. His mother wanted him to be a minister. He ends up becoming a professor of rhetoric and revealed religions at Bowdoin College in Maine. For those who aren't familiar of what the state of Maine is, it's a place that's north of Massachusetts and south of Canada and is not either of them, but is often confused for both. But he was born in 1828 and a remarkable figure.

He learned seven, he could speak seven languages, one of which was Aramaic, which is shocking, to say the least. Hebrew is always quite fluent in the ancient languages. Not the person that you would consider to be a future war hero. But when war does come and he requests a leave of absence from Bowdoin College to go off and fight. And they say, no, you're a professor of religion and rhetoric, man. What are you doing? You can't do that. And so he puts in a request to go on a sabbatical to Europe. And they grant it.

And then he goes off and enlists in the U.S. Army, becomes lieutenant colonel of the 20th Maine Regiment. in the U.S. Army, becomes lieutenant colonel of the 20th Maine Regiment. And just a year or so later, during the fateful Battle of Gettysburg, he and the 20th Maine Infantry are posted on the extreme left flank of the U.S. line, attacked by two enemy regiments, outnumbered, outgunned, eventually runs out of ammunition, and makes a very fateful decision. This professor turned combat leader decides, you know, he's got a couple options at hand. One is, you know, retreat. That would seem to be the thing that would make sense. The other, stay and sort of gradually die in place. That doesn't make sense. And then the one that makes sort of least sense, but also sort of makes a crazy amount of sense, is to attack, in which that's what he does. I know there's a lot of debate on just exactly how studied that was, but at the end of the day, he orders an assault.

with bayonets only, driving the enemy before them, capturing many prisoners, saving that portion of the Union line, and possibly saving the US Army that day, and possibly the United States, who knows? Well, Chamberlain gets high praise from you. I mean, he's surely one of the few infantrymen that this exacting engineer regularly praises on social media. I mean, he does, and he gets the Medal of Honor for this later in life. But then this remarkable man, he was leading his, he gets promoted, he has brigade command at the siege of Petersburg in 1864. When he's making the assault, he gets hit.

Now, and I know you know this, but, you know, if you are anywhere, anywhere really before the early 1900s, if you are anywhere, anywhere really before the, um, early 1900s, if you're gut shot, uh, your, your chances are, are not good. Um, and so he was, uh, he was shot through the, uh, thigh groin and intestines and, uh, held himself, held himself up on his sword until his brigade had passed. so that way his men would not see him fall. Finally did fall. Was given up essentially for dead because, well, yeah, I mean, so many infections and in such a bad time.

And it's only because his brother and the regimental surgeon intervened and the regimental surgeon performed sort of exploratory surgery on the guy, an experimental surgery, and were able to patch him up. And within about four months, which is incredible, he's back leading troops again to the end of the war. But that isn't why I thought of him. I mean, that's, I always think of him because who can't admire that type of courage? But he arrives home to Maine. He's quite a hero. He is governor of Maine for four terms.

He is president of Bowdoin College. By 1880, he's in his 50s. And this is sort of, this is where my mind went as I saw people storming the steps of the Capitol. There's this moment at the election of 1880 in Maine, and very contested. The incumbent governor claims irregularities at the polls and refuses to vacate office. claims irregularities at the polls and refuses to vacate office. The incoming governor, the one who won the vote, protests, the senators get involved,

and everybody sort of appeals to Chamberlain. Now, at this time, he's a major general in the state militia. It's an honorary title because of the man that he was. But it does mean he's the commanding general of the militia. And so both sides are saying, hey, you know, we need the militia to come in here and settle this because both sides are also arming. In fact, the incumbents supporters are armed and inside the statehouse. supporters are armed and inside the state house. Now, there are many moments across American history where this has sort of happened. And the armed groups have have fought it out. And there has been bloodshed. Chamberlain arrived on the scene and no one could have blamed him if he called up the state militia secured the area, basically sort of put everything into martial law,

as as things were really verging on a civil war. It was that close. But he arrived, and he elected to not call up the militia. He said, whoever first says, take arms, has a fearful responsibility on him. And I don't mean it shall be me who does that. I don't mean it shall be me who does that, which is just such a perceptive and brave thing to say, not resorting to that draw of power. And he manages to convince again, this is this is what happens when you have a guy who with the you know, he's been a professor of rhetoric. That means using words to get people to do things, you know.

means using words to get people to do things, you know. And so he convinces them to, the governor and his supporters to vacate the statehouse. And for 12 days, he holds a vigil there alone. He has, he does have the Capitol Police are nearby. And he does have his son actually go and fetch his Civil War pistols for him just in case. But there are threats on his life. Both sides attempt to bribe him, saying, hey, choose me and I will make you the senator. And he resists. He says he remains firm, saying, my main object is to keep the peace and to give opportunity for the laws to be fairly executed. He was waiting for the state Supreme Court to make a decision to carry out the laws of the land.

And it's sort of at the height of this crisis that a mob assembles in front of the statehouse. that a mob assembles in front of the statehouse, angry, furious, and aid rushes in to tell Chamberlain that there are men outside who want him dead, who are calling for his death. This is a war hero. This man is one of the greatest heroes that the state has ever had, and here there are people calling for his death. And there are people in the newspapers who are riling up, riling citizens up on both sides saying, you know, he has to go.

He is stopping. He is stopping the cause of justice. And there's this amazing, incredible moment, and I would love to see it depicted on film, although I don't know if you could do it justice, where Chamberlain walks out. on film, although I don't know if you could do it justice, where Chamberlain walks out, he paces down the steps of the statehouse, and he looks at this assembled group, somewhere between 50 and 100 men. And he says this, Men, you wish to kill me, I hear. Killing is no new thing to me. I have offered myself to be killed many times, when I no more deserved it than I do now.

Some of you, I think, have been with me in those days. You understand what you want, do you? I am here to preserve the peace and honor of this state until the rightful government is ceded, whichever it may be. It is not for me to say, but it is for me to see that the laws of this state are put into effect without fraud, without force, but with calm thought and purpose. I am here for that and I shall do it. And if anyone wants to kill me for it, here I am. Let him kill. What do you say to that? You're in that position.

I just, what amount of shame must you feel when he says that is all I can think. And this is what happens is a man jumps from the mob, interposes himself between Chamberlain and the mob and says, By God, old general, the first man that dares to lay a hand on you I'll kill him on the spot. And that sort of settles it. The mob shamefacedly walks away. And after this 12 days of sort of vigil, the state Supreme Court makes their decision.

The laws of the land are carried out and Chamberlain is allowed to go home. And his reputation does suffer from it, because there are many who believe that he was interposing. But looking back on that, the force of character and moral courage and physical courage is stunning to me. And something that I, it just, it struck me as I saw those crowds on the Capitol steps going, what, there has to be, there has to be another way. There has to be, where's the moral courage? Where is that that we look back at as Americans in these moments of history, those individuals who step forward in times of crises.

And I think it's hanging on to that hope that, hey, you know, things have been bad, but we can bring something good out of this. But we can bring something good out of this. You're listening to me talking to one of the most famous sappers on the internet, Angry Staff Officer. More coming up after this. Land a Viking longship on island shores.

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episodes every week douglas adams the genius behind theitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, was a master satirist who cloaked a sharp political edge beneath his absurdist wit. Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth explores the ideas of the man who foresaw the dangers of the digital age and our failing politics with astounding clarity. Hear the recordings that inspired a generation of futurists, entrepreneurs and politicians. Get Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth now at pushkin.fm slash audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold. I mean, it's physical courage, isn't it? But it's also married to such an astute sense of what America is.

You know, in the rest of the world, particularly back in the 19th century, it's the guys with the guns that rule. It's the guys with the holy book. It's the guys with the lineage who trace their family line back to the murky Middle Ages. But in America, they were trying to do something different. There was a Republican project, and there still is. But the events of this week and the events you described with Chamberlain, I mean, it's difficult. It's a really difficult thing.

It is, yes. That's the understatement of the year, Dan. It is so difficult. And God, I mean, it's 1880. I mean, just four years prior, the United States fell to one of the gravest errors that I think the country has ever made, fell to one of the gravest errors that I think the country has ever made, other than allowing slavery to persist past the founding and the Constitution. Because slavery was always the great sin of the nation. John Brown said it. He said, you know, this is the great sin, and it can only be paid for by blood.

And there's another insurrection, which ignited the nation further, a bleed over from bleeding Kansas, the crisis that was happening in the Kansas territories for whether it was going to be a free state, a free soil, or another home for chattel slavery. I think a lot of people don't realize, you know, they just think sort of John Brown went nuts and started killing people. I mean, the guy had members of his family killed for standing up for a free state. He watched other free staters get killed around him and yes then he went and executed people with broadswords um there is uh but it's definitely a a different story than i think a lot of people are taught is it's there there's significant amounts of violence but but in 1876 you have this horrible betrayal of, of the four years that were the Civil War.

The, the Republican Party makes a deal to, to win the, to win the White House, essentially, electing Rutherford B. Hayes on the condition that Reconstruction ends in the South. And Reconstruction is the most misunderstood, I think, period in American history, because what you have is, for the very first time, you've got multiracial assemblies. You have multiracial congressmen and legislators. And all of a sudden, this whole segment of people are experiencing what the Declaration of Independence says, that all men are created equal. And it's this heady time, this exciting time that gets undermined from within by white supremacy through terrorism with the rise of the KKK, but the KKK was not the only one. There were multiple organizations. There were multiple organizations. There were the Red Shirts in South Carolina. There were these sort of paramilitary

organizations that would clash with the state militia, many of whom were African American, fully African American militias, representatives of the state government. And there was this open fighting and the clashing with federal troops. A lot of people don't know, you know, you hear 7th Cavalry and you think, ah, George Armstrong and Custer and poor decision-making. There was a whole battalion of the 7th Cavalry that was garrisoned in the south doing counterinsurgency operations against these insurgents during Reconstruction. And in 1876, this was all undermined through continued violence,

through voter suppression on a massive scale. And all of that eventually came to a head in 1876. Reconstruction was ended. The federal troops were pulled out. And it would be, I believe, I think 1898 was when the North Carolina legislature sort of finally fell to the white supremacists, which eventually became sort of the Jim Crow era, as we call it, this tacit alliance between whites to say, hey, yep, we'll keep the status quo because it's good for everybody.

But, you know, we're just not going to talk about what happens with race. And that's a really horrible, horrible thing. And we are still trying to recover from that, I think. Yeah, listening to you talk about Chamberlain, I'm reminded of about the founders of obsession with Republican virtue. And I sometimes think that Republican virtue was a bit of a catch all term when they couldn't work out a particular piece of the constitution they just thought republican virtue would kind of plug the gap um made it do a little they made it perhaps do a little too much hard work because it does strike me that despite the panoply of legal architecture that we've talked about it still does come down to officials like the Secretary of State in Georgia recently, officials behaving in the public interest?

It always sort of, it does, it does. And we have to sort of take the founders with a grain of salt because, you know, I think I pointed it out on Twitter, but when we say the founders, you know, that's somewhere 250 different people, because you have the people who crafted the Declaration, the people who crafted the Articles of Confederation, which, although flawed, they were our first sort of form of government. And then you have the framers of the Constitution. None of these people got along with each other, I might add. I might add. It was the Constitution. If all you have to do is look at the federalist and anti-federalist papers in American history as a point of going, oh, wow, yeah, now there was a massive dissension there. A big piece of it was over slavery, but a big piece of it was the role

of government. And I think yesterday, a lot of us were really thinking of that moment where in 1787 at the conclusion of the Constitutional Convention, when they finally come to a compromise, just, I mean, they argued over everything, Dan. The size of an army, you'd think that would sort of be free of debate. of debate. But, you know, thanks to the Redcoats, and the American populace had a very strong distrust of the standing army. But didn't... Britain had a pretty strong distrust

of a standing army, so I feel like that was an inherited... Yeah, yeah, that was an inherited quality. There's these are the amazing arguments uh you know george washington was the the president of the proceedings and he just sort of sat there in his chair and listened and probably going inwardly going can i be in valley forge again can okay can we just fight the british again it'll be so much easier listening to the wrangling on and on and elbridge jerry who's this crotchety guy from massachusetts

is talking about how we should limit the size of the army to you know no more than three thousand you know in in in the constitution and finally washington stirs in his chair this august presence and he makes this grumbling aside of saying well maybe we should also add in there that any invading army be limited to 3,000. Just this monumental shade being thrown by this guy. But, yeah, you are right. There is this idea that it is the individual. And I think it's a big conflict, right, in government.

What's the role of the individual government what's the role of the individual what's the role of the group you know what's the social contract that we make depending on your view whether you're sort of Lockie and Hobbesian Rousseauian whatever but you know they all come down to this idea of a social contract of this idea that

we give up a certain individuality in order to be part of a society for mutual protection, common good, yada, yada. But at the heart of it, none of that can work if the individuals are all incredibly selfish. The word militia, which some people around the world have difficulty understanding, and it's used, I think, lazily, particularly by foreign journalists. What is the difference between a gang of armed people, a mob, and a militia? Because it's not semantics, right?

It's not point of view. It's actually legally defined. Well, we get on the militia heritage and tradition. And the members of the Florida National Guard say, well, we were the first because we were with the Spanish. I say, nope, wrong, different militia tradition. Militia in England and in Spain are very different. It goes back to really the 13th century, I believe, in one of the numerous Assizes.

The idea that the role of the citizen to protect the state, but at the behest of the state. And so as the colonies developed, the British colonies in North America, they took on this tradition for mutual defense, for self-defense, and a very powerful idea that got embodied in sort of the American mythos. But after the founding, the Constitution, and then each state forming a constitution,

it became embodied in law what the militia was. And the militia is the citizen soldier. It is those who are called up by the government, by the state or local government, to carry out the laws of the land. And this is fascinating. We can look at really Lexington, the engagement at Lexington. When Captain John Parker mustered his company on Lexington Green, awaiting the arrival of the light companies and poor Major Pitcairn, he was doing so as a representative of the Lexington Committee for Public Safety, which was a part of basically the Massachusetts Committee for Public Safety or the Massachusetts body politic, the legislature, because the legislature had been dissolved by the crown.

And that is a very powerful image because it says, I am here as a representative of my, of the town selectmen, of my elected government to keep the peace. That's it, to keep the peace. I'm not here to start a war. I'm not here to be braggadocious. I'm here to keep the peace. He did not block the road to Concord. They could have just marched on by. But as it happened, you know, there was a church in the way, the column got separated, light infantry went one way, pit car went the other, lost command and control, somebody shot, and here we are. But that's sort of the militia tradition as representatives of the civil elected body that in most state constitutions state it that way, who are the militia they are. Currently, they're the National Guard, the unorganized militia are usually specified as those people who are eligible for military service who may be called up by the governor, by the elected civil authority, in the case of

invasion, insurrection, yada, yada, yada, you know, zombie attack, whatever. But that's what it's not just somebody who says, I have decided I'm a militia, and therefore I am going to, you know, declare war on something or, or, you know, I don't agree with something. So therefore, I'm going to deputize myself. No, it doesn't work that way. And the Constitution allots that power to the states as well. And then eventually through the development of federal and state law, and that's the important thing, this law continues to develop.

It's codified as such as, you know, the militia is the National Guard or some other entity that the state may authorize, but it has to be at the state government level. So when a group of people get together and they're armed and they say, hey, we're a militia, no, you are an armed mob. You are not called up by the governor. You are not even called up by your town council. You are aggrieved citizens who, you know, really should use your First Amendment right to for your petition for redresses. So that's the critical difference. And, you know, no amount of gun-toting-ness is going to change that. I didn't realize enough the essential link between the militia at Lexington and Concord

and the political entity that predates it, that had been established in Massachusetts, you know, as a sort of legal authority? It is. It absolutely is. And that's why the formation of, you know, you could call it a rump government in the colony of Massachusetts, you know, after the closing of the Port of Boston and dissolving the legislature, putting in just absolute authority to the governor, really through the crown, or parliament. I mean, because I always say that the Declaration of Independence is a breakup letter to King George, because everyone sort of was like, hey, look, parliament's mean, but the king wouldn't do this to us. He just wouldn't do

this. It was a sort of shock. I mean, these are the people who in 1763 were drinking their heads off to the king. They loved him because, you know, what a great moment to be part of the British Empire. And then in, it was 12 years later, but that's a topic for another time. But yes, it is absolutely important that these are representatives of an elected body, of a representative body, who are carrying out the laws of the land, not some group that is out to immediately begin a military. They were there to keep the peace in Lexington. in lexington um and uh and had it's it's very interesting to think what would have happened had the light column just continued marching down to concord you know uh you know parker because parker gave direct orders you know do not fire let them pass we are just here to to keep the peace listen buddy listen sapper thank you very very much dude tell everyone how to find you and and

how they can engage with your work uh you can find me tweeting at PPTSapper or search for Angry Staff Officer and then AngryStaffOfficer.com for the blog. looking at the development of a couple different technologies and tactics throughout warfare over time through the micro lens of the individual, sort of the nitty-gritty level, and then at the macro, at the larger sort of perspective. We had a lot of fun putting that together. Thanks, buddy. Thanks for coming on the show. This has been an absolute pleasure, Dan, and yeah, let's do it again soon.

Hi, everyone. Thanks for reaching the end of this podcast. Most of you are probably asleep, so I'm talking to your snoring forms. But anyone who's awake, it would be great if you could do me a quick favour. Head over to wherever you get your podcasts and rate it five stars and then leave a nice glowing review. It makes a huge difference for some reason to how these podcasts do. Madness, I know, but them's the rules. Then we go further up the charts, more people listen to us and everything will be awesome. So thank you so much. Now sleep well. Douglas Adams, the genius behind The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy,

was a master satirist who cloaked a sharp political edge beneath his absurdist wit. Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth explores the ideas of the man who foresaw the dangers of the digital age and our failing politics with astounding clarity. Hear the recordings that inspired a generation of futurists, entrepreneurs and politicians. Get Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth now at pushkin.fm slash audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold. you