Dan Snow's History Hit - Interwar Germany’s Secret Ally: The USSR

Episode Date: January 6, 2020

After the First World War the German Army was in crisis. Limited in the size and its equipment by the Versailles Treaty which ended the war, it was a shadow of the mighty force it had been in 1914. Help came from a surprising source. Soviet Russia.Historian Ian Johnson explains to Dan how it was the Soviets who helped rebuild the German military machine before World War Two. 30% of Weimar Germany's defence spending took place in the USSR. 25% of German officers passed through camps in Soviet soil. This is the shocking conclusion reached by Ian Johnson who has trawled through the archives to understand just how much the German war machine owed to Soviet support. The cash strapped communists were happy to take German money in return for training areas, tank development labs and other activities banned by the Versailles Treaty. The Soviets helped turn the Wehrmacht into a military machine that in 1941-2 came very close to toppling the Soviet state. 

Hello everyone, welcome to Dan Snow's History It. The school holidays are drawing to an end, the vacation is drawing to an end, and we're almost ready to go back to work. Are you looking forward to going back to school, Zia? No. What's your favourite subject? Um, history. Ovs. Well done. It's time for another podcast. This time we're looking at the relationship, the extraordinary relationship,

a Faustian bargain in which Germany sought to rebuild its military forces following the First World War. The Treaty of Versailles banned Germany from having heavy armour, limited the size of its armed forces, banned certain weapon systems. And yet Germany found ways around that by working with an ally putting military facilities and training programs on foreign soil that foreign soil everyone was the good old ussr yep the country with which germany would have the mighty showdown the greatest and bloodiest conflict the world ever seen from 1941 to 1945 was in fact the country that helped put

the german military back on its feet pretty remarkable is here i guess so and here's talk about that subject is assistant professor of military history ian johnson he's at university which is always hard for us brits to pronounce because we sound like idiots but he's at the university of notre dame in indiana he's at the University of Notre Dame in Indiana. He's a brilliant guy and he has written extensively about interwar relations between Weimar Germany and Hitler's Germany and the USSR. Which reminds me, Zia, have I told you enough about the Second World War on the Eastern Front?

Um, let's think. You've told me about 10 gillions, gillion times. There's nothing that you haven't told me about, Dad. What is the most useful thing that I have taught you as a father? Mmm, to load a cannon? I was not expecting that answer. That is possibly true, actually. One day you may have to sponge worm load ram a cannon it may happen

may happen sooner than we think uh so before you listen to the wonderful ian johnson please go we've got our insane january sale on i've been too distracted by childcare to actually take control of all the madness going on the office fire sale. They're smashing up the furniture and putting it in the boiler aboard the Titanic here. Please go to historyhit.tv. You can get a subscription to our new digital history channel. It's like Netflix for history. If you use the code January,

you've got this January sale on. If you use the code January, can you spell January, Zia? Yes. Go on, then. Jay, why do you want me to spell January? Because I can't. Yes, you can. Anyway, write January in the little box and you'll get 30 days for free and then you'll get four months for just one pound, euro or dollar for each of those four months. Insanely cheap,

go for it. So enjoy this podcast, Ian Johnson. Teach your kids how to load a cannon, and then go to History Hit and take out a subscription. Big to-do list, everyone. Enjoy. I feel the hand of history upon our shoulders. All this tradition of ours, our school history, our songs, this part of the history of our country, all were gone, and and finished and liquidated. One child, one teacher, one book, and one pen can change the world. Ian, thank you very much for coming on the podcast. Dan, thanks for having me. Your book is just stunning. And it's a reminder that the fall, the autumn of 2019, we are marking the 80th

anniversary of not just the German invasion of Poland, but also the Soviet invasion of Poland, when they carved up the country between them. But you demonstrate in this book that the cooperation between the Nazis, and in fact, the Germans and the Soviet Union goes much further back. It does. yeah. It begins almost as soon as the First World War has ended. And that's remarkable. What shape does it take? Well, as soon as the Treaty of Versailles is concluded in the summer of 1919, the remnants of the German high command, who are upset about the terms of the treaty, begin to try to seek international partners. And they eventually find help in the Soviet Union evading some of the terms of Versailles.

So beginning in 1922, they'll begin relocating banned military industrial facilities that weren't allowed under the terms of the Treaty of Versailles to the Soviet Union. And eventually, the relationship will grow to a very extensive direct military-to-military collaboration, where hundreds of German officers are, in fact, training on Soviet soil. And is this being done with the knowledge of the civilian politicians in charge of the so-called Weimar Republic, or is this just military decision-makers taking matters into their own hands? Well, that's an important question.

So initially, the relationship is really driven by German military personnel without the knowledge of their own government. There are going to be a series of scandals in the 20s that bring to public attention the fact that the German military, without the knowledge of their own government, is doing all sorts of illegal rearmament work in the Soviet Union. It's not really until 1927 that German politicians are fully aware of what their own military is doing. At that point, they sit down and they request additional information on what exactly is being done. Eventually, they will approve the various German military efforts. At that point, they'll work hand in hand. But for the first

five to six years of the relationship, the military is largely operating independently. For the first five to six years of the relationship, the military is largely operating independently. Is that, I mean, that presumably is a reflection on the instability, the weakness, if you like, of this new fledging Weimar government, this Republican government after decades of Germany being an imperial state ruled over by an emperor. Absolutely. The Weimar Republic, its first task is to negotiate the surrender of Germany in the First World War. It never really generates a great deal of popularity, in part because of that fact. And we'll see them essentially be forced to cut a deal with the German military during the first major communist uprising during the German Revolution, where they essentially agree to allow the German military a great deal of independence, financially, diplomatically, and politically, in exchange for the military's support of the Weimar

Republic. It's an uneasy partnership between the military and the state throughout this period. And yet the military, presumably being run still by a lot of old regime, ancien regime kind of characters, Juncker aristocrats and things, they didn't see any problem with working with the Soviet, the communist Soviets. It's interesting if you read their personal writings. The Germans, obviously, they despise Lenin. They hate the Bolsheviks. They call them some very nasty things in their private correspondence. And the Soviets, of course, return the feeling with gusto, very much disliking and even despising many of these German aristocrats and elites. Interestingly, on the Soviet side, in their private correspondence, they always refer to the Germans as friends, but in quotation marks, indicating exactly what they thought of this

partnership. But they are willing to work together because of their shared antipathy to the new state of Poland, the Treaty of Versailles, the entire international order. And it's interesting, there are a number of deep friendships and personal relationships that will eventually develop over almost 15 years of cooperation during the first phase of the Soviet-German relationship through the rise of Hitler. How interesting. So actually, well, it's truly Faustian. So what was in it for the Soviet Union? Just cash? Well, you know, they played hardball in terms of the negotiations. They wanted to get as much as possible out of the Germans as they could.

So in exchange for allowing the Germans to construct four military bases, jointly operated Soviet German military bases, relocating military industry, setting up training and testing grounds, the Soviets expected full access to German technology. And they also expected the Germans to send enormous numbers of instructors and engineers to assist them. And the scale of the cooperation would become quite staggering. So the Germans will end up training 156 senior Soviet officers in Germany. And these are people including the deputy chief of the Red Army, the head of their training inspectorates, the head of the Red Air Force. And the engineering partnership, various German firms dispatching with German military assistance, engineering teams, will end up playing an enormous role in Soviet industrialization. When the war begins in 1941, 10 of the 18 Soviet tank factories, for instance, had been modernized or built with German finances or technical assistance.

So the Soviets will gain an enormous amount in terms of military technology, industry, and training. The problem on the training side, the enormous numbers of Soviets who will study alongside the Germans, many of them are considered suspect by Stalin because they've encountered Germans and spent a great deal of time with them. And so as a result, the vast majority will be executed or arrested during the Great Purges in 1937 and 1938. I've actually seen the request from the Politburo for a list of all senior Soviet personnel who have spent time alongside the Germans, presumably preceding an arrest order. But you know what's coming, right?

preceding an arrest order. But you know what's coming, right? The next question has to be when people like Zhukov or people were rehabilitated on the outbreak of war in 1941 between Germany and the Soviet Union. Did any of those German trained officers take a leading part in defeating the German invasion of the Soviet Union? Well, it's interesting. You know, there are some who are rehabilitated, but so many disappear that they really don't play a major role on the Soviet side. The military industrial facilities that have been built with German assistance will play a huge role in saving the Soviet Union. A lot of the doctrine that's imported from Germany, the Soviets have a lot of the German playbook because of their work together. Eventually, those lessons will be relearned, but very few of the leading lights on the Soviet side, in fact, are survivors of the

Soviet-German partnership. Ian, was this a direct contravention of the Treaty of Versailles, or was this a loophole in Versailles that actually allowed the Germans to carry out large-scale maneuvers and training on foreign soil? This was something of a gray area. So we see the British and French, certainly by 1927, have a pretty good sense of what's going on in the Soviet Union through spies reports and other intelligence. And they consider it a violation of the Treaty of Versailles, but not one that they are willing to spend political capital and try to prevent. On the German side, they're quite convinced that their activities probably exceed the terms of Versailles. So the Treaty of Versailles was actually forced by the German, Reichstag was forced to pass it into law as a German law. And it certainly violated some of

the requirements about, for instance, producing munitions on German soil. So when they're sending tank prototypes and aircraft, those have to be first built, you know, even in small numbers in Germany. And so those are being built and shipped to the Soviet Union illegally. And they take comical efforts to try to prevent revelations. revelations. For instance, when they start dispatching tanks in 1927 to the main tank and armor warfare testing ground, they're actually going to weld plows on the front of them to try to make them look like tractors, just in case an Allied inspector stops the train that happens to be passing to the Soviet Union. And they'll send all of their pilots disguised as tourists, something German officers are not very good at playing, and maybe the Soviet Union in the mid-1920s wasn't an ideal place for tourists either,

but they certainly act as if they're in broad violation of the treaty with their efforts at secrecy. Land a Viking longship on island shores, scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt, and avoid the Poisoner's Cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series, Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories,

listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. And as towards the end of the 1920s, when the weimar government becomes aware of what's going on does it does it even attempt to curtail these efforts or or does it just embrace them so the the biggest scandal that emerges is in in december 1926 the manchester guardian actually is the one that breaks uh open revelationsations that Germany had been building or assembling combat aircraft in the Soviet Union. The revelations are so dramatic it leads to a vote of no confidence in the Reichstag. The Chancellor is recalled.

It's this major political scandal. We'll see in January, February, and March 1927 there are a series of meetings between German civilian leaders and the military. And the conclusion is quite surprising and fascinating, which is essentially the German civilian leaders say, well, this actually, you're giving us leverage to some degree, and we don't necessarily disapprove of the efforts you're making. Gustav Stresemann, who wins the Nobel Peace Prize, is actually the one communicating with the German military and saying, I'm actually okay with this as long as you follow a certain checklist in

terms of security and secrecy, and essentially will increase the funding for secret rearmament starting in 1928. Wow, that's amazing. And so, I mean, just how important, therefore, between 1928 and the rise of the Nazi party, at what proportion of Germany's peacetime military training and development effort is actually taking place on Soviet soil? It's enormous. So about 30% of the budget for training is being spent on the facilities in the Soviet Union. And those are more or less the legal line. So even more perhaps in black funds and other earmarked accounts. The scale is pretty staggering. So the German military is limited to about 4,000 officers by the terms of the Treaty of Versailles. There are going to be

over 1,000 officers and men who pass through the various training facilities from the German side. So somewhere around a quarter, maybe a little less, of the German officer corps is going through these various facilities in the Soviet Union. Almost every single aircraft prototype being developed is, in fact, being tested by various pilots in the Soviet Union. All of Germany's tank prototypes are being tested and developed there. And in fact, figures like Heinz Guderian, who's considered the father of Blitzkrieg, he's going to go to the Soviet Union when he needs to figure out what tanks are capable of and actually sit down with engineers and German officers who are getting hands-on experience with tanks to actually draw what the doctrines should be. So military technology training

and doctrine without the Soviet Union, German rearmament in the 30s is really not possible. Yeah, so let's come up to the advent of the Nazi party, Adolf Hitler seizing power. Arguably, the Weimar Republic, there were socialists in charge. They may have regarded the Soviets as kin, ideological fellow travelers, but Adolf Hitler specifically targeted socialists as enemies of the state. So how did he, what effect did his coming to power have on this relationship with the Soviet Union? So in 1928, he had begun or he'd completed a manuscript of his second book following Mein Kampf. He actually dedicates a chapter to Soviet-German relations. And he says that he has an inkling that Germany and the Soviet Union had been working together

in terms of military cooperation. And he thinks it's a bad idea for a variety of ideological reasons, his anti-Semitism, his concerns about communism. And so when he comes to power, he's going to start dismantling this relationship. And in some ways, Germany's already gotten what it wanted. It wanted to develop technologies, train lots of officers, maintain military industry and expertise. By 1932, even before Hitler comes to power, the military is actually able to begin bringing large amounts of the training facilities and development back to German soil, as the Allies have withdrawn their various inspection teams that have prevented that from taking place. So Hitler is able to begin bringing those facilities and resources back, but he won't completely disentangle the German and Soviet militaries until 1935, which is when they suspend working on submarine technology together. So he slowly unravels the relationship.

Interestingly, the Soviets are quite eager to maintain the relationship. They're getting so much out of German industrial firms in particular through both espionage on Soviet soil and through direct exchanges that the Soviets will repeatedly reach out to Hitler in 1933, 34, 37, and 38 to try to restore the relationship in some way, shape, or form. This is hugely surprising stuff. I mean, is it possible for you, do you make a judgment, do you come to a judgment as to how significant Germany's role was in the victory of the Red Army in 1945? on the face of it, Germany would not have been able to launch the Second World War, to invade Poland without all of the research and training done earlier in conjunction with the Soviets. But in the long term, of course, the Soviets will end up winning the war on the Eastern Front. And they'll depend enormously on men and materiel developed alongside the Germans. The partnership, particularly the economic ramifications, are enormous, even though Stalin squandered a lot of the training, the human material, through his purges. So I think it's

absolutely essential to the Soviet war effort that they've received so much in terms of tank designs, some of which were borrowed from the Germans, aircraft designs, again drawing from German technology, developing their doctrine, and of course the actual military industrial facilities that produce the enormous numbers of T-34s and other planes and tanks that will enable the Soviet Union to survive and eventually win the Second World War. It's actually ironic thinking about it that when the Germans and the Soviets finally do formalize their, well, their sort of agreement with the Nazi-Soviet pact, and the Soviets supply the Germans with vast amounts of raw materials. At that stage, having had a history

of military exchange, was there any further, was there any suggestion that that might be a good idea again to start these joint programs up again? Absolutely, and in fact they do. So it's a forgotten aspect of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact that, again, Stalin has repeatedly referenced the earlier period known as the Rapallo period because of a treaty that normalized relations between Germany and the Soviet Union in 1922. He references this when he reaches out to Hitler about the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. And in fact, they will resume some elements of their direct military cooperation. In October 1939, the Soviets will go so far as to allow the Germans to operate, open a base on their soil,

which they do, Basis Nord, a naval base near Murmansk, where they're going to base submarines and commerce raiders to go after particularly British shipping. Perhaps the most remarkable direct military collaboration during the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, which again harkens back to the earlier period, is the story of the Comet, which is a German merchant raider. The Soviets allow this ship to sail to Murmansk. They provide it with icebreakers to allow it to transit the Arctic Ocean to the Pacific and then allow it to use a Soviet flag

to cloak its various activities in the Pacific, where it will end up sinking nine British ships in 1940 before returning to Hamburg. So the elements of direct military collaboration become quite extensive and definitely echo the earlier period. When you're writing this book, presumably this is a story that the Russians today do not want being told. So how did you go about doing the research? It's a little tricky. Yes, the Second World War, obviously, the Soviet Union suffers so much during the war, it's still a very sensitive and emotive topic in Russia today. So I worked in British, German, Polish, American, and Russian archives. I spent the

majority of my research time in the Russian Federation. Some stuff is off limits. Some elements of this are off limits. The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was not acknowledged until the 80s, the secret components of it by the Soviet government. There was a fair degree of openness when I was working in Moscow, but my greatest good fortune was to go out to smaller Oblast archives around Russia in vicinity of the various military bases that had been formed by, by Germany and the Soviet Union in this period and look and see what had survived in these local, these local facilities. And I found a lot of times stuff that was off limits in Moscow was available in these smaller regional archives. So, for instance, near the major flight facility at Lipetsk, I found NKVD secret police records, dossiers on all of the German pilots, their sexual proclivities, what they were reading, their personal habits, all compiled by the NKVD. That sort of stuff is off limits in Moscow, but it was still available in these regional archives. So I was very fortunate that there was, in fact,

so much available and a lot of very friendly archivists willing to help me find what could be found. Well, I've got to say, buddy, you might want to cancel next summer's trip to St. Petersburg because I'm not sure you're going to be too welcome there after shining a spotlight on this extraordinary, extraordinary bit of history. Any personal stories from Germans who developed close relationships with Soviets during the war and then ended up fighting on Soviet soil? Yes, there are a number. I've tried to track as many

of these, particularly senior German officers as possible. There's one who is a, he's a division commander when the Second World War begins on the German side. And according to the stories I could find, it was a little unclear in his personnel record. It looks like he had a nervous breakdown early on in the war against the Soviet Union. He fought with distinction in Poland and France. And he witnesses some atrocities being carried out by German forces in Ukraine fairly early in the war. And he requests a transfer and transfers back to Germany, ends up managing motor pools for fairly early in the war. And he requests a transfer and transfers back to Germany, ends up managing motor pools for the rest of the war. So clearly, some officers

were affected in this very visceral way by fighting there. Others were radicalized by their experience in the Soviet Union. So a lot of the officers who served in 1931-32, they developed close relationships with Soviet officers, but they're also witnessing collectivization and famine and et cetera. And so that, coupled with the disappearance of many of their friends during the Great Purges, actually will make them perhaps even more hardened towards communism and more willing to commit atrocity. But one final anecdote. This is a diplomat, actually. So Ambassador Dirksen, who is there throughout this entire period. This is a diplomat, actually.

So Ambassador Dirksen, who is there throughout this entire period. In 1945, he's sitting at his estate in East Prussia, sorry, in Prussia, waiting for the arrival of Red Army forces to his house. And when they arrive, they're looting, they're destroying much of his property. He thinks he's going to be shot. And then one of them notices a photo on his mantle over the fireplace. And it's a picture of Ambassador Dirksen with Klymen Voroshilov, the commissar for war during much of this period. And the two of them were out hunting. It was a photo of the two of them smiling together. And the Soviet officers

immediately apologized, restored the house as much as possible and left and saving his life. This lasting image of the partnership allowing him to live on after the war. That's a remarkable story. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. The book is called? The Faustian Bargain. It's with Oxford University Press, and it will be out next summer. It is Faustian indeed. Well, thank you so much. That was fascinating. Please come on the podcast again soon. Absolutely. Thank you. please come on the podcast again soon absolutely thank you one child one teacher one book and one pen can change the world. He tells us what is possible, not just in the pages of history books, but in our own lives as well.

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