Dan Snow's History Hit - James Bond

Episode Date: September 28, 2021

James Bond is one of the most successful films and book franchises of all time and with the arrival of a new addition to the canon it seemed the perfect time to explore the history of this iconic character. To do this Dan is joined Matt Gourley who is a James bond superfan and host of the brilliant James Bonding podcast. They explore the origins of the character, how the films offer a reflection of society during different periods, some of the more troubling aspects of the character, Dan's family links to 007 and who is the ultimate Bond.

Hi everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. I've got podcasting royalty on the pod today. I've got Matt Gourley, he is an American actor, comedian, podcaster. He's on Drunk History. He's on Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend. He's on Super Ego. And he does James Bonding. He loves James Bond. Now I believe there's a James Bond film coming out, so me and Matt sat down. We talked about the franchise, and it was great to talk with an American fan, because I think we'd be a little more epic when it comes to James Bond.

We all go a bit Doctor Who, and I wonder whether that's something like Doctor Who that we think is good, that everyone else in the world thinks is pastiche. But it turns out he likes Bond. Turns out people actually like James Bond. I'm very glad to see. So we've chatted. We had a good time talking about which Bond we liked. We swapped

some Bond anecdotes. I shared some embarrassing truths about Bond and me and how there isn't really a Bond and me to talk about. You'll see. If you wish to go to watch history programs in a safe place for super history fans, a place where there are no aliens, there are no sharks. Well, there's a few sharks, but they are appropriate to the history, like when it comes to USS Indianapolis. Then you got to go and check out History Hit TV. It's like Netflix for history. We've got hundreds of history documentaries on there. We've got these podcasts without the ads. You're going to love it over there. It's a place where you can indulge your love of history. Go to historyhit.tv, wherever you are in the world. This works in Tonga. It works in Alaska. It works everywhere in between, pretty much. So head over to historyhit.tv.

You get 30 days free if you sign up today. Go and check it out. We had our biggest week ever last week of new members. So welcome, all of you. It's great to have you on the team. In the meantime, everybody, here's the very brilliant Matt Gurley. Enjoy. Matt, thanks very much for coming on the pod. It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me. I'm surprised and excited because I've always had this little niggling concern that James Bond is an obsession, like Doctor Who of us weirdos in the UK. And people say it's like a global brand. We're like, yeah, but is it?

Like, is it just a weird cosplay British imperial decline thing? But here you are, a bona fide American, and you're into Bond. No, I can tell you that your empire still has reach, and this export is a potent product over here, at least in the United States. And why is that? Is it the recent franchise? Is it the Golden Age, Connery, more like what's going on here? I think the entire run, I really think that for better or for worse, for Americans, it distills down what we admire about England in particular, and the UK. And I mean, for me, I probably am a kind of Anglophile, and I just love this other world that's so adjacent to us. But from our perspective, I think a little more sophisticated, to be sure. Tell me the history of the movies, if you like. Was it a hit straight away? Was this always a big deal? Or was there a turning point?

Yeah. And I think that's why the franchise is so significant, especially by the time Thunderball came around. They always talk about Jaws as the first blockbuster, but really, Thunderball was the first global success. And it was huge over here. And so was Goldfinger and everything. But by the time Thunderball, the fourth film came out, the ball was rolling, no pun intended. And from then on out, it was an event and it was only something you could see in cinema. And then we had this phenomenon over here, I think probably in the 70s is when it started, the ABC Sunday night movie. And they often featured the Bond films. And that was appointment television, like Wizard of Oz was on once a year. But then when a Bond movie was on pre VHS, you had to sit down and watch.

It was often something where kids sat down with their dads, and it was kind of the legacy was passed on from Connery to my era, the Moore era. I remember that. I remember that saying. Let's talk about Sean Connery first. How did he make that role? How did he shape Bond? I think he did exactly that. And it was something probably people weren't expecting because he was

a virtual unknown at the time. And there was rumblings of Cary Grant taking the role first, but he didn't want to do a sequel. So they knew already that they wanted to do numerous installments of this franchise. So they found Connery, who was, I think, a bodybuilder at the time. And the producers, Cubby Broccoli and Salt I think, a bodybuilder at the time. And the producers, Cubby Broccoli and Saltzman, weren't sure, but both of their wives assured them that, no, this man that moves like a panther is the right choice. And he just kind of has that dark, aloof mystery, like she said, like a panther. Just assume kill you is leave you alone, and you don't know what it is. And I think that mystery was attractive.

Well, he wore a hairpiece though. So, you know, it was a little manufactured, but some. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Well, first of all, I'm going to ask you the question that obviously you are sick of answering, but favorite Bond. I think it's Daniel Craig. Get out of here.

No, and don't get me wrong. I understand why Connery's the first and the best in many ways. But I think what Daniel Craig has done is he's been able to synthesize everything into this modern version. The franchise was on the verge of dying out and he reinvigorated. And I just love that. He just brought depth in three dimensions that I think a lot of the actors really didn't have before.

As much as I love them all. And believe me, I love Roger Moore too, because like I said, I grew up in that era. And as campy as that stuff is, I tend to like the crazy and the great Bonds. And it's the middle of the road ones that are a little tougher to watch for me. I think boring is the biggest sin you can have in a James Bond movie. So go bad or go good, but do either. What about the transition stories, the succession from Connery to Lazenby is interesting. I got skin in the game here, which I'll tell you about in a second, but talk to me, how did that work? Well, it was just a matter of George Lazenby, as he tells it, kind of barging his way into the auditions. He didn't even have an audition,

and he just kind of by sheer force of will, and if you've heard that man speak, you can believe it, he made that happen. He was an Australian model. He wasn't even an actor. And he just kind of lived and breathed the part. He went to Connery's tailor. He got the haircut that Connery got and came in and just made it happen. But by the time he got that role, his manager had convinced him that Easy Rider and the counterculture was in and Bond was out. And he turned down the next one, even though it wasn't a big hit at the time. but lately it's been really looked at in a different perspective and his movie is revered now. I love that movie. I think it's one of the best. Yeah, I do too. So my dad was a TV journalist, like an anchorman, and he was called in for a,

it's unclear to this day whether it was an audition, a screen test, like a chat. So he went round to this house in like central london and he says they opened the front door they saw he was six foot five and their faces dropped and i'm like dad i mean that may be true but it could also be that like wait are you saying your dad was considered for bond no kidding oh my god because as you know they went around the houses right after college like there was a yeah idea that might just be not a very famous actor and stuff, right? So yeah. Yeah.

And they'd had that success with Connery and I think with Lazenby as well. So that's probably very possible. Wow. Yeah, it was cool. Oh my God. So we all laugh at him. Because obviously growing up when your dad's like a bald guy in his 60s shuffling around the house, we're all just like, you were never going to be bombed.

That's ridiculous. You crazy man. So get something on the pod. find out if that's true and it can either destroy or make a great family story in you know it's better not to dig in just believe it's true let it live in legend that's a good point yeah who else because there's all these endless endless myths about like who turned down like the transfer james bond like is that true? Did Clint Eastwood, were they offered it? It's hard to say. There's all kinds of rumors. I think less than they turned it down or they were offered it, it was more about who was being considered. Burt Reynolds was, I think, being considered, especially in the 70s when American muscle cars and that kind of machismo was big.

I know Sam Neill screen tested. I believe James Brolin did as well. But yeah, there's all these rumors about Clint Eastwood, even Adam West, which is even more ridiculous than what we ended up with, which is Roger Moore, again, who I love. But already, Adam West was doing such a camp performance as Batman. It would have been too much, I think. Yeah, that's crazy. Okay, so Roger Moore, the name you can hardly believe, was it regarded as a departure at the time? Was he what total machismo studs looked like in the 70s? What was the reception at the time? I think it was less the machismo stud and more the suave gentleman. And he, of course, had that history of already playing The Saint

and Simon Templar on TV. So there was precedent for him. And I think of course, had that history of already playing The Saint and Simon Templar on TV. So there was precedent for him. And I think that they probably knew that because of the times, rather than going the Lazenby-Connery route, which I think with Lazenby hadn't proven totally successful, they were going to go the other direction and just have a little more fun with it. And they did. Oh, okay. And I'm going to ask a question that's probably going to really upset me now. Because I remember when I was a kid, Roger Moore was like a thousand years old. How old was he in that period of playing Bond? In View to a Kill, his last film in 85, I believe on set he turned 57.

Okay. Well, you know what? That's good news. Because if you'd said he was 43, I was going to throw myself out the window. No, but he was 45 when he started and he was two or three years older than Connery. So when he started, he was already older than Connery when he finished. Man, that's classic. Yeah. And Daniel Craig is in his early mid fifties as he finishes up this run too. But you know, these days you look so much different when you're in your fifties than you did in the seventies.

That's correct, buddy. That's what I'm hoping. That's what I'm hoping. Yeah, me too. Me too. And what about Ian Fleming? Like in terms of of the foundation story, Ian Fleming's work in World War II, how did he come up with Bond? It seems to me they always say that Fleming had role models in mind for Bond, and that may be partially true. And I think it was probably piecemeal from people he knew. But to me, it seems like Bond is really not Fleming, but Fleming's ego and Fleming's ideal of himself, because the books

are full of his tastes. I mean, the books are really just vessels for him to get out his snobby tastes and what he wanted to eat for breakfast in great detail. And it's really just based on his sense of self, I think. I completely agree. Whenever you're making TV shows about the World War II, they go, this command operation, this was the model for Bond, this raid on the channel lines. I'm like, there's so many models for Bond here. What's going on? I know they want it to be that neat and easy, but I really just think Fleming smoked his 70 cigarettes and drank his bottle of vodka. They looked in the mirror and goes, who am I? Let me show you who I am and just writes it on his golden typewriter there in Jamaica. And that alone, when you know the circumstances of how he's writing these books, he's just a heightened

character. It's easier to believe this is all his dream vision of himself. Speaking of dream vision, there's a lot of aristocratic families around the UK who still go, I think Bond was based on grandpa. Of course. And I include my wife's family in that. My wife's grandpa was called Bunny Phillips, and he was part of that gang with Roald Dahl and Ian Fleming who tried to bring the Americans to the war. And he went around Washington having sex with everybody and drugging people and whatever, including themselves.

And so in my wife's family, I think it's all based on grandpa. And I'm like, again, let's not dig too much into that, right? No, Dan, you've got Bond lore on both sides. I don't know if you have children, but they've got it really. My kids are going to be the singularity. The synthesis. Yeah. The ultimate synthesis. I'm jealous.

What about music? Music's been a thing in those movies, right? Oh, God, it's the best. It's now its own genre. I mean, you could say that there is really a kind of spy rock. The Bond thing was written by Monty Norman, but it was crystallized by John Barry, who did most of the scores for the films. And that style of music, that cool, reverby guitar, it just can't be beat. Even when they take diversions, Madonna's theme for Die Another Day was kind of not received well. It's more of a techno song. And then there's an easy listening couple of songs for Roger Moore's era, which again, I love them, but they're not entirely in place, but somehow they all work. If you just get that E minor descending note chord in there somewhere, you know it's Bond. You're listening to Dan Snow's History. We're talking Bond more after this. What do Tudor men like their women to look like? They should have broad shoulders, fleshy arms, fleshy legs and broad hips.

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There are new episodes every week. I'm always fascinated now when you go back and look at them. I mean, the movies, they're all over the park, right? Because there's the Live and Let Die, which is like a movie of its time, like the blaxploitation vibe. Then there's the Moonraker, science fiction. They went all over the park. Was that deliberate? I think it was at some point. went all over the park. Was that deliberate? I think it was at some point. They had invented a spy action genre and then I guess just ran out of enough runway that they had to keep borrowing

from other places. And then it's weird how the whole thing has turned in on itself. So, so much of the Bond set pieces were an influence on Christopher Nolan when he rebooted the Batman series and Dark Knight. And you can see actual set pieces from those movies taken from Bond films that then by the time they get to Daniel Craig's era, they're taking from Christopher Nolan and the whole snake is eating its own tail. It's really strange. Nowadays, there's so many spy franchises, right? Yeah. Was Bond the original? I mean, I don't know, like before that, were there these big, where it was like romance and the choreography of violence? We now come to expect with the

Bond franchise, for example. Yeah, I think he was the first cinematically. In literature, there was Graham Greene, but even what Ian Fleming was doing was a step removed from that. And then by the time it got to the big screen, it was its own thing. And then it just got dispersed all throughout the next decades of cinema that it had to start borrowing on the things that it borrowed from itself. Like you said, Jason Bourne was a huge influence on the Daniel Craig era because it reinvented it. And then there was room for things like John le Carré and Tinker Taylor's Soldier Spy to come and be the anti-James Bond, the slow, boring, bureaucratic spy stories, which are really interesting too.

I totally believe that in Britain, you go there and you watch images of Bond like going, I'm going to go and do some regime change in North Korea. The reality of the Secret Service in Britain is that most of them are working for the Soviets in this period, and they were this declining power. It's wild. Yeah, it's fascinating. I know you guys, speaking of working for the Soviets, you had Kim Philby and all these people that were crossing over to the Soviets at the time, and that was fodder for James Bond to do things with, but they never really approached it in a deep level. It was always just betrayal and intrigue, but never the philosophical implications of what that's doing to your country, really.

You should probably talk about Timothy Dalton, buddy, because I am a Timothy Dalton fan. I am as well. Yes! Yes, definitely. So good! And he's kind of the forerunner to Daniel Craig. Yes, definitely. I want to go back to Fleming.

I want to make it dark. I think the movies at his time, they weren't ready to go that far. So you get a mixed bag. But he felt like he wanted to go there. And I really like his two movies. Yeah. Did they not work? Why were there no more?

Well, there was a huge legal mess with MGM after the second of his films. And by the time they got around to the third, the public story is that he wanted to move on. But there's been a lot of rumblings and rumor that actually they realized that maybe they wanted to go in a different direction and gave him the gentleman's out basically by saying, we're going to let you say you're moving on. Just because Cubby Broccoli and the whole Broccoli family have always been very graceful producers and treated their cast and crew like family. And I think they just didn't want him to have any kind of embarrassment. That's what I've heard and what I've read. I don't know how true that is, but it seems to check. And then that's when they moved on to the Brosnan era.

And Brosnan, was that when they really embraced CGI? Those movies, they have now a particular feel, don't they? Yeah, they certainly do. Yeah, his fourth film, Die Another Day, when you say embrace CGI, boy, did they. He's kite surfing a tidal wave, and it just is so out of place. Even Brosnan himself laughs at that now. I think it was just a step too far. But as crazy as that is, it's what made them self-correct into Casino Royale. So you kind of have to be thankful for it in some ways. Actually, I'm heretical. I didn't really like Casino Royale. When Casino Royale came out, the Brits were walking around going, no, this is not just a bomb film. This is like an Oscar shout art house. This is a really intense drama. I went to see it. I'm like, what? I mean, there's the darkness. I mean, I think the fighting in its intensity and its choreography was brilliant and stuff.

They'd learned from other fantastic movies of that nature. But I'm not sure, like, looking back, it's just a Bond film. Yeah. When's the last time you've seen it? Have you watched it since then? Maybe I need to go back and check it out. Yeah, I recommend it. Oh, really?

Okay, interesting. Yeah, it's my favorite. What? You're one of those guys. I am one of those. But I have a favorite of everybody's era you know and that's the great thing about the franchise you can just any given day go what mood am i in i'm in a light-hearted mood i'm going to put on man with a golden gun or i want a serious one from russia with love there's something for everyone that's certainly true we should talk about women because one thing we talk about a lot in the uk

is how in the early days they used to like punch women and stuff like as foreplay it's insane it's insane it's truly insane and thank god the movies have adapted to the times and the books are even worse in terms of adapting to the times was that provocative or was that actually what things were like in the 60s and 70s elsewhere in cinema? That's a good question. I think in movies that consider themselves gritty, yeah, you would see that in cinema. Whether that was provocative or a reflection, I don't know because I wasn't there. But either way, it makes you very uncomfortable and it's hard to watch, especially in the early Bond movies, because generally they are lighthearted entertainment. And when that stuff creeps in, it is so jarring to see.

And it's really hard to contend with. And that's one of the reasons I love the Craig era because they've not only gotten rid of just the outright misogyny and violence, they've just kind of taken a turn from the exploitation of women and given them a lot more agency and power. And that's not something easy to do with the Bond franchise. That's built on really misogyny in many ways. So it's impressive. Yeah. I remember Halle Berry's character. They were thinking about spinning off a whole franchise there, right? So the times have definitely changed.

But I think Bond's about to be dragged into cultural wars, right? Because the next Bond's going to be an interesting one if it's a person of color. And it seems to be a bigger issue in the States than it is here. What's your sense of where it's going? I really have no idea. I know there was that whole dust up when people were floating Idris Elba as a possible contender for the next Bond, who I just think would be incredible. Of all the actors I can think of, it has got that kind of gravitas and just that depth of character that I think he would be amazing. But the producers themselves have said they're not even thinking past this film. And for once, I kind of believe them because I get the feeling Barbara Broccoli and Michael Wilson are kind of

nearing their end of the custody and may give it to another generation in the family. So maybe they aren't really thinking about it. I really have no idea whether they're going to stay with the Daniel Craig style and do serialized stories that kind of unfold over multiple films or just go back to episodic ones. I don't know. Okay, yeah, tell us about that. Who owns Bonk?

Tell us about the family tradition. Well, it was originally Cubby Broccoli and Harry Saltzman. And then Harry Saltzman made a series of bad investments and had to sell his share. But rather than sell it to his partner, he sold it to, I believe at the time, United Artists, which is now MGM. So Broccoli family and MGM are co-owners, but I think Broccoli has control creatively. But then MGM was just sold to Amazon and that deal is about to finish. And so nobody knows what the actual fate of this is going to be. And I'm sure Amazon's going to want to milk this franchise into TV shows and spinoffs where the Broccoli family wants to just keep it simple, cinematic movie events every couple of years.

Yeah, because the lesson from Star Wars, which has also seemed to be a washed up franchise 15 years ago, the lesson from Star Wars is like really clear. You just spin off in every goddamn direction, right? Yeah. But it kind of bit them in the ass. They didn't really land that. Marvel's had a great success of that, but Star Wars has not had such a great success. And I think Bond, as big as it is, it's a family-run business. And in so many ways, it's a boutique. They do well to just keep it quality over quantity, I think. Well, you're talking to a guy who, my daughter, the Mandalorian looms pretty large in her cultural landscape.

So listen now, I'm going to finish up by sharing my little Bond story. I've given you the story on both sides. So I came back from a plane once, right? And I was feeling very pleased with myself because I was working for a commercial broadcaster. I was flying business class, which is unusual for me. Usually I work for the BBC.

We go in the income. So you're living the bond lifestyle so i'm living those i just had the best day shooting i ever had i was in pompeii crawling through tunnels robber tunnels so excavated by present-day robbers who'd been looting antiquities have been found by the police i'm down there with the police looking these tunnels seeing these amazing antiquities i was seriously pleased myself i'm sitting on a plane i'm flying back from italy i feel like the man this old guy sitting next to me okay my shoes are covered in mud and i'm like i'm kind of busy here because i'm kind of a big deal he goes oh you know what have you been your shoes are covered what have you been doing i go actually

i've been doing some filming so you know he goes i've been doing some filming too i was like oh okay well that's nice whatever honestly and i go what have you been filming and he goes i've been doing some filming too i was like oh okay well that's nice whatever honestly and i go what have you been filming and he goes i'm filming the new bond film and i was like threw my laptop away just like in the bin and he's like oh hey oh yeah tell me all about it so it turned out that was michael g wilson i say it's my oh my god yeah and they filmed a sequence in this amazing place in southern italy which the name I forget, but it's where there's lots of cave dwellings. Yeah, Matera, right? There you go, Matera.

And so then I'm chatting away and we're talking about Bond. I tell him my family story about Bond. And you know what? At the end of that flight, do you know what he did? What? Absolutely nothing. Got out of his seat and walked off. I never saw him again.

That sounds about right. It was me thinking, this is the Lazenby story all over again i'm in it's all good here oh goes you were so close so glad he looked at me he looked at the bill of goods he's like no thanks i'm out of here he started with your muddy shoes and there was a real prospect and then he's a scandal listen i accept the fact that i, like my dad, I just didn't have what it took. Didn't have what it took. Yeah.

I've long since reconciled with the fact that I'm not a Bond. I'm more of a Q and that's okay. And I'm aging into an M. So it's just all right. Don't do yourself down. For you listening on audio, I'm looking at Matt and I can tell that isn't true as being very modest. Have you seen the new movie yet?

Do you get privileged access? No. Well, I have a ticket to the premiere on the 28th of September, but my wife is due with our first child on the 27th. So it's not looking good. Wow. For the baby. I mean, I'm not going to be at the birth. I'm just kidding. But no, of course I will. So I don't know when I'll see the movie. If the baby's late and my wife feels comfortable, maybe, but I don't know that I will. So it'll probably be well after the baby's born. And that's just the way it cookie crumbles. That's how it goes, man. Yeah, we've all got those stories. Listen, Matt, tell everyone how they can listen to your brilliant podcast. James Bonding is available anywhere podcasts are found. And we haven't recorded in a long time,

but we will be in the next couple of days so there will be a new episode about the upcoming no time to die and at some point whenever i can get away from the baby we'll do an episode about the film in the month of october sometime so there will be new stuff very shortly amazing thanks so much matt that was great thanks dan great. Thanks, Dan. I feel the hand of history upon our shoulders. All this tradition of ours, our school history, our songs, this part of the history of our country, all were gone

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