Dan Snow's History Hit - Jan Stangreciuk: Veteran. Hero. Guinea Pig.

Episode Date: March 15, 2020

Of all the clubs in the world, perhaps the most extraordinary is the Guinea Pig Club, a group of Second World War veterans that suffered terrible injuries and were then treated by pioneering surgeon Archibald McIndoe. Today there are only a handful left. Dan visits Jan Stangreciuk, one of the few surviving members, to hear his remarkable life story.

Hi everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hits. We've got another Second World War veteran for you this time. He's one of the last surviving members of the so-called Guinea Pig Club, a drinking club started for people that were operated on by the unit in East Grinstead, Surrey, run by the legendary, the pioneer of plastic surgery, a guy called Archie McKindo. He was a genius. He helped to rebuild men's faces, but also their lives.

He gave them the courage to face the world anew after they'd suffered often hideous, hideous burns when planes had crashed, for example. The gentleman you'll be hearing from now was born in Poland. His name is Jan Stangrejciuk. He moved to Argentina as a teenager, but he volunteered to serve in Britain's RAF to try and do his bit so that his mother country would be liberated. It's an extraordinary interview. If you want to watch this interview and see, frankly, what an extraordinary job the team at East Grinstead did 80 years later, you can go to historyhit.tv. It is the place where all the previous episodes of the podcast are, the entire podcast archive that's not available anywhere else. It's available on historyhit.tv. And there's hundreds of history documentaries on there. Now we've got Jan and we've got Roger Morehouse, great friend of the podcast. He has been on so many times. He is a

brilliant Second World War historian. his most recent book is called first to fight and it charts the story of the polish campaign of autumn 1939 so roger morehouse kindly put me in touch with jan and he's on the documentary talking about the polish role and that of m and like jan in the second world war so please go over and check that out. And then while you're there, stick around, listen to the back episodes of the podcast and obviously watch one of the hundreds of other documentaries there as well. Every so often, the team in the office

kind of fall in love with a film and a subject and Jan is definitely that guy. And so we're going crazy. We're offering our very rare three-month sale. If you sign up to history.tv this weekend, just for podcast listeners, you use the code POD3, P-O-D-3, you get a month for free. Then you get three months for just one pound, euro, or dollar for each of those first three months. It is frankly a ridiculous deal. It will take you through, so that's a month free,

then three months, four months away. So it'll take you through so that's a month free then three months four months away so it'll take you through to high summer to a time when we'll be congregating again drinking again laughing again hopefully after we flatten this curve it's rather a wonderful thought anyway in the meantime you'll be able to get historyhit.tv for just one pound euro or dollar for each of those first three months so check it out use the code pod three it's back for a very limited time only pod three at checkout the world's best history channel in the meantime everybody enjoy this remarkable account from one of life's great survivors i feel the hand of history on our shoulders all this tradition of ours, our school history, our songs, this part of the history of our country, all were gone and finished and liquidated. One child, one teacher, one book and one pen can change the world. What is your heritage? Were you born in Poland?

What is your heritage? Were you born in Poland? Yes, I was born in Poland. And in 1935, my parents decided to emigrate to Argentina. Why did they do that? Were they worried about the coming war? Yes, in a certain way. Yes, they had experience passing through the first war and they knew the second war is unavoidable. So you were born in Poland. When were you born? I was born 18-4-1922. That's confidentially, I tell you.

I won't tell anyone. I think you're an imposter. You look about 30 years younger. Thank you. And how old were you when you left Poland? I was 15. Why did you leave? Because, you see, Poland was, as you know, regained their independence after the first war. And after, the Germans were looking for expansion of their territory. So your parents were worried that Poland would... Yeah, my parents were worried because the Germans used to put pressure on Poland to let them all the troops to invade Russia.

And Poland didn't want to make to Germany any arrangement to do that and we just wanted to be living with our short independence and without being involved with the Germans you know plan what they had to expand. And so your parents were they worried about war coming? Yes. And when you were in Argentina, a teenage boy, did you feel Polish or did you feel Argentinian? I feel Polish. I feel Polish because I had to learn Argentinian language, the Spanish language. And of course, there was a different life, what it was, I would say, in Poland and in Europe. The country was very big and very few people were living in Argentina. And when you heard the terrible news that Hitler had invaded Poland, how did you feel? We had treaty before Germany invaded Poland between England and France and we were given very strong promise when the Germans attack Poland what we get military help from England and France. So you see we've been very happy,

but as Germans attack Poland, then Russians on the fourth day attack Poland from the east. like Poland from the East. So you see Poland completely lost heart to fight those super power nations. You were a teenage boy in Argentina. How did you feel? I felt upsetting what my country only had such a short time living independently and making quick progress to recover after lots of years of occupation. I had very big hard hard patios for my country and I knew volunteers going to England to fight Germans during that time and I apply for that advertisement I think it was mostly British French who decided to emigrate and I joined in. So you were prepared, even though you were in Argentina, safe.

You could have had a nice life. You wanted to risk your life. Yes, yes, quite true. Because I tell you why. the Germans knew what England was getting close of supplies from Western approach and the problem was they had lots of battleships cruising crown South Atlantic and lots of submarines making very big damage to the sea communication what were heading to England with precious supply because big convoys bringing supply to England got escort from battleships you see so they were much safer but those big liners who as the war started luxurious passenger liners they were

converted to carry meat food supply during the war so the germans were making terrific gains but doing damage to supply what was heading to england from western approach but you as a young boy your mother and father they've taken you to actually to be safe from the war and now you were going back to the wall yes what did your parents say my mother for the last month before my ticket arrived for the journey to England was every time when we shot to have a meal she was looking and crying And I was so happy the sooner I could get on the boat to England. So, I mean, I won't be making so long upset for my mother. My father was in the first war, also military man. So he gave me my own decision. He told me, if you decide to go with lots of volunteers, you do it as you like, he said, because you decided what

you want to go and if I stop you, I probably will be to blame and I decided to go. Now it's 80 years later you suffered during the war was that the right decision to go? Yes, yes it was because I tell you without having trust in England and France at that time, I think Europe may be different England, what we probably have to take risk in the end to tell Germans their expansion is stopped. And our Prime Minister, Neil Cherblin, in the end he knew what Hitler never give him promise, what it will be peace in Europe. But for you personally, you could have lived in Argentina, had a nice farm, and instead you got terribly injured in the war,

but for you, was it the right decision? Yes, because I tell you why. As my country regained their independence after 100 years, we were proud to be free. Because in those days, the Russians occupied half of my country and the Germans second half. half of my country and the Germans second half. And they were always very, very badly treating my people. And I thought I had the biggest intention

to come to England as that war started because the Germans, as the war started, they were almost proud and very sure that Europe is under their control. But I thought, I must go, as England at that time was a very big superpower, yes? And I thought, if they stop the Germans, I thought somebody have to go and face it too. And I decided that nobody will stop me going. But the trouble was, as we left Buenos Aires at night, everything was so secretive because the Germans had their spies all through South America. So we've

been told never talk to strangers as we were waiting for our big boat to start sailing. And when we left Buenos Aires our boat started zigzagging, not going straight line because the German submarine was pinpointing those big liners and waiting for them. So at one time we had to hide ourselves to Trinidad harbour, that's a small island on the coast of South America. So our boat, instead of taking three weeks to come to Belfast, took much longer. It take three weeks to come to Belfast, took much longer. And when you arrived in the UK, how were you treated? Were the people happy to see you? I think English people were almost to us,

give everything heart. They knew we came to England and we had that determination to fight with them. We had everything we could expect no more as the people gave us during that time. And what did you join? What branch of the services did you join? Yes, soon as I had my medical board, you had to decide what unit you select for yourself. To Royal Navy, or to RAF, or to Army, or to other units. And of course, when you're young, you thought the flight was the most exciting for the young fellow, because as you know, there was much better pay, more promotion.

And you see, you get social, I would say, popular between the people. Because we had for boys in RAF uniforms always big respect what they were facing. And popular with the women? Ah, women, thank you for asking me. They were wonderful. I tell you why. Because you see, we pause during that time. We wanted to learn English.

And we've been told the quicker, that's true, to learn English, if you find yourself girlfriend. Because you find yourself girlfriend, because you find yourself girlfriend and you start communicating with her, you see, by letter. And that's sometimes you instead of sleep, you thinking how could you put that letter in proper wording. So you see, you always used to make progress to learn English because we attended to school in spare hours. But we also had lots of support from the girls till Americans came. When Americans came, they made little competition with the dollars, you see. But never mind, we were before them. We came to England and we felt we had upper hand over Americans.

And in the RAF, did you serve alongside many famous other Polish airmen or were you with a British crew? We had part of English training, part of Polish instructors, but mostly Polish pilots and Polish different members of the bomber crews, they had, I would say, already doing their active job. you see and we in evening had to attend school to learn after our supper to make progress much as possible and in the end after a few months I start corresponding with letters to my different friends and I was almost so happy that I could speak Spanish and English on top of that. Yeah, three languages, very impressive. Was your first active service in a Lancaster? No, no. My first service was Wellington. Two engine bombers. Very old. First in the, as the war started, that was our, the best bomber. Were you doing daylight raids in those Wellingtons? Yes, we, but we, we've been doing mostly flying at night. Our mission, what we used to do, because we've been trained to fly at night.

And what date was this? When did you start flying those Wellingtons? So we used to fly over France, General Petain as a leader of that part of France, what was under French rules, to drop leaflets and give them support, what we're still fighting, and we're going to regain for them their freedom. And when did you start dropping bombs? And when did you start dropping bombs?

During my training to get bigger mission on the program to go and bomb Germany, I had continuous training. We had maybe two more weeks being prepared to our missions will change from easy easier mission what we've been doing from beginning but to start bombing Germans and we were flying at night. Was this the summer of 1940? We already... Yeah, 42. By now we're in 42. And during that special night mission we had to go over North Sea as close to the German border as possible and during the takeoff one engine failed and that's when I crashed you see. How many minutes, how many seconds after taking off? I think maybe few seconds. That's why the people who when we crashed, they knew. And those people were brave, because first, when I recovered my memory,

I wanted to go to the front of the plane, because I was thinking, maybe I will be helping some members of the crew in front, because there is pilot, navigator, wireless operator in front of the plane. And I was going but the plane was not burning yet. So I was able to walk in front of the plane. And then suddenly, when I reached pilot, he was still tied up.

The plane exploded because there was still lots of fuel in the tanks. When you woke up, were you bleeding? Were you hurt? up were you bleeding were you were you hurt i didn't feel what i was seriously received certain injuries but i was very wobbly and i knew i have to slowly try to reach the front of the plane and see what's happening to my members of the crew. Were they your friends? Were you close with them by that time? Yes, very much so. We were more than brothers together, you see, because we knew we We fight our lives one for another one. So you see, it was terrific friendship, you know, to develop. And as I reach my pilot, I've been trying to pull him out, and I knew he was still stripped with his belt because he gave us order.

He said, we cannot bail out because we have not enough, but we're heading for crash owing to engine failure so I couldn't pull him out and I thought what I'm going to do now because at that time plane explode with lots of fuel who spread underneath and I was left hopeless. So I couldn't see nothing, so I cover my left side of my face with my left hand and with my right hand I tried to look for exit. Luckily During the crash, my wellington was broken in half. I somehow could see a very difficult view when I opened my eyes, but there was a bit of daylight. And through that exit, I squeezed myself out of the plane. But I was already, my flying suit was ignited in fire. And I was on my ground trying to get as far as possible out of, a bit of distance from the plane. And during that time, people who came

and tear my flying suit from me, because you see, when the plane exploded, some of the fuel was everywhere and some spray on my flying suit. When he exploded that fire, I was in cloud of fire. The plane was all covered in fire, you see. So I was lucky what somehow with that last glance through that exit what I could feel with my hand got myself out.

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There are new episodes every week. history hits. There are new episodes every week. And did any of the other crew survive? No. You see, because they were in front and the heaviest impact, you know, it's always in front, you see, because there is engine and so on. I was lucky because I was rear gunner, you see. And for that reason, that crack on part of the plane, what I squeezed myself out. And how bad were your injuries? Oh, I'm glad you asked that.

I would have been happier if somebody during that time really shot me a few times, because the pain, the fire, is the biggest enemy what you could face. But those people were almost, when they tear my flying suit, I was almost fire, hair, everything I lost, see and I said to because everything was threat in my but they were telling me those people thank you for asking me what they already formed for the ambulance and they were promising me you you'll be all right, don't you worry, the ambulance is already on its way. But the pain was shocking, shocking. And soon as ambulance came, they also started telling me, don't you worry, you'll be all right, that's nothing happened much. We're taking you to hospital.

And they took me to Cosford Hospital near Wolverhampton, REF Hospital. And of course they gave me pills and injection quickly, and they put me to sleep. and they put me to sleep and when I recover my sleeping I can say nothing only I knew the doctor was close by talking to nurses and giving them advice, I think, what they have to give me when I woke myself up. And they told me what they're going to do. They're going to give me every day a hot bath and tear the dressing, you see, what I was covered all my head years because they

must change the dressing every day full of oil on it wet in oil so when they put you new dressing with oil, they don't get hard healing. So they every day fresh dressing. They take the old one out and put the new one. And that's how the first skin, whatever skin, will start to cover that burnt part of your body. And during that time, after one week, continuously having the same procedure, you see that bath, that big doctor came, Sir Archibald McIndoe, because he used to go and visit those different hospitals and people who are badly burned will take them to his Grinstead Hospital in Sussex. So my local doctor from that Arlieff hospital, Cosport, came and he said, Jan, listen, today you will see one of the very important doctors.

And he said, I don't know what he's going to decide. You probably will have to be transferred to another hospital." But he said, I'm not sure what he will decide. So when he came, he patted me on the shoulder. He said, I came to see you from another hospital. So I said, thank you, doctor. He said, and how do you feel? How they treat you? I said, I could ask for nothing now. He said, don't you worry, I take you to my hospital. And he mentioned his Gronstadt. He said, will you be happy to be moved from here? I said, doctor, I cannot see you, but whatever decision you make, if you think it will be in my favor, I'll leave it to you. He said, yes, tomorrow they bring you by ambulance.

my hospital you find different nation of your colleague polish english french he said canadians he said all different mixture and when mackindo how many operations did he do on you to repair He did about, I would say, 15 what I know. But one was the biggest one, so that was about six hours lasting. And where did he replace the skin? Your main skin has about four different layers of skin. So they don't take all four, they take half, maybe two thin skin. And of course they have to remove that burnt skin because it always will stay very red, you see, and they have to completely tear that skin and put the new one. So, you see, they take you for a long operation and they take part of your tummy.

And how many months were you in the East Grinstead Hospital? Yes, I spent about four months in the Green State Hospital and I made some progress because certain things they did quickly because they knew if they don't put it quickly then afterwards the new skin would never accept joining so they did during six months about maybe five operation big one first on hands because you see your veins, once your veins start, will be closing and you never recover. So you see, they had to make sure what they put, because up to now I had burning hands. And the hospital was so overloaded with new cases coming day and night. So what they do, once they little help you to recover, they send you to your station. there was not enough hospitals to accommodate so many people coming from different accidents. So when they sent me to my station I reported to my

commanding officer. So he looked at me and he said, well, warrant officer, I was already promoted then to warrant officer from sergeant, you see. He said, and what you think you going to do? Looking at me, I said, sir, what I want to do? I want to do what I was taught to do, fly. So he looked at me, he said, didn't you have enough flying? Yes. I said, sir, but that's what I want to do.

I said, I decided and I thought I still should continue he said I'm glad you still think you will be able to do what you've been doing but he said first of all I have to give you another test will you be able to do that?" So he told me, he gave me test with another two doctors. They will take off with me and look my reaction, how I will feel. So for two hours flying, I was sitting with those two doctors and they were asking me certain things. And when we landed, they told me they're going to leave all the report to my commanding officer. So I sent them. On the next day, my commanding officer left message he want to see me.

So when I was going to see my commanding officer, I was almost nervous in case probably they decide what I have certain effect after that crash but I said I have to go and listen what he will tell me so when he I went to his office he said sit down I sat he He said, I had your report given to me. And he said, by rules, as you was determined to fly again, and whatever test you pass, I have no power to stop you to fly again, yes. And he said, will you think you will be able to do your job as before the accident? I said, sir, I probably will have even bigger now experience and happiness to return to do my job because she said I have nothing else to lose now.

And I did another few operations, but then my squadron was converted to Lancasters. For how many missions did you fly Lancasters? About 12. I did 12. And hospital recalled me. For more operations? For more, because they said it is in the rules. You know, everything should heal one after another. And when you were flying, were you more scared, more traumatised about another crash or was your mind okay?

No, no. You know why? Because I had such a hatred to Germans. What was this figure, you know what I mean? And you blamed the Germans for your injuries? Yes, I did. I did, yes. And I saw during my service what Sam Cruz didn't came back. And I also had that close in my hatred.

What they started the problem and so many people losing their life. My hospital asked me to go back, so I took that letter to my commanding officer. I said, sir, I have very bad letter. My hospital want me to go back. He said, yes, I received the letter also. So you should be very happy. I said, no sir, I'm not very happy. I said, I would like to continue.

So he turned to me, he said, no, you should be very happy. Or they still want to do something to help you. He said, because otherwise you will be facing your life as you are now, not what you should look. What was the response like from people, from your friends, from your crew? How did they respond? You see that hospital in East Greenstead, that is the town when people never stare because those people knew what we lost our disfigurement and other injuries, some lost leg or arm or whatever. They knew what kind of job we were doing and they did stare at us. That's why we love the people in that East Green State. They give us heart

and we used to continue to have our reunion there for many, many years after when war ended. when war ended, and some of the boys came from Australia, from Canada, for two days reunion to use Greenstead. But now is discontinued because is very few left those boys here. I'm one of them from Polish, you see. And if you hadn't had plastic surgery, would your life have been very different? Oh, yes, yes.

Maybe in that town, people in Greenstead, they got so used to so many of those people. And the doctors, not Sir Archibald McIndoe, he had such a big responsibility how many people quickly as possible to rebuild them. That doctor, not only what he tried to rebuild better bit of your look for the future, but mentally to recover too. Lots of them turn to live different life, taking to drinking and losing self-control and many, many things happened. I tell you the last little important thing what I remember.

When I land myself in hospital, my wife, I mean during that time, my wife just girlfriend find out from my friends what happened to me because she wrote to my friend and she said she had no news from me. She replied to her and she said she had accident and he is in hospital so my dear Francis said which hospital be in London because I met her in London you said he said no she's somewhere in Sussex but he said we are on holiday so he said I have his address at base you know in the squadron so she said when you get back please phone me and tell me his address so he did and on Saturday I remember Saturday about one o'clock, a staff nurse came and she said, Jan, there is some lady want to see you. And she came and she said, what happened to you? Why didn't you phone me what happened?

I said, but look at me, my hands all bandaged. And I said, I'm not very presentable to tell you what happened. She said, but you shouldn't do that. She said, you're not only one what's happening. She started to give me a bit of more spirit. But I said, if the doctors will help me and put me more suitable to have holiday, then I said, I probably will see you, yes.

Or she said, not probably, you make sure. I said, how did you came? She said, by train. I said, what about your car, what you have? I have no petrol, she said. My car is out of use, so I took her back to the station, it's about a couple of miles, and thank her for visit. She said, why I came to visit you? Because, she said, most of those boys, they have family come to see you, but I knew you have nobody.

And those words catch me up to now. And when war ended, I married her, because that's what we give each other, promise. She was wife, but I won't sell her for weight in diamonds, because she knew how to help me in the end. The Guinea Pig Club, we hear about it. Was it important for you all to stay together and stay in the club? Yes, yes, that was friendship, that was friendship. And when that year came, what we always had in September, Battle of Britain,

East Greenstead knew it was like carnival here, you know what I mean? And people accept us. If you decide to go on your own, you still can stay in that hotel, Felbridge Hotel in East Greenstreet. And you all, the reunion helped you, helped you. Yes, yes, they helped us. They helped us because mentally, you see,

that was the important time. And that doctor, sometime in evening, when he finishes all day operating he will pop to the cocktail bar to that hotel Whitehall in East Greenstead and we always wear uniforms if we could walk to town we were allowed to go evening, you know, to cinema. So sometimes he would meet us in bar, in cocktail bar, have a glass of beer or glass of wine to give us more self-confidence, you know what I mean. He was a man. What he knew not only to put the skin on our faces,

but how to rebuild our mental, you know, feeling. And we will remember him for the rest of our life. I feel we have the history on our shoulders. All this tradition of ours, our school history, alive. He tells us what is possible not just in the pages of history books but in our own lives as well i have faith in you hi everyone it's me dan snow just a quick request it's so annoying and i hate it when our podcasts do this but now i'm doing it i hate myself please please go on to itunes wherever you get your podcasts and give us a five-star rating and a review it really helps basically boosts up the chart which is good and then more people listen which is nice so if you could do that I'd be very grateful I understand if you don't subscribe to

my tv channel I understand if you don't buy my calendar but this is free come on do me a favor thanks you