Dan Snow's History Hit - Korean War: The Veterans Of Imjin River

Episode Date: January 17, 2022

Fought between the 22nd-25th of April 1951, the battle of Imjin River was part of a Chinese counter-offensive after United Nations forces had recaptured Seoul in March 1951. The assault on ‘Gloster Hill’ was led by General Peng Dehuai who commanded a force of 300,000 troops attacking over a 40-mile sector. The 29th Independent Infantry Brigade Group, under the command of Brigadier Tom Brodie, of the 1st Battalion Gloucestershire Regiment, was responsible for defending a 15-kilometre section of the front, over which General Peng Dehuai sent three divisions of his force. What resulted was the bloodiest battle that involved British troops in modern history since the Second World War.Taken from the 2021 Gloucester History Festival, Dan is joined by two battle veterans of the 1951 Korean War battle, Tommy Clough and Brian Hamblett. Tommy served as a gunner with the Royal Artillery which was attached to the Gloster, Brian served in the British military in Infantry manning machine guns in his platoon - both were Chinese prisoners of war for more than two years. They join Dan to explore the battle of the Imjin River on what was its 70th anniversary.If you'd like to learn more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad-free podcasts and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe today! To download the History Hit app please go to the Android or Apple store.

Hi everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History. This is a very special episode indeed. A few months ago I went to the Gloucester History Festival and I met two veterans from the British Army's 1st and the Gloucester Regiment, better known as the Glorious Gloucesters, because of what happened on this river in Korea in April 1951. So Mark, the 70th anniversary of the battle, I met with Tommy Clough. He was actually a gunner with the Royal Artillery, he was attached to the Gloucesters, and Brian Hamblett, he served in a machine gun platoon in the Gloucesters, and they were both at the battle, they were both Chinese prisoners of war, as you'll hear, for more than two years. The Battle of the Imjin River is

probably the single most remarkable, most memorable, brigade-sized action the British Army has fought since the Second World War. In the spring of 1951, a massive Chinese offensive against United Nation forces in South Korea had begun. They were trying to retake Seoul. The front line had been seesawing up and down the Korean peninsula. We've got several podcasts available on the Korean War, which you may want to go back and listen to either on this feed or on History Hits TV, our digital history channel where we have all our podcasts, we're out the ads, and all our television shows as well, hundreds of hours of TV shows. So head back and listen to one of those. But we're talking about the spring offensive of 1951 now. A massive Chinese force assaulted a

section of the UN line composed of Northumberland Fusiliers, the Gloucesters and other units. The local commander was Brigadier Tom Brodie and he was responsible for about a 15km section of the front. The battle that followed had the highest casualties of any British action since the Second World War. It was amazing talking to Tommy Clough and Brian Hamlet in Gloucester about their experiences. As you'll hear, they were irrepressible. In fact, at the end

I have to interrupt them because I was at a live history event and people had to go to other talks. No one wanted to leave but they kind of had to because they needed the room for another talk. Some poor historian was coming on. Very tough act to follow. I am going to go back to Gloucester. I'm going to interview these remarkable men again for History Hit TV. So you'll be able to watch as well as listen to these fantastic people. If you follow the link in the description to this podcast, you'll get taken to History Hit TV. You'll get two weeks completely free.

You can check the whole thing out. We've got all the podcasts on there, like I say, and we've got hundreds of hours of history documentaries as well. This was a wonderful experience, particularly after months of lockdown, to get back in the room with two card-carrying legends. So enjoy this conversation with Tommy Clough and Brian Hamblett. Hello. Hello, everybody. Welcome, welcome, welcome. It's a great excitement to be back. This is very exciting for me because I was intending to make the most of the Korean commemorations. This is a big, under-understood, under-remembered war in British history.

We've got wonderful veterans still alive that we can talk to. And we've got the huge anniversary this year we can talk to. And we got the huge anniversary this year and last. And it was all cancelled because of COVID. So tonight's a very special night for me because it's a chance to get in the same room as two legends, two national treasures to talk about the Imjin. We got Tommy Clough, who was 19 when he went to Korea. Now, he's an artilleryman. And Tommy came up to me a few years ago and gave me a good telling off about the Indian River

because of course I talked about the glorious Gloucesters and I did not mention the people that were also there at the battle, the artillerymen and the Northumberland Fusiliers as well of course. So tonight is me making up, Tommy. Thank you very much. Apologising to you. I promised you next time we'd talk about you,

and here we are. Brian Hamblett, you turn 19, on the Windrush. Yeah, 19th, good morning, yeah, yeah. Going out to Korea. Yeah. There's so much politics and so much yo-yoing up and down the peninsula, but we've got you guys tonight.

I think you'll all forgive me if we cut straight to the action. Spring, 1951, 70 years ago. Tell me where you were on that bend in the Imjin River. And what was it like? Tom, let's start with you. Well, it started on the 22nd. It started with a patrol of the Gloucesters going down to the river. And we were half expecting an assault because it was time for the Chinese spring offensive. We in

Britain we have a bank holiday but the Chinese have a spring offensive. It's in their nature, or at least it was in Korea. And that night on the 22nd, a young 2nd Lieutenant Guy Temple took a patrol down to the river, and the expected happened. The Chinese started to cross. And by the morning, the patrol had expended their ammunition and withdrawn, but the Chinese had started to cross the river in force. And that was the thing. We knew what was happening. I was back with my mortar troop. we were supporting the Gloucesters with 4.2 mortars very effective for troops in the

open so how we were laying down barrages so we tell us all what a mortar is. A mortar, it's not like a gun, it fires a bomb. High trajectory, as Dan's just described. And it's literally a bomb that's thrown into the air and lands. It's very handy for firing over buildings, mountains or wherever. And we were with heavy mortars. The infantry had three- were with heavy mortars the infantry had three point inchalling because we had the firepower, they had the manpower and the odds apparently at the time was seven to one against us but eventually we reckon it was ten to 1. Brian, you were one of the infantrymen that he was busy dropping bombs on. Tell me, before

the Chinese attack, what kind of perimeter, what kind of defensive posture are you in? I was an MMG, so we were on the periphery. A machine gun? A machine gun, yeah, a Vickers machine gun. And obviously we had our fixed targets, like you know. So we were on the periphery of the battle really, and we were sat there waiting for him. Is it appropriate to use, are you in trenches? Are you dug in?

Well, we dug in because we were there for weeks before, I mean, we'd been waiting for this for ages. Because I'd been on a long range patrol before that with the Centurion, we were on 14 miles, we went on patrol looking for the enemy. We didn't see anybody, we come to this one hill and we all decanted in. That was a frightening experience, we had to fix bayonets and go up this hill. That was a frightening experience. We had to fix maintenance and go up this hill, like, you know. That was quite an experience. And, well, you grew up then, don't you? You grew up. And I think they must have been laughing at us, like, you know. We came back and then a few days later, they came at us.

So tell me about the scenery. You've got the Imjin... How wide is the Imjin River? Well, they forwarded it, so it was that wide. So you could walk across? Yeah, it wouldn't be in flood. Obviously, it would be a raging torrent, but I mean... And there's quite high mountains, aren't there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hills, big hills.

Big hills, yeah. I don't know whether they were monroes or not. I'm not sure. And are there trees? Because there's trees there now, aren't there? Well, yeah, but it was decimated before by the Japanese, apparently. We learned this all after, like, you know, that the Japanese had raped the country, really.

All the trees had gone. So you could see. Very good visibility, was it? Yeah, it was good visibility. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And what about you as a machine gunner? Yeah. When the Chinese are starting to ford, you must have thought to yourself, well, it's going to come down to me today.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, unfortunately, we were looking that way. Look, you know, we were just on the perimeter. Actually, they'd gone round us, hadn't they? So we were encircled in a way, look, you know. So the Chinese are avoiding obstacles. They're just infiltrating. They're trying to find gaps in the Allied line, aren't they? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because we had such a wide front, look, you know. The RNFs and the Ostriches were with us, and the Belgian battalion. But there was miles between each battalion, like, you know, so there was, you know, it could infiltrate really easily, like, you know. And could you see them in full, could you see them coming around the edges? Well, no, I'd never seen them, no, no. I'd seen a few, but not many, like, you know. But, I mean, it must have been horrible for the guys who were right in the thick of it. So you could hear the firing?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's frightening, really. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I imagine when you're not in the thick of it, your mind is not as occupied. It's probably just as difficult waiting and not being certain of what's about to come.

That's right, exactly, yeah. Yeah. And of course, we were always so tired because we stood to before dusk and after dusk and then before dawn and after dawn, and we were doing stags in between, like, you know, so we were all simply completely knackered, like tired. In the end you get a bit sort of peachy. You just accept it. You accept a lot, you just carry on with it. It's a strange feeling really.

We never had any tin helmets or anything. All we had was soft-calf computers. No protective headgear? No protective headgear at all, no. Because we had the remnants of World War II. We were poorly equipped, really. I mean, well, all this is in hindsight, really. But, I mean, you learn so much more after,

like, you know, at the time. Tommy, what about you? When did you start firing? When did you have to get called up by the infantry to provide artillery support? Well, the following morning, I mean, the night before on the 22nd, you see, in the artillery, what you do, you register targets

when you can see them during the day. You register a crossroads or a hill or whatever. You drop a couple of practice ones on it. That's right, yeah. You fire smoke or whatever, and you register them. So in the evening, when it gets dark, that's when the attacks come in, and you can't see them. You can hear them.

Their noise discipline at night was terrible. You could hear them chattering as they crossed. But we were called on. noise discipline at night was terrible. You could hear them chattering as they crossed. But we were called on, it's what they call defensive fire. And we fired on targets at night that we'd registered during the day. The following morning, we could see what was happening. and I was with what they call the fool the forward observation officer with the Gloucesters he should have put an L on the end and made it fool but never mind and we were observing targets and we were registering targets at 700 yards. Our minimum range is 900. Because with a mortar, you've got to be careful.

You're firing a bomb up in the air, and you've got to be careful you don't drop it on yourselves, which does happen occasionally. That's why they call us the drop shorts. Anyway, I went back to the mortar position. And one of the lads said to me, because they can't see what they're firing at, he said, are there many of them? Now, I didn't want to spread alarm and despondency.

But whilst I was with the forward positions my officer Captain Wisby had handed me his binoculars and told me where to look and I looked between two hills and I literally all I could see were ants but it wasn't ants of course it was the enemy and they were coming across in swarms and that was their tactics it was literally cannon fodder they just came in in waves and Brian will tell you you just mowed them down the first wave went down, the second wave came up, and took the weapons of the first wave and just carried on. There was no regard for loss of life, as long as they could occupy a position. And of course, with us and the Galostas with the infantry I mean I saw

British infantry at the Imgim at its best I also saw my own regiment Royal artillery British gunnery at its best and I'd never seen anything like it before although I'd been in a couple of battles earlier in February the support we were given by the Royal Artillery the 45th field regiment was amazing because we were in a tight perimeter. We were completely surrounded. And at one point, we didn't know at the time, but we heard later that eventually we'll come to that. But when we were taken prisoner, the Chinese were 15 miles behind us,

heading towards Seoul, the capital of South Korea we knew we were fighting a battle for survival but we had amazing support from my regiment although I I boast it and we also had good support from the American Air Force with these airstrikes, which we'd called for. Now with an airstrike, sorry, you were going to say something? I was saying, so when you're firing at 700 yards, are you observing, so you're able to see where those shots are falling and what effect they're having? Oh yes, definitely.

Because the thing about a mortar is, it's not very effective, the bomb, with people in trenches, unless it falls directly on the trench. But it's very good at troops in the open. Is it bursting in the air above the troops, or is it hitting the ground and then it detonates? It's hitting the ground. There was no air fusesuses except for flares. They exploded on impact and the explosion scattered small pieces of shrapnel over a range of about 200 yards or 150 to 200 yards

and killed anything within that range. In the heat of battle did you feel sympathy with the poor blighters that you were mowing down or was it? The only time I felt any sympathy really, I mean when they were attacking us you didn't feel anything, you were just kill or be killed. So you had to kill. So it was a matter of, like I say, kill or be killed so you had to kill so it was a matter of like I say kill or be killed the only time I felt any sympathy for them was when we had an airstrike now the Americans during the Korean War and

it was used in Vietnam quite extensively, they discovered napalm. And the way it was discovered was, when they sent their aircraft over from Japan or Guadalcanal or whatever, they had reserve tanks on the wings. And as soon as they entered a dogfight or were in action, they used to drop these reserve tanks and fight. It made the aircraft more manoeuvrable. And the tanks were full of gas, gasoline or petrol, aviation fuel, avgas.

And they noticed that when they dropped these tanks, some of them exploded, hitting the ground. So somebody thought the bright idea was to put a fuse on them and use them for dropping on enemy troops. Now, the 1st Brigade over there, 27th Brigade from Hong Kong, on. Unfortunately, a trigger-happy American dropped a few napalm bombs on the Argyles, or the Argyle and Sutherlands, and they had quite a few killed and wounded from friendly fire. Not very friendly. I used to call it blue on blue. Anyway, when they gave us support at the Im Jim we were in trenches or whatever the aircraft came in from behind us and dropped the napalm when they dropped it I thought uh-oh another incident of friendly fire or unfriendly fire as the case may be but fortunately

the lead aircraft knew what he was doing he dropped his napalm before he reached us it went over our heads into the Chinese and it was a terrible weapon. It was jellified petrol which flowed, if you were in a trench it flowed into the trench and you were burnt alive. And I could smell very similar to pork cooking but obviously worse, sweeter

and the pain and cries of the Chinese. And at that point I did feel sorry for them because if it had been used against us I'm afraid we'd have been out of our trenches and going, you know. Now the thing about the Chinese, Brian will tell you, we weren't certain because they came at us in waves, we weren't certain whether they were drugged or whether they coerced from behind, whether were they being driven in, and we think it was a mixture of all three and bravery because they showed no regard for loss of life or limb. I just think it was indoctrination from the communists.

Yes, because obviously they had commissars behind them driving them on. And this is why I think most of those troops, Chinese troops, This is why I think most of those troops, Chinese troops, that were in Korea were nationalists and weren't indoctrinated into communism. Brian, what about you? Did you see the human wave attacks where you were? No, I didn't actually, no. But I'd seen results of napalm before the battle. They take it to show people had been napalmed,

and it was a horrible sight. You could still see the bodies, charred bodies, and the smell was really horrible. And I don't think it'd be allowed now, health and safety, you know, but that was a wake-up call, that was, yeah. But you did see some Chinese troops. Do you defy a weapon during the battle? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

As soon as we opened up, we sort of had it back like, didn't we? We've suddenly opened up, our Vickers up, you've got blast effectors on, but they can see where you're coming from. And next minute you've got mortars and all sorts coming at you, like, you know. Not very nice. And what's it like discharging your weapon

into groups of attacking infantrymen? Do you think about this? No, you don't, no, no. Well, I always think we were just trained to obey orders. Well, that was all we do. We were trained to obey what we... And this is the question that you guys always hate. It's a question of self-defence and survival. Kill or be killed, as plain as that. This is the question that whenever I'm being annoying journalists or something,

and I ask guys that you always get angry at me, but were you scared? Were you thinking, I do not want to die on this barren stretch of a Korean hillside? The thing is, Dan, you were quite okay in action because you were busy. You didn't have time to be scared. The time you were scared is when they were preparing to attack. Now, the Chinese had very few radios, so the only contact between Chinese units

was either by runner or bugles. They had a lot of bugles, and then you heard the bugle call, that's when you were scared, because you knew an attack was coming in. Once the attack started, you were too busy to be scared, and it was after the battle or an attack was over,

you felt relief that you'd made it until the next attack. Is that true with you as well, Brian? Well, we were just sitting waiting, like, you know, for the next signal to go fire our guns or what, you know. But they didn't call upon us because the tossers had retreated gradually,

been forced back and back and back. So our fixed points in the end became useless, like, you know. So, you know, we were in limbo, really. Are you aware what's happening elsewhere on the battlefield? Colonel Khan making decisions? Are you aware of any of that stuff? The only decision I remember is every man for himself. That was it, like, you know,

we just started. Well, we'd never seen them up. We just went forward and turned left, like, you know, down this valley. And it was fine as long as the Americans were strafing the hills each side because they were frightened to death of air power. And once that stopped, they'd open on us then, like, you know. And the Americans were supposed to be coming to relieve us or find an escape passage for us. That was blue on blue there. But, I mean, in the end, quite a few of the battalion got out.

Captain Harvey's D Company and a lot of his company got out. But then, once the planes stopped, we just kept on firing on us, so we dived into one of their trenches, like in a bunker, and we thought, well, we'll wait till night, because it was very quiet then. We thought we hadn't been seen, so we waited for night. Next thing we knew, we were surrounded by a ring of Chinese all begging us to come out. So what about you?

The thing is, Dan, I told earlier about an understatement I'd made to one of our lads on the mortars. There are quite a few of them. The second understatement, which is quite famous, was made by Brigadier Brodie, the brigade commander. He was back at one of the echelons, and he was asked by a three-star American general, asked by a three-star American general what are things like on your sector Brigadier and his reply was the understatement of the year things are a bit sticky now what he should have said and I'm going to be rude now my brigade

is up shit creek without a paddle and unfortunately we were now if he'd have said something like that the Americans probably would have take action sooner but they did try to get through to us they sent what they call a regimental combat team which is the American equivalent of a battalion and they couldn't make it they couldn't get through without armoured support and the lead tank a Centurion was knocked out and the thing about Centurions they were a tank adapted at the end of World War two never been tried in action before so they sent a regiment over the 8th Azars which is a Gloucester regiment of tanks

and they sent Centurion tanks which is still on the secret list and unfortunately every tank because the Centurion, the Mark at the time was built in such a way that he could fire on the move accurately because normally a tank would have to stop and fire but this tank had a stabilising gear that could keep it stable and those tanks, the turrets and the essential gear

was primed to be exploded if it was in danger of being captured. And that's what happened with the first tank. It got knocked out, blocked the way, so armor couldn't get through we wouldn't tank country anyway was it really so it's was it three days yeah you held out yeah three days three long days and three very very long nights did they mostly attack at night? Most of the attacks. You see the Chinese, before I was captured, what happened was when we came off the hill, I didn't hear the order but it was every man for himself. Because at the end of three days we were out of ammunition, we were out of water, which is essential when you've got wounded.

Food was no barrier. But water and ammunition were. I mean, to be honest, we were that short of ammunition. Brian will tell you, we were throwing rocks at them. Now, when the rocks didn't't explode the Chinese realized we weren't throwing grenades and they knew our number was up. So... But they mostly came at night? Most of the attacks came at night. And did you sleep at all? The thing is you see the Chinese had a tactic, a night tactic, which we'd experienced previously. They used to send a patrol in

at night, and when they got within range of our lines, and we challenged them, they would reply in an English-speaking voice, don't shoot. So we naturally assumed they were one of our patrols coming back in who'd forgotten the password or something. But it didn't work for long because we soon got the wind of this. Now before we were captured the same thing happened to me.

I shot a Chinaman who was ready to shoot me. He was stood up and he was pointing down at us and on the ground beside him was a light machine gun with another Chinaman. So it was obviously that man stood up was directing the one on the ground. So I brought my rifle up and fired, and I got him. He went down, and then somebody shouted from my left, in an English-sounding voice, don't shoot.

Now, it was only at that point that I, I was only a young gunner, 19, I realized we weren't fighting our way out. It would have been impossible anyway. They were too far behind us. We had no ammunition left, so there was no chance of fighting our way out. Can I ask, had you slept at all?

No. Very little. You were two in a trench, so one slept while the other was awake and vice versa. So you took it in turns to sleep. You took it in turns to go to the loo or whatever. And nighttime was the only time you could walk about, really. In the day, it was too dangerous.

One of the things we did, when we went onto Hill 235, the hill we were last on and surrounded, is we took with us our barrels, our mortar barrels, and the sights so the Chinese couldn't use them against us. Because we had to leave in the valley where Battalion HQ was we had to leave the base plates for the mortars and the bombs and everything like that

although the adjutant, Captain Farah Hockley of the Gloucesters he did send a patrol down a mixed patrol down to where our vehicles were to recover as much ammunition and water as he could, which did us in good stead. It lasted us another day. But we were desperately short. And in the end, the Chinese didn't overrun us.

That's one thing about it. The infantry, bless them, kept them at bay. And then the order went round. Every man for himself. You leave the hill. And in the noise of battle, you don't hear things always and I didn't realize myself that everybody was going and I said to my mate in the trench where are we going he said south so we all took off and I said to my mate in

the trench I said right we'll try and catch our fool, the forward observation officer, because he knows the ground better than anybody, and we will get out. And one section from D Company, the officer took them north, which they didn't expect them. Towards the Chinese. That's right. He took them round, and 48 of them got out.

But that was the most that anybody survived. The rest were either killed or taken prisoner. Brian, had you slept at all during those three days? No, not very much, no. I'm still trying to catch up. They call me Kipper. I've heard somebody who shares a room with you says you're a bit of a snorer. Yeah, yeah.

Brian, you're snoring! So when you tried to walk out, do you think you were going to make it, or did you...? Well, we were just mesmerised. We were just surrounded by Chinese and all huddled together, like, you know, and there was... They were putting hair strikes as well in, like, you know, so we were going to get killed by our own folks, like, you know,

but, I mean, we survived that anyway. And so how long were you on the run before you got captured by the Chinese? Hours. Not very long, a few hours as well. Yeah. A few hours, yeah. We just, as we say, Tommy was saying, you're just overwhelmed by numbers, like, you know,

you, when we were hopefully waiting in this trench for an eyeful to make our own way, when the planes stopped going over, down they came, like, you know. And how were they when they captured you? Well I think they were bemused, probably. They'd never done anything like that before and we just rode it together and then in the end we started walking north. We didn't march, we ambled north, didn't we really Tom? It took us a long time. But we used to march at night. Well the strange thing was, excuse me interrupting, but they allowed us to go so far, although they were picking us off now and again just to

keep our heads down. We had four mortar barrels, and one of the things we had to do as gunners was destroy the mortar barrels before we took off the hill. So a grenade was given to four sergeants, and they were told to drop a grenade was given to four sergeants and they were told to drop a grenade down the barrels of the mortars. Three of them were doing this and the fourth one as he did it, he was hit by a sniper and that's what was happening. Fortunately

he died very quickly, he died a painless death. But on the way out, they were picking us off willy-nilly, as they wished. It was like a shooting gallery. They allowed us to go so far. And then, like I say, I shot this Chinaman, went down and we got round him and carried on. Now suddenly we were surrounded on either side by Chinaman and they were young, very young Chinaman. They were almost like teenagers. And they were out of breath. And I think what had happened, the main force was driving towards Seoul, the capital.

And these youngsters, they were literally youngsters, had been ordered, because they don't go by vehicle, they run, because they were guerrillas. They were conducting guerrilla warfare. So they ran and cut it off. So they came down on either side, very flush from running, you could see they'd been running. By this time, I tried to just, in my case, I tried to destroy my rifle. I took the bolt out, took the bits, ammunition. I only had four rounds left anyway. I'd use one on this chairman. And if you've ever tried to destroy any old soldiers amongst you,

if you've ever tried to destroy a Lee Enfield 303 very difficult a World War two weapon the only thing I managed to damage with the site but I threw it away anyway because it was useless and then the next thing they were honest they I heard a voice shout from behind, and I got a feeling it was the adjutant, Farah Oakley, shout, okay lads,

lay down your arms, if you've still got any, we are captured. And then they descended on us, lined us up, and searched us for watches, anything valuable. Now in my case I don't know what happened to Brian but in my case I had a watch which I was very

proud of I'd won it playing cards but on the ship, they took it from me. Well, they would have done. But I hid it. Now, we're in mixed company, so I won't tell you where I hid it. But I hid it and kept it. And I still had it in the prison camp. And you needed a watch for navigation if you escaped. But that's another story.

The life in the camps. Because like Brian says, immediately after we were taken, they started pushing us north, getting us away from the front line. Because the best time, I was told later, to try and escape is when you're near your own lines, because you don't have too far to go. But of course, by the time we realised this, we were many miles north.

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How were you treated on that march? Because because that was April 1951 your prisoners of war How long were you in for two years? Two and a half prison war to an effort in North Korea. Yeah How were you treated on that March North and when you got to the camp? Well, luckily, yeah, but well, we are the federal to me Tom Well, I mean completely alien food what we, Tom. Well, I mean, completely alien food to what we had. I mean, they travel very low. They had sort of pandeliers, but it was full of meal. And all they had to do was reconstitute that,

and they'd live on that, like, you know. And we got some maize and sorghum, millet. Well, the powder we used to call bug dust, didn't we? Yeah. But it was poorly, really. Yeah But it was appalling, really. It was appalling, really. The point is, Dan, the worst thing was medical attention.

We had wounded men, men with legs missing, arms missing, and medical attention was virtually nil. Mind you, it was virtually nil amongst the Chinese. They had very little. The only thing they used to have Mind you, it was virtually nil amongst the Chinese. They had very little. The only thing they used to have was a can of gel,

which is a disinfectant. And if you had a headache, which was doubtful, they would put it on your head. But medical attention was zero. Zero, yeah. So not enough food. Was there brutality? There was in many cases.

The frontline troops were pretty good. They knew what we'd been through and they were expecting the same themselves. Frontline troops are kind of geared up to a kind of, not exactly neutrality, but a comradeship. You're both in the same boat. You're both literally trying to kill each other. So there's a kind of comradeship, if you like. But the further north we got, the worse the treatment became and this happened all the way to the camp and it took us five weeks to get there because it was only 500 miles but we didn't go direct we zigzagged because the Americans had air superiority, as you know.

And the Chinese were terrified of air attacks. So we used to travel by night, hide up by day, until the further north we got, and the less air activity there was. And there were men, there were Second World War veterans, who'd been captured… By the Germans and Japanese, yeah. By the Japanese. And those men, how were they going into captivity? What were their… Did they have a different response to you two? Well, they used to give us advice, obviously. They were experienced. They'd been captured before by the Japanese,

who, in my opinion, treated them worse than the Koreans. But the Koreans were bad. The North Koreans. Because they'd been trained by the Japanese, hadn't they? Exactly, yeah. We used to call one Jungle. He was as mad as that. He'd been a prisoner

over the Japanese, and the XAS as well. He's a real fruitcake, wasn't he? Yeah, yeah. But, because we never had Red Cross or anything like that, they said we could treat you better than that, but I don't think they did really. But I mean, if we'd had Red Cross parcels, we could have made things out of the tins and things like that, couldn't we? Well, if we'd have had Red Cross parcels, we would

have been laughing because there was only a few of us compared to World War II. There was a lot of Red Cross parcels left over for World War II, but the Chinese said, no, we can look after our own prisoners,

which they couldn't. They used to blame the Americans for everything. Because all their supplies came across the Yellow River, which was a natural boundary between North Korea and China. And they used to bring stuff over the bridges, which the Americans were obviously continually bobbing. And if there was no mail, the Chinese would blame the Americans. They hated the Americans like the plague.

Well, they actually, they tried to indoctrinate us. We used to get, every day we'd be harangued by them about the American imperialists and all this crap looking about. They were using germ warfare and things like this. Of course, you get selective hearing, and you just switch off, don't you? I've hogged you for too long,

and I'm going to let everyone ask a question in a second, but I've got one last question to ask. You'll forgive me, everyone. I'm being very selfish. You both seem very well-adjusted, happy, cheerful people. You seem like it. My dad said to me,

when he knew I was going to career, my dad said two things. Keep the sense of humour, whatever happens, and keep your head down. Well, I couldn't keep my head down but I kept my sense of humor we used to take the Mickey out the Chinese something rotten I was only telling a couple of months ago the American ambassador ambassador Ambassador. Ambassador came to Gloucester.

And Dickie asked me to tell him about the story of the digging of holes. When we were in the camp, we used to walk dogs around, imaginary dogs, look up at the sky for hours on end and get crowds of Chinese looking up with us. Nothing there. Nothing there. Nothing there. Except the occasional dogfight with the MiGs from China. But one of the things we used to do is crazy. It's boredom, you see, because every day was the same, occasionally.

Although I did try to escape, but I didn't even get out the camp. But that's another story. But what we used to do, we'd dig a hole, right? Quite deep over there, 200 yards away, we'd dig another hole. The dirt from that hole, we would put in that hole, and vice versa. from that hole, we would put in that hole and vice versa. The Chinese thought we were trying to dig our way out. And they'd come and say, why do you do this? Why do you do? Keep it quiet. Keep it quiet. So they were mystified and used to walk away, So they were mystified and used to walk away shaking their heads. These crazy British, you know. And is that what's enabled you to remain happy and well-adjusted people, the comradeship and trying to find the sense of humour in these situations?

Exactly right. We made playing cards out of bits of paper. I learned to play bridge over there as well, like a bridge crib and whist and all sorts of things. And I learned to play bridge over there as well, like a bridge crib and whisk and all sorts of things. Every cloud? The thing is, Dan, on the march up, you were okay if you kept with the main body.

But if you got separated like some of the wounded did, they were treated appallingly because they fell into North Korean hands and in fact when we were in the prison camps the older men amongst us, the wise men, the old sweats, the reservists used to tell us if you managed to escape and you want to give yourselves up, which was more likely,

because it was very, very difficult to escape, being white. One time, I got yellow jaundice. And the medic who saw to me, a corporal, said, Tommy, now is the time to escape. I said, why? He said, because you got yellow jaundice he was joking of course but what he meant was it was pointless trying to pelt yourself off as a Korean it was hopeless they say the wrong color eyes wrong colored hair yeah and their parents as well you know we no chance.

Like, you know. Gents, I've got to let the audience ask some questions now. Thank you very much indeed. We've got a roving microphone and we can hear more from these gentlemen. Let's put a hand up if you, I'm sure you've got lots of hands. There you go. Well done, sir. Straight out of the... I'm Matt Lewis. And I'm Dr. Alan Orjanaga. And in Gone Medieval, we get into the greatest straight out the... murder, rebellions, and crusades. Find out who we really were by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, my question's about George Blake indirectly, because I think George Blake was recruited in one of the camps. And was he with you? Was he in the same camp as you?

How many camps were there? And it's great to hear the kind of regimental spirit turn their efforts to turn you, met with derision. But were some tempted? Some people flirted with communism and thought this would be a good idea. That was the trouble. Quite shortly after we were captured and in the camps

I mean nowadays they talk of radicalisation so I suppose in a way they tried to radicalise us they tried indoctrination they took it upon themselves

the English speaking commissars to try and indoctrinate us and convince us that communism was the best thing since sliced bread. An old cliche, I know. But we could see through it. And we used to take the mickey out of them terribly. But they used to like it because if you argued with them, they assumed you were interested. So we used to tone it down a bit. But anyway, we used to, I mean, Anthony Farah Hockley, the adjutant, he was a past master and he used to get on their nerves terribly. He tried to escape five times,

each time he was brought back. And what the Chinese used to do, and in fact they were quite within their right to shoot you if you escaped. So you were always conscious when you escaped of getting a bullet in the back, which is what happened to me. I didn't get a bullet in the back. Obviously, I'm still here. But I was always conscious of it happening.

And what happened to me is I was recaptured. I tried to escape with a man called Dave Green who was in the Gloucesters I forget which company Brian may know I can't remember no I can't I think it was become I'm not sure anyway we were recaptured and I'm afraid if you did something wrong, you were put on the naughty step the Chinese had. I think they invented it way back. And I'm afraid we were punished,

because we were charged, strangely enough, with abusing Chinese hospitality. Brian will tell you, you are to make a confession. And we used to take the mickey out of them terribly. And if you did it quick enough, even the good English-speaking commissar couldn't understand you. But occasionally, they got the gist. We would sing songs like, Mao Zedong, Mao Zedong,

Hu Flung Dong at Mao Zedong. And of course, the Chinese picked it up. Occasionally. And of course, the consequence was pretty dire and we had one man in the camp called Derek Kinney and again Brian will tell you he was a real headache to the Chinese and in fact he was there to avenge his brother who was in the Middlesex Regiment and had been killed when the war started back in 1950.

So he joined the Royal Northumberland Fusiliers to avenge his brother. Anyway, he was captured and he ended up being awarded the George Cross for his bravery whilst a prisoner. But of course, he used to stir them up. And when he stirred them up, they stayed stirred up for days, you know,

and we bore the consequences. But anyway. Were you physically beaten? Yes, consequences but anyway were you physically beaten yes yes we were physically beaten because if you escaped and you were recaptured which was the case nobody escaped only one man who didn't come back because what the Chinese used to do if he got an escapee and they shot him, they would bring his body back to the camp and say to you, they'd line us up and say, look, this is what happens if you try to escape.

You get shot. So not many people did try it, but Fal Hockley tried five times. If any man could succeed, he could. But he didn't. And you were punished very much. Let's get another couple of questions in. Gentleman there. Hi, thank you very much.

You mentioned previously that the Koreans treated you differently as prisoners, noticeably worse, because they were trained by the Japanese. Did they fight differently as well? Could you tell when you were facing maybe a Chinese battalion which just sort of runs screaming at you against a Korean battalion did they fight differently did they use different weapons different tactics did you face the North Koreans in battle no it was always Chinese Chinese Chinese always Chinese there were a few North Koreans but very few at that stage in 51 few North Koreans, but very few. At that stage, in 1951, the North Koreans had been defeated.

They were no longer relevant. The Chinese controlled North Korea completely. Brilliant. Right, next one. Here we go. Yep, gentlemen, further up there. Here we go. I was just wondering about the circumstances of your release from captivity whether how far you knew in advance it might be happening or what were the circumstances or how you felt at the time of your release

it was a prisoner exchange we all assembled eventually nearer the border where the demarcation line is now that we'd wait for us to be named We all assembled eventually near the border, where the demarcation line is now. Then we'd wait for us to be named, and then we would go, what we call Freedom Bridge. We'd pass each other,

and they'd be throwing off their stuff the Americans had given them. And Brian, did you know that you were about... I mean, the war obviously petered out, didn't it? Well, what it was, Dan, immediately after we were taken prisoner, shortly after, within June, July, peace talks started. So we thought, great, we'll be home by Christmas.

No chance. A bit like John Lewis, you know, never opened before Christmas. And eventually, in 53, we started to realise we were being better treated. The first year was the worst. Hardly any good treatment at all. The second year was bad enough. The third year, we started to be treated better we got Brian will

tell you a small goodie bag from the Red Cross toothbrushes soap things we take for granted we got after three years in prison and then one morning in August I think it was, no June, July we were assembled on what we called a square it was a mud patch the Chinese surrounded us with guards with fixed bayonets and we thought oh God we're for the chop anyway the commandant came along,

spoke Chinese for half an hour, and my mate said to me, he knew a bit of Chinese, he said, he keeps talking about the peace talks. Now whether the peace talks had broken down, or whether they were coming to an end we didn't know but anyway the interpreter got up and said those magic words we'd heard many times on the films in World War two for you the war is over and we just stood still, not uttering a sound. We didn't murmur, we didn't utter a word.

The Chinese are baffled. And afterwards they said, why didn't you rejoice? Because all of a sudden the Americans got the word. And we heard big cheers coming from the American compound. And we said, because to be honest, we didn't believe you. You've told us that many lies when you tried to indoctrinate us. We thought you were having us on. And strangely enough, because of indoctrination, the peace talks had decided that whoever wanted to could stay, either in Korea or go to China and live a normal life.

About 12 Brits agreed to this. About 150 Americans agreed to this. About 150 Americans agreed to this. But gradually, the Brits changed their minds. Only one went. And only one man, a Marine called Condren, decided he wanted to go to China. And indeed, he did.

And we believe, we're not certain, but we believe he married a Japanese girl in China and raised a family. And apparently he sneaked back into England years later and got out again quickly because obviously they were liable for prosecution for treason or whatever but Ryan will tell you

there were probably about 12 who sided with the Chinese anyway that's enough that's a wonderful place to finish but I've got one last question you both volunteered for this do you regret it? Ryan

well it's been a wonderful experience looking at it no not tonight no no I didn't mean tonight you both volunteered to go to that war do you regret it? well initially I did but when I went

back I said I would never, but when I went back, I said I would never go back, but I went back, I think it was in 86, I think it was, and I couldn't believe what they'd done, the Koreans, in that space of time. You know, when I went up to the altar and had an iPad, and I put it on the table, and I thought, I'll try emailing home, like, you know.

I was straight in, like, you know, I couldn't believe it, like, you know. I think, we've still got to get Wi-Fi home, like, you know. Well, that's Gloucestershire for you. Okay, so seeing it today, how developed it is, that made it worth it. What about you? Do you regret it? Absolutely not. No, no. We go over there and they treat us like gods, they do.

Well, I did for many years regret it for the sake of relatives, next of kin, loved ones, you name it, who had lost people in the war. The worst thing we saw really was the fate of refugees in Korea. Yeah, that was the... Terrible, especially during the winter.