Dan Snow's History Hit - Lady Jane Grey

Episode Date: October 12, 2021

On a cold February morning in 1554, Lady Jane Grey was beheaded for high treason. Named as King Edward VI as his successor, Queen Jane had reigned for just 13 tumultuous days before being imprisoned in the Tower, condemned and executed. In this edition of Not Just the Tudors, Professor Suzannah Lipscomb talks to author and historian Nicola Tallis who reveals the moving, human story of an intelligent, independent and courageous young woman, forced onto the English throne by the great power players in the Tudor court.  

Hi everyone, welcome to Dan's Science History. We're going to learn about Tudor Queens. Tudor Queens is a hot topic. Not only do we know about the extraordinary Lady Margaret Beaufort, Henry VII's mother, the matriarch of the Tudor dynasty, and hugely important in steering her son towards the throne. Then we get the brilliant Elizabeth of York, who Henry VII's beloved wife, Henry VIII's mother. We don't hear enough about those two because they're all overshadowed by Henry VIII's queens, his six wives,

and then Mary Tudor and her sister Elizabeth, who are both hugely prominent on the kings and queen lists of English history. And then many people have heard of Mary Queen of Scots, an unfortunate Tudor executed by her cousin. What about that Tudor queen who we don't hear too

much about at all? Lady Jane Grey. Proclaimed queen, rules, if you can say that, for nine days, and then was executed when her cousin Mary was swept to the throne instead of her. Lady Jane Grey is a deeply tragic figure in English history and a fascinating figure. She paid with her life for the machinations of others around her who sought to rule through her, to exercise their influence through her with her safely installed on the throne. This is an episode of my pod which features Susanna Lipcomb's brilliant Not Just the Tudors pod in which she talks all about Lady Jane Grey. Susanna is interviewing the brilliant Nicola Tallis for this episode who I've had on the podcast talking about Margaret Beaufort. So

Nicola Tallis is an expert in East Tudor Queens as they both are. So it's great to hear this conversation. It's great to share it on this podcast. If you want to listen to previous episodes of this podcast without the ads, so for example, listen to Nicola Tallis talking about Margaret Beaufort or Susanna Lipscomb talking about many things you can get a history hit dot tv history hit tv is a kind of netflix for history we've got video on there we've got audio we've got audio books got everything on there all the podcasts just get a history hit dot tv and for the price of a pint of beer every month you get access to the world's best history channel lots of people on there watching our world war ii documentary at the moment we've got another episode of ray mears it's prehistoric

documentary series coming out this week so it's all happening at historyhit.tv go and subscribe straight away well just listen to this episode first it's not just the tudors with suzanna lipscomb and nicola talis enjoy Enjoy. Nicola, welcome to Not Just the Tudors. It is lovely to talk to you in what I hope will be the first of many chats, because you've written so many wonderful books. But this chat today is about Lady Jane Grey. And you make a point in your book that I am always banging on about,

which is that to call Jane the Nine Days Queen is our first mistake. Why do you think that is? First of all, thank you very much for having me. It's a huge pleasure to be able to talk to you about Jane. And yeah, you're absolutely right. I think there are so many misconceptions about Jane. And that is the classic one that she was queen for just nine days. And as you say, it's my belief that she should be known as the 13 day queen, which not quite so catchy, admittedly. But this is because in my view, it's very clear that Jane became queen on the 6th of July, the day that Edward VI died, 1553. Most people date her reign from the 10th of July, which is when she was publicly proclaimed Queen at the Tower of London. But actually, she had been a Queen for four days

prior to this. It's just that this was all done privately and behind closed walls. I think Queen for 13 has a certain ring about it. I think we could try and get that to catch on. Certainly unlucky, isn't it? So introduce us to Queen Jane, Lady Jane Grey. Tell us maybe about her parents and what we know and also what we don't know of her before 1553. Well, Jane was an extraordinary young woman who deserves to be better known, in my opinion. She was probably born in the latter half of 1536, although we don't know exactly when she was born, which wasn't unusual in a time when dates and times of birth often went unrecorded, particularly of girls. We do know that Jane was

the eldest daughter of Henry Grey, 3rd Marquess of Dorset. Nothing particularly remarkable about him, it has to be said. And his wife, Lady Frances Brandon, who was a bit more remarkable in that she was the daughter of Henry VIII's younger sister, Mary, by her her husband Charles Brandon. So it was through her mother Frances that Jane had drops of royal blood in her veins and she was the eldest of three daughters so she had two younger sisters Catherine who was reported to be the beauty of the family and Mary who some contemporaries suggest suffered from some kind of deformity that may possibly have been kyphosis. But of these daughters, Jane was certainly the most remarkable in terms of her intellect. And she was raised primarily at Bradgate Park, which was her

parents' Leicestershire seat, so just five miles outside of the city of Leicester. Unfortunately, the house is now in ruins, but it's still well worth a visit. And the landscape there is still spectacular and much as it would have been in the Grey's time. And it was here that Jane was primarily raised with her sisters. Now, although her parents didn't have any sons, this seems to have heightened their ambitions for their daughters, and they invested heavily in their education. But it seems that it was Jane who benefited the most from this. Her father, Henry Grey, was also well known for his intellect and his academic interests.

And therefore, I suppose it's only reasonable that he would want to ensure his daughters were educated as befitted their status. And we know that Jane was taught by John Alma, who was a advocate of religious reform, as were Jane's parents, actually. So at Bradgate, the seeds of Jane's interest in religious reform were really sown. She becomes a part of this circle who have this leaning towards reform and Protestantism. And this is something that as Jane grows, she becomes increasingly immersed in and increasingly fervent about. And we know that Jane really relished her education. She took great pleasure in the pages of books.

We know that she read Plato. A contemporary, Sir Thomas Chaloner, who may have known Jane, but certainly knew members of her family, who may have known Jane, but certainly knew members of her family, later remarked that she was supposed to have been able to speak eight languages, which is exceptional. And we know that she later began learning Hebrew at her own request, which was, again, really extraordinary. So she was a young woman who was extremely precocious, extremely intelligent, and who really took advantage of the academic opportunities that were presented to her and was certainly showing great promise in terms of her intellectual abilities. I remember the story of a visitor, was it Roger Ascombe, to Bradgate Park saying that he'd come across Jane reading

Plato in Greek whilst the rest of the family was out hunting. And this is a sort of indication of her taking great pleasure in this volume as if it was a copy of something like Boccaccio. It was a great collection of stories. So she clearly was very bright. Yes, very bright. But somebody who also, I think, recognised her own abilities. I think she knew that she was intelligent. And certainly what always strikes me as being quite extraordinary is the fact that in an age in which women aren't always predominant in the sources, as we know, people were taking the time to write about Jane and her extraordinary academic ability. And I just think that this is extraordinary, given that she

wasn't one of Henry VIII's daughters, and so wasn't as present in the same manner as Mary and Elizabeth. She was a young girl living in distant Leicestershire, far away from the court. And yet people were writing about how intelligent she was. Yes, because I think we might imagine that there would be a tendency with hindsight to rewrite the story and to make her into this blue stocking or to make her exceptional in some ways because of what later happens to her. But in practice, we've got several different sources corroborating this point. So it clearly was something notable about her that made people write this down. Yeah, absolutely. And even Elizabeth's tutor, who you've already mentioned, Roger Asham,

he remarks upon the fact that Jane, in his opinion, was even more academically gifted than his own pupil, Elizabeth. And Elizabeth is, of course, famous for her scholarly abilities. So I think that this just really pinpoints just how extraordinary Jane was. Now, tell me about the relationship between Jane and Henry VIII's sixth wife. When does she leave Bradgate Park and spend time with Catherine Parr? Well, she left Bradgate shortly after the death of Henry VIII. So Henry VIII, of course, dies in January 1547. And the following month, February, Jane's wardship is bought by Thomas Seymour, who is the uncle of Edward VI, the nine-year-old king.

And Seymour had recognised Jane's value. He realised that aside from the king's daughters, Mary and Elizabeth, Jane was one of the most important youngsters in the land. And he was determined to obtain her wardship. in the land. And he was determined to obtain her wardship. And he did this by offering her parents a loan of £2,000, knowing that they were often in debt, the Dorsets were very poor with money. So he acquired Jane's wardship and Jane came to live with him at Seymour Place in London. And then later that year, Seymour contracts this clandestine marriage with Catherine Parr, of course, Henry VIII's widow. And we don't know exactly how much time Jane came to spend with Catherine. We do know that she accompanied the couple the following year when Catherine and

Seymour left London for Soodley Castle in Gloucestershire to await the outcome of Catherine's first pregnancy. So we know that Jane was with them then, or we know that she spent time with Catherine then. And I think it's highly likely that Catherine would have had an extremely positive impact on Jane in terms of certainly her education, because Catherine was also a great advocate of female education and well educated herself, but also on shaping Jane's religious beliefs. Because again, Catherine was a huge advocate of religious reform and was surrounded by people with similar views. So I don't think any of this would have been lost on Jane and would have had a huge impact on shaping her. That pregnancy of Catherine's ended with the

birth of a daughter, but it led to Catherine's death. And what happened to Jane after that point? Jane was left to assume the role of Chief Mourner at Catherine's funeral, which must have been quite difficult for her given she was about 12 years old at this time. And after that, in his own words, Seymour was so amazed with grief by the death of his wife that initially he decided to send Jane home to her parents at Bradgate Park. And so that's what happens is Jane goes home to her parents, but it isn't long before Seymour realises that he's made a mistake in allowing his precious ward to go. And we see this almost tug of war over Jane's custody because initially Jane's parents were reluctant to send their daughter back into Seymour's keeping.

But eventually, after some persuasion, after some more money has changed hands, they do send Jane back into Seymour's keeping. But it is of short duration because in March 1549, just six months after Catherine Parr's death, Seymour was executed and thus Jane was permanently deprived of her guardian. In the light of the evidence about his at best inappropriate behaviour towards the young Elizabeth, who was what perhaps three years older than Jane, what do you make of Seymour's desire to have Jane returned to him? It's very difficult because there's no suggestion that he behaved inappropriately towards Jane. And in one of Jane's extant letters to Seymour, she refers to the fact that he's always been a kind and loving father to her. I think that his desire to have Jane with him

was basically a play for power in some ways, because I think he did hope that he could organise Jane's marriage to his nephew, King Edward, which would put him in a powerful position. But I think really, after Catherine Parr's death, Seymour became increasingly erratic, and wasn't thinking clearly at all, particularly about where Jane fell into his plans. And I think at this point, she becomes a pawn in some ways in Seymour's games. You mentioned a couple of times her interest in reform and in Protestantism and the fact that we've got people like Catherine Parr and indeed her parents who are influencers in that regard. But what actual evidence do we have of Jane's own faith?

Well, it's quite interesting because in 1551, she struck up a correspondence with Heinrich Bullinger, one of the most noted Protestant theologians of the day. And we've got three of her letters that survived that were written to Bullinger, possibly the only three that were ever written. But in these letters, we do get a really clear picture of the way in which her faith was developing and also of the influence that Bullinger had on her. I think she already at this point had a very strong sense of morality. I think she already at this point had a very strong sense of morality. I think she wanted very much to be seen as a pious, sober Protestant princess in the same manner that her cousin Elizabeth was framing herself to be. And what really strikes me again with this correspondence with Bullinger is how much of an influence he had on

her because we know that when she in the same manner I suppose as many other teenage girls she began to show a great interest in clothes for example and at some point I think John Aylmer talks about the fact that she was neglecting her studies and spending too much time playing music. And he sought advice from Bullinger about this and how to handle this. And Bullinger had clearly, unfortunately, we don't have his letters to Jane any longer. But from her responses, it's clear that Bullinger had written to Jane and basically told her that she needed to knuckle down with her studies. And I find it really extraordinary that this theologian who she's never met, who's living

on the continent abroad, had such an impact on her that she listened to him. And she did then focus on her studies. She did then start to get a real grounding in her faith. And like I said, I think it's at this point she starts to really model herself as being this very pious, very sober advocate of Protestantism. So we've got quite a good sense of her character. Unusually, actually, when we're talking about women at this time, one of the things we haven't mentioned is her appearance. And part of the problem, I suppose, is that we have a question when it comes to portraits of Lady Jane Grey. Yeah. Do any of them seem convincing to you? And what do you think she looked like, really? Yeah, there are so many portraits, like you say, that have purported to be Jane.

I personally don't think that we can truly say that any of them are Jane. We know, obviously, that there were portraits of Jane painted within her lifetime. Bess of Hardwick, for example, had one that she kept by her bed throughout her life. But we don't know exactly what happened to that. And we don't even know for sure exactly what she looked like because there aren't really very many contemporary descriptions of her or certainly not any that are particularly detailed. I think it's the French ambassador at one point that says that she was quite handsome, but that doesn't give us a great deal to go on. So it's very, very difficult. And I think, how can we possibly say that any of these portraits are Jane, or could potentially be Jane when we don't really know exactly what she looked like? Hmm. So we've got through to 1549. What happens over the subsequent four years for Jane?

I suppose this is the quiet period in Jane's life because she was basically continuing with her education and her studies at this time. In 1551, her father was created Duke of Suffolk. And at this point, her family largely relocate to London. They already had a house in London, Dorset House, but they also take up residence at the Charter House in Sheen. It's there in 1552 that Jane's mother, Frances, falls ill of the sweating sickness. So ill that they think that she may potentially die, but she doesn't. So a lot of this time is spent perhaps with the occasional visit to court, but largely just continuing with her studies. And I imagine that actually it was one of the happiest times of Jane's

life. Meanwhile, Edward, who is on the throne of England, who unlike what we're often told was actually pretty robust health before this point, fell seriously ill in April 1552. Measles and smallpox recovers, perhaps it suppresses his immune system, things that we're thinking about a lot now these days. And then in the subsequent year, February, March, gets ill again. And by April, it looks like he seems to be well again. And a major event happened in Jane's life in that April, in that she gets married. Tell us how that came about. So the marriage of Jane came about through the auspices of Edward's chief advisor, the Duke of Northumberland, who proposed that she should marry his fourth son, Guildford Dudley. And at that time, the suggestion of the marriage was very much with what may come in the future in mind. And it was an attempt to secure the bonds

of allegiance for what lay ahead. But there are many suggestions in the sources that not only Jane hated the idea of this marriage, but also her mother, Frances. One chronicler reports that she was vigorously opposed to it. And I think it's very easy to understand why, because Jane did come from a family with close links to the royal family and the throne. And she had been raised with possible expectations that she may be married to King Edward and thus become his consort, but certainly that she could expect a very advantageous match. And so I think the realisation that she wasn't going to be able to marry Edward, because he was in poor health, must have come as a blow, certainly to Jane's parents. But the idea that she would be married

to the son of a Duke, I mean, not even the eldest son of a Duke, but the fourth son of a Duke. I mean, I think that must have been a really bitter pill for the Greys to swallow. And you can understand, I think, why Francis Brandon may not have been too keen on that. But the sources say that Henry Grey was convinced by Northumberland that this marriage was a good idea. And so it duly took place on the 25th of May at Durham Place, which was Northumberland's townhouse on the Strand. And it was a very grand and a very lavish occasion. So the wedding clothes had all been paid for by Edward VI, who was unfortunately too poorly to attend by this point. But he'd also sent gifts of jewels as well to the young couple. We've got a warrant which shows that there were two masks that were

performed. The French ambassadors were invited. It was a really, really lavish occasion. Only marred, I suppose, in some ways by, first of all, Jane's reluctance. She wasn't happy about this marriage at all, but recognised that it was her duty to be obedient to her parents. And also by the fact that several of the guests, including Guilford Dudley, managed to contract food poisoning as a result of apparently a poorly prepared salad by one of the chefs. So I think for more reasons than one, the observation of a contemporary that this marriage was judged to be the first act of a tragedy is very accurate. Yes, that's very interesting because that would have seemed inauspicious at the time, one imagines. So at this point, we ought to pause and consider

Jane's claim to the throne. Can you explain it to us? Of course. By the terms of Henry VIII's will, he was to be succeeded by his son Edward. If Edward were to die childless, then he should be succeeded first by Henry VIII's eldest daughter, Mary, and if she were to have no children, then by his younger daughter, Elizabeth. But crucially, both of these girls, Mary and Elizabeth, had been declared illegitimate within Henry's lifetime, and neither had been legitimated, although they'd been restored to their place in the succession. If none of Henry VIII's children were to produce children of their own, then Henry decreed that the line of his elder sister, Margaret, Queen of Scots, was to be struck out and instead the next heirs should be the children of his younger sister, Mary.

So if this was to happen, then technically the next in line should have been Francis, Jane's mother. But Henry overlooked her. And there have been lots of debates as to why this may have been. My own feeling is that Henry didn't have a particularly high opinion of Henry Grey. have been. My own feeling is that Henry didn't have a particularly high opinion of Henry Grey. But in any case, Henry had then ordered that the next in line should be the heirs of Francis, in which case Jane was the first of these. So that's where her claim to the throne comes in. It's been set up by her great uncle, Henry VIII, but nobody really expects Jane to come to prominence in that way. So at some point in that spring, perhaps when he was ill but not apparently dying,

Edward does something dramatic, which is that he writes his device for the succession. Tell us about the device. Yeah, so it's a really, really extraordinary document, all drawn up in Edward's own hand. And again, there's been a lot of debate over how much of this was done under Edward's own auspices and how much he was influenced by Northumberland. Again, my own feeling is that Edward had more of a hand in it than he has perhaps been given credit for, if that's the right terminology. But in this device, Edward cuts out both of his half-sisters, Mary and Elizabeth, basically because he had spent the entirety of his reign campaigning really to stamp Protestantism firmly into his

reign and onto his subjects. And he didn't want to give his Catholic half-sister Mary the chance to undo what he saw as all of his good work in the cause of religion. But he recognised that he couldn't exclude one half-sister without also excluding the other. So both Mary and Elizabeth are excluded on the grounds of their previous illegitimacy. And instead, to begin with, he orders that the throne should pass to the heirs male of his cousin, Lady Jane Grey. But it very soon becomes clear that actually Edward isn't going to live long enough for Jane to produce any heirs male or any heirs at all. And so with the stroke of his pen, he inserts two words so that his will reads that the throne will

pass to Lady Jane and her heirs male. And this is how Jane goes from being third to first in line to the throne. If you listen to Dan Snow's history, we're talking about Lady Jane Grey, who ruled for a paltry nine days. More after this. Land a Viking longship on island shores. Scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt, and avoid the Poisoner's Cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed

not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. and so this is about religion you think chiefly i suppose there's a question about how much this is also about legitimacy whether he thinks that mary and elizabeth are not lawfully begotten to use the languages of time and about trying to choose the suitable person as well, I suppose. Yes, exactly. My own feeling is that religion was the primary consideration for Edward because he was reported to be extremely zealous in the cause of Protestantism. And I think that he also recognised this in his cousin, Jane, which was one of the reasons why he thought that she would be a suitable candidate as his successor.

Because even though Elizabeth was Protestant, she was never really noted for her piety and for her zeal, certainly not in the same way as Edward and Jane. And of course, Edward's intention to make Jane his heir was wholeheartedly supported and encouraged by Northumberland, who now has the perfect incentive, really, to set Jane upon the throne, because by now, of course, Jane is married to his son, Guildford. But crucially, it doesn't just have the support of Northumberland. It has the support of pretty much the whole establishment at the time. And this is the thing I think that we forget about this. This isn't just the will of a dying teenager. All of the nobility and key members of the government at the time back Edward's decision. That's it, exactly. So everybody goes along with it. Some of the councillors may not necessarily have been happy with that decision

or not happy in any case that unfortunately the device there wasn't enough time to have it passed through Parliament. But they do support the King's decision. And I think that this is instrumental and key in understanding why Jane ought to be recognised as a Queen of England. She has been overlooked for so long, but actually she was recognised and accepted by Edward's council who determined to support her claim to the throne. And that's really important. We'll come back later to the question of whether you think she was legally Queen, but let's fast forward to the 6th of July, 1553, Edward died. Yes. So by the terms of the device, she had been named as his successor. And as we've said,

the great officers of state have put their signature to this as well. So how did Jane learn she was now queen? And do you think she was forced into becoming queen? now queen and do you think she was forced into becoming queen so jane was taken to scion house which was northumberland's home on the outskirts of london still there of course still the home of the dukes of northumberland to this day she was taken there on the 6th of july so the same day as edward's death and tradition says that she was taken to the Long Gallery, although we don't know. But she was taken somewhere in the house anyway. And she was informed then that the king had died and that he had named her as his heir. And all of the sources agree that she was utterly distraught at this news. She completely broke down and she was overcome by grief at the

death of her cousin but also with the enormity of what had been inflicted on her I suppose or imposed on her but eventually she does manage to calm herself down and although she didn't want to be queen she accepted what had been thrust upon her. And I think she was determined to make the best of the situation. She recognised that the king had named her as his heir. This had been done for a reason. And from this moment, she was going to continue with Edward's good work. And she was Queen of England.

So she ends up, of course, being a queen for a very short period of time but in those 13 days did she demonstrate her capacity for queenship do you think? I think so definitely. I think again another common misconception is that Jane was a puppet who was manipulated and certainly there are instances of this happening that we see very clearly. But I think even though Jane didn't want to be queen, she had accepted that this was what she believed that God had ordained her to do. And so she was determined to assert her authority. And we see this in several instances. So after Jane's arrival at the Tower of London on the 10th of July, a letter arrives that evening from her cousin Mary, who is determined not to submit meekly to Jane's queenship and is determined to

fight for what she believes to be her birthright. And the contemporary reports say that Jane's mother and her mother-in-law broke down in tears, lamenting this fact. But it's at this point that Jane really shows her authority. And she begins issuing a number of proclamations, which are sent out across the realm, ordering her subjects to rally to her banner and to support her claim to be queen. And I think also Northumberland had expected her to be very pliable. And again, there are reports which suggest that she refused to bow to Northumberland's demands that she make her husband Guildford king, and instead said that she'd concede that she'd make him a duke, but that she would only make him king if that was what was decided by Parliament.

So I think that there are instances where she really does show that she's not prepared to be bullied and that she's going to have her own voice. One of the most moving manuscripts I've ever looked at, actually, is one of her letters from the 18th of July, one of the ones at the Inner Temple, where she talks about her right to be queen. She talks about this most lawful possession of the crown with the free consent of the nobility of our realm. At the top, it says, Jane, the queen, Q-U-E-N-E. And it's just marvelously moving because that's her signature at the top there. And in sort of very simple white telecand,

knowing that this doesn't last for any period of time, it's quite a poignant document. Did you feel that with the letters and manuscripts you've looked at? Absolutely. And one of the most striking documents that I came across, actually, it was an inventory of jewels that were delivered to Jane in the tower while she was queen. Unfortunately they weren't jewels that were fit for a queen at all. They were jewels that were in very poor repair. It was almost like they'd just been

thrown together from what was left over if you like. They certainly weren't royal jewels. They were broken. It was just like a cobbled together collection of bits and pieces, really nothing particularly grand. But Jane had signed her name to confirm that she had received these jewels. So signed at the top, again, Jane the Queen. And later on an unspecified date, somebody had very deliberately scrubbed out the Queen part. So again, that was something quite tangible and quite poignant, I found when I was researching that people really didn't waste any time, I don't think, in defiling Jane's claim and in making clear their belief that she didn't deserve recognition as queen. But that was really quite moving.

It's probably worth having a pause at this point to think about the sources that we have for the events of 1553 in particular, and the extent to which they are a question of history being written by the victors. What do you make of the sources available to us? They're quite patchy. They're of varying quality. One of the sources that I find most interesting, although certainly very biased, is the reports of the imperial ambassadors at the time. And again, there's this other misconception that Jane's reign was doomed to failure from the start. And certainly she wasn't very popular with her subjects, nothing personal, but she hadn't been raised in the same manner as Mary and Elizabeth and everybody wanted Mary to be Queen. Mary was really very popular. But I think from the reports of the Imperial Ambassador, we can see just how tenuous Mary's situation and her

circumstances were at this time. It's really interesting. They're almost daily reports. And at one point, the imperial ambassadors were even urging Mary to flee from the country because they believed very much that the odds were stacked in Jane's favour. And then you see very gradually as time progresses between the 10th and the 19th of July, how the tide is turning and things are beginning very much to shift in Mary's favour. And it's quite interesting, I think, seeing that play out in the sources as support for Mary becomes greater. And it's the imperial ambassador who thinks that it is Northumberland's doing, I guess, in part, he's right. And in part, he just doesn't really want to ascribe too much agency to either a teenage king or now a teenage queen, because it feels like it's such a tremendous coup against the Catholic Mary that there has to be some grand plan underpinning it, perhaps. Absolutely. And I think also there is this longstanding

enmity between Northumberland and Mary. Mary utterly loathes Northumberland. And I think also it's quite telling that when Mary does eventually win her claim to the throne and she is declared Queen on the 19th of July. I think it's quite telling that Northumberland is one of the very few to be punished by death and that Mary is merciful to the majority of other people. So yeah, I think Northumberland, in many ways, I think he's an easy scapegoat as well. land a viking longship on island shores scramble over the dunes of ancient egypt and avoid the poisoner's cup in renaissance florence each week on echoes of history we uncover the epic stories that inspire assassin's creed we're stepping into feudal j in our special series, Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed

not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. So 10 days after being told she was queen, Jane was told that she was not. As you say, on the 19th of July, the council has acknowledged her as queen, and on the 20th, Northumberland did. So do you think Jane was really Queen? And do you think she was legally and rightfully Queen? I definitely think that she was Queen. It can be argued,

of course, and it is true to say that because Edward's device was never passed through Parliament, it was illegal. But I think the fact that Jane was recognised as Queen by Edward's council, albeit for a short time, I do think that this deems her worthy of being Queen. She certainly had a legitimate claim to be Queen. There was no taint of illegitimacy attached to her throughout the course of her life in the same way that Mary and Elizabeth did, rightly or wrongly. So I certainly think that she does deserve to be recognised as Queen. Legally, it's a bit more tenuous, but I'm going to say because of the support of Edward's council, yes. So you're one of those who thinks we should have Queen Jane I on our ruler of rulers. I definitely do. Yeah, she does start to appear now, I've noticed. Yeah,

English heritage have her on some tea towels. Great to know. Yeah. So Jane remained at the tower where she had gone to await her coronation, but was now a prisoner until several months later, on the 13th of November, 1553, she had her trial. What happened at the trial? Yeah, so the trial took place at London's Guildhall. She was tried alongside her husband and several others, including Thomas Cranmer. And the transcript of the trial still survives in the National Archives. It's in Latin, but it's a

really extraordinary document. And again, when I was studying that, you do just get this real tangible sense of Jane and how she must have felt at that time. I mean, let's not forget, she was a teenage girl standing trial for treason for her life. And the contemporary reports talk about how she'd walked the mile from the tower to Guildhall, her head down in her prayer book. So again, I think her faith was of the utmost importance to her at this point. And she pleaded guilty, as did her husband. And so that meant that the sentence was inevitable. Jane became the youngest royal woman to be condemned for treason. And this meant that she was condemned to a traitor's death, which in her case was to be burned or beheaded at the Queen's pleasure. So I think even though

in many respects, she believed that the trial was a formality because Mary had made it clear that she intended to show mercy and show clemency to Jane and her husband I still think that the enormity of this must have really struck doom into Jane's heart and must have been difficult to comprehend. Yes it's interesting that we've got the account in Latin. Presumably, the proceedings were carried out in English. Although, of course, I'm struck by the fact that had it been in Latin, she would have been fine anyway, and able to acquit herself. But given that she confessed, why didn't Mary pardon her? Because that would have been a sort of fairly normal response to a declaration of guilt in one so young. I think Mary was under huge pressure,

particularly from the imperial ambassador, to have Jane executed. And at the end of the day, they were family. Mary had always had a very, very close relationship with Jane's mother, Frances. In fact, she was Frances's godmother. So they'd always been very, very close. And Jane had grown up knowing Mary, visiting Mary. We know that she did this when she was younger. And I think that in many ways, Mary recognised that, yes, okay, Jane had accepted this role, Queen, but that really she wasn't to blame. She'd been forced into it by circumstance. to blame. She'd been forced into it by circumstance. But I think at the same time, she recognised that some form of justice needed to be seen to be done. I think that's why she went ahead with the trial. But I think ultimately, her hand was later forced by subsequent events, and she wasn't able to pardon Jane. I think that that may potentially have happened had it not been for later events. But unfortunately for Jane, matters soon spiralled out of her control. Yes. As you say, it was four months later when Jane was finally executed.

Tell us about the impetus, the catalyst for that. catalyst for that? Soon after Mary succeeded to the throne, she made it clear that she intended to wed. And although there were several candidates suggested for her hand, in reality, there was only ever one suitor that Mary was interested in. And this was her second cousin, Philip of Spain, the son of the Emperor Charles V. And the idea of a Spanish marriage in England was extremely unpopular. And this was partly because Philip was a Catholic in the same way as Mary, but also perhaps more significantly that he was a foreigner, and the English were extremely suspicious of foreigners. And it was much feared that Philip would try to embroil England in foreign wars, as eventually he did.

And unbeknown to Mary and indeed to Jane, there were those within the realm who had decided to take up arms in an attempt to oppose the Spanish marriage. And what became known as the Wyatt Rebellion, staged under the auspices of Sir Thomas Wyatt, crucially for Jane, sadly, her father, Henry Grey, was one of the key conspirators. And again, his motives for becoming involved in the rebellion have been much debated because Mary had already been merciful to Henry Grey. So he'd been very, very briefly imprisoned in the tower after Jane's deposition, but then released through Mary's good

graces. And so, you know, why on earth would he want to become embroiled in a further rebellion? Why on earth would he want to become embroiled in a further rebellion? And Jane was in no way involved with the Wyatt Rebellion. It turned out to be a dismal failure. And Jane's father, he fled to his estates in the Midlands to try and drum up support. But again, that was a dismal failure too. He was captured and returned to the tower. But his involvement really sealed Jane's fate, because by now the imperial ambassador was demanding, really, that Jane should lose her

life. And Mary didn't feel that she had any choice. She was under immense pressure. And unfortunately, the orders were given for Jane's execution. One of the most moving things about that letter I saw is that on the back it says, written in the first year of our reign, and yet we know she doesn't even live out that year. Tell us about the event of her execution. We don't know exactly when or how Jane found out that she was going to die, but again, I think that this must have come as a great shock to her because even though she had been condemned, as I said

earlier, Mary had made it very clear that she intended to spare her life and perhaps even eventually liberate her. So I think that this must have been quite difficult for her to come to terms with. But it's at this point that she recognizes that she is going to die. And I think at this point that she decides that she's going to die a martyr to the Protestant faith in which she's always been so fervent. And there is one final test left for her to endure. Because although Mary had realised that she couldn't save Jane's life, she was determined that she could at least save her soul, which, unless Jane converted to Catholicism, in Mary's eyes, Jane was doomed to burn in the fires of hell. And so on the 8th of February, 1554, Mary sends her chaplain, Dr. John Feckinham, to talk with Jane at the tower. And he's been tasked with attempting to

convert Jane to Catholicism. And again, it's really at this point that Jane shows her true strength of character, because rather than agreeing to convert or meekly submitting to feckinham's arguments she engages in this series of debates with him in which she really shows just how steadfast her faith is and feckinham even though he fails in converting jane he's really really impressed by her determined spirit and agrees actually to accompany her when she meets her fate just a couple of days later so it is on the 12th of february that about 10 o'clock in the morning jane watches as her husband gilford is led out from his prison quarters in the tower and taken for execution on nearby Tower Hill. Just minutes later, she sees the cart that brings Guildford's butchered remains back into the tower for burial within the chapel

and realises that it's her turn next. And I think it's just commendable really how she manages to retain her composure. And again, we know that she walked towards the scaffold which had been erected in front of the White Tower. So within the confines of the tower, she had her head in her prayer book. She was reading from that, deriving words of comfort. She mounted the scaffold and she made a short speech to the crowds that had assembled to watch her die. She says, good people, I am come hither to die, and by a law I am condemned to the same. She's very calm and composed up until the moment when she is blindfolded. And it's then that she realised that the block wasn't within her reach and she cries out in panic and desperation, where is it? What shall I do?

And you can't help but feel just the utmost sympathy for this young girl who, until this point, has been so dignified but just momentarily descends into panic. And we know then that her hands were guided onto the block. She knelt her head down and moments later, her head was severed with a single blow of the axe. It's a very sad tale of a life that was wasted in the end. And perhaps the tragedy of that has been what has appealed so much to historians, but also to kind of myth makers since.

I mean, one thinks of her posthumous reputation in things like the Delaroche painting of the 1830s, the execution of Lady Jane Grey, or even actually in the 1980s, Trevor Nunn's film, Lady Jane, she certainly had quite a vivid posthumous existence, if I can put it that way. Absolutely. This has all been part of the myth, really, that Jane has been caught up in. And I find it quite sad in many ways that she's remembered in this way because her real achievements lie elsewhere. And I feel that she's worthy of being remembered and recognised for her ability and her academic achievements. And unfortunately, I think it's a real shame that she is remembered as being one of history's most tragic victims and for the fact that she lost her life at a young age and yes that is a huge tragedy but I think

we shouldn't allow it to overshadow what was in effect although a short life one that accomplished a great deal and one that shows great intellectual spirit and ability really thank you nicola for really powerfully evoking the life of this temporary and ultimately lost queen of england it's been really wonderful to chat with you about her life and her fate. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a brilliant opportunity to be able to share Jane's story. And I hope that we can start remembering her in the way in which I think she deserves to be remembered. I feel the hand of history upon our shoulders.

All this tradition of ours, our school history, our songs, this part of the history of our country, all were gone and finished. Thanks for listening everyone, that was an episode of Not Just the Tudors on my feed. Professor Susanna Lipscomb is a complete legend, she's one of my greatest friends and colleagues in the world of history. If you enjoyed it, please head over to Not Just the Tudors wherever you get your podcasts and subscribe and then rate and review and all that kind of thing share it with friends it just makes a really big difference to us and we're really really grateful for you guys doing that thank you very much you