Dan Snow's History Hit - Life and Death in Medieval England

Episode Date: April 15, 2021

We often hear about the kings and queens of medieval England, but what was life like for the ordinary person? From knights to peasants to barbers, Dan Snow joins Dr Eleanor Janega to explore the many lives - and deaths - you could expect to find in Medieval England. This episode is taken from a youtube live event from our partner channel Timeline.If you want to watch Eleanor's brilliant programme Going Medieval: Those Who Work for History Hit then click here.

Hi everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. Recently, over at History Hit TV, the world's best history channel, Dr. Eleanor Janneger is smashing all of our records with her new series on medieval lives. Everybody loves Eleanor Janneger. The new series looks at what life was like for actual people in the medieval period, and she does it with her own particular style that has made her the platform's favourite documentary maker of the moment. I am absolutely thrilled about that, and I'm particularly thrilled, therefore, on this podcast to say that we are going to play an interview that I did with Eleanor last year on YouTube. It was part of our series of History Hit Lives on Timeline, our partner channel on YouTube, and we talked about some of this same material.

We talked about the reality of life at medieval Britain, but across Europe as well. And naturally, she slayed, slayed some of the myths that we all have about the medieval world. If you want to listen to this, go and check out Eleanor on History Hit TV. You can do so. Just sign up to historyhit.tv. You can check that out. I spent the weekend herring across England on the footsteps of the Great Heathen Army with another medieval specialist, Dr Kat Jarman. She's an early medieval Viking specialist, and she took me from East Anglia all the way into the heart of Wessex on the footsteps of that Great Heathen Army, which in the 9th century toppled one kingdom after another, marched into the heart of Wessex, which in the 9th century toppled one kingdom after another,

marched into the heart of Wessex, where it was defeated by Alfred at a battlefield that we're not sure exactly where it is, frustratingly. But, you know, watch this space. We've got a few projects in the works at History Hit. We might be making some discoveries in that department. Thank you again to everyone who subscribes to History Hit TV, Ellen E. Aniger's series, My Journey with Kat. None of that would take place

if it wasn't for you subscribing. Thank you. I know I say that a lot and I mean it. It is just so, so awesome and I can't really believe it's all happening. So go ahead and subscribe

to historyhit.tv but in the meantime, enjoy this conversation with the very brilliant Dr. Eleanor Ianniga. Eleanor, thank you for coming back on. Thanks for having me back. It's always a pleasure. Well, it's a huge pleasure talking to you.

The most awesome medieval historian in the world. Can I ask you a question? I saw on Twitter the other day, you got very upset and I just want to, I want to trigger you. Tell me how it makes you feel when people use the word medieval as a pejorative term. Oh, that's such a medieval thing. Oh God.

Okay, so this is a literal red flag to a bull stuff for me. It's to the point where people, you know, fans of my work and my friends will go find articles where people misuse the term medieval or dark ages and send it to me just to wind me up because it's extraordinarily effective. And so for me, it's one of these frustrating

things because in the first place, misusing the term medieval is historically inaccurate, right? So when people say that something is medieval, what they mean is, oh, it's bad. And usually when they're doing that, they're describing something that is not medieval. Like, you know, it'll be one of these things where I've seen, for example, people say that the reaction to COVID in America is very medieval because they say that it's, they think that medieval responses to plague are really kind of just based on ideas about God, or they are looking to magic to cure things. And it's like, none of that's true. You know, medieval responses to plague, they're like, oh, this is a contagious disease. This is really terrible. We should try this with like,

like stop the spread of disease. And, you know, and there are some kind of like religious ways of looking at it where people will say, oh, and Christians, for example, will say, oh, this is a punishment from God for our sinfulness. So there is that, but they're really clear on the fact that this is a disease and it's something that's happening that way. Muslims, on the other hand, also think that it's a contagious disease and they'll say, oh, this is a plague sent by God that has to kind of like be endured and suffered as a form of martyrdom that we have to get through. So it's like both of those are like, no, this is a disease. This is bad. Like, oh man, I guess a form of martyrdom that we have to get through. So it's like both of those are like, no, this is a disease. This is bad. Like, oh man, I guess a bunch of people are going to die. Whereas like,

you know, the kind of debate in America about the pandemic is like, will Jesus save you whether or not you wear a mask? And it's, you know, like two completely different things. And combined with this is like a frustration about the misuse of the term dark ages more specifically, because people will say, oh, oh, the dark ages more specifically because people will say oh oh the dark ages and what they mean by that is they mean the medieval period and dark ages does not mean the medieval period it means specifically the early medieval period and when they say the dark ages they'll say oh um you know because that was a time when people rejected the scientific knowledge of rome and like that's just completelyrue. The term dark ages actually refers to a lack of sources. So it's just a time we don't have a lot

of things that came through to us. You know, like one of the big things that historians always struggle against just having something to read and then interpret. And we don't have a lot of stuff from the dark ages and that's what we mean by it. But people have interpreted that to mean like bad or pejorative or stupid. And like, that's just not the case. You would struggle to find a bigger group of fanboys about, you know, the Roman empire, the Roman knowledge than medieval people who saw themselves as like the new iteration of Rome. They saw themselves as really tied to the legacy of Rome.

And, you know, there's no way on God's green earth that like given some sort of like Roman knowledge, they would reject that. So, you know, it's one of those things where I'm like, it's not a great thing to do it. And, you know, also one of the reasons why I think it's not a great thing to do it beyond, you know, pedantry, which I love, is that it's not a great thing to do because it sort of lets us off the hook for our own mistakes. When we talk about something that is bad and we call it medieval, and it's something that we're doing, it kind of like puts it at arm's length. You know, a lot of the things that we're experiencing right now that are negative are like the result of our own kind of society and the way that we relate to things.

Medieval people would never react the same way. So we need to own those things or we can't fix them. If you're constantly blaming someone in the past for how something is, then it kind of lets you off the hook and makes you not culpable so i reject i reject medieval as a pejorative and i'm regularly wound up by it so you know if we want to actually get better we need to actually figure out what the middle ages deal is and we need to kind of like move forward so that's okay everybody needs to check out check out on twitter because she'll give you that rent about three times a day which is great and it's super fresh super fresh each time checking at lunch i'm probably you know doing it it's fine now let's let's let's say we're going to talk about how

you get ahead how you get ahead in the medieval world and you know i've been discussing so you want to talk first about buildings and churches well When a lot of us think of medieval, we do think about, it's funny because, you know, we think of, as you say, it's like a, it's a, it's a, it's a pejorative term, medieval, and it's a primitive term. And yet we also go, and yet it gave us some of the most extraordinary buildings on planet Earth. And so let's talk about those buildings now. Why do people build them? And so let's talk about those buildings now. Why do people build them? Well, I mean, one of the great things about when we're talking about influence in architecture from the medieval period is that the buildings that exist, are you that still exist, are usually the ones that were built specifically to make you feel a certain way.

Right. So the ones that we still have left over are like castles and churches and cathedrals. And they're all built with this very explicit kind of power dynamic in mind. So wonderful castles like we see here. This is the Escorial in Spain. And this is a really- Astonishing, isn't it? It's absolutely astonishing. And it's serving a number of different functions. So in the first place, we will look at that now and we'll be like, I am very impressed by this building. And if you think about a world where buildings are much smaller, where skyscrapers don't exist, we will look at that now and we'll be like, I am very impressed by this building, you know? And if you think about a world where buildings are much smaller, where skyscrapers don't exist, you know, your average building is like maybe three stories tall max, you know, you see something like that and you're massively taken aback. So it's a very specific statement about like the

power of the royal family in Spain and what they do there, other than just having like this great big building, which it's really easy to read that and interpret that. One of the royal family in Spain. And what they do there, other than just having like this great big building, which it's really easy to read that and interpret that. One of the things that they have there is basically, it's called a pantheon, where they bury all of their dead kings. So that you can kind of be aware of like how the dynasty works,

contemplate the concept of the king's two bodies. I'm not sure if you're aware of this theory. This is like this idea that kings and queens, they have sort of two bodies. I'm not sure if you're aware of this theory. This is like this idea that kings and queens, they have sort of two bodies. There's their actual physical body that dies and people get buried in Pantheon. But there's also like the concept of the body of the king. This is why we say stuff like the king is dead, long live the king. Because while their body might die, the concept continues to live on. And so that's what happens when you kind of put a bunch of bodies in a row and you say, think about this. Also in the Escorial, they've got

lots and lots of relics of all of like the famous Spanish saints and that sort of a thing. So they're making an explicit connection about keeping holy relics in a place, keeping royal bodies in a place and saying, okay, saintly figures and royal figures, they're on sort of the same level. They've all got a sort of power and it's something that you should be looking up to. So when we see huge medieval buildings like that, it's never neutral. It's never like, oh, well, I just thought I would build a nice castle and it would be pretty. You know, it's if people just wanted a big house, they could build a big house, but you build something beautiful and massive like that in order to prove something.

And like a case in point here is this wonderful French palace in Villeneuve-les-Avignons. And it is across the river from Avignon itself in what is now southern France. It was built in the 14th century. And that's when the papacy was in Avignon. So the papacy had left Rome because Rome was extraordinarily violent in the late 14th century. There were a number of rebellions, and the popes were like, look, we've got to get out of here because there's too many wars going on. So they move over to Avignon, and they build this extraordinarily huge papal palace.

It's absolutely beautiful. And it's doing the same thing as, you know, the Escorial. It's like, oh, you should be very impressed by the papacy. Look at their huge castle. But they're right across the river from the territory of the French king. And the French king is like, look, you're not the only person who is important and you're not the only kid on the block here. So what he does is build his own huge, massive castle directly across the river. And it's sort of like a castle standoff. So what it's showing everyone is that there isn't just like one form of power. There's like royal power and then there's papal power across the river.

And the castles are kind of in a standoff of saying these are two important types of power i'm important i'm important don't forget about me so it makes a really clear statement about who owns what territory how power is distributed and it just kind of reminds all regular people about who's in control you know these buildings just it's so extraordinary but what about what's going on inside them, the religious experience of the relics? Because the relics are, I know, I guess it's where we talk about, we talk about pilgrimage here. Yeah. So, I mean, relics are one of these things where they're really interesting in the medieval context because they were so incredibly important. So relics are basically, the long and short of it is that they're items that can be connected to holy people.

So in the cases of saints, it's usually body parts. And there's something like 12 of them extant around Europe where people will be like wanting to pray to something that was a part of Jesus's body. Or you will have the relics of his passion. So the crown of thorns is a really big deal. The spear that supposedly pierced his side. You'll go look for things like that, anything that touched Jesus. And people are so into the idea of relics. It's like they're thought to have healing properties. They are thought to give you a connection to God. And so you'll go on pilgrimage to go see these things. So you will go to Tewksbury and see what relics

they have there. And if people have relics, they do a big job of like trying to make sure that everybody knows that they have them. So, you know, they will oftentimes write books saying, oh, we've got, we've got these relics here and kind of try to circulate those. They will, for example, try to popularize sermons about the saints that they have. And so that people can say, oh, I've heard of this this saint i'd like to go see that and so somewhere like tewksbury has got a really you know great collection of relics and people will come from all over to just kind of like touch them commune to them uh pray with people in them and it gives you a kind of repository that's fitting for something that is so extremely precious and so

extremely holy can we talk a little bit more about castles? When you read a book about castles, you end up, for me, I end up knowing less about castles at the end of reading a book about castles than I did at the beginning, right? Are they defensive? Are they palatial? Are they domestic? Why do people build castles? I mean, the answer to your question is yes. So they're doing a lot of things and they do a lot of heavy lifting, which is why they're so confusing and complex, because they are defensive. But also, you know, within that, you have to understand that a lot of things in the medieval period are generally defensive, like cities are defensive. All cities are behind a wall. You will have examples of even cathedrals that are defensive. Like here in England, the Lincoln Cathedral has a defensible facade where you can

actually attack people from inside of it, which is amazing. So there are a lot of things are defended. So of course, though, kings are going to want to protect themselves, right? So you put yourself behind a wall. And in fact, that's what castle sort of means. A castle has to be defensible. Otherwise, even if it's a seat of royal power, it's just a palace. So, you know, castles are palatial and castles definitely are something often that is really rich and luxurious, but not always. Like sometimes you'll see castles, especially if they're super old, like from the early medieval period, especially here, you'll see Mott and Bailey castles

and where they are, you know, on a mott, which is basically a big hill that is dug up and built. And then they put just a little round guy at the top, which is a defensive wall. And then you'll sort of inside that have a number of buildings where everyone lives. And they're not particularly fancy. You know, no one is like, oh, I really hope someday to live in one of the buildings inside that wall. You know, that doesn't have the same sort of cachet as something like, for example, the Castle de l'Avignon has.

Here in England, if you have the opportunity, a really great opportunity to see a cool medieval castle is down in Dover. And the castle there, they've done a really good job of reconstructing it so it actually looked like it would have in medieval times. Because a lot of the time now when we see castles, you know, it's just a bunch of gray stone. It's kind of fallen apart. You really have to use your imagination to understand what it would have looked like. And you mostly just see defensive walls. What they've done there is they've re've replastered the inside. So all medieval castles would have been all plastered inside and they're usually very brightly painted. So we've got a lot of great records for this, you know, where they're yellow or red or all these beautiful things inside. And which is again, showing you how powerful and rich kings are. They're like,

oh, well, I've got luxurious tapestries and I have bright red walls and I have carpets on the floor and all of these sort of things. And we lose that because plaster falls off walls over time, right? So when we look at castles, we go, oh, it's very dark and it's very dank.

That's not what they were like. So it's important to kind of like, you've got to do your own sort of like a grand designs imagining of castles when you see them you know they were painted they were bright they were you know lit up they were full candles they're not just a dark tank thing like we see now you're listening to dan snow's history this is a conversation i had on youtube last year with Dr. Eleanor Janneger. More coming up after this. Land a Viking longship on island shores.

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a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. Well, this is, by the way, excellent tv series made featuring dover castle by d snow check it out called battled castle i hate it it's called battle castle anyway and uh bodium castle there's a kind of case in point right because it looks like the perfect castle but it was it was military it sucks right there's windows i mean it was a kind of posh stately home built to look like a castle it was you wouldn't sucks, right? There's windows. I mean, it was a kind of posh stately home built to look like a castle. You wouldn't want to try and defend this in battle,

would you? No. It is one of my favorites, so I absolutely love Bodleian Castle just because it's so pretty. That's the sort of place that I take visitors when they come on holiday. Like, oh, you've got to see this one.

But yeah, it's a nonsense. There's no way to defend that, you know? It's a nonsense. Put that on the tourist brochure um let's can i talk about something we don't um think of again this idea you you point out the medieval world would have been colorful the buildings would have been far more colorful dynamic let's also talk about like plays and and and charivaries and feast days it would have been some fun. Oh yeah. And these are, this is one of the things that's actually cool when we think about big monumental buildings, because they're often the site of a lot of fun. So, you know, cathedrals, for example, which, you know, they're very solemn places, but they're also home on feast days to things like mystery plays. And mystery

plays are plays, you know, as it says right there in the title, they'll be on biblical themes and they're usually something that you'll do for like big feast days, like Michaelmas or Christmas or Easter. And they are such a huge deal. Everyone absolutely loves them. And initially they start out being performed in cathedrals and priests will sort of act out the roles. And then it turns out that priests are having way too much fun. Everyone's having too much fun having the big mystery play

in the cathedral. And the church sort of steps in in the 12th century. And they're like, look, are you a priest or are you an actor? You need to like dial down the fun. Everyone's having way too much fun in here. And they're like, oh, all right. So then the mystery plays get taken out in front of the cathedral out into the main square. And you'll have like town guilds will be the people who put it on or even there'll be like roving troops of actors. And people absolutely love these. You know, like there'll be a whole cycle that gets done all year where they kind of like start out with one and they kind of move through the entire Bible over the year. And everyone loves going to these. There's like big dances.

You know, they will do kind of like fire shows there's acrobats there'll be like um big competitions about like how you'll make the sets and people really get excited for example about like hellmouths so hellmouth is something that you'll see a lot of time in paintings where there'll be like a big demon and it's his mouth and that's how you can tell people are going into hell. And there'll be a lot of excitement about like, Ooh, they've got this exciting hell mouth. They've got all these like great sets and people get really jazzed for

that. You know, it's kind of like the medieval equivalent of going to a horror movie. Like that's, you know, like something that people, people still kind of like, like that.

They like the, the, you know, being a little bit scared and they like to like, they party a lot. I mean, every day is a feast day. It's like absolutely incredible. You go, I'm like, oh, well, this will happen on big feast days. I just say big feast days because there's so many feast days. It's like, you know, basically you've got like three or four saints days a month that you could choose

to celebrate depending, you know, there are bigger ones like Michael, Mrs. The huge one, which is, uh, Michael, the archangels feast day. That's like a really big deal, but they're constantly having parties and being like, Oh, well, I guess it's time again. You know, um, Christmas is 12 days long in the medieval period. It's not one day. They're like, we need to, we need to string this out. You know, you got from Christmas through till 12th night and that's just one party. So, you know, medieval people are using these buildings to

have a good time so the next time that i'm involved in a particularly uh hedonistic bacchanal like i'm really i'm in a beef there i'm having a great time watching the sun go down i'm gonna be like oh it's so medieval around here i mean honestly and i will think of you yes yes so it's like the minute you're having a really good time like drinking some really great beer with a bunch of people in the sunshine that is indeed medieval that's just we're behaving like people from medieval times um okay so okay so this is how we're talking about how we uh get ahead in the medieval world the ability to castles of course we should say the medieval period we're talking about here really you've already brought in the near they're near east this is a pan-european kind of obviously a period but a kind

of cultural religious architectural movement as well and actually we should probably talk about that a little bit now let's talk about kind of um travel visits the church the aristocracy and royals would have been pretty mobile they would have been been travelers, right? Yeah. A lot of the time in the first place, travel is kind of like a stated goal in the medieval period. That's something that it proves that you're kind of fancy, that you're worldly. Everyone in the medieval period wants to go on pilgrimage at least one point in their life. The big point of pilgrimage, as high as you can possibly get, is to make it to Jerusalem. And that's what everybody wants to do. Everyone is absolutely sold on that. And there is a lot of exchange, especially from the Near East back and forth. Sometimes there's exchange as far as the Far East. You know, you have people like Marco

Polo makes it all the way to China. And we do know that there will be Far Eastern goods. We know, for example, a lot of spices that come from indonesia and uh in medieval europe so there is a lot of trade back and forth and you know i'm guilty myself because i'm a europeanist right i work on europe and we can sometimes when we use say medieval we think oh we're just mean europe but medieval people don't think like that medieval europeans the way they see their world um is that the center of it is Jerusalem and they're off at the edges. And so like everything is actually kind of centered on the Mediterranean, which is what the Mediterranean means, right? It means like between countries. So that's sort of like the

center of the world and that's where everybody wants to go. And one of the things that you'll do is you'll have these big parades and it's a way of showing power. So one of my favorite monarchs, so like let's transition into talking about Czech people, which you know like I lasted this long so that's pretty good. That was, I mean that was like 25 minutes. That's a record. I know, like the restraint you know. But one of my favorite emperors, Charles IV, he was originally the king of Bohemia. He's of Czech extraction, but he becomes the Holy Roman Emperor. And here he is being very, very holy in front of his relics. And one of his big things is he travels an absolute ton, because in the 14th century, like the sort of centralized power of the Holy Roman Empire is sort of crumbling a little bit. There isn't as much of an idea of

the emperor controlling particular territory. So one of the things that Charles does is he's super itinerant and he just starts like showing up places. Like he's in Milan saying, hi guys, remember how I own this? You know, he's in Lombardy. He goes up to the North Coast

and he's like in Pomerania. Like he goes everywhere and is like, hey, what's up? Charles IV, nice to see you. And he just is, and when he's doing that, it's not just like, oh, he's having a nice holiday. He's making a specific statement about the fact that he's the emperor and he controls these lands. You never know, the emperor might just show up and check your homework. So what he's saying is that this is still something that I control.

And while he's doing that, one of the things that he does is, you know, you stay with other rich people when you're rich people. And so he's showing up at the castles of other nobles or sometimes at the castles of other kings. He's related to the French court, for example. And they'll say, oh, Charles, it's so nice to have you here. And he's like, yeah, it's great to be here. And he'll be like, I heard you have some really nice relics. And they'll be like, yes, Charles, we have some nice relics. Would you like to see them? And he'll say, oh, I would love to see your relics. And they'll be like, yes, Charles, we have some nice relics. Would you like to see them? And he'll say, oh, I would love to see your relics. And they'll be like, oh, Charles,

can I offer you this relic? Is that something that you would like? And he'll say, oh, for me, I am not sure that I am worthy to receive this relic. Let's pray. Oh, yes, thank you. I'm taking that back to Prague. And in this way, he built up a collection of absolutely hundreds of relics, and he takes them all to Prague. And he's doing it because what he's trying to say is like, oh, Prague's this really fancy place. Prague's this super holy place. You want to see relics?

You want to go on pilgrimage somewhere? Why not come to Prague, where I live, where my fancy castle is, and where my new cathedral is, and see my fantastic collection of relics. So when he travels, he's not just showing his power and saying, okay, well, this is how you know that I'm an important emperor. He's also collecting things that then make him more powerful. So it's just like an ultimate boss move. And everything the man did was just incredibly calculated. He was very, very smart. And, you know, maybe kind of a jerk about it.

But, you know, I like to see the collection. So I'm like Team Charles. So we've got men like Charles collecting relics. Who was it? If I misremember, was it Henry of Navarre, Henry IV of France? Somebody said, you rule with your arse in your saddle and your sword in your hand. Yes, you got it in one. Oh, is that Henry? Yeah, I believe it is. Yeah. And so, you know, it's about the exercise of military power,

because that's one of the things that sort of differentiates kings from popes, right? So there is still, which, you know, would seem obvious to us, but the thing is kings are kind of ruling by divine right, right? The idea that the reason that they are king is that God put them there. So there is a holy connection between royalty. It's not just, you know, something for the church. It's, you know, like here in England, technically the queen's the head of the church, right? We don't think about it a lot, but it's true. So there's this thing about the fact that kings are holy, but what differentiates them from church leaders is that they do wars, right? So like popes can't do wars because the minute that you enter the clergy, you have to take an oath that says you won't shed blood.

There are some great instances where, for example, there's a Bishop Odo during the Norman conquest of England who gets around this by using a mace in battle instead of a sword. And he's like, well, I'm not drawing blood. I'm just, you know, kind of bludgeoning people to death. You know, all the blood's internal, so it's fine. But there are also, there are kind of a back and forth with this, right? So it's like for a king in order to prove their power, one of their power is often violent and military. And funnily enough, that's actually how you get the office of Holy Roman Emperor is that there's a lot of back and forth about this.

But the idea is sort of that if the Pope is God's representative for the church, the Emperor is God's representative for the empire. And what they're kind of acting as is like the military wing of the church. So as if you asked a Pope, they'd say, oh yeah, emperors exist because I can't fight a war. If something goes wrong, I need someone to like go into battle. I need someone to raise an army. And that's what emperors are supposed to be doing. So for example, when Popes want to raise a crusade, one of the groups of people that they will lean on really heavily are emperors.

They'll be like, you, you get out of there. Get out of your castle. I see you're hanging out in Sicily having a nice time. On your horse. Let's go. You know, and then they'll just kind of like try to mobilize that. But it is also a concert back and forth where kings are always trying to attack each other and take each other's lands. I mean, I don't know if you heard about the rivalry between England and France and a little war that went for about

100 years or so. But there is a lot of establishing, you know, who owns this land? How do you rule it? And a lot of the time, it's just military. And that's just the long and short of it. Okay, Anna, so I want to talk about this idea that the medieval world was particularly violent, brutal, and sort of full of torture, even though we've managed to just come through the 20th century, which was an exhibition in unimaginable violence. Is it true? I mean, the Georgians had public torture and execution the whole time, right? So again, why this connection with the medieval world for so many people? Yeah, it's a really interesting one because on the one hand, yeah, like public torture and execution is certainly something that happened in the medieval

period. And I'm not here to say that it isn't. But on the other hand, it's something that modern people did a lot as well. And in fact, a lot of the time when we talk about historical torture, this line will become really blurred and people will say, oh, look, look at all these medieval torture devices. And, you know, I'm like, well, actually, that's from the 17th century. You know, this is actually a very modern torture device. It's not something that medieval people did. And the thing of it is, is that it's kind of also part of how we remember history. Right. Because we've got examples like William Wallace, where that was a terrible public execution and torture. But the thing is, he was a super high profile dude,

you know, and he engaged in, you know, a longstanding war against the crown. And one of the fastest ways to get in trouble is to threaten the crown, you know? So he's being made a specific example of, you're supposed to be like, oh my, this is the most terrible thing I've ever seen. I can't believe this. And it's a story, right? And that's a story that will get spread and it's something that will get written down. So every time there's a public execution, we usually have records of that. Like we'll have a record of it's like, oh, that one is particularly gruesome, you know? But there's also a lot of different kinds of punishment in the medieval period. And actually a lot of the time, they'll be a lot more chill than they are in the modern period. Like there's a big, for example,

a focus on medieval punishments that will be about bringing people back into the community. So it'll be a lot less about like punishing them physically or something, but they'll say, look, you've got to pay a fine. They got to go apologize to the person that you wronged over there. Like sometimes if there are high profile, you know, men fighting each other, the sentence for their crime, even if they've killed people, they'll be like, you two have to go on pilgrimage together and you need to make friends and you need to stop this because this is tearing the community apart. You need to find a way to make a bond. And we ignore that because it doesn't feed into what we're interested in. You know, in the first place, we kind of like

the macabre gruesome thing. And we're like, oh, that's really gross. Tell me in, you know, in the first place, we kind of like the macabre, gruesome thing. And we're like, oh, that's really gross. Tell me more. You know, I'm guilty of that. You know, I'm always interested in those things. But also, again, it's a way of just saying, well, the medieval period was bad. We in the modern period are not bad. And it's simply not true. You see just as much torture and killing and punishment in the modern period, if not more so in a lot of ways. And actually, torture really ramps up in the early modern period. It was not quite as always a thing that happens in the medieval period. But we're looking, we're picking and choosing, because we're picking and choosing who it is worth writing about and what's worth

writing about. And we write about exceptions. We don't write about what everyday punishment is. You know, no one is interested in reading, oh yeah, and then you were fined six gold florins for stealing a sheep. You know, what they want to see is like, oh, you got killed for stealing a sheep. You know, that's the one that we remember. So there, it's a lot of sources and it is kind of something that we've made up to tell ourselves that we're better than medieval people because we love doing that. So. thank you very much we're extremely grateful thank you so much it's always such a pleasure to be here um and i love to come and talk about my favorite things hi everyone thanks for reaching the end of this podcast. Most of you are probably asleep, so I'm talking to your snoring forms,

but anyone who's awake, it would be great if you could do me a quick favour, head over to wherever you get your podcasts and rate it five stars, and then leave a nice glowing review. It makes a huge difference, for some reason, to how these podcasts do. Madness, I know, but them's the rules. Then we go further up the charts, more people listen to us and everything will be awesome. So thank you so much. Now sleep well.