Dan Snow's History Hit - Liverpool's Historic Docks

Episode Date: July 30, 2021

Just 17 years after Liverpool’s historic waterfront was listed as a UNESCO World Heritage site, the city was stripped of its prestigious status.The UN's heritage body said it made the decision because of “irreversible” damage to the city’s cultural value after years of development, including a planned £500m stadium for Everton football club. Historian and Liverpool local, Mike Royden, joins Dan on the podcast to talk us through the history of the city and its iconic waterfront, with its collection of quays, warehouses and grand shipping institutions built in the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries. They discuss how Liverpool grew to be one of the England’s busiest and richest ports, the affects of the Blitz, and what the future may look like for the area.

Some things just take too long. A meeting that could have been an email, someone explaining crypto, or switching mobile providers. Except with Fizz. Switching to Fizz is quick and easy. Mobile plans start at $17 a month. Certain conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca. Hi everyone, welcome to Down to Notes History. Liverpool is in trouble because it's lost its UNESCO World Heritage Site status for its wonderful historic seafront, that fantastic stretch of iconic buildings on the east side of the Mersey.

Liverpool, once one of the greatest ports in the world, now just one of the greatest cities ever, is endlessly fascinating. It's a place with a particular character, a particular history, and it's worth talking about. We've talked about Liverpool on the podcast before several times, we've been to Western Approaches, we've done other stories there. We've looked at underground catacombs beneath Liverpool itself but this time we're going to talk about the history of the docks and why this current fight is going on, what it means and what as fans of history, of archaeology, of the built heritage environment we should all feel about it and I've got the best person ever to talk about it. I've got Mike Royden. He's been writing history about Liverpool, Merseyside for years and

years, particularly Merseyside at War was probably his best known book, 1939 to 45. It's great to have him on the pod to talk about these tricky issues. And of course, that wonderful city and its fantastic waterfront. Before we talk about all things Liverpool, we are running a special offer at the moment. It's the anniversary of the defeat of the Spanish Armada in the English Channel in 1588. A huge moment in English maritime history, a kind of founding myth, a foundational myth of Britain's maritime empire in so many ways. So you can head over to historyhit.tv. We've got lots of podcasts coming over the next few days about the Armada. We've got content on the channel. We've got documentaries all about Britain's naval history.

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But in the meantime, here's Mike Royden. Mike, thank you very much for coming on the podcast pleasure now you are joining me you're afloat at the moment on one of the great network of canals that crisscross the northwest where exactly are you that's right I'm a place called Wixhall which is a marina but it's on the Langothan canal not far from Whitchurch and that's not a million miles away from Merseyside. I guess canals and rivers are a big part of the story of Liverpool. Let's start with Liverpool. What was Liverpool before it was Liverpool? How do you mean? Before it became industrialised. I mean, it was just a medieval backwater, really. No great significance at all. In fact, Chester was a more important port for the North West. And it was only really after the River Dece started to silt up

in the 1700s and Liverpool obviously became involved in the slave trade. It was only really after the River Dece started to silt up in the 1700s and Liverpool obviously became involved in the slave trade. It was only after that the attention switched. So Liverpool, to explain to people who might know the geography, the Romans had a big settlement at Chester. It was important for the English, Anglo-Saxon period. Chester was where the action was at in the North West. But Liverpool, I guess there was

no danger of the Mersey silting up? Not at all, no. And a lot of that history bypassed Liverpool, really. And it's not that we can do a great deal of excavation to reveal any of that, because it's all been urbanised. The Mersey was quite a forceful river, very high tidal range. In fact, quite the reverse. I mean, Liverpool was ideal, of course. And so when do we start to see activity in what is now Liverpool on the east bank of the mighty Mersey? I would say towards the end of the 1600s. And that was the salt trade, in my opinion, that kicked it off. And an infrastructure was beginning to be set up around that time.

You've got the salt which was being extracted from the Cheshire area. And consequently, rivers were being improved, Cheshire area and consequently rivers were being improved including the D river navigations were first river weaver which would be bringing the salt out and then canals were developed there then also they start to be developed in the Liverpool area like the Sankey canal for example which is bringing the coal down from the St Helens fields because you needed the coal to refine the salt well the mersey was a meeting point of the two so you started to have refineries being built along the mersey including what is now the salt house which is right next to

the albert dock so that was really the beginnings of it and consequently when the slave trade began i mean there was an infrastructure already there you see which was capitalized upon so so i would say at the end of the 1600s and then the slave trade kicked off in 1700 i'm being stupid but just on the salt thing did they refine salt from seawater no no it was brine that was originally being refined in the cheshire salt fields but the big discovery was rock salt which was around 1670 and that meant they were able to excavate it and bring it out on the barges and move it was the brine that eddie couldn't they had to do that on site

so that was brought up to the mersey coal was brought down you had these little refineries being built yeah they'd extract the salt there from there. And what is it about the slave trade? Is it Mersey, like the ports around the Clyde, Glasgow and Bristol, and the West Country, I suppose, Falmouth? Were they just in the right place geographically to take advantage of this new Atlantic trade? Yeah, I would say so, yeah.

I mean, the geographical position was perfect for the traders at the time, like Bristol as well. But then London was a major port as well, which was on the other traders at the time like Bristol as well but then London was a major port as well which was on the other side of the country so but yeah Liverpool was perfectly placed really I think a lot of factors came together at the same time you had moneyed people who were prepared to get involved in it there was this growing infrastructure as I say the canals were starting to be constructed also the mill towns were starting to be constructed. Also, the mill towns were starting to be constructed around that time as well, you see. So there's a lot more going on in the area,

Hinterland, which they were going to exploit. Right, so that's the thing. I guess people have to remember. So Lancashire, the Hinterland, Lancashire, you've got the coal, as you mentioned, from the coal fields. You've got mill towns popping up all over Lancashire from Manchester all the way north, Preston, your Boltons and

Liverpool just sits in this ideal position does it where it can absorb all of that trade and export it all over the world? Yes Liverpool's role has always been as a port and it was never really a manufacturing base. There were industries there but it functioned primarily as a port. And I think what you may come to later, that really contributed to a demise, really, in the later 20th century. Because it didn't have another recognisable role, really. And Liverpool has got such a kind of reputation, a character, like nowhere else in the UK. What was the nature of Liverpool as it is exploding into one of the most important ports in the world in this period from such humble beginnings?

What do you see of its character, of its architecture, of its governance in that early period? I think there was an astonishing development and expansion that went on in that period, primarily on the profits of traders, of course. Most of the people who were investing in this were traders, slaves to traders, so many of the streets are named named after them which is a contentious issue at the moment whether or not we should get rid of those names but this is where the wealth was being generated from it was these money people the merchants i mean a lot of them became paradoxically philanthropic with the

town where they lived and would put money into public buildings from From like the mid-1700s, you get this increase in buildings such as hospitals and dispensaries and public buildings like the St George's Hall and all those type of buildings, these public buildings. The architectural developments of the town were astonishing. I mean, it's actually got the largest Georgian area of buildings outside of London. And are people from this part of the world? Are they from the Wirral? Are they from West Lancashire? Or is Liverpool attracting people from all over the world?

Is it a city of migrants? Oh, yeah, the latter. Yeah, certainly. It became known as the world in one city, really because of this. You know, I mean, the migrants were coming in all over the place, not just the workforce, but also, you know, the investors as well. So I can't just say it was just Liverpool people who were responsible.

I mean, they were coming from all over the place. It was a cash cow. Let's talk about the docs that are in the news at the moment. Again, just talk to me a bit more about how and when some of those iconic buildings that earned it UNESCO World Heritage status, when were they built? That's difficult to answer because of the very nature of the designation. It takes in around six disperse areas, really, which cover the industrial revolution areas to buildings that were built in the early 1900s. And that's part of the problem that we have now with losing the status.

But to mention well-known buildings, you've got the Pierhead frontage, the liver buildings, for example. It's buildings like that that people think about, I would say, immediately when you talk about this World Heritage status. You just talk about the Three Graces, which are the three buildings that sit on the Pierhead.

And then just upstream of that, you've got the Albert Dock, of course, which is now a major tourist attraction. So I think initially, when you do think of World Heritage, they're the buildings that spring to mind initially, and of course, St. George's Hall. But it's much more than that, you see. It involves the dock complex as well. So as the slave trade is stamped out in the early 19th century, what replaces slaves as a great driver of wealth in Liverpool? The trade actually ended in 1807.

That's when it was abolished. But because of the links that they'd created worldwide, Liverpool seems to have been able to easily adapt itself to capitalise on other trades as well, you see. So they've already got the foot in the door, all these different ports around the world. And there was many more commodities coming in as well. So they were able to carry on

and you hardly saw a dip at all in the profits being brought into the port. So by the mid-19th century, what were Liverpool's greatest exports? Is it textiles? Is there stuff coming into Liverpool as well? Or is it mainly one-, all leaving through Liverpool? It's both. They're still bringing in cargo from all over the world.

But yeah, you've mentioned cotton goods as well. That was a major commodity that was once it's been manufactured, Liverpool is then the natural port to send it out. And the tobacco was still being brought in. Once that trade was legalised, I mean, it continued. So there's massive tobacco warehouses, the sugar refineries. Although these trades were, the actual slave trade was abolished, the actual commodities were still coming in. And what about politically? Did Liverpool develop differently to the rest of the UK? Again, that character, was it a very progressive place

with its populations of black and Irish immigrants, or was it a bastion of Toryism? It was a constant battle between Tories and Whigs, really. I mean, just like we've had sort of conservative Labour now, then it was Tories and Whigs. I wouldn't say that one outdid the other consistently. It was quite a battleground politically throughout the 1800s. There were lots of well-to-do men at the time who were trying to advance the cause of Liverpool. I think it was very inward-looking as well regarding how the port was going to develop in a political sense. It's hard to answer that really.

Listen to Dan Snow's history. We're talking about Liverpool's docks and UNESCO status. More after this. Some things just take too long. A meeting that could have been an email, someone explaining crypto, or switching mobile providers. Except with Fizz. Switching to Fizz is quick and easy. Mobile plans start at $17 a month.

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to you by history hits there are new episodes every week. Talk to me about, there'll be lots of people from different parts of the world who would regard the two cities of Liverpool and Manchester, which are only, what, they're 30 miles apart? How far apart are they? Yeah, about 30 miles, yeah. which are only, what, they're 30 miles apart? How far apart are they? Yeah, about 30 miles, yeah. 30 miles apart, and yet the idea that they would ever be considered as one unit is obviously grotesquely offensive.

And yet the world's first intercity railway linked the two cities. So it's a hinterland question, is it? It's like Liverpool was this great port, Manchester's this extraordinary industrial centre. There is this symbiotic link. Yeah, I mean, I don't think that one couldn't do without the other. Liverpool being seen as the major port, Manchester would benefit from that,

and then vice versa, once the goods are manufactured, then they're coming back to Liverpool again to be exported. But of course, that then creates this massive envy on the part of Manchester. They want this role as a port. They feel they were being ripped off, I think, by dock owners or warehouse owners in Liverpool. And they said, well, why can't we have a port as well?

So by the end of the 1800s, you'd get the idea for the Manchester Ship Canal so they could actually bypass Liverpool there completely. So that envy kind of spurred on this industrial development. Compensiveness. Oh, yeah, definitely, yeah. To go back before that, you'd mentioned the Liverpool to Manchester railway. I know we have the Stockton-Darlington, but we argued this was the first fully functioning railway in the world.

You had a time to table, regular trains, you know, the whole thing, passengers and goods. And that was 1830, as early as that. And that still runs, that line still runs. goods and that was 1830 as early as that and that still runs that line still runs they had to overcome some incredible obstacles to get that railway constructed so clearly they were also benefiting on the lessons learned with the construction of the canals the tunnels that were constructed especially down to the docks when they built the extensions there and of course chat moss which was an amazing feat in fact coincidentally where i am now this is wicksall and wicksall has one of the largest moss areas in the country and the canal actually goes

through it and i'm always minded of chat moss because the way the canal has been constructed here it's actually raised up above their peat bogs that's exactly what they had to do with liverpool to manchester railway where they had to raise it up. It was built on matting. It's still sinking a centimetre a year or something along those lines. But yes, the lessons were learned by the canal construction, so they could then go on and reuse that technology over the construction of the Liverpool to Manchester Railway.

By the 20th century, Liverpool obviously remains such an important port. My grandpa was on a naval ship and watched the Blitz against Liverpool, watched the German bombing of Liverpool, the fires and the docks. I mean, how damaging was that Blitz? Incredibly damaging. Many people don't realise Liverpool was the most bombed city outside of London. It was absolutely devastating for the port and the people, especially the May Blitz. The actual bombings started in August of the previous year,

in 1940, and then escalated during September to December. But the worst of it was in May 1941. There was a particular week during May, and the damage was unbelievable. What Hitler was trying to do, clearly, was disable Liverpool's port, which he never succeeded in doing. Liverpool, we've filmed do, clearly, was disable Liverpool's support, which he never succeeded in doing. Liverpool, we've filmed there, we've done podcasts there, the Western Approaches Museum. He wanted to disable the support, presumably both for trade,

and it became the centre of Britain's effort in the Atlantic to combat the U-boat threat. Of course, yeah. You know, you've been to Western Approaches, you'll know full well what role was being played there. That was moved up from Plymouth by Churchill at the beginning of the war to this bunker just behind the town hall. It's still there. People can go and see it. It's an amazing place. When we're dealing with the Atlantic convoys, it was all being controlled from there. It was the nerve centre of the whole supply route coming into Liverpool at the time. So, yeah, it was essential. That supply route was essential there to keep us going.

It was an unbelievable effort that was being made down there at the time. What was the effect, Mike, of the bombing on the docks, on the people of Liverpool, on the city itself? We'd already become used to it by the time of the major blitz in May. But that's the easy thing to say is we'd become used to it by the time of the major blitz in May. But that's the easy thing to say, everybody had become used to bombing and destruction. By the time we got to May, there'd already been quite a lot of devastation, both in the docks and the housing,

because at the housing, most of the workforce lived right alongside the docks, you see. So it was inevitable that there was going to be destruction with the residential areas too. So people had become, unfortunately, accustomed to it by then. Many people were evacuated then, of course, but a great many weren't. My parents were never evacuated. And I know many others who weren't too.

And those that were evacuated, many of them returned. They'd been evacuated during the period of the so-called phony war. And they thought, well, nothing to happen. We may as well go home. An awful lot of people had returned which didn't help at all so there were many more casualties amongst the youngsters too you see but by the time of the May Blitz the devastation of that week was incredible one of the explosions that went off it was a ship called the Malacand which was in Huskusisson Dock at the time. And it was carrying armaments and explosives

and it took a direct hit and the whole lot went up and it's still regarded as the biggest explosion they'd ever seen, ever heard. It took out part of the overhead railway which ran the length of the dock system at the time. So when you see photographs of it, it's just an absolute mangled mess and you'd wonder how the dock could recover, but they did.

And they were functioning again. All right, not 100%, but they were certainly functioning as a viable port within days, weeks, you know. So that aspect did fail. But the loss of life as well was incredible. There's a great many tragic events that went on where bomb shelters were destroyed and lives lost by people who were in there at the time. It goes on. So many stories from that time. People talk about the spirit of the Blitz as well. This is the sort of line people use all the time, not just in Liverpool, of course, but other places like Bristol, Coventry, Hull and so on.

I'd looked into that a great deal about the spirit of the Blitz. And there's two sides of the story there where there were a lot of people who were prepared not to give up but they were leaving the town, they were getting out which is understandable. People who were waiting for buses and lorries each night and they would take them out and they would go and stay in community centres and barns and all sorts of things until it was all over. It did test the mettle of the people at the time, and they were at the lowest ebb. After the war, compared to the damage to the German bombers, how serious was it just to economic changes,

the changes in British life that led to the decline of Liverpool? I mean, I can remember from my youth, and that was into the 60s, there were still many areas around Liverpool that were just levelled. The rubble had gone, you know, there were bomb sites. These were buildings that were just levelled. The rubble had gone, there were bomb sites. These were buildings that had just been destroyed. And by that stage, they were just empty areas. And these were all over the place. It still hadn't recovered by that stage.

And also, you did start to see the decline of the port, but that decline had started much earlier, I would say. It was probably from the 1920s onwards. And then you had the successive dock strikes of the 60s, people who were desperately trying to hold on to jobs, the pay was awful. And so that decline was already there, I would say, but obviously the war didn't help it, it accelerated it. By the time you get into the 70s, we really see the death of the port, really. I mean, although this is the dock system that died, the other length of the docks, which is about nine miles. But at the north end, we then in the

mid 70s start to move into containerization. We were then sort of battling with these inland ports, the container bases of Leeds and Manchester and Birmingham, and the ports moved there instead. Liverpool then had to reassert itself and a huge container terminal was built at the North End dock. And I believe that that is shifting just as much cargo now as the ports ever did. So in that sense, the port hasn't died. It's just that it's a different way of doing things now. But what it did do is sound the death knell of the system, of the docks.

Obviously, we could do a whole podcast about the cultural history of Liverpool, which we'll do on another occasion, Mike. But while I've got you, before you putter off into the horizon and keep going down that lovely canal, what about the UNESCO argument? Just tell us, to outsiders, what's happened? What's going on? I think it was 2004, I think we got the award, about it being a significant World Heritage Site. But the problem really was not addressed at the time by the actual labelling itself. I mentioned before the sort of disparate area about what this covers. There's actually six areas and they're all different with different needs. Whereas you've got somewhere like the Pyramids or the Taj Mahal, that's clearly a

World Heritage Site. But a place like Liverpool, because you've got different problems to deal with in each of those areas. For example, you've got St. George's Hall, which is fine. You know, that looks fantastic. But it also covers the North Docks, which at the moment is sort of a derelict area. This is a living city. You know, it's evolving. You can't expect the planners just to leave it as a museum piece. It still has to thrive and expand and evolve. So that's the problem.

And this was never kind of written into it, really, as far as I can see, to understand what the needs of Liverpool actually were. If you're going to build a skyscraper in the middle of that Georgianian quarter well that's a binary decision isn't it either you build it or you don't and it clearly a building like that doesn't belong there and so it wouldn't be allowed but when you've got a dock area that's a devastated area it's a derelict area and people are coming along with investments and saying yeah we'll build some nice flats here or i'm not too keen on the massive high-rises. I think they look out of place on the skyline. But Peel Holdings wants to build like a Shanghai, really.

I don't think it looks right, but that's just my opinion. But the point is, there's investment. I suppose we should be glad of the investment that people want to put money in and develop it. But the problem is, it's also going to affect this heritage status, as though we have to preserve every aspect of these docks. Where's the compromise? You've got to find somewhere in between. And I don't think the heritage status helps that really.

It's fine for a tourist angle as well. You know, it's great to be able to put that down as a badge of honour sort of thing. And especially as Liverpool has now become, that is their industry now. The porters or the docks have died so this aspect of tourism is now the industry so when you have that badge of honour that's brilliant but equally we have to live in the modern day as well and I think that's the problem I can see both sides of it you see and it's very difficult and I can understand all the people who are outraged by this. But equally, there's like this collective shrug in Liverpool saying, well, we don't need it, you know. So I can understand both sides of it.

And that's the problem from the World Heritage side. It just seems to be pretty constrictive, really, and doesn't allow for development. But what's worrying is whether people will still ride roughshod over the heritage of the area, you the area and ignore sort of things. What makes it attractive, like the Albert Dock and places like that where we protected it, that's the worry where the authorities will now just say, well, yeah, that's gone now.

We can do what the hell we want. And I think that's worrying a lot of people in Liverpool at the moment. That is very nuanced for you. Thanks, Mike, for sharing that with us. Just lastly, what is it about Liverpool to us outsiders? Why does Liverpool inspire a loyalty almost like no other city in Britain to those who are lucky enough to be born within it? I'm quite biased on that. I think we're a city on our own, really, in the sense that we've obviously got this spirit, this sense of humour. But I don't know. But equally, you've got people who can't stand the place from the outside and look at a lot of its faults. But there's always this fighting spirit amongst Merseyside. You know, it's not just Liverpool, it's on the other side of the world as well. And we've just got this never-say-die attitude

that we'll take the knocks, but we'll get up again and fight back. It's just a great place. It's just a vibrant place to live. Growing up there was great. It was great fun. There was always something going on, the music, the culture, the arts, theatre. It's a centre, a great place, a wondrous place. It is a wondrous place. Thank you very much, Mike, for coming on to tell us all about history. How can people listen to this, get hold of your books,

your many books and follow your work? Am I allowed to plug here as well? Oh, that's great. I wasn't expecting that. I've got a website which is all the W's, roydinhistory.co.uk and you'll find my stuff on there. There's books and there's a lot of free articles on there as well. Check it out, everyone.

Royden, that's R-O-Y-D-E-N, history.co.uk. Thanks very much, Mike. Thanks, Dan. Pleasure. Thank you. All this tradition of ours, our school history, our songs, this part of the history of our episode of Dan Snow's History. I really appreciate listening to this podcast. I love doing these podcasts. It's a highlight of my career.

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