Dan Snow's History Hit - Mao's China, The Berlin Wall and WWII Egypt: Witnessing History with Peter Snow

Episode Date: April 16, 2024

As a foreign correspondent for ITN in the 70s, Peter Snow remembers handing tins of film to strangers on airport runways, hoping they would take it back to Britain to hand over to his colleagues on the other side. It was a tough and thrilling job as a travelling reporter before the internet, and Dan remembers hearing his dad's travel stories as a child - witnessing the Fall of the Berlin Wall, meeting presidents in the West Wing and being given exclusive access to Communist China.In this special episode sponsored by British Airways, Peter joins Dan to share his incredible stories as a witness to some of the most important history of the late 20th century and the adventures that shaped his career as one of Britain's most respected journalists. They also reminisce about the trip that shaped Dan's whole life - the first TV documentary he ever presented about the Battle of El Alamein in Egypt, with Peter.This is a bonus episode of the podcast sponsored by British Airways.Produced by Mariana Des Forges and edited by Dougal Patmore.Enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts. Get a subscription for £1 per month for 3 months with code DANSNOW sign up at https://historyhit/subscription/We'd love to hear from you- what do you want to hear an episode on? You can email the podcast at [e-mail] can take part in our listener survey here.

Hi everybody, welcome to this very special episode of Dan Snow's History Hit. It's brought to you by British Airways. So this episode is about travel, it's about adventure, and I've got the perfect guest who fits the bill. Many of you will know that I have followed in the footsteps of my dad, Peter Snow, who some of you will recognise from Newsnight or his days as diplomatic correspondent for ITN. Doug's been on many times talking about historical events, Kings and Queens, the Battle of Waterloo, but I never really had him on to talk about his career, some of the history that he's witnessed.

Now, I grew up hearing his incredible stories about travelling through Africa and the Middle East and the Americas and Asia. He's witnessed some of those monumental events in 20th century history, from wars in the Middle East to meeting presidents in the West Wing at the White House, to everyday life under Mao in communist China. When I saw him living like that, I also wanted to live like that. I also wanted to travel, to explore, to better understand what was going on in our world, particularly its history. And what I learned, as he learned before me,

nothing beats going somewhere. If you want to understand the past, to walk along the trails built by the Inca across the Andes, to arrive at Machu Picchu and get a sense of the majesty of its setting that was so sacred to the Inca. It's only when you go to the Valley of the Kings and you see those unobtrusive little holes in the cliff, you enter them and realise there's some of the most spectacular engineering and artistic feats of the ancient world, the tombs of the pharaohs of the new kingdom. You cannot get a sense of that unless you're there. Travel is a huge part of my life and I know it'll be the same for many of you listening as well. So what we're going to do in this episode is celebrate the power of travel to impact us as people. For most of us, it's not just a case of getting from one place to another.

We love travel as it exposes us to new cultures, new experiences, new people. I think that's what's made us both so happy and so professionally and personally fulfilled in our lives. In this podcast, I'm going to talk to Dad about his career and his adventures. And we're also going to just reminisce a little bit about a very particular trip and adventure we had together. It was back in 2002 in Egypt when I took a trip that would define my life. It was my first foray into the world of TV presenting. We made a documentary on the Battle of El Alamein for the BBC. It's when I realised this is what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. And it was so wonderful that the person that I shared that experience with was my dad. With enormous pleasure, I give you Peter Snow.

My dad. Enjoy. T-minus 10. Atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima. God save the king. No black-white unity till there is first and black unity. Never to go to war with one another again. And lift off, and the shuttle has cleared the tower. Hi, Dad.

Hello, Will Chap. So I wanted to get you on the podcast because I remember growing up and seeing you galloping all over the world and travelling and having adventures and living a life less ordinary and witnessing lots of history. And I remember thinking, God, I hope I'm lucky enough to do a job that exciting. And I guess, first of all, when you were entering the industry, did the job of the sort of jet hopping diplomatic and foreign correspondent, did that exist yet? Oh, yes, absolutely. I mean, the great thing about journalism

in the days when I first started in 1962 was that you could get around the world. You could cover this. The great thing you didn't have then was the satellite coverage. You couldn't report from New York instances to London. You had to send the film back. So that was the great breakthrough that

occurred with Oprah, Freddie, and his art for a joint. But at the early stages, the great thing you could do was leave on a jet, and you'd be off in Europe in half an hour, and you'd be off in America in five or six hours, and you could report back. But you couldn't, of course, report straight back. It was the great breakthrough that happened halfway through my lifetime. You mentioned you couldn't do it by satellite link. So how did you get the film back? Well, you had to get it back. You had to get it back.

You had to walk on an airplane with a tin can. And, of course, the customs nowadays would say, what's in that tin can? You say, I can't show you in the old days because it's a film that's undeveloped. You can't see it. So in the old days, they'd a film that's that's undeveloped. You can't see it So in the other days they say I would take it through but now we'd never get it through Um, you'd have to have to examine by some big camera or something in the x-ray or something

So it was essential to get the film back as I had once I mean, we're wonderful. Most of Africa forget roses thingswana or somewhere. I had to run onto the airport tarmac There's no customs or anything stupid like that They're custom immigration as well Well the air force over and stop the plane before it left to get the film back after we've the pilots hang on a minute Wait wait, I gotta fill the bell. It's tin can I want to take you home to England ITN ICM And then I saw route the steps and gave it to him. Pilots are always so friendly and marvelous,

and they enjoy a bit of fun. And sometimes you just give cans to people getting on the plane. Yes, you have to trust people. Yes, either you take it back to yourself and it's fine, although you had to get it through the customs security, or yes, you go up to a passenger. Unthinkable nowadays. You go up to a passenger. You say, look, I wonder if you could possibly take this back to London, and you'll find someone

will meet you from ICM or BBC from the airport or another airport. And would you mind taking this back as a piece of film, exciting films, people want to know what's going on in Kenya or whatever it is, please take it back and give it to us here at the airport. And everybody always said, yes, thrilled, Mike, delighted. No problem. You always, the poetry that used to make me learn when I was a kid, you were very romantic. You loved the travel, right? The seeing different cultures and the sort of 19th century poets that would travel around and you wanted to emulate that.

My favourite poem is that wonderful poem Ulysses by Tilesia, where he's traveling around and he's measuring life beyond the stars, beyond the horizon. It's a wonderful poem. You know, I've just come back from China where instantly you've got Wi-Fi and food and comforts and it's all just very easy. Starbucks, coffee, it's very easy. You would have been traveling in the, well, I guess, when did you really become diplomatic correspondent? The 60s? 66. 66. There you go. You would have been going to some pretty rugged places.

Yes, I suppose so. In the Middle East and Far East and some Indian places. Yes, fairly rugged places. And you went to Vietnam. Yes, very much so, yes. I never really got shot at in Vietnam, I have to say. Usually in Vietnam, the coverage of the war was incredibly well and generously policed by the Americans. They would give you a helicopter, they'd fly you up to north of Vietnam, you flew with the jet, you'd get off and then you'd get a helicopter, you'd be flown to the base. So it was very well, very organized.

Did you go to like fire bases and things like that? Yeah, sure. To be honest, I didn't really see a shot fired at Anger. well, very organized. Did you go to like fire bases and things like that? Yeah, sure. To be honest, I didn't really see the shots fired at Enger. You're very lucky. Well, this great thing about journalism being so dangerous, most of the time you don't see shots fired at Enger. Most of the time you are covering just behind the front line. And if you go to the front line, it's probably actually quiet. People

are probably running through the bushes just to sort of impress your camp. But on the whole, you're telling people what's happening without the real excitement of actually seeing stuff. Once the bullets start flying, you'd be a dud. What about Berlin Wall? That was a good one. Well, that was a wonderful story. I went to East Berlin when the Russians were behaving in an extraordinary way. Gorbachev was the chap in charge. And the question was, would they try and stop the East Germans running into West Germany in their cars through Czechoslovakia?

And it was getting very, very tense in East Berlin. And I went in there because the Berlin Wall was there. I had to go through the wall and through the passport control and so on, interview this wonderful civil rights man who said, you know, we hope it's going to be all right, but we're frightened that the Russians might come in and decide to stamp down and reimpose control again. And suddenly into the studio, there was I sitting there, this fascinating, tense and exciting moment.

And in came our reporter, Alenka Frenkel came in with a great bundle in her hands it looks like a baby I was like what's she doing we were live I was interviewing this chap right here and Alenka came in with this bundle in her hands and I sort of tried to indicate that we were live on television to Alenka we were actually live talking to London and she didn't listen she bunged this great bundle down on the table and opened up this blanket. And out popped not a baby or something ridiculous, but the Berlin Wall.

It was the rubble, a great pile of rubble. And she said, it's all coming down. And so enormously exciting moment. We were live on television when we heard that the wall was coming down. And then you went down and joined the party? I went down and joined the party. And I remember being very embarrassed because I was about 40 or 50 or something.

Everybody else was climbing up on the wall and dancing on top of it. So my producer climbed on my back and then climbed up on the wall. And I tried to pull myself up and I failed. I've never been more of a failure in my life than failing to get up on the Berlin Wall and dance. But I finally got someone, two great hefty Germans came and heaved me up and I finally got up there. You always told me that was the first day you felt you were getting old. And so as a result, I often try and pull myself up onto walls. That's right, I'm sure you do. Well, I hope you still do it. I don't know. I tried the other day. It felt a bit difficult.

Your final moment finally goes when you can't put yourself up on the wall. I was really ashamed of myself. I've just come back from China. You had some amazing trips to China, didn't you? Yes. Didn't you watch them all digging a canal? It was a fascinating trip to China in 1972-3 with Douglas Hume, the foreign secretary, who followed Kissinger into China.

Right. So there's a sort of rapprochement taking place. Huge moment taking place when China suddenly opened up after the Cultural Revolution. And we covered all sorts of events in China, marriages, weddings, anything was interesting from China at that stage. People couldn't believe the extraordinary way in which the communist Chinese regime had operated. And one thing I remember, the most dramatic thing of all, I think,

was seeing this canal being dug between Peking and Tianjin. And we just happened to be driving up to Peking. And suddenly, we just looked, and it was like looking at a sort of a film of a Roman legion attacking the barbarians. There were thousands, thousands literally thousands tens of thousands probably of people all over this huge area of this expensive land digging with little baskets and trowels and they were digging the canal and the red flag was everywhere flying and so we got out and we filmed this extraordinary scene and to see the Chinese people in 1972, all these Chinese people digging this canal with their hands. I mean, there was no sign of any machinery. It was all baskets, hands, and they were just digging the stuff out to dig this huge canal right the way down to the sea.

And it was the most fascinating thing I've ever seen. The sheer manpower involved in this thing was extraordinary. So that was exciting. 50 years later, I've just come back from China where I took a high-speed train at 200 miles an hour through that same landscape. Unbelievable. And the other thing, of course, about China, the huge contrast was that Russia was a huge enemy and a threat. And one thing that we were fascinated by was being told

that under here there's a varied shelter. If the likelihood of a Russian attack, we will be able to get down this ladder, open up the floor. Down here they showed us all these huge expenses underground in Peking of sort of eating places and sleeping places where they would go if the Russians attacked. Huge fear of the Russians attacking. And of course now they're great mates. You listened to Dan Snow's History. Don't go anywhere, there's more to come. So let's pull forward now to when I was rowing at Oxford and the BBC rang you up and said,

would you like to make a programme with your son? So we were approached once to do a programme together and you said no. And then the following year, they said it's the 60th anniversary of the Battle of El Alamein, fought in the deserts of Egypt on the Mediterranean coast, west of the deserts of Egypt on the Mediterranean coast, west of Cairo and Alexandria. And it was a key battle, 1942. You've got the Germans who've advanced. They're threatening the Suez Canal. They advance right across North Africa, Rommel, the famous desert fox. And the British hold them at Alamein. And then they counterattack under General Montgomery. And they push the Germans and Italians back. And it ends up the following spring at the end of Axis North Africa. Stunning success.

Churchill said, before Alamein, there were only defeats. After Alamein, there were only victories. Yeah. And I didn't bring any toothpaste. I thought we'd be sharing a bedroom. And then they said, no, the BBC's got a budget to put you in separate hotel rooms. Do you remember that? That's right.

So I had to keep bothering you with toothpaste. to put you in separate hotel rooms. Do you remember that? Yeah, that's right. So I had to keep bothering you with toothpaste. But that first trip, I did think going to Egypt and flying out there and just taking all the gear, it was something just... I was completely smitten at that point. One minute you're in the UK, the next minute you're driving through the desert with a Bedouin guide going through minefields

laid down during the Second World War. But that was that really got you going on covering history, was it? That's wonderful. I'm so glad. The amazing thing was bringing alive the story of that Battle of Elamain, bringing it alive when all one had was sand dunes everywhere. Those programs I did with you were the most exciting things I ever did, I think, because they allowed one to tell in huge detail, using the skills that I had achieved at ITL and the BBC earlier on in my life, to describe on the ground what was actually happening in 1942. I think I enjoyed more than you did, probably. You enjoyed telling the story of the Man in the Trench,

the way in which you have this huge zest and enthusiasm on the air, trying to explain the big picture, where the tanks were, where the left-flanking movement came, or whatever the Italians and Germans were up to and so on. That was what I really enjoyed doing. And the Allemagne story and the Battlefield Britain ones we did after that and the 20th century battlefields that we did later on, we had a huge amount of time on air to explain the detail.

I loved that. I always think in a world of endless images and Google Maps and online instantly accessible archives, you can be forgiven for thinking, oh, you don't need to go anywhere anymore. And what working with you really taught me was that when you land and you open the door of that plane and you walk out, you immediately learn so much, don't you? Just the smell of it, the look of it, the feel of it. Even in the airport, you just get a sense of it, don't you? And that desert of it, the look of it, the feel of it. Even in the airport, you just get a sense of it, don't you?

And that desert in Alamein, no matter how much you read about it, you go there and it's totally featureless. It's a flat, it's like an ice rink. And then,

so you're thinking about the tanks engaging with each other at extraordinary ranges and how actually even the smallest, because we read about these ridges, didn't we?

And it turned out the ridges were a metre high, but they were really important because actually a metre is a lot better than nothing. Right, that's right. And so I've always loved about our job is just going out there and kicking the tyres and seeing it still matters a lot. I remember in Egypt, it was so hot.

We went the worst time of year, didn't we? We went in the summer. The most graphic thing ever is that enormous hat you had. I remember seeing you disappeared beneath this enormous Australian. I was rather pleased with that hat. And then someone invented the internet and social media, and I realised that everyone was taking the piss out of it. So I stopped wearing that hat.

But before the internet, I loved that hat. I thought I looked great in that hat. Oh, you looked, I'm sure you looked, that's wonderful, Dan. Yes, yes. Even when I can see you underneath it. What I loved was getting up. I loved getting up at four in the morning. We'd drive through the dark

and we'd go to some absolutely random point in the desert, which looked exactly like everywhere else in the desert. But we wanted to be at that point because that's where the key thing happened. Like a group of British riflemen got almost surrounded by German, Italian tanks, you know, a place called Snipe. And we wanted to go exactly there.

And when we got there, it looked exactly like the car park outside the hotel. But it didn't matter. Because you were able to, even when you look at this tuft of grass or something in the desert, even when you were there, we were actually at the spot where terrible things happen. And it does bring it alive. It does.

Even if it's a boring bit of desert, it's very, very exciting. And then do you remember, so the sun would come up and the desert would be pink and gold for about an hour and a half. And then the sun would get higher and higher and everything would get whiter and whiter. And then we'd have to stop filming. It was so hot and brutal that we'd stop filming, drive all the way back to the hotel, have a little snooze, and then drive out again in the evening.

And then you'd get that same golden hour at night and the darkness would fall. And we'd inevitably be racing to finish off some piece of the camera. By the time the sun went down, it was always quite hectic. And being very careful to avoid where we were told the mines were. Because you looked at this, as you say, this featureless desert, and actually underneath the damn thing were all these mines completely unexploded still. And street scenes. My first ever experience of filming was in crowded streets in Cairo. The camera would be 100 meters away on a long lens. And they go, OK, Dan, say all that stuff again. And you'd be walking down the street by yourself, talking to yourself about the Second

World War very enthusiastically. And local people just thought, this person is completely insane. And obviously, we had to do it 50 times. So I'd have to go round and round again. And I thought, this is going to be a career that's going to give you a thick skin. If you can do that, you have no embarrassment in life. True. I mean, it's just an absurd thing to do really. You've got to be completely impervious to people saying, what on earth is that bloke doing? You're quite right. But it's great fun and it's very important. And it brings it home to people. It explains it to people. I found that you learn more in about five minutes on a Viking boat, a reconstructed Viking boat, than you do in a lot of time reading about them. You lie in the bottom of this boat. It's damp. It's cold. It's miserable. But you then, you suddenly understand

how Vikings sailed. You know, we flew out to Denmark once and spent a few days on the boat. And we sailed down between Denmark and Sweden. And you couldn't see either of them, but you could see the cloud formations of other land. And the Danish guy was able to say to me that's how Vikings navigated you don't have to see land in order to sort of keep an eye on where it is so you can see Iceland 200 miles you can see the clouds above Iceland for example one of the ways they were able to navigate and you learn that instantly when you're on the boat there it's so great when you travel out to do that and then they gave me some smoked fish that had been smoked with reindeer droppings charming yeah and the best thing about that trip was we broke the piece of wood that connects the steering oar with the hull and we beached the

viking ship in a normal community in denmark walked up the beach went through the tree line at the top of the beach to where there was a big supermarket and we asked permission and we chopped down one of their saplings out of the supermarket car park and used the root system of the saplings to form a new way of connecting the ore that was basically how you you took a sapling and the roots tie around that you push a sapling through a hole in the side of the boat and then the roots tie around the steering oar and then you tie a big knot in the end of the sapling and that's basically how you bolt the steering oar to the side of the boat and then the roots tie around the steering oar and then you tie a big knot in the end of the sapling and that's basically how you bolt the steering oar to the side of the ship and that just being there taught me a huge amount despite the fun of all the work trips i mean our

family holidays they were great weren't they i think we we were very lucky um you stuck us on the sailing boat we traveled over europe from the baltic from st petersburg right the way to croatia over several years. If you get all this travelling at work, why not just chill out at home during the holidays? What was it about just getting out and making sure that we all saw the world? Well, I needed help in the sailing boat for a start. I needed a crew, so that's the main reason.

But no, it was lovely to get you, Chip, seeing the world as well as me. And what a way to see the world. As I've always thought, always said, there is no way to enjoy a beautiful city more than to approach it from the sea. And so the wonders of going up into Venice, into Marseille, into Monaco, Monte Carlo,

from the sea, to have you all enjoying it like I was enjoying it, was a great, great thrill. And the thing about being a dad now that I realise, you have no idea which bit of their childhood they're going to remember. But I hope my kids remember some of the adventures we've done. Marvelous. But the world is our oyster now.

We can go anywhere. And I guess the thing that you taught me, and I'm very grateful because I don't think I'd be here today and doing what I'm doing without you taking me abroad and doing those things with me, is I'm trying to do that with my kids as well. It's amazing seeing them in India or in Morocco and just their eyes wide open, seeing a very different version of the world.

And I hope their little brains are ticking away in there. I'm sure they are. And they're certainly seeing the world. You've done wonders for them. Yeah, I think even if just travelling and seeing the world and meeting lots of people gives you empathy and encourages you to hasten to judgement a bit less. Be a bit more sensitive

understanding, I suppose. Thank you very much for listening to this very special episode of Dan Snow's History. It's brought to you by British Airways. We've obviously spoken a lot in this episode about travel and how it shapes you as a person. If you also believe in the power of travel,

then I've got two pieces of advice for you. First, get up very early in the morning. Nearly everywhere in the world is better at dawn. Before the crowds, before the heat, before the noise. Whether it's a beach, a mountain, a city street or a heritage site, when it's bathed in golden dawn light, it's at its best. And secondly, fly British Airways. In them, you'll find a kindred spirit who has the exact same mindset when it comes to travel. They're passionate about original journeys, which have the power to shape us as people,

which influences everything they do. They know travel is about more than getting from A to B. For British Airways every journey and every passenger is unique. And remember, everywhere you go makes us everything we are. Book your next flight on BA.com.