Dan Snow's History Hit - Marissa Roth, Photojournalist

Episode Date: January 20, 2021

Marissa Roth, Pulitzer Prize winning photojournalist, joins me on the podcast to talk about her pictures of the 1992 LA riots and lifetime of war photography, especially dealing with women in war.

Douglas Adams, the genius behind The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, was a master satirist who cloaked a sharp political edge beneath his absurdist wit. Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth explores the ideas of the man who foresaw the dangers of the digital age and our failing politics with astounding clarity. Hear the recordings that inspired a generation of futurists, entrepreneurs and politicians. Get Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth now at pushkin.fm slash audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold. Hi everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. This is a fun story. On the podcast today we've've got the very brilliant photojournalist, Marissa Roth.

We were filming in the National Army Museum just before Christmas in London, and she was there on business. And she noticed all our film equipment stopped us and wanted to have a chat. And we realised that she was a big deal. So we asked to come on the podcast. She's a photojournalist. She was part of the Los Angeles Times team that won the Pulitzer Prize

for their coverage of the 1992 Los Angeles riots. And she's taken all sorts of extraordinary photographs ever since. You will doubtless have seen some of her images. One particular exhibition that won how many plaudits was Witness to Truth. It was commissioned by the Museum of Tolerance, the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in Los Angeles. It features portraits of Holocaust

survivors. She's very interested in photographing people that have survived trauma, survived conflict, survived war, particularly women. So it was really, really good to get her on the podcast. And it was a very fortuitous meeting on that West London street. If you want to watch the documentary we were producing that day, it was actually on the 100th anniversary of the Unknown Warrior in the National Armed Museum. You can go to History Hit TV.

It's like Netflix for history. It's got hundreds of history documentaries on there. All these podcasts are on there without the commercial, the advert on the front. So if you head over to historyhit.tv, we still have a January sale on, actually. It's still January, folks. It's dragging a little, but it's still January, which does mean that you can get a month for free with the code January. And then three months for 80% off. So just a few cents, a few pence will get you through to, well, I don't know,

four months. I mean, that's through till May. That's through till May for less than the price of a cappuccino. So head over there and do that now, particularly if your teachers, thank you very much, all the teachers, for the feedback on the lockdown learning episodes we're producing. Just did another one with Mark Morris. It will be out on Friday. If you want, people are asking about other resources,

you are, of course, welcome. I encourage you to go to historyhit.tv uh and use that code january and then you can get access to history hit for the cheapest possible deal that we give each year so please head over there and do that in the meantime everyone here's melissa roth enjoy marissa thank you so much coming on the podcast thank you thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you, Dan, for having me. It's a pleasure. I really, really appreciate it.

Let's go right back to the beginning of your extraordinary career. How did you start? How does one find themselves going to the world's most terrible war zones and taking photos there? Well, I just need to sort of clarify one thing, is I didn't actually photograph in the war zones. For me, it was really about telling the other side of war, the women's side. And so I wanted to, you know, photograph in the refugee camps, but I was also really interested to know the aftermath, the consequences. So I never really wanted to be a war photographer

per se. I knew I didn't have that aspect in me. I believe we all have thresholds and I just didn't really want to put myself in front of that kind of extremities, if you will. But I mean, I worked as a photojournalist in LA and covered the riots there and was constantly in the thick of it, photographing gang shootings. I photographed a coup attempt in the Philippines. But, you know, during those times, I discovered more about myself, if you will. And I think as a woman, I was recognizing there was an underreported perspective on war, which was the consequences for war on women. Your photography is so remarkable because it deals with both the direct victims of conflict,

but also those who lose loved ones and whose lives are upended. And the way that you take your portraits feels extraordinarily democratic because whether it's a mother in Illinois with her child's portrait, a lost son, or someone in Cambodia, you treat them all as of course you should, but there's something about your treatment of these women that just emphasises their common humanity. First of all, thank you. Well, I think, I mean, that's really at the heart of it all. No matter who you are, where you come from, what's your ethnicity, your racial background, your geography, you know, at the end of the day,

or at the beginning of the day, human emotions are all the same for everyone. And, you know, I learned a lot from the women who I met and photographed. And it was actually a woman in Northern Ireland, in Londonderry, whose name I'm now forgetting. I can look it up. But she was Protestant, and she had lost her husband who was a police officer to a sniper's bullet. And she was pregnant with their second child. And she said to me, she said, I bet you're finding that women are the same everywhere.

And when she said that it was like a key to the whole project. So, and I, yes, to the whole project. So, and I, yes, I also tried to be democratic when possible to tell multiple sides of a story, let's say coming back to Northern Ireland. So I felt, you know, I wanted to photograph Catholic women, I wanted to photograph Protestant women, certainly my own background and my family's background in relation to the Holocaust, but I felt I also needed to tell another side of the story. So I chose to interview German women who had survived the siege of Berlin. So I've tried again to have a very global, compassionate view

and just be almost like a reteller of the stories. You just avoid the cliche that I always fall into when I'm taking my own little photographs, but which is it's so tempting, it must be so tempting to bring, you know, the geographical context into it and say, look, you know, Vietnam, here we're looking, rice paddy fields. Your portraits of women,

I say that they're stripped of a lot of that so that you see the woman, you don't see the, oh, this is a story, this is a Cambodian woman, This is the one in Derry. Look, there are the walls of Derry. How deliberately do you do that? That's a really interesting question. But I think I've always had a global view. And I don't know where that comes from. I mean, my parents were Hungarian Holocaust refugees, we lost a lot of family in the Holocaust. I came late to their marriage. So I had very mature parents. And I

always felt like I was 40 years old, even when I was born practically. So I think I had a very different worldview, not so small, but much larger, larger in a sense. But again, I think the common emotions, common humanity, for me was the core of the whole project. I mean, it's who I am. It's how I approach every subject, I suppose, whether it's, you know, Hollywood actor, or, you know, a girl who's trying to get out of an LA gang or whatever it is. I try not to fall into the trap of cliches, even if I'm photographing a sunset. I did a book on the Atlantic Ocean and specifically avoided taking beautiful sunset pictures. So maybe I'm a bit allergic to cliches. I don't know so you you and I are at opposite ends I'm at the Instagram hashtag sunset end of the photography spectrum here how important do you

think when you're taking pictures of the Holocaust survivors project now women in women in war what what is what can photography do what are we what are these photographs supposed to achieve well i would say i hope they achieve to teach a bit more about history and the consequences of conflict on women and the fact you know that women are also mothers so it goes down by generations. Women are the ones during and after war, conflict, genocide, they're typically the ones to hold it all together. And then they're also the ones to sort of keep the show on the road. Oftentimes, they don't take care of themselves, you know, in the same way. They heal their physical wounds, but they just, they're so, you know, caught in the act of just surviving and then remaking and rebuilding lives. So, and that was across the board. It didn't matter if it was Vietnam or Cambodia or Bosnia or Jordan, wherever it was.

So I think, I mean, my hope is to show our common humanity, but also it was to give each of these women a voice and a face. And I think it also comes out, what I came to learn over the course of the project was this really was also about one of my grandmothers, my paternal grandmother who was killed in a massacre on the doorstep of her home in Novi Sad in 1942. And I feel in a way I found her through this project. And apparently I'm a lot like her. And so now I can also tell her story. And I can, you know, put her name in print, tell her story and I can, you know, put her name in print, which has been really, really important for me. So it's just so many of these women had never told their story before. I mean,

I met a German woman in Berlin and in 65 years, no one had ever asked her to tell about her experience. And she ended up speaking for six hours. I'm not a psychologist but I knew I just had to let her run and it was like she was downloading 65 years of everything and I couldn't even get an interesting photograph of her because she was like so gone. She was just you you know, unloading. So hopefully in her case, it was an opportunity for her to release. So it's been an amazing project. Land a Viking longship on island shores scramble over the dunes of ancient egypt and avoid the poisoner's cup in renaissance florence each week on echoes of history we uncover the epic stories that inspire assassin's creed we're stepping into feudal j in our special series Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords

and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. Adams, The Ends of the Earth, explores the ideas of the man who foresaw the dangers of the digital age and our failing politics with astounding clarity. Hear the recordings that inspired a generation of futurists, entrepreneurs, and politicians. Get Douglas Adams, The Ends of the Earth, now at pushkin.fm slash audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold. I find it very, very difficult, perhaps as a man,

I find it very difficult talking to women around a genocide, survivors, survivors of violent sexual assault on the battlefield that I've met in camps and other places around the world. How do you deal with that? That you've met some of these, for this project, so many women who have been so hurt in so many ways. How have you, how has that been for you? Honestly, it's taken a toll psychologically and emotionally. I probably have a certain form of trauma acquired PTSD.

But, you know, also again, as a newspaper in LA, I photographed everything that crashed, burned, shook. But I think I inherited also a certain amount of trauma in a sense, just from my own family's history. I mean, my parents never talked about sort of the war. My father never talked about his parents or a grandmother or an uncle who were also killed in that massacre. My mother lost a brother in Hungary. So they, it was like they closed an emotional door when they got to America, you know, everything was beautiful and la la land, but you know, the trauma was always there. So I think, I mean, I've tried to express,

I mean, I think this project is my way of trying to put it in a place that's important as a documentary, you know, record. But, you know, I have my moments. A few years ago, I was almost feeling like I was cracking under the weight of the whole thing. But I did a project over the last five years on the Atlantic Ocean and just photographed the ocean. And it started, it was inspired by my parents who actually met and fell in love on the original Queen Mary sailing to America in October of 1938. And they got there two weeks before Kristallnacht. So I think for me, the ocean became almost a catharsis. And it was all about emotion. And it's a very emotive project. It's like the Atlantic Ocean as an

emotional journey. And in a way that really, I hate to use the word healing, because I think that's almost like a fictitious, simple answer. But it was definitely a way for me to set my own traumas or what I had witnessed and heard in a much more peaceful place. Now the ocean and that work sort of overlays everything. But, you know, it takes a toll, as you know, you can't, you can't unsee things in your mind's eye that you've seen, you can't, you can't detach from the emotions that you've witnessed or experienced, you can try, you know, I mean, I could, you know, obliterate myself with drugs or alcohol, but I choose not to. I choose to process it and try to imbue the emotions, the feelings, it, I think I'm also a peace activist.

I think I became a peace activist when I was like eight or nine years old, growing up, you know, in the in the 60s, with the Vietnam War as the backdrop, all the activism and craziness, the civil rights movement, I was very influenced by the whole peace movement. And so I think in a way, I'm still, that's at the deepest part of my core. So I suppose I'm on a mission. Do you think being a woman has been essential to making this project work, gaining trust, whatever it has taken? it's whatever it has taken? I mean, obviously, I'm not a man. So I can't compare myself in terms of a literal experience. But I would say absolutely. Certainly, one of the first subjects that I photographed were Afghan women refugees in Pakistan, and in 1988. And this was at the end of the war with the Soviet Union. And I went into a couple refugee camps, one in Tal and one in Peshawar. I was on my own, actually. And I just walked into the women's section of the camps. And,

you know, because I was a woman, I had total access. But I think, yeah, I mean, it's probably a comfort thing, a trust thing. But also, I come very, I always say I travel with an open mind and an open heart. And I can't tell you how many incredible hugs I got from some of these women, you know, who we started as strangers, but within five minutes, it was a connection, you know, and often I would share my own family's war history, which, you know, it's a common experience. People want to know that others understand what it feels like. You know, it's not so isolating. I can't let you go before I ask you about one of the many remarkable moments of your career when you won a Pulitzer for your photojournalism in the LA riots that you've already mentioned.

What was that experience like? Was it just another day in the office for you and then you turned up on, because you were an LA resident, right? That was your day job at that point. Yeah. So I'm born and raised in LA, although I never loved it there, but you know, life happens. You know, I graduated from UCLA and I was actually a graphic design major, but I also loved photography and I was a staff photographer on the college newspaper, the Daily Bruin. And I basically just dove headlong into photo journal working for for the LA Times a couple years later. So I would say it wasn't just another day in the office, though we were all, you know, all the photographers were, you know, we were constantly in the thick of it there. LA was really edgy in

those years, still pretty edgy. So again, I was always in South Central photographing gang shootings, or you had to go out and photograph a car crash, or, you know, the September fires, we were all, you know, running off to a fire or, you know, then the ground shakes, and you're in an earthquake. So it was a lot of adrenaline. And it was a lot of like, you just you just did what you knew you had to do. And also, it was kind of fun. You know, I mean, you're just charged. I you had to do. And also it was kind of fun, you know, I mean, you're just charged. I mean, it was exciting and it was a great group of young photographers. The riots were something else though. When the verdict came in on that Wednesday afternoon, I wasn't working that day. And I went into the office the next morning and we, you know, the photo editors sort of dispatch you. And so I got the call, I don't know, around 10 a.m. to go to a particular area. a good friend of mine who was a stringer for the New York times, he basically got beaten up and robbed his cameras were stolen.

And he sort of poured himself into his car bleeding and drove home. And so everybody had that in the back of our minds, you know, that we're actually really vulnerable as well. So I wouldn't say it was a day, you know, normal day at the office, but it was like, I don't know how to say this, a strange thing happened. And it happened a lot of times when I was traveling, but it was almost this mentality of not invincibility, but because you are doing something with a, hopefully, a noble purpose, you know, retelling stories, sharing stories that you're going to be okay or safe or, but I felt very vulnerable during the riots. I mean, I was trying to photograph. And at the same time, I was praying that nobody was going to hit me over the head, you know, and, and, but I think the worst moment for me, which has stayed with me was just watching the riots

which has stayed with me was just watching the riots unfolding um there was a moment so the police i won't go into the background with the police department and a completely crazy police chief who's fomented so much of the aggression but the police were basically trying to be neutral and very passive and so these rioters were like running from one huge grocery store across the street to a huge, like a, like a, I don't know what it was like a drug store. And it was just kind of wild. And then I'm like photographing mothers pushing babies and baby strollers, looting paper towels and Sony Walkmans. And that was actually the worst moment for me, which I carry to today, which I'm extremely concerned about potential violence in America, because of the during, you know, the elections, is witnessing how thin the line is between

civilization and anarchy. I mean, it can blow in a second, and it's hair thin. So that was actually one of the most disquieting experiences because you think we're safe and we're so civilized, but actually it can tip over in a nanosecond. I know there's a few young people that listen to this who are doing media and photojournalism things at college, university. Do you think there will always be a role for

the Marissa Roths, you know, the photojournalists out there? I hope so. And by the way, I still shoot my old 35 year old Nikons with film. So's so, so the whole women in war project from start to finish, I shot with the same cameras, same, same kind of tri-X Kodak tri-X film. So while the, the, the camera models and make and all the super duper stuff is great. At the end of the day, it's still who's holding the camera and what you're thinking and feeling and trying the story that you're trying to tell. So I think a lot of what I would say to those young photographers and potential photojournalists is a photograph is an amalgamation of history.

You're also trying to tell the context of a war conflict episode. You're trying to imbue your own sort of bearing witness. I mean, every photograph has what you choose to leave in it and what you're choosing to leave out. So you're choreographing the experience for the viewer, but also you're the conduit for everything. photograph doesn't exist it's it's a it's a it's a it doesn't exist it's it's air it's light so the photographer is is composing this thing you know with all of these elements so if if you know if your heart's not in it or if your emotions are not in it you're going to feel that or see that the viewer. So I would just say if a young photographer really feels passionate about it, you know, go forth and try to do it, but be careful.

I think there's a lot of young photographers. And even when I was starting off, they would go off to a war zone, you know, dreadfully unprepared, either, you know, in terms of gear or in terms, you know, psychologically or, you know, physically, you know, even if it's not a war zone, but even if you're covering, you know, riots, let's say here in London, you're physically vulnerable, you know, it's, it's, you've got to get out of your head and just remember, you know, you have a body attached and you can die, you can get really badly injured. And also, psychologically, you can die you can get really badly injured and also psychologically you can you can really get get wounded and you have to take care of your heart and soul um you know there are consequences so that i i wouldn't have changed a thing it's been

an it's been an unexpected life and it's been extraordinary. Well, tell us where we can go and see your latest project. So you can see most of my recent projects on my website, marissarothphotography.com. So hopefully I'll be having some exhibitions here in London once the world opens up again. I will tweet out that website. So thank you very much, Marisa, for joining us on the podcast. Dan, thank you so, so much. It's been a pleasure and I wish you well. I hope you enjoyed the podcast. Just before you go, bit of a favour to ask.

I totally understand if you don't want to become a subscriber or pay me any cash money. Makes sense. But if you could just do me a favour, it's for free. Go to iTunes or wherever you get your podcast. If you give it a five-star rating

and give it an absolutely glowing review, purge yourself, give it a glowing review. I'd really appreciate that. It's tough weather, the law of the jungle out there and I need all the fire support I can get. So that will boost it up the charts. It's so tiresome. But if you could do it,

I'd be very, very grateful. Thank you. Douglas Adams, the genius behind The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, was a master satirist who cloaked a sharp political edge beneath his absurdist wit. a satirist who cloaked a sharp political edge beneath his absurdist wit. Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth explores the ideas of the man who foresaw the dangers of the digital age and our failing politics with astounding clarity. Hear the recordings that inspired a generation of futurists, entrepreneurs, and politicians. Get Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth now at pushkin.fm slash audiobooks

or wherever audiobooks are sold.