Dan Snow's History Hit - Migration in Medieval Europe

Episode Date: May 11, 2020

I was delighted to be joined by Miri Rubin of Queen Mary University, London. In a terrific new book, Miri has scooped up a seemingly modern topic - migration - and settled it into the bustling town centres of medieval Europe. We discussed how these cities accommodated a plethora of languages, religions and occupations, and how some urban institutions took great care with the settlement of newcomers, working them into societal fabric to encourage economic growth. And of course, we chatted about how we could learn from our medieval ancestors to provide a fresh thinking on social exclusion in today's world. Subscribe to History Hit and you'll get access to hundreds of history documentaries, as well as every single episode of this podcast from the beginning (400 extra episodes). We're running live podcasts on Zoom, we've got weekly quizzes where you can win prizes, and exclusive subscriber only articles. It's the ultimate history package. Just go to historyhit.tv to subscribe. Use code 'pod1' at checkout for your first month free and the following month for just £/€/$1. 

Hi everybody, welcome to Down to the Notes History. I hope you enjoyed the V-Day commemoration videos on History Hit TV and podcasts on your feed, wherever you get them. It was such an interesting week to be part of it, to go and do some socially distanced filming in London, a new way of marking national occasions, not being able to go closer than two metres to anyone. That was fascinating stuff. But history never stops, everyone. We've got lots of big anniversaries coming up. This week is the 80th anniversary of Winston Churchill coming to power in the UK, the battle for France, the fall of France, Dunkirk coming soon, and the Battle of Britain this summer. We're going to have lots of podcast and programming about those mighty events. As we move into the autumn,

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subscribers. Last week, we had Peter Frankapan. This week, we got Rutka Bregman. Everyone's talking about his new book at the moment. I was lucky enough to see a copy a few months ago. It's as good as everyone's saying. He's coming to talk on the podcast. And if you subscribe to History Hit, you can come in on that chat on the Zoom and ask him questions as well. So if you're not a subscriber, please go to historyhit.tv. Use the code POD1, P-O-D-1. you get a month for free and then you get your first month just one pound euro or dollar worth it to have a chat with the mighty rutger bregman surely and then that email will be landing in your inbox on wednesday about how you join that zoom call in the meantime everybody i've got professor mary rubin on the podcast she's at queen mary

university of london she's talking about the work that she does on migration. It's so interesting. She's got a new book out called Cities of Strangers, and it's about migration in the medieval period. I had so many questions, like how prevalent was it? I mean, how many people migrated? And where are they coming from? Is it just throughout Western Central Europe, or are they coming from further afield? And how were they greeted when they arrived in these places? So it was a very interesting podcast, particularly at the moment, when we're endlessly talking about migration, assimilation and communities. So it was really interesting to have this chat. Remember everyone afterwards, go to History Hit TV and subscribe. In the meantime, here's Mary Rubin.

Mary, welcome to the podcast. It's my pleasure. So you're covering such a vast chunk of history and such a vast chunk of territory. Can I start by asking you what sources have proved most important to you, most valuable? Are you using the records of the authorities, official documents? Are we talking private archives, letters, diaries, things like that? Well, given that it's mostly about what we call the middle ages i mean it's a period mostly between about 1100 and 1550 1600 it is obviously very limited in terms of personal documents like you say diaries and so on but because i'm looking at how cities received newcomers, dealt with strangers. So in a way, I was first attracted to quite official documents.

That is to say, how did town councils or how did monarchs define the rules around the reception of newcomers and new citizens and immigrants and so on? So I started with town statutes. I mean, literally, what did the town fathers, always men, always a sort of elite of communities, how when they deliberated and decided, what is our policy? Particularly in the period of urban growth, which is after about 1100, they gather and they say, look, there's all this potential for economic growth. We need working hands, but we don't want too many. So how did they define the contours of receiving new people? So that is what they tell us in their statutes, in their urban statutes. And as ever, when it comes to urban life, Italy was very, very much to the fore.

There were literally hundreds of sets of statutes that survive going back to the very, very late 11th century even. So there was a lot to start with, but that's not where I ended. Yeah, so much to pick up on there. Can I get going with why exactly is there a burst of economic and demographic growth in the 11th and 12th centuries? What's going on in little old Europe? Yeah, I mean, signs of it are already there, sort of just the other side of the year 1000. But there's no doubt at all that in the 11th and 12th centuries, it really takes off. So like all really, really big events and important events, and also there is no denying of it, it is happening, so that in itself we have to contend with, there are

multiple explanations. And I should also say that it happens in different parts of Europe at slightly different times, that is, Scandinavia and Central Europe are about a century behind than other parts of Europe. And of course, also the Southern Mediterranean, the highly urbanised since old Roman times, you know, what we'd call Italy, Southern France, Spain of today are also leading on this. But the process is a number of issues. But it's very important also that a number of disrupting features have been removed from the European arena. That is to say, after the, what we call the Viking invasions, or the sort of movement of Norsemen into Northwest Europe, which really disrupted the 9th and 10th centuries, we see a period of relative stability in terms of the movements of people.

Yes, we have Normans coming into England across the channel, but in terms of the really big, disruptive movements, that comes to an end. There are various suggestions also that certain technologies, particularly around the use of horsepower, developed that allowed a certain rise in productivity on land. So a number of processes coming together. But what is absolutely clear that after 1000, there's an intensification of trade, an intensification of agrarian production to match what are now the demands of a gently but surely growing population. So these things are happening side by side. Was there a surge of mobility of migration in this period? You know, I always learned as an early modernist that most people until the 19th century lived and died within 30 miles of where they were born. But it used to say actually the world was a lot

more mobile in the medieval period. There was actually a possibility of moving from one jurisdiction to another. Yes, I grew up as a student also with this. I remember one teacher saying that most people until the 19th century did not move beyond five kilometres from their village or whatever. Yes, we have that. So clearly, there are areas where communities are less mobile, where they're separated by mountain ranges, by other inhospitable features of the landscape, or where they develop a sort of economy that's self-sufficient, particularly pastoralists who grow, you know, with their sheep or with their dairy and develop a sort of lifestyle around it. But on the whole, there are so many reasons for Europeans to be moving about. There are reasons

that are actually inscribed in the very contracts, as it were, between landlords and serfs. So we're talking about the majority of populations, probably about 80%, that are truly bound to the land, but several of their own activities necessitate movement. When we think of going to towns, to markets to sell their surplus in order just to buy necessities like salt or occasionally some manufactured goods, we find people going on pilgrimage because that is a fundamental part of the religious culture. It can be quite a local one to a shrine that's maybe 10, 15 miles away, but it can also be a longer distance. Then, of course, already mentioned,

the movement of people as armies, as fighters, as invaders, means that people move. And also, what's really interesting that most of the dynastic kingdoms, you know, England, Denmark, France, from about after 1100 indefinitely by 1200, have become quite ambitious political units. That is to say, there is a certain element of centralisation. The king is expected to provide justice on the one hand, and of course, to collect taxes on the other, or dues of various kinds. That too necessitates the movement of officials. So, the roads were not what they were in the Roman period, although many of the roads are in fact using old Roman roots, and new roads are also being created. But it's really striking in the 11th century, there is evidence of landlords, holders of land, investing in their lands to make communication easier, the building of bridges, the policing

of roads. And so we see that the greater production of foods on estates, which we might consider to be a very traditional part of society and economy, you know, lords and serfs, lords and peasants, in fact, is deeply interested in the possibility of now marketing what is agrarian surplus. So this idea, which is a very sort of Victorian idea about trade and gentility not going hand in hand, is absolutely wrong because it is exactly the landlords, the sort of social elite, who are the most interested in creating the conditions for distribution of the produce of their estates. So they're living in a sort of relationship with towns, with market towns, they're creating towns, they're creators of towns, as much as are monarchs and bishops. So it's an extremely dynamic period. I mean, of course, it's beset with a lot of technological limitations compared to

what we know from modernity. But the outlook is definitely an enterprising one. But of course, there are also still elements, be they religious or social, that are also sort of traditional and stabilising. And really, this period is a sort of struggle around that. That is to say, if you're a serf on the land, and if your family can produce enough food to feed itself, and more perhaps even to sell in a market, why shouldn't you as a young person, you know, move to a town and try life there, which will be freer, which will be maybe more interesting and more exciting. So it's a period in which people are really asking these questions about their possibilities with a much wider array of choices at their disposal.

Are we talking about an area that's bounded here? Is Christendom a meaningful or useful concept? Or are these movements of people extending beyond that? Are they extending to the peoples of the Islamic East and North Africa? Yeah, we have to remember, of course, that there are vast elements of diversity already built into Europe, as it were. If you look at Iberia, we're talking of a peninsula. Some parts are, of course, ruled by Muslim rulers, the South, Andalusia. But even in other parts, there is a vast diversity with Jews, Muslims and Christians living side by side, not only in cities, but also in the countryside, albeit in different proportions. The same also

obtains in southern Italy and Sicily. Think of the diversities of even just the British Isles, right, with the populations of what we would call Scotland today and Ireland and England, with the coming of the Normans, with the coming of the northern people who settled in the 9th and the 10th. So it's a real mixture of peoples. And that can even just, you know, what people look like, what their names are, their traditions, the way they organise family life. It even affects the forms of Christianity. After all, Irish Christianity and, say, English Christianity had very different styles to them. So it's already a quite diverse Europe. And there is the movement

of people, one vast area of movement of people that developed in the very end of the 11th century is, of course, what came to be called Crusades. And you know that is the movement of people in the search or in the name of some sort of Christian ideal, but also for settlement and adventure and the acquisition of land. There are, in the 11th century, a really very buoyant mercantile relationship, which is only made easier once there are strongholds of Christians in the Near East. The movement of Italian merchants into Asia and all that intensifies in the 12th and 13th century. Later on, there'll be quite strong relationships with North Africa and through North Africa deep into sub-Saharan Africa, which results, of course, in the bringing of black African

slaves as well as gold into Europe. So there is a global aspect to the life in Europe, and different regions experience it more or less regularly. So probably the most cosmopolitan in that sense are the cities of Southern Europe. But in terms of, say, access to pepper or ginger, you can buy them in practically every city in what you called Christendom. Now, it's really important also to think about cultural identity and religion here, because the long process of Christianization will continue well into the 13th, 14th century with the Christianization of the Baltic. But it's already a pretty substantially Christian continent, definitely by the year 1000. Around the year 1000, areas we call Poland and Hungary of today have become Christian kingdoms. They obviously have a lot of traditions

that pertain to their pagan past, but nonetheless, their kings are now Christian kings. The prevailing discourse, the way people talk about the world is a Christian one so yes it is possible to talk about Christianity and of course with this development of a sort of Christian identity there are tremendous possibilities for that Bishop of Rome who for so many centuries was rather powerless and frustrated that is the Pope to even imagine a whole new role for the papacy. And that really happens in the 11th century with what is sometimes called papal reform, suggesting ways in which the papacy can actually be quite relevant, you know, from across Europe, from Krakow to Cambridge, from Lund to Livorno, for everyone, even if he does not have tanks, as it were. That is to say

that there is a sort of cultural and ethical role that a central figure leading Christianity can offer, which is useful to everyone, including secular rulers. Does that Christian identity you're talking about make it easier for city authorities to welcome migrants, to absorb them into the populations land a viking longship on island shores scramble over the dunes of ancient egypt and avoid the poisoner's cup in renaissance florence each week on echoes of history we uncover the epic stories that inspire assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series, Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and

shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. In these statutes, there is no question at all that the assumption is, when they talk about foreigner or newcomer, forestiere, forensicus, they assume that these are Christians, they assume that they come from not too far away, that they're sort of recognisable, and if they're talking about people who come from a different, totally different region,

they will mention that as well and make provision. But at the very same time, cities and kingdoms, I should say, are also inviting people from further afield with totally different languages and sometimes different religions to settle. And of course, the group par excellence where this religious difference prevails, that's the Jews of Europe. So already, say, in the 11th century, this is extremely evident that there is this movement from southern Europe, from old and well-established Jewish communities, say in the 11th century this is extremely evident that there is this movement from southern Europe from old and well-established Jewish communities say in Italy movement further north into the Holy

Roman Empire into the cities of the Rhineland often invited by bishops to come and settle with very particular fiscal and economic tasks in mind for them that is is, the Jews, or in other places, the Lombards, Italian financiers and merchants, they're invited for a particular task. There's something that they need to do, which is good for the common weal, for the common good. For example, the bishops in the Rhineland are very keen to have the Jews there to help develop the already buoyant but with great potential viticulture, the making of wine. It's still an important area of wine production in Germany today. There are tasks to be had, say, in Iberia, the use of Jews for tasks in the royal administration. Jews are invited in large numbers, albeit a little bit

later, into Central European cities, to Prague, to Buda, as what are called sort of hospiti. It's something between guest, foreign visitor, in order to settle. And what really is extraordinary about these cities in Central Europe, where they had, you know, very activist kings, was that the kings were willing to give these foreigners, as it were, be they Italian merchants, or merchants from southern France, or indeed Jews, they're willing to give them not just to protect them and allow them to settle. They actually made them into the commercial and urban elite. They gave them such powers of self-governance, of freedom of movement, of freedom of trade, very, very beneficial fiscal arrangements that they literally created almost like a sort of elite that often marginalized local people, Hungarian speakers, or Polish speakers, or Czech speakers, by creating this sort of merchant elite that was largely

German speaking, because most of them came from places in the Holy Roman Empire, in these cities, which is an extraordinary thing, because it's actually privileging these foreigners, which is an extraordinary thing because it's actually privileging these foreigners because of what the crown saw as an absolutely essential role they could play, developing trade and thus obviously yielding income for the crown, but generally lifting the economy. It's really well into the 15th century until indigenous merchants and guildsmen and so on can pull their weight as well. So the issue of difference in a period of growth, people are willing to have foreigners in their midst. Now, it is true, there are notable occasions when there are pogroms, or there is violence against groups of foreign merchants in cities.

But those are the exceptions rather than the rule. Most of the time, those who are in charge, be it a town council or the representatives of the crown, see it as their job to protect these agents of difference. And quite frankly, once a family, be it Jewish or Lombard, is settled for quite a few generations in a given city, even if they still speak their language and they still like to marry amongst each other, Jew to Jew, Italian to Italian, are they really foreigners? Or are they just local Jews or local Lombards? In a sense, this is quite interesting to reflect on how you can be both utterly settled as a group of difference, yet also retain certain aspects of difference,

like your religion or like your language or like your habits in prayer. So, for example, if we look at a city like Venice that has a lot of German traders, they have their own institutions, they have their own chapels where they like to pray together. And this aspect of difference, we don't have to see it necessarily as a form of marginalisation or so on. People, given the chance, will want to maintain certain aspects of their traditions, even if they have a good reason to live in another place. It's so difficult to talk about this without my 21st century head on. It's all so familiar. of their traditions, even if they have a good reason to live in another place. It's so difficult to talk about this without my 21st century head on. It's all so familiar. Is there a suggestion that these groups are vulnerable because they're introduced by the elite, but they're potentially very unpopular with fellow subjects? They're dependent on elite favour? Absolutely right. That's the thing. Even before times turned bad, and particularly

after times turned bad. And this also goes back to your question about the issue of Christian identity, because it's all very well for the crown, say, of the kings of England, wanting to have their Jews who fulfil important functions, who are reliable because they're so dependent. You see, that's the beauty for the rollers of the relationship with dependent groups, that they secure the legal protection, the protection for their person and their properties, and therefore it's very convenient because these are the most loyal of then subjects, of course. There is in the Jewish tradition going back to late antiquity this prayer it's a prayer where Jews always pray for the local ruler

whoever the ruler is still are for Queen Elizabeth II because that ruler as it were is always how a social peace is maintained so to go back to the question, that is very true. So the rulers may wish to bring in Jews, but of course, at the very same time, you've got preachers, you've got a religious culture that actually has its moments of deep anti-Judaism. And actually, the Christian Holy Week was always a really, really dangerous time, because this and the build-up to Easter, of course, is the most, it's a time when Christians experience the most intense preaching, a lot of processions and prayers and public activities that remind of the crucifixion, after all, tomorrow is Good Friday, where all of a sudden, you know, that

difference between those Jews in the past and the Jews in the present, some people can really whip that up into a thing that means that Holy Week was a very dangerous time for Jews in the streets of European cities, in which other times they may totally live in peace. It's a sort of a very, very fragile time. And most of the nasty accusations of ritual murder and all these sort of absolute horrific libels were actually imputed to Jews in Holy Week. So the discourse of order, of law, of rule, which allows the settlement of groups of difference, obviously, when it comes to religious difference, it's very tricky in moments when religious discourse seems to sort of eat away at the idea of the common good. And this relationship between crown and Jews is an extremely dangerous one for the Jews. Obviously, it's the basis of all the benefits that they have,

and it protects them. But very often, it will be used by enemies of the crown in order to express opposition to the crown. A wonderful, terrible example in 1190 in York, for example, when it's actually the sheriff who tries to protect the local Jews, and they all gather for protection from groups that have come out from outside York of indebted knights who came on the rampage, and the local sheriff tries to protect them, and he actually protects them in Clifford's Tower in royal fortification. But of course, that makes it all the easier for all of them to be destroyed. So throughout Europe and also into modernity,

this idea that the venal crown, the grasping, money-grabbing ruler who just wants to tax, tax, tax, will ignore terrible iniquities, as it were, that the Jews are committing against Christian subjects just because they favour their Jews. So it's an extremely dangerous relationship with authorities, both protective and giving the absolute necessary underpinning for Jewish existence, but also in as much as rulers are often opposed and resented, the Jews become the sort of lightning rod for that. Let's quickly talk about the elephant in

the room here, because there's such powerful modern resonances. We've seen with Trumpism, we've seen with Brexit, and other movements throughout Europe, there's a narrative that immigrants suit the needs of an urban liberal elite, but the cost is disproportionately borne by ordinary working people who see pressure on wages, pressure on housing, and competition for government services like health, social services, and education. There is definitely a discourse of blame against newcomers, a sort of generalized one, and sometimes it's a very specific one. That is to say, the guilds in cities, say, of southern

Germany in the 14th and 15th centuries. There's a real campaign to try and literally work out the expulsion of the Jews from cities because it is competition. It is competition within fields that particularly in the later Middle Ages and after the great refiguring of the economy after the Black Death, the pie is smaller, there's less to go around, and issues of competition are very acute. But it's not just around Jews. It's, for example, in the Central European cities already mentioned. So like in Buda, there's competition between indigenous Hungarian Magyar people, artisans,

and the elite of German merchants or German-speaking merchants. of German merchants or German-speaking merchants. So this discourse against relative newcomers is part and parcel of a sort of sense of acute, acute competition. But of course, you can't get rid of competitors who are local and Christian and familiar in some ways. So it's always, you can develop an argument far more easily against foreigners who have arrived. And there's a very strong discourse against Lombards. And there's also an expulsion of Lombards, that is, a northern Italian, bankers, merchants as well in this period. And it goes even deeper. All sorts of groups are victimized like beggars.

What is a beggar? A poor person who works hand to mouth. That is a beggar. But there's a whole discourse against begging, very, very intense. And you can see also how this goes against, as it were, the charitable principles of Christianity that are also taught in churches. I did definitely hear very, very familiar echoes because when I was reading in the statutes, because when a person joins a city or joins a town,

very often there's a sort of tax holiday while they're settling and while they're building a home and setting up a business. It's perceived that, you know, if you want to attract people, you have to give them some sort of sweetener. And often the tax burden is graduated. It begins after five years or 10 years or 12 years. Different cities name different periods. And so you do hear this complaint that, oh, you know, newcomers, foreigners, they don't pay their share of taxes, this sort of thing. And just as in our days, and you mentioned Trump, but there are so many others all too familiar in this country, although mercifully, we don't hear their voices very much these days, just now, is this thing about, you know, somehow they get a break where we don't. And it makes absolutely

no sense. But for this to prevail as a form of public discourse, you have to have people who will sell this. Now, the people who develop this discourse, they're usually not the hard working artisan or the hard pressed servant. It is actually people who ought this discourse, they're usually not the hardworking artisan or the hard-pressed servant. It is actually people who ought to know better. That is to say, it is people like preachers, it is chroniclers, it is people who have the voice in the public domain and who spout these sort of views for political reasons, for reasons of personal resentment or whatever motivates such people. And then when it's out there, it's very difficult to stop. And we've just lived through three years of that. We see how it develops. Our statements that have very little purchase in the reality

and in the facts of day-to-day life, and anyone who really knows would tell you so, nonetheless, can be developed, made public, made known very, very widely, and very, very deeply felt as well. Now, when it's particularly a city or a country where there is a sense in which government is failing, where there's war, where the prices of food are unstable, where malefactors get unpunished, when there is a sense that central government is not working for you, to use a phrase from our modernity, then of course there's even more potential for these trumped-up type of easy and pat statements to take root. I think the parallel with our period, although we don't know so much as we do about now, we don't have so much of vastness of information, but I do think the structure of the analysis is actually very valid. And it does echo.

And as I was writing my book, I was well aware of that. Miri, this has been such a wonderful conversation. It's such a powerful piece of history to be talking about today. Well done on a huge bit of scholarship. Tell everyone the name of the book. Cities of Strangers Making Lives in Medieval Europe. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Miri. Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you. scholarship tell everyone the name of the book cities of strangers making lives in medieval europe thank you so much coming on the podcast mary thank you my pleasure thank you hi everyone it's me dan snow just a quick request it's so annoying and i hate it when other podcasts do this but now i'm doing it i hate myself please please go on to itunes wherever you get your podcasts and give us five five-star rating and a review. It really helps

basically boost up the chart, which is good. And then more people listen, which is nice. So if you could do that, I'd be very grateful. I understand if you don't subscribe to my TV channel, I understand if you don't buy my calendar, but this is free. Come on, do me a favor. Thanks. you